1113:" used by a Catholic French traveller in the Levant is, imho, best translated by "Greek Orthodox" because this is what English speakers and locals use today for this community, without any prejudice as in the original per your own analysis. Also, all the quotes we are currently discussing are in pieces of text that are neither about Guérin himself, about religion nor about the 1870s, but about the demographic history of Palestinian and Lebanese villages, next to other traveller accounts or census. Therefore there is absolutely no need to place any specific mention about the Orthodox being "schismatic". Lastly, re: "
345:
65:
1764:, where the definite article is occasionally used in English. Google hits are not a particularly useful measurement here as searches for "the Veneto" or "the France" will also turn up pages using "the Veneto region", "The France Show" etc., which don't support the idea that the phrase being searched for is in common use. –
1689:
1685:
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1354:
What makes you write that Guérin doesn't 'equate "Greek
Orthodox" and "Schismatic Greek"'? In the cultural and national context in which he writes, there would be no doubt whatsoever that these terms are synonymous. The notions of "great confusion in terminology" in your abstract refers to such terms
1089:
use that expression a lot, describing the inhabitants in various places in then
Palestine in the 19th century. Those descriptions are often quoted verbatim into the articles about theses places. Im not sure wheter "Schismatic Greek" is considered pejorative today, but back then it surely wasn't. So
1332:
Well, we can surely agree with the above 1913 text that "...these distinctions have not been, and are not, even now, always observed that a great confusion has arisen in the terminology of those who write or speak of the
Eastern (Oriental) Churches and of the Greek Church." However, that 1913 text
1104:
Part of the trouble is that Guérin's original text is in French. You must respect word for word text that you cite if it is either Guérin's original French or a translation made by someone else, but if we translate it ourselves, the best practice is to replace an expression in the original language
1306:
etc. Note also the use of the word "conversion" in the extract: I am not sure if it is a transcription error of the
Freudian type, as I would have expected the word "conversation" instead in this sentence, or if the author actually thinks that the only purpose one would have of interacting with
1697:
1375:
Kefr Yasif renferme 600 habitants, parmi lesquels 100 tout au plus sont
Musulmans ; les autres appartiennent à la religion grecque schismatique. Ces derniers ont une église qui date de cent quarante ans et dans l'intérieur de laquelle quelques tableaux passables, qui ornent
1333:
equated "Greek
Orthodox" and "Schismatic Greek"...and that is something Guérin (writing between 1863 and 1875) didn't do. So this doesn't add up. Again, I suggest we just delete the redir, and just keep Guérin's original expressions ("Grecs schismatiques", etc),
1090:
therefor I am agains deleting it. (It would be like replacing all instances of "negro" in a 19th century
American texts with "Afro American": just unhistoric.) But to repeat: which of the eastern Greek churches it should redirect to, well, I am frankly not sure,
1355:
as "Greek" or "Eastern", certainly not "schismatic". If you mean that Guérin does not use the word "Orthodox", it is precisely because he wouldn't use the word for a group his fellows considered, at that time, heterodox. He therefore uses the word "
1033:
All "Schismatic Greeks" occurences I found on Ggl are in 19th-century publications written from a
Catholic POV, or a Catholic context. In this era, there would have been no ambiguity that it would refer to Orthodoxy. See for instance its use in the
1139:, to be exact. And Samarie 2 was mostly about the northern West Bank: not the area where there were most Christians, (they were typically further north, in Galilee, or southern Lebanon). Also, lots of writers have translated Guérin to English: eg
1003:, though not quite per nom. I don't think this is suggesting all of Greek Orthodoxy as schismatic. Why would it be pointing at a specific church then? But various Greek churches can be considered schismatic, from various points of view (e.g.,
502:. The current target explains the naming situation and has links to the African campus should that be what someone wants (although I'm not sure how plausible that is because I don't see evidence that the African campus is known
183:
1778:
That was my argument: there is no evidence that "the Veneto" is particularly used and is basically a mistake, as "the France" would be. Moreover, "the Veneto" is currently an orphan link and could be easily deleted.
