Knowledge (XXG):Templates for deletion/Log/2006 February 13

1405:"And, if it is PD in the Russian Federation, then it should be PD elsewhere." — that statement neatly sums up the core of a common misunderstanding about PD works. It's not true. PD means "not copyrightable in the first place, or copyright expired". Copyright expiry is different in different countries, and a Russian (or Soviet) work may still be copyrighted outside Russia or the USSR (e.g., in the U.S.) even if its copyright has expired in Russia or the USSR itself. It's sad, but that's the way it is. 1248:- it is a commonly accepted that all the Soviet-published images published before 1973 are PD (see Commons for an example) outside the SU. What is happened was it challenged in a court or what? There are literally hundreds (or even thousands if we include Commons) of images with this tag, their removing would be a strong blow to Knowledge (XXG) coverage for all the xSU topics and should be avoided if there is a slight possibility. I think it is a good idea to have a 1059:

try to make a point. I believe that I can follow what's in there, but I can easily imagine an equaly conclusive near-legalese persuading me to take a different point of view. And, of course, it's really strange that you haven't run it through the projects/portals mentioned by Ghirlandajo, this could probably fetch you some expertise in the local specifics. If and when the said projects support your reasoning, you should re-try TfDing this. Until then,

1196:. If (a) we can figure out what kind of works (all, or just photographs?), (b) determine whether it's "published before 1954" or "author died before 1954", (c) figure out whether it's "January 1, 1954" or "July 28, 1954" (copyrights typically expire at the end of the year, so I'd be surprised if it were July 28), and (d) find an authoritative source for the interpretation, I think we could reword these templates to state that such works were PD 1394:, but I still need to find the exact agreement so we have something to go by here. Also, article 28 of the Russian copyright law says that any piece of work that did not enjoy copyright protection in the territory shall be in the public domain (1993 law). If there were some work that was made PD during the Soviet Union, then it should be PD in the Russian Federation. And, if it is PD in the Russian Federation, then it should be PD elsewhere. 1200:. That doesn't mean that such works were PD elsewhere, but at least that would give us a reasonable template. At least pre-1954 would minimize the false PD declarations. We would still need to re-evaluate the images to make sure they fit the bill and figure out what to do with the rest. As for the "elsewhere" part: if "pre-1954 is PD in Russia" is true, it probably also holds in the 993:

photographs being deleted by copyrights paranoiacs. Now we'll lose half the images pertaining to the 20th-century history of Russia and Ukraine. There is only one solution: move them to Commons, where paranoia is not so rampant. Or just tag {PD-self} every image you download, no matter how old it is. Sorry for my tone, I'm so frustrated with your frivolous nomination. --

1138:

particular image is not clear, make the templates reflect that (and maybe merge them?), and lets get to work on sorting this out. Once we know what kind of image is definitely covered, create a new template to label them as safe. Once we know what kind of image definitely isn't covered, we can start dropping those and perhaps finding replacements from other sources.

1219:

dated that it is impossible to find out the source, others are simply precious. In all cases when I upload vintage Soviet fotographs I always give the source from where it came, however there are times when the original source is lost (E.g. the site closing down) and thereby permanentely losing the photograph. IMO - a waste of time even starting this discussion. -

1178:

fewer images with the disputed tag they'll be easier to deal with. There's another issue here, though, which is that many of these images have no source. I've dealt with this before both here and at Commons, that many people think that claiming PD as a Soviet-era image means exemption from providing a source. The template should also have the text, "You

2203:- It's not really advertising. You're not selling a product, you're just simply claiming that you like to dine at . I could see a difference if the userboxes had some different wording. Also, was the "Feel free to mentally fill in the obvious slippery slope argument that one can make here." comment really necessary? Come on. 2060:. I, personally, find them to be childish and inane. I also agree that they constitute free advertising for companies that certainly don't need free advertising. In fact, I like Catamorphism's suggestion. Trouble is, I'm afraid that deleting it might start a firestorm of people insisting that such templates as {{ 1058:

While Ghirlandajo could indeed better be more civil, he does have a point. The linked in discussions are written in near-legalese, and have no conclusive statement that can explain the point to common mortals like myself. Furthermore, they're adorned with numerous IANAL remarks wherever somebody does

3320:

