713:
accidentals: why B-flat major is always used and not A-sharp major requires no explanation), could partly result from a historical accident. Why is D-sharp minor so much more uncommon than E-flat minor? (Oddly in book 1 there's one prelude and fugue where the prelude is in E-flat minor while the fugue is in D-sharp minor: any idea why that would be? In book 2 both prelude and fugue are in D-sharp minor). If few works are written in a given key to begin with then that key doesn't acquire a well defined character or "color" and so even fewer composers will choose it and so on. Some 19th c. writers on music attempted to associate adjectives and keys in order to describe the feel of a key and for some keys (presumably for those keys that had been too rarely used to have acquired a definite character) they seem to have been at a loss for words. For example the four keys
233:(though I find this really inexplicable, given that by this time the double sharp was completely standard, and even more strongly because double sharps appear in the finale of the fourth concerto!) Looking at Beethoven piano concerto scores it looks as though he refrains from using double accidentals in the orchestral parts, but not in the piano part. May be composer-dependent though, because I haven't seen a single Mozart(!) work that avoids the double accidental when it is needed.
119:. Some suggested that it was specially composed for that theme song. On the other hand, comments on YouTube identified the music as a 1977 work entitled "Taste of Sorrow". I did some Web searches but I couldn't find any 1977 albums by Paul Mauriat that includes a track with that title. The references I found about "Taste of Sorrow" say it was released in 1983 and the composers were Paul Mauriat and Gérard Gambus.
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844:: G-sharp minor and A-flat minor are described in somewhat similar terms: G-sharp as "très sombre" and, like I said, A-flat as "lugubre, angroissé". But F-sharp major and G-flat major are described in diametrically opposite ways, the first as "rude" (rough) and the other as "doux et calme". Incidentally this list is in the
690:(the key is C-sharp major, with some modulations into the relative minor, but these get written in B-flat minor, complete with an unbelievable torrent of flats and double-flats neutralizing the entire key signature twice over). (Maybe this isn't conclusive, though, because he has no qualms about entering A-sharp
669:
G-flat major has 6 flats, and F-sharp major has 6 sharps. That one does seem to be evenly split. But I think there is a bias towards flats for minor keys especially, because (1) G-sharp, D-sharp, and A-sharp minor will need double sharps even in diatonic passages and (2) G-sharp, D-sharp, and A-sharp
650:
Well, I think you got my point, but that's no reason not to try to drive it home ;-) The difference is that C-sharp and D-flat are roughly at the same place on the familiar/unfamiliar or regular/arcane or unmysterious/esoteric scale while B-flat clearly is somewhere completely different than A-sharp.
624:
figures in the key signatures of B, F-sharp and C-sharp, both major and minor, making 6 in all (taking the accidentally raised leading note into account in the case of B minor). True, the keys involving up to 4 sharps were traditionally far more favoured than those with 5 or more, but the 5-and-ups
889:
The F-sharp/G-flat distance is perhaps a bit psychological as well (raising vs. lowering), and may have made even more sense before equal temperament. I personally like F-sharp major better, as it makes the parallel minor realm less unreadable, and the relative minor still tolerable. Off the top of
685:
minor: B-flat is just that much more common. Also, A-sharp will need E-sharp as dominant, the second-most important note in the scale, when that could be expressed simply as just F! Even Alkan, who was famously rigorous about spelling notes correctly, made an exception specifically to avoid A-sharp
712:
Is C-sharp major so much more common than A-sharp minor generally speaking? There's this example and a few others such as the two prelude and fugue from the 48 but what else besides? In any case the rarity of one enharmonic key over the other (within reason: we're talking keys with no more than 7
518:). At 1710 and clearly using modern Western musical notation, this piece then beats the current record listed on Don Byrd's "Extremes of Conventional Music Notation" site that I linked to above. Contributions are invited, so anyone who wants to can bring this example to his attention...he already
291:
The last two posts confused the heck out of me, until it finally dawned on me that JPGordon was thanking Double sharp for a link provided at the bottom of this question. Occupational hazard of being left-brained, I guess. Note to self: Must become less imperfect and more gestalt-oriented. --
764:
a list of 48 works in C-sharp major. (If you're curious, this collection contains 61 in A-flat minor, 48 in C-sharp major, 10 in C-flat major, and 2 in A-sharp minor.) There's also some works that pass through C-sharp major (even using the key signature): e.g. Liszt's sixth
Hungarian Rhapsody,
602:
tuned in B-flat and E-flat, and a lot of marching music and other brassy music favored these keys (which read as C or G to the trumpet players and alto clarinetists respectively). In German too, the word "ais" (A-sharp) is uttered almost as rarely as "eis"
654:
I'll concede the G-flat point. Perhaps there is a bias toward flats (which I would support arduously as someone who never quite mastered immediate in-the-head transposing when sight-reading non-transposed sheet music to be played on an E-flat instrument).