1810:: My argument was exactly the opposite. Google is such a bad indicator in this context that there are hits also for "The Veneto" and "The France". "The Veneto" is wrong and unreasonable as much as "The France". --
1516:
This part I agree with. I tried to find a better target but edited too quick for some of the villages that are indeed in the West Bank. I started to correct these edits, they must be unsaved in a tab somewhere.
1159:. From my (faulty!) impression, the writers of the day used "Greek Orthodox" to indicate those who were under the main Greek Orthodox Church, while "Grecs schismatiques" was used about the "splinter" groups,
1314:
is in order, as the terms have fallen out of use and, even in the 19th and early 20th centuries, would have been showing a very strong
Catholic-centered POV, clearly acknowledged in the above extract: "
430:
39:
34:
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1062:" for the Greek Catholics, a.k.a. Melkites. Nobody would ever translate these terms today by "Schismatic Greeks", and I corrected some if not all of these occurences as poor translations.
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1793:
No, yours was the complete opposite argument: you argued that Google results are useful for determining whether this redirect should be kept, whereas I argued that they're useless. –
1199:
I believe this is an editorial discussion (and a quality one), maybe this RfD page is not the right venue. There is no doubt whatsoever that, in that time and from Guérin's POV, "
1035:
1019:, who are affiliated with the Catholic, not Orthodox, Church. Not that I'm recommending we point there—it's just further evidence of how there's no good place for this. --
1249:
The term
Schismatic Greek Church is synonymous with the above; nearly everybody uses it, but it is at times inexpedient to do so, if one would avoid wounding the feelings
1207:" with Muslims and Catholics, so what you call "splinter groups" from the Greek Orthodox, i.e. essentially Melkites, are described by Guérin as Catholics (he even uses "
1050:
All instances in Knowledge (XXG) are actually taken from the 1874 travel account in Palestine by Victor Guérin, a Catholic, of which the original is in French and found
1648:
of this redirect because it is unreasonable and highly redundant. It has been seldom used and it is currently orphan. I am aware of the existance of redirects such as
1299:
645:
There is no evidence this is a legitimate alternative name for the Anaheim Ducks. Search results are scant and unhelpful, and it's not mentioned at the target. --
1660:: they also look redundant to me, but at least the "the United States" is a common and correct expression. Consistently with what I am proposing, we do not have
1007:, who are broken off from mainstream Orthodoxy). So the problem is that this is just too vague, though the non-neutrality certainly adds to that. Interestingly,
741:. A Google search for the term returns only hits for a design applied to socks and other novelty products. I don't think this redirect is useful to any target. —
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he also divide it into Grecs schismatiques, and Grec unites. And Conder and Kitchener has translated that directly. So clearly there is a division between
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The relation of Catholics with Eastern Churches is quite different now, and very different language would be used today, as shown in the 1964
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that would be widely understood by the author's contemporaries by an expression in English that would be widely understood today carrying
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The name United States International University doesn't appear in the target article. And Google's first suggestions are for
1203:" refers to Eastern/Greek Orthodox. To support this, consider that 1°) in his village population descriptions he contrasts "
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to refer to Eastern Orthodox is actually pejorative, obsolete or at least very old-fashioned, and is not even mentioned on
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1426:, there Guérin writes that the population is Grecs schismatiques, and Grec unites (in addition to Muslims.) About
1240:. They claim to be a unit and to have the same body of doctrine, which they say was that of the primitive Church.
257:
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in his 1875 account of his visit to the town, it was then inhabited by 10,000 Muslims, 400 "Schismatic Greeks" (
1181:. I suggest that if none of us are 100% sure what Guérin meant, then we should leave it at "Schismatic Greek",
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Old-fashioned Catholics of the time would actually probably have considered kind to call their contemporaries
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498:. The nominator's rationale is incorrect, the term is mentioned several times at the article, including:
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However, by a polite fiction, educated Catholics give them the name of Orthodox which they have usurped.
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This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on September 26, 2018.
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1684:, etc. So why should we have "The Veneto"? One thing people usually check is Google hits: there are
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returns only 3 occurences in 488 pages. Even though OCR may be unperfect, this is far from "a lot".