This template is useful in reminding potential contributors of the need for contributions and the basic ground rules. It also serves as a quiet reminder that there are people watching these pages. It is a suggested way to address these issues. If it is big, ugly, or has a CSS error (?) edits to cure

1891:

Advertising. I can see how listing one's favorite food or dietary habits can be somewhat informative. But these templates don't really say much about anyone as a person, let alone as a Wikipedian. This is little more than advertising. Feel free to mentally fill in the obvious slippery slope argument

1592:

At least that gets us somewhere. I think most of the work we have been dealing with has been Soviet-work made before this time period, but with some of the information I posted, that should get us on the right track. And, since this is a Wiki, we can always modify the templates later on changing the

1177:

says, two templates. One, a new one, would be for Soviet images from before 1954, which are definitely PD. The current ones would be rewritten to strongly suggest that the copyright status of images between 1954 and 1973 is not certain. We could move the early ones as we find them; once there are

1137:

the text of the template to reflect the currently-presumed copyright status. The justification for deleting the copyright tag from hundreds of images at once seems unclear to me. Let's not knee-jerk delete them all at once, and it would take some time to evaluate them all. Since the status of any

1910:

Gee, I think we can say what we'd like to about ourselves, just so long as it isn't TOO out of bounds (i.e. like the old "User Paedophile" template). The images used are better-than-fair-use images that are therefore allowed on there. Other than that, I don't see why we shouldn't express who we are

1218:

Copyrighting is by far the worst paranoia ever, and in an international encyclopedia and it is wrong to have vintage paragraphs being attacked by clowns who know this is going to cause a massive scandal. Moreover it is a direct insult to the thousands of users who uploaded these images. Some are so

1072:

I find it equally strange that none of the editors who frequented aforementioned notice boards apparently ever read the talk pages of the templates in question (I posted a notice on both long ago), nor do they seem to read other pages on Knowledge (XXG) relating to copyright issues. With hindsight,

1530:

says "And, it is necessary to consider the political situation at the time when the USSR signed the Geneva Convention. It was the peak of the "Cold War", which only lost its intensity at the end of the 1980s. The USSR's signing of the Geneva Convention marked important progress toward establishing

1442:

One more thing: If a Soviet work is PD in the former Soviet Union, it does not necessarily follow that it is PD in the U.S. The UCC appears to apply to works that were published before its signing as long as they have not fallen into the public domain (see article VII). Because the U.S. doesn't

1374:

I find this deletion attempt utterly ridiculous. By ignoring international copyright conventions Soviet Union published enormous amount of foreign literature. I bet the quantities were much higher than the original language editions. And now you are trying to hint at some retroactive rights. If

992:

It is wrong in your personal opinion, but have you heard what others have to say? I don't see what's the point of adding hundreds of images according to established rules, when one day there appears someone who unilaterally declares all the rules wrong? I've already seen some pre-1917 Russian

2459:

one they were initially based on. I did make one of them into a redirect for the other, but thought that's pretty much pointless & it would make more sense to just delete it. So I listed it here. Quite frankly, I don't see a point in either, and would rather see it just left up to

3356:

Christopher mentions. Stub templates are acceptable because they are unobstrusive and, by definition, they don't go on our best articles. This template, though I recognize that it was well-intentioned and I appreciate the desire to welcome new contributors, is neither necessary nor

3352:. A wikipedia article should not discuss its own editing process; to do so is to suggest that process matters more than content, whereas the whole point of this encyclopedia is that we really can produce an encyclopedia, not just a really big wiki. This is the main reason for the 1016:

the templates to reflect current knowledge regarding the copyright status of works created in the Soviet Union, even if it's just to say "The copyright status of works created in the Soviet Union before 1973 (or before 1954, or before 1948, or whatever) is uncertain."

1664:

It is obvious that the deletion didn't fly. Lupo is free to propose modification, but I think we can safely close the vote. I am removing the TfD note from the template's page. Please xontinue discussions on the proposed changed at the template's talk or wherever.

1105:

I am not a lawyer, (and Lupo states that he is not) but I do not find the previous discussions referred to by Lupo as in any way conclusive. In fact they are in many ways impenetrable. I find nothing there to convince me that a wholesale change is needed. Therefore

871:. Note that the final two comments here are considerably off-base. No image was ever going to be deleted, and it's not a matter of deletionism to seek correct tags and wording in tags, and removal in case of complete error. Namecalling does not help, Irpen. - 2176:, "advertising" like this - from a non-affiliated party acting on their own with a little box - is different from really "advertising" - turning your user page into a page all about your commercial site advertising your product. Agree with CKA3KA. -- 3321:

these are welcome. It is useful, harmless and should not be deleted. Hopefully members of the community are willing to consider creative attempts to address the problems we all face and work to refine them rather than reject them out of hand.

1695:

copyright tag with a statement that we believe is legally valid - whatever the discussion about Russian copyright terms and PD decides is the actual legal case - and migrate images to that as we validate that they actually qualify.

2116: 907:. These tags state that any work published in the USSR before 1973 were in the public domain outside the USSR because the USSR was not party to any international copyright treaties before. This reasoning is wrong; please see this 1191:

Both Michael and you have stated that pre-1954 images were definitely in the public domain. I presume that this is some effect of some Russian law of 2004. That might then apply to Russia, and indeed make certain works PD

1266:, none of the people voting keep seem to have presented any argument that these are in the public domain. I think that keeping and rewriting the tag isn't a great idea, either. We still have lots of images tagged with 552:

The spelling is standardized as "Vietnam," but, as with East Timor and the more accurate Timor-Leste, some users (me) would prefer to be able to display the alternate spelling. I honestly don't see what the big deal is.

1683:: We should never delete a copyright tag simply because it is incorrect, while there still exist images that reference it. We should also not reword a copyright tag; whether the statement it makes is correct or not, 637:

Could you then explain why this template is more efficient than typing "Viet Nam"? It doesn't have any text other than the country name, and inserting it into an article takes more text than typing the country name.

438:

There are different name templates for "Czech Republic"/"Czechia", "East Timor"/"Timore-Leste", "Taiwan/"Taiwan (ROC)"/"Republic of Cina (Taiwan)". This is for "Viet Nam," it's consistent and (more) appropriate.

1323:

Based on the discussions below, I have rewritten the template, citing relevant laws. There is still one missing piece in the template that needs a citation. If someone can fill in that one missing piece, then

1231:

and find a more productive use for your time (like writing articles) isntead of assaulting good articles properly illustrated by properly used images. Raise the issue of rephrasing the tag separately and

1443:

follow the rule of the shorter term, Soviet works that weren't in the public domain in 1973 could be protected in the United States for a period of 95 years. IANAL, but that's my interpretation.

1310:

When in doubt, we should delete. Copyright compliance is important to the project. I appreciate the efforts of both Lupo and some of the people below to attempt to resolve this unclear issue.

954:? No? Then go and discuss the matter with more knowledgable people. If you want to keep Knowledge (XXG) afloat, please find something more useful than deleting other peoples' hard work. So, 1568:

says that in Belarus, all works prior to May 27, 1973, shall be protected under Article 18 of the Berne Convention (eg. they have fallen into the public domain and have to stay that way).

2219: 2450: 1531:

international ties that allowed cooperation between this country and the free-market world. Prior to May 27, 1973, no foreign intellectual property had been protected in the USSR." and

1293:

in the public domain either, and, as others have pointed out, we don't know of any copyright-holders challenging use of such images in Knowledge (XXG), or anywhere else in the world.

947: 42: 37: 2439:- why is this even here? No discussion on either talk page, so impossible to form an informed opinion; was there some third template that preceeded the creation of both on 12 Feb? -- 2040: 1497:

Oh, do you have a citation for the fact that works published in the USSR before 1973ish were PD in the USSR at that point? That's the only thing keeping me from changing my vote.

943: 3404: 543:

I still don't get what the difference is between that and simply typing "Viet Nam". Can users somehow customize Knowledge (XXG) to their own spelling preferences or something?

2061: 1723: 1073:

it would have been an idea to post notices at these notice boards, but, stupid as it may seem, it just didn't occur to me. Anyway, I have yet to see anyone make a clear case

1459:

says that from 1923 until 1977 if the photo is "In the public domain in its home country as of 1 January 1996," then it shall be in the public domain in the United States.

