1020:, the discussion headed in that direction. There was no Jewish state of any significance from 70 CE to 1948. And full citizenship was rare until the United States was founded, and the revolutionary/Napoleanic changes in Europe. But speaking as a San Francisco area Jew, the Jews were completely free and powerful, and thrived here for 100 years before Israel's independence.
927:
balance of history. Yes, we can find situation, especially in the last 200 years, in a few countries around the world, where Jewish people didn't have it so bad. But on the balance, most societies (even the U.S and U.K. and other
Anglosphere nations) don't have a long history of tolerance and acceptance of Jewish people.
540:. It says (p. 357) that "In March 1866, Montefiore, now a widower of eighty-one, arrived on his sixth visit and could not believe the changes. Finding that the Jews at the Western Wall were exposed not only to the rain but to occasional pelting from the Temple Mount above, he received permission to set up an awning there".
1241:
says that the insane asylum was located at Palama, Kalihi, and that its "incoming director, Mr. Davison, 'already had considerable experience in like cases at the
American Hospital.'" So it looks like they were separate institutions and that Davison worked at the American Hospital before he worked at
1221:
So I have differing sources call a man by the name of Benoni
Richmond Davison Superintendent of the Insane Asylum and Superintendent of the American Marine Hospital at Honolulu. Were both the Hawaiian Insane Asylum and the American Marine Hospital the same place or close together during the 1860s and
1096:
In answer to the question, no the Jews were not stateless, and presumably wandering across
Central Europe like Moses in the wilderness, for some 2,500 years. Simply stating the proposition in this way is to invite the answer that Zionism was a reasonable response to this state of affairs. There is an
974:
I wonder whether the OP meant this, or whether they're talking about their own sovereign homeland, Israel. If that, then yes, the Jewish people as a whole were stateless for around 2,500 years. They had to be content with citizenship of whatever country they were living in, assuming it was afforded
841:
led the Romans to massacre or enslave and uproot much of the Jewish population and to favor members of other ethnic and religious groups in what had been the Jewish homeland. Thereafter, Jews, with the rare exceptions mentioned above, never formed a majority or the dominant group in any society until
491:
Thank you, but who did built the top layers of the
Western Wall? And when, and why? The legend about this relating to Sir Moses Montefiore state that he did this to pervent Arabs from throwing rocks at Jewish worshippers, and is quite wide spread. (See for example the memorial Article for Montefiore
954:
Jews in the UK were in a similar position to Roman
Catholics before emancipation. And of course a much better position than African Americans in the USA before emancipation - or indeed most Africans before decolonisation. It is invidious to select facts in a way that singles out a single religion or
513:
that "The next fourteen layers are from the
Ottoman period and their addition is (most likely mistakenly) attributed to Sir Moses Montefiore who in 1866 arranged that further layers be added “for shade and protection from the rain for all who come to pray by the holy remnant of our Temple”. The top
931:
occurred in the 1830s, so it has really only been less than 2 centuries. So less 10% of their history from the
Diaspora to the founding of Israel, and only in a few societies we could count on our hands, I would say that doesn't fully capture the preponderance of the Jewish experience for most of
1162:
They are effectively the same, they just come from different words (villanus, a worker on a Roman villa, a servus, a servant/slave of any sort). There was never any really strict rules to feudalism, and it differed depending on the time and place (and some argue that it never existed at all!), so
1112:
There may be good arguments to made in favour of
Zionism, but deliberately exaggerating claims of discrimination in order to promote the argument, as this statement does, is simply absurd. The side effect, incidentally, is to damn European countries which had a resident Jewish population, such as
926:
The plural of anecdotes is not data, and over the course of a few thousand years, that an occasional Jewish person found themselves in positions of power, or that we can name a single society once in a while, for a few decades, where Jews weren't treated with revile and hatred doesn't affect the
108:
I'm seeking and failing to find maps of the
Ukraine after the Russian annexation of the Crimea, i.e. they were first produced after the incident or they're marked as having been updated after the incident. I don't care about the licensing status: I'm trying to complete an article about
410:
1163:
there is no precise definition of terms related to what we think of as feudalism that would cover the entire Middle Ages. Some places sometimes called them villeins, other places sometimes called them serfs, other places had other names, but they are the same thing. --
890:
Jayron, isn't your last sentence a little too sweeping, or have I misconstrued its meaning? Were there not many Jewish American citizens between 1776 and 1948? And in other democratic countries? Australia's first native-born governor-general (1931-36), Sir
1038:
In the United States, absolutely correct. But most Jews didn't live under such liberal regimes. Prior to the middle 20th century, most Jews lived in central and eastern Europe, and frequently were not afforded much rights or political power at all.
492:
on Israel National News.) I have seen in in his writings he did "erect an awning for the 'wailing place' near the western wall of the Temple, so as to afford shelter and protection from rain and heat to pious persons visiting this sacred spot"
660:
According to Jewish law? Interest between Jews is forbidden while between Jews and non-Jews it is permitted; the relevant verse refers to not lending to one's "brother" with interest (I am glossing over some complications here). Jews
257:
1266:
was? When he was born and when he died and where he was originally from? The only I know is he was King Kalakaua's military staff as a major and all I can find so far is just his name in a list of other people's names.