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It took me a long time to figure what would be the rationale for these redirects. Using the term
859:. The consensus seems to be that there isn't established usage of the term "Schismatic Greek" in
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Knowledge (XXG):Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 October 6#National Library of Northern Ireland
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1739:"The Veneto" does seem to have some use, including a few times in the article itself (eg:
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And if so, you have just gone and changed the religious affiliation of the people of, say
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in 1968, the school's name was changed to United States International University
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As a matter of fact, the orthodoxy of these Churches is what we call heterodoxy
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of the phrase refer to descriptions of Middle Eastern communities written by
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1359:" instead, as a euphemism. Consider for instance this abstract (found here:
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it is at times inexpedient to , if one would avoid wounding the feelings...
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Jerusalem meeting which resumed relationship between the two Churches, the
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects.
1367:. Vol. Troisième partie - Descrption de la Galilée - tome II. 1880. p. 4.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects.
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in the 19th century. What he called "Schismatic Greeks" are apparently
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
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Despcription géographique, historique et archéologique de la Palestine
1310:
Af far as the discussed redirects are concerned, I still believe that
1236:, designates, without distinction of speech, or race, or nationality,
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
293:, none of these topics have any affinity with the Spanish language. --
1609:
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deleting the redirects (note to closer: we seem to all agree on that)
1135:
Well, that is only 1 (out of 7) books Guérin wrote about the region,
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all the existing Churches of the Byzantine Rite, separated from Rome
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quote (and translate him) extensively in their 3 volume 1880s
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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now goes around changing the Guerin division from Catholics to
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
1760:
per Tavix. Veneto seems to be one of those places, like (the)
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in one abstract) and 2°) the following extract from the 1913
1038:. This usage became pejorative with the advent of ecumenism.
1219:, which has a similar if not identical POV, in its article
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Orthodox Greek Church, or even simply the Orthodox Church
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1085:, well, that I am completely open to. The thing is:
1570:). No further edits should be made to this section.
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574:). No further edits should be made to this section.
381:). No further edits should be made to this section.
101:). No further edits should be made to this section.
506:as "United States International University"). --
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1081:I think we should have the redirection, but to
1058:" for the Greek Orthodox and, insterestingly, "
461:United States International University Africa
455:United States International University Africa
8:
792:not sure why I created this in first place.
1300:Catholic–Orthodox Joint Declaration of 1965
167:Unión de Repúblicas Socialistas Soviéticas
1487:. This is at least partly rubbish: the
1307:Orthodox schismatics is to convert them.
1262:"Greek Church § I. Explanation Of Terms"
1221:"Greek Church § I. Explanation Of Terms"
18:Knowledge (XXG):Redirects for discussion
1438:(or, at least, it was so at the time),
1115:Victor Guérin use that expression a lot
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414:United States International University
358:United States International University
1048:, a much worse offence in their eyes.
7:
973:. Any way, I doubt that "Schismatic
59:National Library of Northern Ireland
1686:1,130,000 results for "the veneto"
1481:Lebanese Greek Orthodox Christians
1404:), 40 Catholics and 10 Protestants
1117:", looking for "schismatiques" in
924:Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem
884:Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem
28:
1576:The result of the discussion was
1137:User:Huldra/Guerin#1875_Samarie_2
855:The result of the discussion was
580:The result of the discussion was
387:The result of the discussion was
127:Historia de bulgaria (cronología)
107:The result of the discussion was
78:Historia de bulgaria (cronología)
1491:never had anything to do on the
698:Why would that be reasonable? --
419:Alliant International University
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1820:12:44, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
1803:12:14, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
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1718:- the article is useless, per
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1:
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132:Timeline of Bulgarian history
1361:"Chapitre 53 - Kefr Yasif".
1698:13,300,000 for "the canada"
1595:11:58, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
1495:, Please undo your change.
1448:23:45, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
1416:10:09, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
1157:Survey of Western Palestine
1143:use him extensively in his
871:15:02, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
765:could be appropriate then.