1019:
651:
The example of orchestral instruments was merely an illustration. B-flat just is a note you encounter early (in your education) and everywhere in music, A-sharp isn't. C-sharp and D-flat lie somewhere in between, and are of roughly equal significance.
961:
This may be two questions but here goes. Who is the black drummer who plays with rock bands such as Dave
Gilmour, Paul McCartney and who isn't Abe Laboriel? Or if anyone is watching the Jeff Lynne concert on BBC/Proms in the Park, who's the drummer?
902:
major). It's really not commonly used; of course A-sharp minor is still more uncommon. It seems as though A-flat minor is the most-used of the seven-accidental keys, perhaps because its enharmonic requires a double sharp for a diatonic note
1022:
looks like the guy I am seeing when watching some videos of recent Jeff Lynne performances. Being large with dark skin, he's also easy to confuse (at a quick glance) with
Laboriel Jr. Perhaps that's who Tammy is looking at.
445:(SF A321) uses the modern "x"-like symbol on B's and E's repeatedly (see for example p.5 onwards; the top staff is in the soprano clef). However, the tonal context seems to indicate that the intended notes are just B
66:
351:), but (1) that would have been problematic (I can't even see it on my screen, so how can I expect anyone else to?) and (2) for those who could see it, it would be confusing, looking too much like an "x".
848:
Knowledge article. That article mentions that
Berlioz and Gevaert also have such lists in their respective works about orchestration but I'm not familiar with them. You can browse through Lavignac's work
55:
59:
51:
1069:, another African American rock drummer; though I'd not ever seen him play with McCartney, Gilmour, or Lynne. I do think Nanonic has it right; I think the drummer definitely is Hepburn. --
1095:
Yes I think
Donovan Hepburn is the one I was looking at. Thank you all so much. And that's the explanation for what I remembered about McCartney et al - would never have guessed that. --
896:
minor I can think of are that infamous
Scriabin étude (Op. 8 No. 12), the second of Lyapunov's set of transcendental etudes, and Alkan's Op. 33, second movement (which ends in F
440:
542:. I've been on a quest to collect (at least the titles of) all pieces written in this mysterious key, and it's a vanishingly small list. The real mystery, to me, is
721:) is unable to describe in this way are C-sharp major, C-flat major, A-sharp minor and (not A-flat minor which he describes as "lugubre, angoissé" but) D-sharp minor.
248:
Late P.S.: An example in Mozart where the double accidental is avoided (and the note consequently spelt wrongly) can be found in the 2nd movement of the Trio KV 563.
25:
599:
547:
606:
There may be other and hopefully less prosaic reasons, but I do thin that A-sharp's unfamiliarity when compared to B-flat has something to do with it. ---
343:
Never before has my username been this appropriate! :-D I would have liked to have the awesome username 𝄪 (if you can't see it, it's meant to look like
85:
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the
45:
1005:. He's a session musician who has worked with Take That, Olly Murs, Adele, Cheryl Cole, Robbie Williams, Alesha Dixon, James Morrison amongst others.
766:
670:
minor need a key signature change to flats if you're going to move to the parallel major and want to be legible. In major keys the need is less.
583:
Unreferenced guess. Part of the reason might be simply that the base note, B-flat, is such a common note. In German it's even only one letter,
37:
687:
421:
helpfully informs me that it is in bb. 152–3), published in 1914. But the huge gap of over a century between these two seems improbable.
