Knowledge (XXG):Stub types for deletion/Log/2007/December

2444:

convention, would be a subtype of toed-ungulate-stub. Eventoed-ungulate-stub makes sense (since there is the possibility of an ungulate-stub, even though that stub type doesn't currently exist) whereas the version with the extra hyphen doesn't. It's also usual practice to delete redirects which do not conform to the naming standards, as they lead to extra confusion among non-regular stub-sorters as to whether there is a standard naming pattern, making it harder for them to tell whether there is an existing stub type (if there appears to be a pattern, it makes it far easier to predict what an existing stub template will be named). For that reason, it was until recently standard practice for a rename debate here to implicitly mean "rename and delete the redirect formed from the renaming". It is only in the last month or two (largely since this debate) that the deletion of the redirect has been made more explicit in votes, since some people closing debates were unaware that redirects should have been deleted (hence this debate in the first place). That also might explain the patently bizarre closing of the first debate on even-toed-ungulate-stub. There was no mention of keeping the redirect, and the implication was therefore that it should have been deleted, but whoever closed the debate decided to unilaterally declare that it should be kept.

2280:

guess". leaf-nosed-bat-stub I'd put in the same bracket, in fact. In general I'd suggest that if the redirect is sufficiently "bad" that deletion is required, this be mentioned explicitly in the discussion, since "rename by default means delete" is probably not quite the gold standard in transparency. If you might not like the closer's interpretation of the sense of the discussion, remove the room for same. 3K- and Afro- I'm going to speedy, though, on the basis that they objectively truly suck, lots. Korean- is probably somewhere in between. On the issue iof whether's there's lots, I could generate an exhaustive list from the toolserver db. Since the number of "good" redirects runs into the hundreds if not the thousands, sifting through the complete list is likely not to be a trivial task.

3110:, who have different requirements. one of those requirements is that they can browse categories of a size that is neither too big to easily hunt down articles nor soi small as to necessitate looking through dozens of categories. Categories of between 60 and 800 stubs are an optimum size for this. Anything bigger, and the task becomes too daunting. Anything smaller, and there is serious risk of an editor needing to look in a number of categories while working on a similar subject, and also a danger of a category being repeatedly deleted and re-created as it is emptied and new stubs are created. At present, the Indo-European language stub category has some 350 stubs - right at the "sweet spot" of stub category size. The creator of this stub category (you), listed it as a child category to 3123:

there aren't enough stubs for separate categories by language; (b) since Yiddish is Indo-European, there is nothing wrong in the least with adding an Indo-European language stub template to those articles; (c) is largely irrelevant. Latin was used as a lingua franca for thousands of years by far more people, and English is also used very widely as a lingua franca, but neither of them have or need separate stub types; (d) given that Yiddish is listed in its own article as being a form of High German, albeit with strong outside influences, and is still regarded linguistically as Indo-European, there is no need for a separate stub type for it. More importantly, though, (e) there ain't enough stubs for it to be viable, and the parent category is nowhere near needing to be split.

1171:, but we don't have one that includes the area beyond the five boroughs. Stub sorting isn't intended to be a complete categorization scheme, just a way to get things into small enough yet easily comprehendable bits to enable casual sorters not tied to a particular project to bring articles to the attention of more knowledgeable editors. An SFBA stub, while it might work well for people focused on the SFBA as a whole, would fail at being useful for the stub sorters who have no idea what constitutes the SFBA and no easy way to determine it. 3307:- most of the Yiddish articles can use professional help from editors interested in this field i view the stub cats as a bundle of articles in a certain field that calls the pros to invest more time and help from them. Yiddish today is an important field, although as a native Yiddish speaker myself i may be biased here i would really like to get all the Yiddish stubs in one centralized organised category project so whenever i have more time or whenever a Yiddish user comes in we can go ahead and work on our stubs thanks.-- 4244:- I came across a comment on a "Mesogastropoda" stub article about it being a classification that is no longer used. I don't know about gastropods so I don't know which of these hundreds of articles would be appropriate to merge, but the user indiciated that most (all?) should be able to be reclassified with this different stub type. So I propose we delete the stub for this deprecated classification, and reclassifying the articles that already use it 3146:

to be helpful and not cause you or anyone any aggravation (I didn't even know there were such strong feelings about lowly stubs) so feel assured that this was a good faith creation. I will let my views above stand as a point of principle and for the reasons I have outlined above notwithstanding your fair arguments to the contrary. Thanks for all you work on behalf of the Knowledge (XXG) community. Sincerely,