406:04:02, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
119:14:59, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
1854:
1694:3,720,000 for "the france"
1489:Catholic Church in Lebanon
1477:Catholic Church in Lebanon
1036:1913 Catholic Encyclopedia
761:Well then retargetting to
1690:2,060,000 for "the Italy"
1380:, sont, m'a-t-on dit, un
1213:recently converted Greeks
1209:Grecs récemment convertis
1145:The Manasseh Hill Country
1109:. Therefore 1874 French "
1060:Grecs récemment convertis
1835:Please do not modify it.
1559:Please do not modify it.
1538:Please do not modify it.
1479:and schismatic Greek to
838:Please do not modify it.
817:Please do not modify it.
563:Please do not modify it.
542:Please do not modify it.
370:Please do not modify it.
339:Non-existent user rights
330:Please do not modify it.
90:Please do not modify it.
1808:User:Arms & Hearts
1387:
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1005:Greek Old Calendarists
790:Happy to delete per G7
247:Republica de finlandia
1267:Catholic Encyclopedia
1217:Catholic Encyclopedia
712:Because ducks quack.
667:would be reasonable.
1304:Balamand declaration
1583:(non-admin closure)
1205:Grecs schismatiques
1201:Grecs schismatiques
1111:Grecs schismatiques
1056:Grecs schismatiques
394:(non-admin closure)
1658:The European Union
1654:The United Kingdom
606:Quacky McQuackface
551:Quacky McQuackface
493:R from former name
1795:Arms & Hearts
1766:Arms & Hearts
1650:The United States
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1473:User:Place Clichy
1390:I suggest indeed
1119:the original text
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1429:
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1399:
1398:Victor Guérin
1396:According to
1393:
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1371:
1366:
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1358:
1357:schismatiques
1351:
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1087:Victor Guérin
1084:
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1047:
1043:
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1013:Victor Guérin
1010:
1006:
1002:
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611:Anaheim Ducks
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523:per Tavix. –
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56:
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41:
36:
23:
19:
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1757:
1746:
1736:
1724:Place Clichy
1715:
1645:
1643:
1630:
1624:
1618:
1578:no consensus
1577:
1558:
1555:
1551:
1537:
1535:
1519:Place Clichy
1468:
1435:
1431:
1408:Place Clichy
1391:
1381:
1378:l'iconostase
1377:
1374:
1373:
1363:
1356:
1320:Place Clichy
1311:
1265:
1255:is aimed at.
1252:
1248:
1245:
1241:
1237:
1233:
1231:
1224:
1212:
1208:
1204:
1200:
1182:
1156:
1144:
1123:Place Clichy
1110:
1106:
1082:
1078:
1064:Place Clichy
1059:
1055:
1045:
1041:
1000:
987:Place Clichy
978:
974:
962:
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957:
944:
938:
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904:
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892:
860:
856:
837:
834:
830:
816:
814:
799:
794:
789:
772:
767:
742:
738:
719:
714:
701:
674:
669:
660:
648:
644:
631:
625:
619:
591:
581:
562:
559:
555:
541:
539:
520:
509:
503:
485:
471:
466:
459:Retarget to
458:
452:
439:
433:
427:
388:
369:
366:
362:
348:
342:
329:
327:
308:
296:
285:
272:
266:
260:
232:
226:
220:
212:Soviet Union
192:
186:
180:
172:Soviet Union
152:
146:
140:
108:
89:
86:
82:
68:
62:
54:
50:September 26
49:
40:September 27
35:September 25
1720:WP:DEFINITE
1700:and so on.
1688:, but also
1674:The Germany
1302:, the 1993
1292:Athenagoras
1185:any redir.
1141:Adam Zertal
1044:instead of
983:WP:RNEUTRAL
287:WP:RFOREIGN
1670:The Canada
1666:The France
1604:The Veneto
1547:The Veneto
1253:conversion
1179:Kafr Malik
1042:schismatic
967:schismatic
963:schismatic
694:Joseph2302
309:Delete all
1682:The Japan
1662:The Italy
1591:pingó mió
1587:Galobtter
1564:talk page
1493:West Bank
1424:Marjayoun
1232:The term
1227:is mine):
1153:Kitchener
843:talk page
568:talk page
375:talk page
313:Thryduulf
311:per nom.
291:Lasita169
95:talk page
1646:deletion
1566:or in a
1312:Deletion
1225:emphasis
1211:", i.e.
1147:series,
1046:heretics
1009:all uses
845:or in a
661:Retarget
570:or in a
398:feminist
377:or in a
349:Relisted
97:or in a
69:Relisted
20: |
1762:Ukraine
1628:history
1469:Comment
1296:Paul VI
1183:without
1079:Comment
959:Delete.
942:history
902:history
861:English
629:history
437:history
270:history
252:Finland
230:history
190:history
150:history
1812:Checco
1781:Checco
1716:Delete
1702:Checco
1610:Veneto
1512:Huldra
1497:Huldra
1440:Huldra
1436:unites
1434:, and
1350:Huldra
1335:Huldra
1270:(1913)
1187:Huldra
1161:Huldra
1149:Conder
1092:Huldra
1001:Delete
865:Deryck
857:delete
795:Joseph
768:Joseph
744:C.Fred
739:Delete
715:Joseph
670:Joseph
504:solely
467:Joseph
351:, see
113:Deryck
109:delete
71:, see
1743:). --
1634:stats
1622:links
1428:Khiam
1175:Khiam
975:Greek
948:stats
936:links
908:stats
896:links
805:talk)
778:talk)
725:talk)
680:talk)
635:stats
623:links
477:talk)
443:stats
431:links
276:stats
264:links
236:stats
224:links
196:stats
184:links
156:stats
144:links
43:: -->
16:<
1816:talk
1799:talk
1785:talk
1770:talk
1758:Keep
1749:avix
1737:Keep
1728:talk
1706:talk
1656:and
1616:talk
1523:talk
1501:talk
1485:link
1444:talk
1412:talk
1339:talk
1324:talk
1191:talk
1177:and
1165:talk
1151:and
1127:talk
1096:talk
1083:what
1068:talk
1052:here
1025:talk
991:talk
930:talk
890:talk
800:2302
773:2302
763:Sock
749:talk
720:2302
704:avix
675:2302
665:Duck
651:avix
617:talk
594:avix
588:. --
584:per
529:talk
521:Keep
512:avix
488:per
486:Keep
472:2302
425:talk
402:talk
389:keep
317:talk
299:avix
258:talk
218:talk
178:talk
138:talk
32:<
1318:".
1021:BDD
969:or
663:to
22:Log
1818:)
1801:)
1787:)
1779:--
1772:)
1730:)
1722:.
1708:)
1696:,
1692:,
1680:,
1676:,
1672:,
1668:,
1664:,
1652:,
1608:→
1593:)
1580:.
1525:)
1503:)
1483:.
1446:)
1414:)
1406:.
1341:)
1326:)
1264:,
1258:—
1193:)
1167:)
1129:)
1098:)
1070:)
1027:)
993:)
985:.
922:→
882:→
868:C.
863:.
751:)
609:→
586:G7
531:)
496:}}
490:{{
464:.
417:→
404:)
391:.
319:)
250:→
210:→
170:→
130:→
116:C.
111:.
1814:(
1797:(
1783:(
1768:(
1747:T
1726:(
1704:(
1636:)
1631:·
1625:·
1619:·
1614:(
1589:(
1521:(
1514::
1510:@
1499:(
1442:(
1410:(
1384:.
1352::
1348:@
1337:(
1322:(
1294:-
1223:(
1189:(
1163:(
1125:(
1094:(
1066:(
1023:(
989:(
950:)
945:·
939:·
933:·
928:(
910:)
905:·
899:·
893:·
888:(
803:(
776:(
747:(
723:(
702:T
696::
692:@
678:(
649:T
637:)
632:·
626:·
620:·
615:(
592:T
527:(
510:T
475:(
445:)
440:·
434:·
428:·
423:(
400:(
315:(
297:T
278:)
273:·
267:·
261:·
256:(
238:)
233:·
227:·
221:·
216:(
198:)
193:·
187:·
181:·
176:(
158:)
153:·
147:·
141:·
136:(
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