137:
857:. The particular list we're talking about is page 424. The Gevaert and Berlioz works mentioned can also probably be found on the web.
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That explanation works for orchestral instruments, but not at all for the keyboard, which is unbothered by issues of transposition.
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Simply using the note above might also have taken some time to die out – you can find it as late as the slow movement of the
126:
Is the melody of the 痴情劫 theme from the composition "Taste of Sorrow"? (Clips of the 痴情劫 theme song can be found on YouTube.)
695:
213:
preferred an upright cross, and existing practice had been simply to use the note above. Mattheson also wanted to use
554:, which has 2 fewer accidentals, so why bother". But that argument has never been used to stop people writing in
546:
it's considered so mysterious as to be totally ignored by virtually all composers, ever. Even those who composed
86:
17:
182:
is just 2 flat signs. I can easily conclude from this non-sequitur that the double flat is a newer invention.
457:, and are just written this way because there is no key signature: the actual key seems to be, unbelievably,
141:
1048:
550:
hardly ever considered it worthy of a guernsey. Most people dismiss it churlishly with "It's equivalent to
625:
were certainly far from unknown. Except A-sharp minor. Keyboard composers show no general disinterest in
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Just for clarification, you're looking for a drummer who plays with
Gilmour and/or McCartney but is NOT
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1044:
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Instruments added to the symphony orchestra during and after the classical period included a number of
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minor is that it would need double accidentals more frequently than its enharmonic equivalent.
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Ektually, I'd meant to put it on the very bottom and when I noticed it was in the wrong place,
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The reason these questions are so interesting to compare is that while the double sharp
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Thank you: it had the same effect on me when I first found it! :-P You might like
465:
to avoid true double accidentals (e.g. see beat 2 of bar 10 on p.5, where C
381:
Something I'd really like to know, though, is: when was the first use of a
74:
488:(P.S. The piece is in quintuple meter (though it's not clear whether it's
405:, b. 56, LH), published in 1803. The earliest triple flat I know of is in
591:
in German. "b" is the only odd one out. It's never called "hes", nor is
197:
Apparently, they came about at the same time -- with the development of
109:
621:
522:
about this piece, but seems to have missed that it would be a record.)
202:
129:
Who composed the melody for the 痴情劫 theme song and when was it written?
1001:
Donavan
Hepburn was on the drums for Jeff Lynne at Hyde Park and also
761:
927:, and maybe that's another reason why almost nobody ever uses that.
263:
Oh my, I'm now completely absorbed in that "Extremes" site. Thanks.
633:
has one fewer accidental. What is it about 7 sharps that makes
214:
79:
Welcome to the
Knowledge Entertainment Reference Desk Archives
566:. There has be a deeper reason than that. Any clues? --
637:
fair game but A-sharp minor fit only for the dustbin? --
473:
would need to be written if not for the enharmonic flip!).
1047:
along with McCartney and others which could explain them
328:
Oh, so it's all his fault, eh. Yeah, yeah. .... --
132:
Was the melody originally composed for the theme song?
108:The theme song of the 1982 Hong Kong TV series 痴情劫
911:). A-sharp minor would compound this with both F
389:flat? The earliest triple sharp I know of is in
104:Need help identifying a Paul Mauriat composition
217:for the double flat, but it didn't catch on.
8:
548:Music written in all 24 major and minor keys
754:major is definitely much more common than A
562:accidentals than its enharmonic equivalent
159:When was the first use of a double sharp??
765:Schubert's sonata D.960 (II), Haydn's(!)
162:When was the first use of a double flat??
435:Arguably not a modern double sharp, but
49:
36:
461:, but with lots of enharmonic usage of
65:
174:has a special symbol; the double flat
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673:I reckon Sluzzelin is right about B
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629:(7 flats) even though its equiv
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1105:14:05, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
1085:20:10, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
1061:20:09, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
1039:20:07, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
1015:20:03, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
997:19:49, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
972:19:44, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
937:12:56, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
878:10:52, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
833:10:15, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
788:06:01, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
744:17:04, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
708:08:57, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
665:23:55, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
646:23:46, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
616:23:03, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
575:22:45, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
532:14:29, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
483:14:29, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
431:13:53, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
361:14:37, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
337:21:54, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
321:15:44, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
301:19:59, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
286:14:24, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
268:14:08, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
243:13:43, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
222:18:27, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
192:17:46, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
151:Double sharps and double flats
146:16:04, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
115:) was, I believe, composed by
1:
890:my head, the only pieces in D
33:
1065:The other thought I had was
201:. The main proponent of the
719:La musique et les musiciens
258:13:41, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
1121:
276:too, from the same site.
