604:) I wouldn't be considered overly outside/uninvolved here as i've been on the fringes of this dispute and don't get along with ash and a few of the folks who work with him. The core problem here is a simple one: Repeated use of sources by Ash that are advertised as supporting claims that, upon examination, do not support the claims. Whether this is because of a failure by Ash to comprehend the source material or an act of deliberate deception is of no matter; when editors repeatedly falsely attribute claims, in BLPs particularly, there's a big problem. This problem was demonstrated and brought to the attention of Ash. He dismissed the concern and began to write of "hate crimes" "homophobia" and (variously) threats to his "security" and/or "safety." While none of this was specifically directed at DC, as far as I recall, it certainly created the strong implication that the user he was in a dispute with was guilty of these and other crimes. The evidence for it? To this point, none provided. So a nice outcome would also include an undertaking from Ash not to launch such apparent personal attacks without strong evidence for them.
492:- these are articles created for the largest gay saunas (bathhouses) now open in London, notability has never been in question. The sources for these articles have been discussed at length on the article talk pages. Delicious carbuncle made no response to those explanations (even when invited to do so), continuing to complain on ANI instead. No administrator action resulted. There are no current sources in the articles that are under debate as anyone who examines the articles or the talk page can verify.
498:- sources were discussed on the article talk page as well as being discussed at length in the ANI referred to by Delicious carbuncle. I removed all questioned sources from the article as I could not see the point of discussing further. The article did not rely on the removed sources for its existence and the article has not been put up for deletion. There are no current sources in this article that are under debate as anyone who looks at the article can verify.
861:, Ash added a source to the sentence "It is best known for confirming homosexuality a sin in the English and wider church, and for outlawing the export of Christian slaves to non-Christian lands." with this: (Boswell, 1981) p.215 states "The Council of London of 1102 ... insisted that in future sodomy be confessed as a sin." To me, it seems that the citation is for the entire clause, that this Council is
878:
difference between
British and American English. But, it seems to me that Ash should have either put the article at the bottom of the page under a further reading category, or placed the reference where regifting was on the page on the page. But, no where in the citation that was added was the word regiving defined as it was where the citation was placed in the article.
608:
addressed by other means (a difficult problem; given the partisans who created their own special notability guidelines at the porn wikiproject). The porn industry routinely lies about the physical measurements, names, biographical backgrounds, likes/dislikes etc... of its performers and so its promotional literature and events should not be used as reliable sources.
502:
used. As for
Delicious carbuncle's confusion about why no action was taken when s/he raised the same points on ANI, this can easily be explained, no action was taken as I acted in good faith and attempted to discuss and address complaints at the time. There was no administrator action that would have been appropriate to apply policy.
521:
I do not expect or ask to give permission before other editors take action. As for the generic comments about articles "in this genre", I suggest these points are taken up on the PORNBIO / notability talk page and not this RFC/U as this is the wrong forum. I am not responsible for the existence of PORNBIO.
881:
These might seem like minor concerns, and I am sure that Ash added this information with the best intentions. But, if
Knowledge (XXG) is to have any trust as an encyclopedia, references must be correctly placed in articles, whether BLP or not. It seems natural that editors edit articles to match the
775:
I believe the deisred outcome this RFC/U (a voluntary agreement by Ash to cease editing BLPs) is somewhat futile and harsh. Futile, since it is apparent that Ash has ALREADY stopped editing; and harsh given that this was a disagreement between editors, not instructions from any Admin (as the ANI did
536:
I have made no such allegations. I have explicitly stated (more than once) that there is no reason to believe that
Delicious carbuncle has acted out of homophobia. I did once ask a question about apparent off-site lobbying by several editors against gay pornography articles on Knowledge (XXG), I made
520:
be about articles I have not created but may have improved, no diffs or examples have been provided so I can only assume good faith. If any editor feels an article is non-notable it is puzzling as to why they would want to criticise me in an RFC/U and not just go ahead and raise AfDs on the articles.
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for confirming homosexuality as a sin. Reading the source quotation, though, it shows that the
Council made homosexuality a sin, but, it is far from clear that it is best known for that. I don't have access to the book in question, but, it seems to me that Ash, who must have had access to the book
822:
As someone who often defends
Knowledge (XXG) by saying some articles are good and some are bad, it all depends on how they are sourced, the mis-attribution of sources is a very serious problem. Obviously, there are serious problems with BLP's, but, as noted, there are also problems when it occurs in
607:
I am also concerned about the use of the porn industry's marketing tools (the "Grabby Awards" the "Gay Video News Awards" etc...) to both establish purported facts and to determine "notability" for BLP subjects, but this problem is a large one that extends far beyond Ash and probably will need to be
540:
I have been the victim of a personal attack, this matter is not the topic of this RFC/U as it has nothing to do with the BLP issues raised. I ask that Bali ultimate show my family some respect and strike these unsupported hurtful allegations, his/her inappropriate speculation about these matters and
877:
edit, Ash added an article on regifting as the main source for an article on regiving. The citation is entirely about regifting, which is a specific act about giving an unwanted gift to another person, as opposed to just giving unwanted goods. Regiving now redirects to regifting, so maybe it is a
60:
user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 15:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)), the
501:
General "wrongdoing" - I can only respond to examples provided when this RFC/U was raised and these examples were addressed a long time before this RFC/U was raised. I see no reason to "defend" myself against unsourced claims of wrongdoing and I do not believe that is how RFC/U is supposed to be
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in question, could have taken the initiative to either explain more fully what the council or rewrite the sentence so that referenced material was referenced and non referenced material was not. This is probably the weakest of the three examples, but, I feel it is still relevant.
590:
This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside
157:
Believing that the subject matter (gay pornography performers) and sources (including gay pornography sites) were discouraging other editors from reviewing the evidence, I went through the articles recently created by Ash to find two that were not related to gay pornography
136:), Ash's use of a particular gay porn website as a reference was called into question. In the course of that ANI discussion, I requested that Ash respond to a BLPN discussion from December 2009 in which I had explicitly identified misuse of sources. After multiple requests (
166:). These articles had been edited almost exclusively by Ash, so that Ash was only sourcing their own additions. I found several instances of citations being added to support facts that were not present in the sources. I provided diffs and links to the original sources in
885:
I have no interest in the
Wikidrama that is going on between the editors involved, nor do I want to pile onto Ash in a time of personal sorrow. But, I wanted to make my opinion known about the importance of the correct sourcing of all articles on Knowledge (XXG)
407:). Ash seems intent on undoing much of this, specifically creating a huge number of improperly sourced BLPs to flesh-out that list. My impression is that his focus is on inclusion of non-notable persons wo/regard to BLP and reliable sourcing concerns.
850:, nowhere is this data found on that page. Now, maybe it is somewhere on this website. But, it seems to me that it is the responsibility of the person adding the source that the source directs the person directly to where the information is.
190:
Diffs and links to original sources have been provided in the original discussions at BLPN and ANI. For brevity, and to see the complete discussions, those links are below, as well as links to talk pages wherein Ash explained their actions:
398:
and engaged with Ash and others on the list's talk page, circa
December. I advocated the removal of redlinks from the list, not using unreliable sources (imdb, specifically), and disentangled several non-porn BLPs from this list
511:
These comments do not seem to relate to articles about actors appearing in gay pornography that I have created. None of these articles has been successfully nominated for deletion as they comply with the guidance of
826:
With nothing better to do,for some reason I decided to go through Ash's history, and quickly (within 10 to 15 minutes, maybe) found three problematic additions to sources. Listed in chronological order they are:
974:. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.
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The desired outcome of this RFC/U is a voluntary agreement by Ash to cease editing BLPs (biographies of living people), which require "particular care" in the sourcing and verification of facts as per
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481:
The criticism of "wrongdoing" is not supported by the examples provided. These date back to edits I made in 2009, no more recent specific examples have been given. Taking these in turn:
842:. The article states that "In England planning permission has been granted to only 50% of applications while in Scotland more than 90% are being approved." However, if you look at the
278:(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)
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Contrary to policy and guidelines, Ash has improperly added citations which reference facts that are not present in the sources to multiple articles, including at least one BLP.
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not receive Admin intervention). Perhaps Ash might have been significantly more BOLD that you're accustomed, but this does not make all their edits incorrect.
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simply industry marketing tools; this is not an issue unique to Ash or even to porn articles. It's problem in large area of the project. Reliable
182:), Ash continued to deny any wrongdoing or take responsibility for their actions. It is not clear to me why this wasn't swiftly dealt with at ANI.
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If further investigation into the extent of the misuse of citations may also be warranted is a goal, I would support your investigating that.
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AfD that sourcing issues should be addressed on the article's talk page suggests that they are uninterested in dealing with sourcing concerns.
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of the aforementioned AfD discussion. Despite the agreement of four other editors expressing concern about the citations (
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use an appropriate dispute resolution process or ANI if they want to make a complaint and not take this RFC/U off-topic.
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This entire subject area needs an outside review to weed out this "we determine our own reliable sources" mentality.
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I also need to note that some of Bali's comments above stray somewhat off-topic of Ash's editing of BLP's.
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Comments about personal attacks are outside the scope of this RFC/U as raised by
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Rather than fixing the citations pointed out in the BLPN discussion, Ash resorts to ad hominem attacks (
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Delicious carbuncle. See
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of the subject being covered. A huge number of sources on-offer are pretty tight with their subjects.
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Historically, sourcing seems to be a problem with this user. However, these examples are years old.
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I have provided some diffs on the talk page in response to Ash if anyone cares to read them.
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Knowledge (XXG):Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive604#Fraudulent referencing
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signed comments other than your own view or an endorsement should be directed to
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signed comments and talk not related to an endorsement should be directed to
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User has stopped editing Knowledge (XXG). Delisted due to inactivity.
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A summary of the debate may be found at the bottom of the page.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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several specific issues related to the sourcing of this BLP.
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Response to sourcing question raised by Delicious carbuncle
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This was one of the first articles that Ash worked on. He
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Response to off-topic comments about "non-notable" BLPs.
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The whole subject suffers from this systemic weakness
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page will be deleted. The current date and time is:
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The following discussion is an archived record of a
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917:Old, but seems to be part of an ongoing pattern.
931:Convincing and apparently a worrisome pattern.
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838:it in 2006. The problematic citation is
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396:List of male performers in gay porn films
274:Evidence of trying to resolve the dispute
945:Old edits, but problematic pattern. --
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18:Knowledge (XXG):Requests for comment
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31:user conduct request for comment
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63:20:28, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
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73:(
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