773:. However, for most of history, Jewish people were sporadically tolerated, but rarely accepted as full members of the society they lived in, and were subject to frequent persecutions, exiles, massacres, and
669:, in which a loan is viewed as an investment and the interest as dividends. This loophole, however, requires that a document be drawn up, and is not valid for all sorts of loans, if I recall correctly.
860:. The distinction probably didn't make much difference to the Romans, but native Judeans saw the Herodians as foreigners who had converted to the Jewish faith, and not as of their own culture. --
708:, with apparent approbation to the practice: 'Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.' (Matthew 25, 27).
777:. Other than the notable exception of Al-Andalus, I can't think of any substantial period of time, in any place, where Jewish people were afford equal citizenship status to other peoples. --
66:
59:
45:
730:
Note that for most of history, Christianity forbade lending money for interest. This is why Jews, who were allowed to lend money to Christians for interest, became prominent in banking.
55:
51:
895:, was a Jew; he had previously been a Justice of the High Court (1906-30) and Chief Justice (1930-31). This all happened well before the state of Israel came into existence. --
971:
Fair enough. But their history is shocking enough without making it seem that 1948 was the first time any Jew ever, anywhere, was considered a human being worthy of citizenship.
170:
Actually, I meant something different: I'm looking for WP:RS on the subject, because I don't have any solid sources talking about post-incident maps, so the article stops with
1098:
992:" or from the perspective of "Did some Jewish people ever belong to any state as full citizens", the former is a resounding "no" and the latter is a "very rarely". --
823:
ruled over what could be considered a Jewish state — though the state was not really independent of Rome — up to a bit less than 2,000 years before Israel's founding.
1105:
the state of Jews in Britain from Cromwell onwards; between the period of their expulsion (by Edward I) and reintroduction most seem to have settled in Poland; see
928:
25:
457:
who built the top layers of the Western Wall? And when, and why? There is a legend about this relating to Sir Moses Montefiore. Where did it originate?
85:
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the
560:
How many religions or cultural systems disapprove of charging interest for a loan? Do the religious adherents ever own banks or credit card companies?
765:
On the balance, yes, they really were. At times, some countries did grant Jewish people full citizenship rights (or the equivalent), for example see
647:
I may be wrong but I seem to remember reading somewhere that Jewish people are allowed to lend money with interest, but not to each other, see
766:
286:
238:
801:, which was ruled by Turkic peoples who had converted to Judaism, but that is not usually considered a "Jewish state", strictly speaking. --
1114:
276:
213:
212:
I have a Soviet map of Ukraine from 1940 with a "zone of German state interests" labelled beyond the Molotov-Ribbentropp line, interested?
751:
561:
37:
709:
21:
127:
I also have nothing about military maps of the country, especially from the world wars, and those would particularly be helpful.
189:
988:
Fair enough as well. Perhaps I spoke with a bit of hyperbole. But whether you consider it from a "Did the Jewish people have
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1287:
343:(Montague Horatio) Mostyn Turtle Pigott (1865-1927), Author and journalist; founder and first editor of the 'Isis'; barrister
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These concepts are all explained reasonably well at the article you mentioned. (I've taken the liberty of fixing the link.)
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three layers were placed by the Mufti of Jerusalem before 1967." The source listed might have more info.
1168:
806:
619:
262:
Could someone help me with identification in this photograph? I have alrady figured out some of them:
960:
917:
847:
819:
remained independent until just over 2,000 years before the founding of the State of Israel, and the
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which discusses treatment of Jewish people in Muslim Iberia before the Reconquista. Also see
179:
132:
118:
1164:
1140:
1129:
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909:
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113:
and want to include a little bit about how different mapmakers have treated the incident.
1204:
1113:
Poland, as somehow institutionally anti-Semitic which is grossly unfair and unhistorical.
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was also dominated by Jewish people (mostly converts to Judaism) for part of its history.
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In what religion(s) or cultural system(s) is charging interest for a loan illegal?
1147:? Did a villein have more social mobility than a serf? Are they interchangeable?
171:
1078:
731:
623:
1200:
770:
541:
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258:
File:Mark Twain at the House of Commons by Sir (John) Benjamin Stone (2).jpg
1195:
are, at least among lawyers, equivalent words. It is far otherwise in the
665:
lend to other Jews with interest with the aid of a legal loophole called a
74:
955:
ethnicity as "special" or "unique" - whether as victims or as oppressors.
912:
was Sheriff of the City of London in 1836. Hardly a second-class citizen.
856:
It's worth noting that the Herodians weren't culturally Jewish, they were
143:
1291:
1243:
1183:
414:
395:. Not very clear but if I had to I'd put my money on #1 in your picture.
373:. Not yet found clear pic of him (there were 4 generations of Walters of
774:
750:
Where the Jewish people really stateless for around 2,500 years? --
409:
The Scala Archives attempts to identify the men from left to right
592:
340:
John Samuel Phene (1824-1912), Scholar, antiquarian and architect
1144:
1133:
857:
1199:." It has two chapters covering the distinction between them.