805:major differently from G
409:'s first piano sonata (B
205:double-sharp symbol was
18:Knowledge:Reference desk
1045:Yamaha sponsored artist
419:this wonderful resource
600:transposing intruments
87:current reference desk
1003:Children in Need 2013
316:had already replied.
113:Love with Many Phases
799:: Does he describe F
767:C-sharp minor sonata
595:ever called "bis").
437:Benedetto Marcello
38:Entertainment desk
979:Abe Laboriel, Jr.
876:
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694:for some time in
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407:Nikolai Roslavets
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155:Two questions:
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1051:occasionally.
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587:(English B is
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558:, which has 2
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442:La stravaganza
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211:Leopold Mozart
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122:My questions:
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957:Rock drummers
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772:My guess re D
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717:(in his work
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635:C-sharp major
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556:C-sharp major
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540:A-sharp minor
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1043:He's also a
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929:Double sharp
840:Double sharp
825:Double sharp
817:minor from A
780:Double sharp
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700:Double sharp
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688:Op. 35 No. 9
627:G-flat major
592:
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564:D-flat major
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552:B-flat minor
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524:Double sharp
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475:Double sharp
463:B-flat minor
441:
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423:Double sharp
391:Anton Reicha
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353:Double sharp
278:Double sharp
250:Double sharp
235:Double sharp
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117:Paul Mauriat
112:
107:
99:September 14
94:
78:
67:September 15
46:September 13
184:Georgia guy
679:minor vs A
640:Jack of Oz
603:(E-sharp).
569:Jack of Oz
397:(No. 34; C
331:Jack of Oz
318:--jpgordon
295:Jack of Oz
265:--jpgordon
219:--jpgordon
136:Thanks. --
1097:TammyMoet
964:TammyMoet
885:Basemetal
865:Basemetal
795:Basemetal
731:Basemetal
686:minor in
657:Sluzzelin
608:Sluzzelin
538:Ah, yes,
395:36 fugues
385:sharp? A
56:September
50:<<
860:Contact
811:major? G
726:Contact
231:Concerto
111:(a.k.a.
24: |
22:Archives
20: |
1053:Nanonic
1007:Nanonic
823:minor?
760:minor.
622:A-sharp
229:Emperor
203:saltire
89:pages.
1072:Jayron
1026:Jayron
984:Jayron
769:(III).
762:Here's
696:Op. 33
387:triple
383:triple
981:? --
919:and G
692:major
520:knows
451:and E
69:: -->
63:: -->
62:: -->
44:<
16:<
1101:talk
1057:talk
1011:talk
968:talk
933:talk
872:here
855:here
851:here
829:talk
784:talk
738:here
704:talk
661:talk
612:talk
560:more
528:talk
479:talk
427:talk
357:talk
282:talk
274:this
254:talk
239:talk
188:talk
142:talk
853:or
698:.)
655:---
544:why
503:or
439:'s
393:'s
60:Oct
52:Aug
1103:)
1079:32
1059:)
1033:32
1023:--
1013:)
991:32
970:)
935:)
903:(F
831:)
786:)
706:)
530:)
481:)
429:)
417:;
359:)
284:)
256:)
241:)
209:;
190:)
144:)
58:|
54:|
1099:(
1055:(
1009:(
966:(
931:(
899:♯
893:♯
887::
883:@
842::
838:@
827:(
820:♭
814:♯
808:♭
802:♯
797::
793:@
782:(
775:♯
757:♯
751:♯
748:C
702:(
682:♯
676:♭
593:h
589:h
585:b
526:(
511:2
496:4
477:(
454:♯
448:♯
425:(
355:(
280:(
252:(
237:(
215:β
186:(
140:(
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