1212:

minimum possible number of templates/categories per article. It's been fairly thoroughly established that the easiest size of category for editors to hunt through is between about 60 and 600 stubs. It's also not very useful to split a stub category into types that will have an "everything else" type (which is why US states are generally split by counties - and also generally split by

2050:. I hope this doesn't mean that there are a load of cases where the vote has explicity said "rename" (and implicity required the deletion of non-standard names, per the comments in this page's headers) where there has not been a deletion of the old name. If there are, there's going to have to be a LOT of searching through the SFD log to find what should have been deleted... 1222:

places within the course of their lifetime. It's the same with sports teams. We don't have stub templates for players for a particular sports team because chances are we'd have to tag some articles with six or seven different templates - it's far more sensible to stub them by a variable that will likely only have one template needed, like field position or decade of birth.

1137:

is landlocked so people and events specific to the city also have strong ties to the communities across the bridge with folks often moving from one to another or working in one while living in another. Also disagree that bios shouldn't be included as people often are tied to a specific city, is that really a problem?

4083:. That category has only seven articles, so threshold is also nowhere near being reachable at present. What's more this stub template feeds directly into a permcat rather than a stub cat. All that without even mentioning that "modernistic" is a less widely used adjective than "modernist", anyway (cf. 2443:

FWIW, the reason why the redirect was tagged is that it's standard practice in stub naming to use hyphens to indicate a subtype - that is, Korean-cuisine-stub was moved to Korea-cuisine-stub (taking the usual noun form) as an acceptable subtype of cuisine-stub. Even-toed-ungulate-stub, by that naming

2298:

Probably simple enough to report them when we find them, rather than doing a massive time-consuming search. As to the interpretation of the discussion, it's worth noting that usually if the redirects are to be kept that's noted when the discussions are closed. Deletion of the redirects still seems to

1919:

while being made. For the record (pardon the accidental pun), song stubs are almost always subdivided by decade and genre, not by group. It's very likely that the Wikiproject would be better served with a talk page template, but if this is kept the template will need renaming (this isn't a subtype of

1599:

At the very least, renaming is needed for the templates - CPI could easily be, for example, the Communist Party of Ireland. BJP is so named because it is well-enough known worldwide not to be overly ambiguous. As far as the categories are concerned, what usually happens in these cases is if it can be

1330:

I can agree to the naming thing, fair cop to that, and i must admit I was oblivious to the whole stub proposal scheme, fair cop to that to, but i have to say, that a Los Angeles stub was needed as the only one that was closely related to an LA stub was about LA geography or particular neighbourhoods.

1136:

This actually is more inclusive than San Francisco-alone stub although I understand the misunderstandings. The 9 counties of the SF/Bay Area are quite interlinked and starting projects for San Jose, Oakland, Marin and dozens of other cities/areas does seem premature. Also similar to New York City, SF

296:

It is an odd one - a cat manually added (no template), but looking at the articles the reason is clear - someone has added the Romania-struct-stub to these two articles on dams that span the border. An upmerged Serbia-struct-stub is a reasonable idea, but (as I said) upmerged, so this category is not

3140:

Hi Grutness: First I must admit I was not aware of the criteria you have enumerated above, and I sincerely appreciate your efforts in doing so now. I actually do think that you should try to post these guidelines somewhere so that other editors who are not that intensely involved with language stubs

3105:

I swear one of these days I'm going to make a template that explains the reasons for this - so many people just don't seem to get it. No, Knowledge (XXG) is not paper, and as such, it's perfectly acceptable for categories for use by readers to be of any size. however, stub categories are not for use