581:

meta-templates are evil. I ask the votes above which are primarily based on this misconception to reconsider, since the country templates are very useful and widely used. —

1012:

There are too many images linking to these templates to just delete them outright, especially when WLH is broken and there's no telling where they may be lurking. I say,

2074:

should be deleted on the same grounds. Most people probably aren't going to want to use fast-food userboxes, anyway. Discretion is the better part …, and all that rot. —

928: 1985:, advertising. A "this user eats fast food" (or, more accurately, "this user eats grease-covered styrofoam commonly advertised as food") template would be fine. 1482:, is a treaty party". So, it would appear that these images would fall under the conditions described in 17 USC 104A (h) and would be in the public domain. 156:

Not used on any pages. I checked this through backlinks to the template and to the image called within the template. The only page to ever use this template

1204:(honors the "rule of the shorter term"), but for the U.S., probably only pre-1946 or pre-1942 works would be PD (the URAA date 1996 minus 50 or 54 years). 2468: 1729:

Deletionists may continue a separate debate on how to modify the tag, but the delete vote has been up for over 5 days and its result is clear. --

21: 1252:

that are PD everywhere including fSU countries. It might be useful for the Knowledge (XXG)-based commercial products sold in Russia and Ukraine

1086:

The templates seemed correct and stable, so no reason to add them to my watch list occurred to me. Seems it would have been a good idea.

942:

So, more than 600 images are about to be deleted because a couple of copyright nazis decided so? Did they discuss the Soviet copyright on

2839: 304: 17: 1622: 3095: 2933: 2006: 456:- Unless someone can come up with a really good reason to keep this, it and all other country-name templates should be deleted. 3303:

This template is big, ugly, and unnecessary. It creates its own section, and has some sort of CSS error. Should be deleted.

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Well, I don't fully understand how that template works, but I'll give this template the benefit of the doubt. My apologies. —

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copyright status. I already merged Sovietpd into the other template (PD-USSR) due to the point you brought up earlier Lupo.

2216: 2048:; lots of other user boxes can be interpreted as commercial, such as all religions and political parties. That's nonsense. 912: 2784: 1363: 395: 768: 3341: 2185: 1705: 3419: 3242: 3223: 3057: 3038: 2895: 2876: 2744: 2725: 2624: 2605: 2504: 2485: 2253: 2234: 1766: 1747: 908: 859: 840: 355: 336: 69: 2461: 1911:

or what we do in this sort of way. Who would ever think these restaurant-preference userboxes go far out-of-bounds? --

975:. Seriously, there is no need to resort to unfounded and childish personal attacks. Read carefully what I wrote: the 798: 386: 379: 3385: 3361: 3344: 3325: 3314: 3258: 3208: 3187: 3171: 3159: 3140: 3073: 3023: 3009: 2997: 2978: 2911: 2861: 2830: 2811: 2762: 2710: 2691: 2642: 2590: 2571: 2522: 2431: 2417: 2403: 2375: 2345: 2324: 2271: 2207: 2195: 2168: 2156: 2144: 2123: 2103: 2090: 2078: 2052: 2021: 2009: 1989: 1977: 1957: 1933: 1915: 1901: 1782: 1733: 1709: 1669: 1658: 1646: 1634: 1599: 1587: 1574: 1554: 1541: 1505: 1490: 1475: 1471: 1465: 1451: 1437: 1420: 1409: 1400: 1382: 1366: 1340: 1318: 1284: 1256: 1240: 1223: 1208: 1186: 1163: 1127: 1114: 1081: 1067: 1051: 1042: 1029: 1001: 987: 966: 935: 919: 877: 825: 738: 729: 709: 672: 653: 632: 602: 561: 547: 538: 518: 485: 473: 447: 429: 419: 403: 373: 321: 309: 285: 267: 249: 237: 223: 200: 175: 133: 2293: 1835: 1802: 2544: 2215:- If you're going to delete these, you might as well delete every other userbox with a brand name attached to it. 2086:. Some people like whoppers, some people like a Royale with cheese, some people like a taco. What's the problem? ( 1868: 1611:

As per Ghirla. The value these pictures give to wikipedia is phenominal, if there is doubt they should remain.--

1375:

Russia wants to "inherit" some dubious Soviet copyrights, let her pay off Soviet copyrights ingringements first.

3418: