2709:. I put that version in the sandbox just now, so the test cases should have nbsp in them. If we're sure it's going to mostly work, it shouldn't be hard to propagate this sort of sronly tweak to other templates that use tooltips (especially since most of the inline cleanup/dispute ones use a meta-template). The real cleanup operation over the long haul would be undoing misuse of
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actual encyclopedia content, not metadata. PS: There is actually a very technical HTML 5 compliance nitpick with the sronly template (at all, not just in this particular kind use of it); something it is doing needs an extra attribute on an element; I forget the details, just something I saw when I ran its output through W3C's validator. I'll try to remember to bring that up at
2533:, I hope the test cases are clear enough. I've tested various linking scenarios, and each example presents the code to test, then example output of the sandbox version of the template, and finally sample output of the current "live" version of the template (useless right now for this, since it lacks any sronly code).
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nature, or not necessary for full understanding if you already have the context), but I don't think I would want to have such a radical deviation for three different kinds of devices from the casual editor's authoring perspective, which is almost always desktop only, and unlikely to consider the impacts.
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With the accessibility fix being tested above, that should take care of much of this. I don't think we can care that the mobile-but-sighted version may lack some features. That's a usability not accessibility matter, and the mobile version lacks all sorts of features that the desktop site has. It has
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feature to let people know they are going to a glossary entry if they click on the link. It in no way breaks the links, nor interferes with identification of the link URL (usually done in the browser-window footer, though this varies by user agent), nor hiding the actual content that is marked up by
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Redundant template with self links. The template contains links for promo articles about the non notable books. Those articles have already been merged or redirected to the author's article by multiple editors. The template is only used on the author's page and now serves no purpose, as it is simply
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Thanks for this. Yes, it does work well with screen readers, though I would put an initial space before the left bracket in the screen reader output. This would be nice to have if the tooltip/etc. templates were used ideally almost 100% of the time, but as you said that's not always the case. Also,
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which could be expanded to cover this, but it currently deals just with domestic single season efforts rather than international career ones. This could be better dealt with by a category than a navbox. As it is, many of the players listed are bowlers who have played long enough to reach 1000 runs,
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to get the content into view of the screenreader. We would still have issues with devices that are neither screenreaders nor desktop (namely, almost all mobile) with a media query for mobile. It is likely that most people on those devices would not want the content (as it is often parenthetical in
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template as well. On the Google glitch: I would hope that wouldn't matter much for this particular sort of use case, since the material in these tooltips is basically trivial, parenthetical annotation. I can see the math-markup substitution being a more important and problematic case, since it's
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This is the same kind of trade-off; if the template (and MoS material about it) is documented properly, to not use it to effectively "hide" key content, but only add navigational and other features that are secondary, there is not an actual problem for us to solve from an encyclopedia-production
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WP has made various decisions to permit features that are not 100% accessible to everyone (collapsing navboxes, etc.), because they provide useful features for a majority of users, and they do not harm the actual content of the encyclopedia for users who depend on less capable software (be they
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There are limits to what can be done to make WP or any other website accessible in every imaginable way; the technology simply doesn't exist to do much. And even when it does, makers of screen readers, mobile browsers, etc., often simply refuse to implement such features, and even when they are
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Finally, an old RfC and an apparent consensus to make a blanket statement in one page doesn't mean much if it had little input and if the community itself doesn't want to comply. The guidelines exist to document practice not to try to force a change in it. Nor is such a limited consensus
2049:(PS: I have not TfD-tagged the templates in a way that's visible when transcluded, since these are so frequently used in mainspace that it might be too visually disruptive to even use the small, inline version of the TfM tag. And our readers don't care about template mergers anyway.)
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All that said to MJL about possible ways to make the content of a title attribute accessible, I definitely tend toward agreement with both Gonnym and Nardog. Probably all uses of these templates (and abbr) need scrubbing/work/verification.
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The non-breaking space works fine. Re the title attribute in abbr, it does work, but screen reader users generally have to specify that they want to hear it because the abbreviation expansion isn't spoken by default.
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point of view, and can anyone actually identify a real problem (e.g., an instance of use that harms the encyclopedic experience for a subset of users, rather than simply provides a side feature not all of them can
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2014:(a name that doesn't mean much of anything to anyone) are due to their use in infoboxes and other templates. If 1) instances of the former in such templates are tracked down and sorted properly into uses of
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No accompanying article with coverage that 'Test match double' is a significant achievement and is exclusive. The criteria is too inclusive if we expand it to all test-playing nations. No navigational value.
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2674:. On a scale of importance from 1 to 10, I'd rate the importance of having these always read out for screen reader users as about a 3 or a 4 ... but then again I may or may not know what I'm missing.
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in every case. This is an HTML standards compliance failure on a pretty massive scale. That element is only for abbreviations (including acronyms and initialisms). Despite the redirect from
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Okay, so I seemed to have misunderstood something pretty critical which is that our tooltips are currently not accessible to keyboard-only nor mobile users. I looked into the relevant
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element work properly in screen readers already? I think you were indicating it's handled differently because it's mandatory in that element, a special case. If not, I suppose this
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Not sufficiently important to need a navbox. Content should be in a Test Record article if it is sufficiently important. Doesn't seem to exist for other test countries.
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element specifically. There might be a way to do something like it with JavaScript, but it's a bit out-of-scope for this, at this time. Better discussed post-RfM at
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1745:) from the nomination, as that category is not populated by these templates, but is instead a category(repository) of templates. I will nominate it for C1 soon.
2514:, that looks like it could easily be used to make the tooltip content available accessibly anyway, perhaps as a square-bracketed note. Just feed it the same
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3049:: Please see the thread since you originally commented. The accessibility issues appear soluble, finally. A lot has changed since the old RfD.
2176:. It looks like it should be pretty easy to make one of them into a wrapper for the other until a bot comes along to fix the existing usage. โ
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Added two categories to this nomination, as these two categories are solely populated by the templates that are going to be deleted.
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has been notified of this discussion. Also notified participants in the two old discussions, and talk pages of project pages (e.g.
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exists and includes the exact information. Currently, each page is transcluding both templates and the duplicates are not helpful.
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template wrapper is simply going to be ignored if there is no alternative that does not abuse that element for non-abbreviations.
2557:: Aside from the fix being tested above, I have to point out that we know several relevant things by now from direct experience:
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not something worth following outside of mainspace is ableism. I'm sure you (specifically) can appreciate what that means. --
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the technical village pump does get occasional complaints about weird glitches when this method is used, most notably in
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this as a single template; there were multiple opinions here that indicated it should simply be deleted outright.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below.
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or if people think it appropriate redirect to the main Antonรญn Dvoลรกk template, we don't need the duplication.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below.
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It wouldn't have, because deprecation is not "misrepresentation of policy". Doesn't really matter though.
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That is one of those once-in-a-blue-moon instances where another recently deprecated deletion criterion โ
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And it's confusing to have backasswards parameters at templates that are otherwise essentially identical.
2085:) where people congregate who probably care and also have ideas for how to do this cleanup expeditiously.
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screen readers for the visually impaired, or just mobile web browsers for limited-capability devices).
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Yeah, that's what I was going to do, but the past history is weird, so it seemed best to chat it out.
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Sounds reasonable to me. I haven't read the documentation thoroughly, but at a glance, it seems like
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There is an existing navbox for all countries, but it stops in 1977 for some unexplained reason:
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Is this something people know about and choose? Using this trick to force reading-out of the
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instead; then 3) this should leave only a comparatively small number of manual insertions of
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2588:โ it is not our job to find solutions for every web-accessibility problem ever recognized).
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2276:. The templates clearly violate the accessibility MOS and the outcome of the previous RfD.
2233:. I'm not a fan of this out-of-process restoration of the template. We have a guideline at
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for input that is explicitly abbreviation/acronym/initialism, with the rest remaining as
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while in project or talk namespace. These templates need to simply just be handled like
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for non-abbreviations (which brings us full circle to why this TfM is open. Does the
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is required in that context and it is the expansion of the particular abbreviation.
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The point of this template is to produce the hover/tooltip effect with <span: -->
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calls (which is fine for input that is sometimes abbreviations and sometimes not โ
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Not that I know of; that appears to be a function that your browser does with the
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text, in being add-on material rather than a replacement. And if someone has the
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to force it). If that somehow didn't work, I can try some other replacement like
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implemented, users of those things often refuse to turn those features on.
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which states not to use tooltips at all. We have a community consensus at
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instances (probably an easy bot task). Then some /doc updates, of course.
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covers this case already, of course.) There might be a way combined with
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Knowledge (XXG):Templates for discussion/Log/2020 July 14#Template:Db-t2
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Knowledge (XXG):Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2018_May_9#Template:Tooltip
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do what is expected in this regard? You can add a Hebrew test case to
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are changed in templates to reverse the 1 and 2 parameters and to use
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is an entirely optional semantic markup element); and 2) instances of
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regarding T criteria should be deleted to avoid potential confusion.
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to, because it's a stripped-down version for small, handheld devices.
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unchangeable. When is the last time this was even examined from a
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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Yes, thanks. The cat will go as C1 once the templates are gone.
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Category:Templates for speedy deletion with incorrect formatting
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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165:: Per nom, no navigational assistance is provided anymore. --
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Category:Candidates for speedy deletion as redundant templates
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Category:Candidates for speedy deletion as redundant templates
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did, just with backwards parameters (plus some extra options).
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
2006:. It appears that the vast majority of instances of calls to
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However, could this not be fixed to make it W3C compliant? โ
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values of numerous inline cleanup/dispute templates, e.g.:
2255:. The real issue was that someone at some point removed
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The merged template handles Hebrew labels correctly, as
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there, and it seems that we are improperly relying on
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2435:Yeah I don't really know what to do here either.
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2259:from the /holding cell for whatever reason. --
1444:Template:S-line/QR right/Spirit of the Outback
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2504:Updated, more accessible implementation tests
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2294:I resent the idea that I need to follow the
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1709:. This completes the Queensland conversion.
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1998:I have merged the additional features of
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1707:Module:Adjacent stations/Queensland Rail
18:Knowledge (XXG):Templates for discussion
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317:Test cricket doubles to 1977
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3444:as well. And, I suppose,
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435:Template:Dvoลรกk symphonies
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2733:tweak can be done to the
2337:Calling our guideline on
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507:Template:Dvoลรกk concertos
3610:Please do not modify it.
3498:โ would have applied. โ
3106:Please do not modify it.
3076:Please do not modify it.
2891:currently does not (see
1801:Please do not modify it.
1767:Please do not modify it.
651:Please do not modify it.
623:Please do not modify it.
398:Please do not modify it.
368:Please do not modify it.
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185:Please do not modify it.
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3364:Procedural nomination:
2216:Obvious improvement. --
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555:Template:Antonรญn Dvoลรกk
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1741:Removed the category (
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3016:Template talk:Tooltip
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3570:rather than delete.
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2008:{{Tooltip}}
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1988:Hover title
1727:, per nom.
1711:Fleet Lists
322:. There is
56:December 19
43:December 20
38:December 18
3592:* Pppery *
3526:* Pppery *
2867:|dotted=no
2707:
2609:MOS:ACCESS
2364:guidelines
331:of note.
3615:talk page
3111:talk page
3081:talk page
2967:, unlike
2703: 
2506:: As for
2218:Guy Macon
2178:Jonesey95
1806:talk page
1772:talk page
656:talk page
628:talk page
403:talk page
373:talk page
333:Spike 'em
220:talk page
190:talk page
149:Walrus Ji
79:talk page
3617:or in a
3509:Primefac
3480:Primefac
3394:per nom
3392:Support:
3378:Primefac
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3113:or in a
3083:or in a
3041:Pinging
2955:Question
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3544:Techie3
3401:Asartea
3339:history
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2962:tooltip
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121:history
3585:Delete
3434:, and
3124:delete
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3043:Gonnym
2915:Chatul
2774:Graham
2729:sronly
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2073:Note:
1725:Delete
1700:s-line
669:delete
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573:Delete
416:delete
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299:(talk)
233:delete
163:Delete
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3496:WP:T2
3454:Amory
3366:WP:T3
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2174:Merge
1923:with
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