1646:

Update, and an attempt to get more input: The second of these two has now reached threshold, and is acceptable on that basis - the first shows no sign of doing so (it's nowhere near - only 16 stubs). The template names are still contrary to stub naming conventions and need changing - but what to? If

1415:, but it should grow to a reasonable size soon enough once it has a standard name for people to find. We might wish to make the scope be the county rather than just the city. It's likely to get a number of false positives from the county anyway, and the increased scope isn't that much of a problem. 284:

Found this in orphanage, found some parents, but this doesn't seem to have come out of the stub folks' realm but was just created, has two articles which may indicate that it's new and not yet populated or that it's creation is unwarranted at this time. I know many people who participate in CFDs are

4274:

If someone can give me a list of which articles are to be reclassified on a taxon-by-taxon basis, I should be able to start depopulating this, and indeed fixing the taxobox at the same time. If that's not possible, then as Intertzoo says, this will for practical purposes have to be postponed until

3145:

as an editor so stubs are an important way for me to get at articles that need to be worked on, and at the same time I assumed it would be easier to create a template for and list Yiddish-related stubs in one place. I guess we will have to wait till there are a lot more of them. Finally, my aim was

2996:

Unproposed stub for a single language - no sign that it is in any way likely to reach threshold for splitting. In any case, language stubs are divided by language families, not individual languages. We don't even, on the English-language Knowledge (XXG), have a stub type for English, so I seriously

2279:

I suggest keeping the NorthernMarianaIslands-radio-station-stub and even-toed-ungulate-stub redirects, since those are really in the "have to stop and think about it" category as to which is the "good" and which is the "bad" version. And if you haven't memorised the NGs, it's in the realm of "wild

2231:

Accept these sorts of names as redirects and abandon the whole idea of having uniform names, resigning ourselves to picking through a morass of occasionally whimsical and often ambiguous names in the faint hope that we will discover stub templates that actually have the meanings we think they have

1211:

There are a lot of very good practical reasons for the way stub categories are arranged, as far as such things as size and split are concerned. It isn't "wikilawyering" - it's simply ensuring that the stub types have the maximum possible usefulness for the minimum possible number of stub types and

3967:

You, you're right, it's PRChina (usually with a redirect at PRC), though I'd argue (though it's steering towards abstruse stub philosophy) that it's more a case of "delete China-x-stub and create PRChina-x-stub" than "rename China-x-stub", since there is at least one China-x-stub which was at one

1390:

and doing a manual restubbing (including using this stub and San Francisco-stub. (Not bothering with the Bay Area stub as California stubs was not in sufficient need of pruning as to make such a potentially ambiguous stub necessary.) Looks like the two city stubs will be large enough to warrant

1113:

By strange coincidence, this one was created hours after I nominated the previous one. Seems to have been cut and pasted from California-stub, with all links still as with that template (including interwikis). Even worse than the previous, naming wise, and with a more ambivalent scope. If the one

4258:

I would request that this change is not done right now, but is least postponed until the next major update/reworking of the gastropod taxonomy is published, which will be sometime in 2008. Right now these Polbot generated stubs need a lot of work on their taxoboxes and elsewhere, and keeping the

3122:

confirms that this is the correct place for it. Many languages have strong links to several language groups - have a loom at the links between English and Germanic, Norse, and Romance laguages, as well as the influence that everything from Greek to Hindi has had on it. So to cut things short (a)

1221:

articles, not just stubs, that relate to a WikiProject. As far as bio-stubs are concerned, most people are not specifically tied to one city or ever one state - if they are notable, they are usually notable primarily for their occupation and nationality, and many people live in several different

4424:

the stub templates and categories to just Yukon and not keep any YukonTerritory redirects. I have labeled all of the above stub templates and categories for sfr, so as to generate the widest possible discussion in case for some reason we decided to standardize on including Territory.

1175:

isn't large enough to need an arbitrary split just yet. Its at 262 stubs right now and I'm in the middle of sorting them (to help see if the SF and LA stubs are worth keeping) and expect that it'll be down to a 1 page category when I'm through. Besides, talk page templates, such as

1364:

A LosAngeles-stub is probably a reasonable idea, though it shouldstay upmerged until we know it's reached the normal splitting threshold (there's certainly no sign yet of the 60 stubs that it would need for that, though for a city the size of LA, it shouldn't take much effort).

2320:

FWIW, I emptied out the NorthernMarianaIslands-radio-station-stub and NorthernMarianas-radio-station-stub has all six AM/FM licensed stations (there's also a shortwave station without even an article), so I doubt we need worry too much about new stub articles for this one, so

2923:

Concur, and certainly recommend keeping the redirect, since if it's questionable for marginal for those of us that have pondered these things at length, how much more so for "passing trade". (Though it could be done by fully-automated bot if need be, I should disclose.)

2905:

session, and even that is optional, really, since the non-spaced versions exist as redirs to the spaced ones, so nothing would change but an inversion of that redirection relationship. And apologies to whoever it was that I reverted on this matter about a month ago. —

2166:

I was right in my comments in the section above, sadly. Someone has been closing and logging "rename" debates here without orphaning and deleting the old template names. Just looking back through the logs to the beginning of September, I've discovered the following:

2893:, respectively, because Alai, Grutness, and others have (without really trying, and with no effort in that direction at all even after a year; i.e. no canvassing of any kind has been at play) convinced me that this "RunTogether" format, while kind of idiosyncratic, 3968:

time used for both China and Taiwan (China-geo-stub - which is why it now has a note on it saying "please don't use this any more") - which is clearly not the intended use for this one. The general effect is the same, though, so we'll split the diff and I'll say

1216:

counties simultaneously). With other circumstances,w here there is a specific interest group working on articles, then Caerwine's suggestion of a WikiProject-specific talk page template is by far the most practical and useful mapproach - it can be used to assess

1146:

It depends on how tied people are to a locale. If a person's notability is limited to just that area then it may make sense, but except for politicians, few people are so limited, even if that is where they have always lived. To take a hypothetical example,

3989:

I agree it's also (arguably) a change in scope, but I did allude to that aspect too... I don't have any strong feelings about moving, vs. deletion and recreation under the new name -- though I think we did keep China- redirects in various other cases.

961:

This one's been around for three months and has gained about a dozen stubs in that time - and it's needed a rename since day one. Worse, many of the stubs seem to be bio-stubs, which shouldn't have a locational template other than for nationality.

1600:

shown that there are enough stubs during the counrse of the SFD debate, then they're kept. So... start tagging! (and don't worry whether you're tagging with templates that will need renaming - when renaming is done, it will likely be by bot :)

683:

and narrowly survived (though its category didn't - which is why it's now upmerged). There are certainly plenty of MK articles - I think this one's just been that rarest of things, a success! The articles which were stubs have been expanded.

1311:

if it were needed), and also created with links as California-stub. Worse, many of the stubs seem to be bio-stubs, which shouldn't have a locational template other than for nationality. Either rename and populate it properly, or delete.

2469:

OK, thanks for the explanation of the naming convention, I wasn't clear on that issue. It would seem that the problem here though is that the ungulates are not "eventoed" nor are they "even toed" but they are in fact "even-toed". See

1003:

No it shouldn't. A Frisco stub is useful to sorters who don't know and don't care what exactly constitutes the SFBA. An SFBA stub is only useful to specialists already familiar with the SFBA and as such should be considered only if

849:, or in the top of any stub category - most of them carry the WP:WSS banner saying that proposal is recommended. Loads of WP cleanup pages have links to the big list of stub types - which has the info - as well (everything from 1391:

keeping correctly named versions as upmerged stubs, but until someone goes trolling through the sub categories of California stubs, I can't see either stub being large enough to warrant a stub category of its own.

1949: 3717:

I created this in error quite some time ago, and thought it had been deleted already. Since MLB didn't start until the 1870s, this is highly unlikely to ever got populated. Needs to be ejected from the game. :)

4535:

While marking the templates and cats for the above I discovered that this category is seriously undersized with only 30 stubs, so we may wish to delete the category and upmerge the template to its two parents.