234:
837:
and the effective conquest of the Jewish homeland by Rome,
79:
Welcome to the Knowledge Humanities Reference Desk Archives
1282:
Apparently he was Andrew Burrell Hayley, formerly of the
815:
More like 2,000 years than 2,500 years, since the Jewish
509:
842:
they colonized Palestine in the early 20th century.
237:
shows a national border between Ukraine and Crimea.
1012:While I was looking into the distinction between
476:- perhaps some confusion over that has occurred?
1262:Can anybody help me find out who this man named
1187:by Maitland (p.26): "In the thirteenth century
929:Emancipation of the Jews in the United Kingdom
624:http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002183
8:
622:have published an article about interest at
472:I've not heard that legend. He did renovate
150:which may be interesting for your cause. --
771:Al-Andalus#Non-Muslims_under_the_Caliphate
673:
975:them, which was often not the case. --
49:
36:
530:The pelting thing is also mentioned in
65:
1139:Is there a major difference between a
431:There's a caricature of Mostyn Pigott
43:
1286:. Some garbled information about him
146:get you started? From there I found
7:
104:Post-annexation maps of the Ukraine
253:Mark Twain at the House of Commons
32:
578:is a good example to start with.
507:Our article on the Western Wall
1290:(under "Gaiety Girl's Life").--
704:Indeed; one famous Jew refers,
350:Does anybody know who is who?--
319:All help will be appreciated.--
391:There's a picture of Dr Phene
1:
1107:History of the Jews in Poland
839:a series of Jewish rebellions
649:Loans and interest in Judaism
377:before it became a company).
33:
595:is also a relevant read. --
1300:22:55, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
1277:20:33, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
1252:18:41, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
1232:19:37, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
1209:07:05, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
1173:19:40, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
1157:19:34, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
1123:16:06, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
1097:interesting recent article
1091:05:00, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
1055:16:51, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
1034:03:36, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
1008:03:24, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
984:03:20, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
965:04:11, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
948:02:43, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
922:22:52, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
904:22:10, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
876:03:35, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
852:20:13, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
811:19:36, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
793:19:31, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
760:18:22, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
740:23:39, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
718:19:43, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
688:03:35, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
656:00:28, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
639:19:33, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
611:19:22, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
588:18:17, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
570:17:42, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
550:07:39, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
524:07:30, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
502:16:01, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
486:16:25, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
467:16:01, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
445:15:50, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
423:14:57, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
405:14:36, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
387:14:35, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
360:14:28, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
329:14:21, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
277:David Lindsay, Lord Balniel
247:10:38, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
222:08:35, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
208:01:24, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
184:00:50, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
166:00:36, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
137:00:29, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
123:00:16, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
1316:
1081:which existed till 1627.--
835:Siege of Jerusalem (63 BC)
235:google maps russia version
172:this pre-annexation source
346:Mr Walter, of 'The Times'
1184:Domesday Book and Beyond
537:Jerusalem: The Biography
18:Knowledge:Reference desk
1217:Benoni Richmond Davison
532:Simon Sebag Montefiore
435:- looks like your #3.
87:current reference desk
371:Arthur Fraser Walter
287:John Henniker Heaton
797:There was also the
620:Jehovah's Witnesses
932:their history. --
1101:which discusses,
1075:Kingdom of Semien
828:Himyarite Kingdom
817:Hasmonean dynasty
706:by way of parable
93:
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1029:Let's discuss it
1018:Stateless nation
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910:Moses Montefiore
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821:Herodian dynasty
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1264:A. B. Hayley
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1165:Adam Bishop
1079:Beta Israel
803:Adam Bishop
510:used to say
1132:against a
1103:inter alia
978:Jack of Oz
957:DuncanHill
914:DuncanHill
898:Jack of Oz
844:Marco polo
833:After the
667:Heter iska
631:Wavelength
580:Mingmingla
478:DuncanHill
437:DuncanHill
397:DuncanHill
379:DuncanHill
293:Mark Twain
188:How's the
26:Humanities
1237:A source
1181:To quote
375:The Times
369:would be
367:The Times
99:August 12
67:August 13
50:<<
46:August 11
1269:KAVEBEAR
1224:KAVEBEAR
1222:1870s?--
1083:KAVEBEAR
858:Edomites
682:Hasirpad
679:call me
534:'s book
148:this map
24: |
22:Archives
20: |
1193:vilanus
1149:Seattle
1141:villein
1130:villein
1077:of the
775:pogroms
176:Nyttend
129:Nyttend
115:Nyttend
89:pages.
1189:servus
1143:and a
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1023:Cullen
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935:Jayron
863:Jayron
780:Jayron
732:StuRat
653:Andrew
598:Jayron
195:Jayron
153:Jayron
56:August
1201:Gabbe
674:הסרפד
593:Usury
542:Gabbe
516:Gabbe
494:Naytz
459:Naytz
333:P.S.
142:Does
69:: -->
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44:<
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1288:here
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908:And
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826:The
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1244:Cam
663:can
415:Cam
413:.--
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