2615:

Um, no. Please discuss it here. Or at the very least, bring a consensus of what the Cat WikiProject wants done here. Stub renaming is done here, so it makes little sense to conduct the discussion elsewhere.

2428:

I do see the problem with the deletion debate, three different votes and the closer picked one and didn't state a reason or sign the close, that's bad; but that's not the issue I'm concerned with directly.--

1647:

something can be done about the template name for the second one, then it looks keepable. A change of template name and upmerging of the first one seems possible, but the category is still unnecessary.

2400:- which it appears was implemented). There doesn't appear to be any new discussion however, unless this is it. So what's up? This tag is applied to a large number of stubs and shouldn't be deleted.-- 1533: 446:, which conforms to stub naming (the nominated duplicate does not, since it isn't a subtype of Potter-stub). What's more, the nominated template has a non-GFDL image, which is against WP rules. 151: 82: 3034:

has been greatly expanded and many articles in it are stubs, so what else to call them? (c) Yiddish is a unique thousand year old plus language with a long history directly connected to the

3953:

That's a fair point, though IIRC it's PRC- and/or PRChina-; and that would argue for a rename, rescope and upmerge, strictly speaking. (Takes less work to do that to type it, almost...)

1432:

I would certainly favour scoping templates by county, since that's how the geos work. It would also faciliate upmerging and later splitting of the somewhat-nebulous Areas and Regions.

1809:

First, the category includes only 3 stubs, and is unlikely to ever contain a large number of stubs. Secondly, "citrus" is ambiguous in the stub name. There is a botanical genus named

2711: 3361:, which the few editors with experience in this area can devote their attention to. Finding them amongst over 300 Indo-european stubs is a hopeless needle-in-a haystack exercise. -- 1665:

Agree with keeping second template. Suggest upmerge first template and rename (to CPIndia-politician-stub?) possibly renaming second as well (to CPIndia(Marxist)-politician-stub?)

680: 1516: 256: 4445:

the change to Yukon, per the article and permcat. No opinion as to keeping/deleting the redirects, though if the place no longer uses the name, they do seem redundant.

3190: 3030:

be a "stub type" for English, or for any language for that matter. Is there an official Knowledge (XXG) policy that restricts the creation of such stub templates? (b)

3044:. (d) Yiddish is essentially in its own class (beyond any one specific) language family as such because it is not just an "Indo-European" language, as it is a unique 4135: 4117: 1813:

as well as a "citrus family" of plants. There is also a groups of fruits called "citrus" which includes more than the genus, but less than the family. I propose

329: 363: 247: 1449: 2370:

is embarrassing. Can some admin please remove it? This shouldn't warrant as much debate as even-toed ungulates or Northern Mariana Islands radio stations.

1909:- may well remain undersized even if used on all LZ song stubs. Seems to be associated with a new WikiProject which doesn't seem to have read through 1622:- I agree with a CPIM cat (they are a notable political force and there is probably enough population for the cat) but not the CPI stub (which means 4465:

move/redirect everything to Yukon-xxx. Official named changed from Yukon Territory to Yukon. Please also cleanup the sfr labels on the temlates. --

21: 1731: 1688: 1569:

I usually don't work with stubs, and had completly missed/forgotten the proposal procedure. Sorry about that. I had simply copied the basis for

4556:. Keep stub and category, as to be consistent with the other provinces/territories categories and templates, even if it's underpopulated. -- 2897:

simply what we prefer for stub template names. I would rather be consistent with everyone on this than be a pain the backside. So I hereby

3091:(yes, I kid thee not), all of which means that Yiddish is a language in a league of its own, and this stub should be retained. Thank you, 858: 17: 824:

Also, is there a rule book for these types of things? How is someone supposed to know that there is a process to these types of things?

4573:

I agree that the template should be kept, per the reason you mentioned, but the category is small which is why I recommended upmerging.

4523: