Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Ethnic groups/Lists of Ethnic Americans

4387:

from German-Americans. You can be both explicitly Jewish and American. What makes a German-American? One entry on the German-American page said "his father's grandfather was German". So that makes him German-American? That's one eighth German, and seven eighths something else. I just looked at Dutch-Americans and found this - "Most of Grable's recent ancestors were American, but her distant heritage included Dutch, Irish, German and English." This is a double-referenced entry, and it includes three other nationalities. Does Betty Grable go on four different xxx-American lists? This is nonsense. And it's not just a matter of editing. Without explicit definitions for ALL these lists, I remove Betty Grable and the original poster reverts and Knowledge (XXG) gets nowhere. Those who add entries will always fight for "their" work, and to hell with good sense.

3308:, they can do so and make it clear either that these lists should be deleted or they should stay. At that point, those who want to delete the lists would have a much tougher time of it. They would have to rely on lack of citations (something that can be fixed) or other arguments, and we'd likely have a situation where consensus was in control, with arguments based on the quality of the list we're looking at rather than on whether the lists should be kept at all. I'd call that progress. It's been suggested to Leuko that rather than nominating 50 of these lists at once, he nominate about 10 at once. That may be a good thing to keep the pressure on and keep editors' minds focused on coming to a consensus. 3280:(or could be), these particular lists are unlikely to be. The first type of argument calls for a central discussion. We'll always have the second type of argument, but we can concentrate on it better (or avoid it entirely) if we decide on the first. If we have a general policy for allowing these lists or deleting them all, then we avoid the feeling among some that their ethnic group's list was deleted for bigoted reasons while others were kept. This is an important goal. By concentrating on (2)-type arguments, we decrease tensions, focus the deletion discussions and encourage editors to improve the articles with adequate sourcing, contextual information, etc. 3210:

deleted. Just because a list of African Americans may be kept doesn't mean we should go and create a list of Fijian Serbs - the ethnic group is not notable and there's no notable Fijian Serbs to the the best of my knowledge. On the other hand, African American is a notable ethnic group and there are plenty of notable African Americans. It's a very simple concept. If a topic is notable, it should be kept. If another topic is not notable, it should be deleted. That's one of the main reasons why the earlier mass deletion AfDs failed to reach deletion.

4218:(which is admittedly pretty incomplete). Without the super-list, we lose some navigability for the sub-lists. So should we look at deleting sublists like these, too? In general, I find lists easier to navigate than categories - categories are limited by allowing viewing of only 200 per page, lists often include things like tribal membership or dates of birth so I can see which persons I might be interested in, lists aren't as often recursive like categories can be, lists are easier to maintain as new additions show up in watchlists. 4171:- Yes, I'm commenting on the contributor. My eyes did not lie when I saw these notations on the editors' user pages, and neither did they when I saw articles deleted against clear consensus to not delete. Some of the pages deleted were among the best referenced of all of them, containing over 100 footnotes to reliable sources. The pages were not "crappy" (and I do take offense at this implication!). Do not continue doing your best to destroy others' research materials, which are impeccably sourced and notable. 4392:

see how a German father and an Irish-American mother makes you German-American. So here's a question: can requirements be binding on future editors? Or does consensus change? If a decision here is not binding, then I wash my hands of the whole thing. With explicit definitions, I'd go with Keep. Without, it's a Delete. References alone don't solve the problem - the Betty Grable example above is a classic. Nor does the structure of the Dutch American page resolve my issues with these lists.

4114:-Americans, then such a list is not merited. The fact is, our editors--particularly the long-time ones--are generally quite reasonable, and thus the lists are on the whole well constructed and helpful to our users, each focusing on a notable ethnic groups in the United States. If there were no notable individuals from that ethnic community, the article would not exist, or it should be deleted. Reasonableness must prevail in all instances, in everything we do. 3840:. If articles for those two were created, would they pass the notability requirements for them to be kept? And the question really is, if an ethnic group is definitely notable, why should a list of notable people from that ethnic group be deleted? That the ethnic group is notable would mean that the list is not just a list of loose association, and of the lists that I've looked at, they do not offer the type of information noted in 53:. However, lists of other ethnic groups have been kept, leading to a piecemeal and inconsistent treatment of lists with the exact same functions and merits. I propose attempting to determine a consensus as to whether lists of Americans by ethnic group are appropriate for Knowledge (XXG) or not, and then applying any action to the group of lists en-masse, i.e. either mass deletion or restoration of all lists of this type. 4049:- Right: Zhongguonese are more important than Hmong, etc. We've heard it all before. I don't agree at all with this. If I want to determine who are the prominent Hmong, or Vietnamese Americans, or Laotian Americans, or whatever, all on one page and listed by occupation, I should be able to do that at Knowledge (XXG). The attempt to blank this content is extremely damaging to our project and not helpful to our users. 5742:, each one complementing the other. For example, since editors differ in style, some favor building lists while others favor building categories, allowing links to be gathered in two different ways, with lists often leapfrogging categories, and vice versa. One should not be deleted in favor of the other. Instead, each should be used to update the other. This provides two core methods of navigating Knowledge (XXG). 3185:. In that sense, they are all the same and should be either all deleted or kept. Individual lists could still undergo AfD, however, I don't see any lists of Fijian Serbs being discussed. Can you demonstrate to me how a list of Asian Americans is any different than a list of English Americans or Norwegian Americans? They are essentially the same and should be treated as such when discussing global policies like 3919:- Good. If you'll devote your energies to creating great content, improving existing articles that need it, and working to delete non-notable articles--and not on removing articles that, as it has repeatedly been pointed out by numerous long-time and productive editors, are of immense use in locating important information regarding individuals from various ethnic groups in the United States, that would be great. 4936:" However, despite the supposed endorsement at DRV, it is quite clear that these arguments, no matter how convincing, or "rooted in policy", certain people might find them, do not represent a consensus interpretation of Knowledge (XXG) policy. The policy does not clearly prohibit lists of this type, or they would all be deleted. All of the deleted lists noted above should thus be restored for this reason, per 4294:

actually argue the rationale raised in the AfD/DRV, I see no reason why we should feel bound by them. The closing rationale is the opinion of one admin (who, in my opinion, substituted his own rationale instead of evaluating the consensus of the discussion). And the opinions of admins aren't any more valuable than those of regular editors, anyway. Hell, I'm an admin, and I think he was wrong. -

3858:

example, a list of Fijian Serbs, or a list of Czech Laotians, or a list of Japanese Ethiopians, etc etc. In other words, you're basically pushing for two options where one of the options is obviously unattainable, thereby really pushing for one thing only - that they all be deleted. But it still remains that there's no good reason why we should limit ourselves to deleting all or keeping all.

4402:(edit conflict) Well, then what makes a Jewish American? Do both parents have to be Jewish, only one, or do converts count? It is only ethnic Jews or anybody practicing the religion? I don't think that list is any different from the others - it still suffers from ambiguity of definition. I completely agree that a policy should be developed with explicit inclusion criteria and a requirement for 4555:. The lists work fine because those editors working on them are knowledgeable, skilled, and reasonable, and always try to improve the lists so that they include only notable individuals, and that all lists are carefully sourced. Any problems with the lists can be continually improved, as we do with any other article. No need to delete the articles entirely, which is unhelpful to our users. 4780:

Americans was deleted, so should all these other lists be deleted as well? Now I am not that familiar with the topic of German Americans, so I'm not going to comment on the justifiability of that list having been deleted. But the discussion on whether to keep or delete one article shouldn't be dependent on another article. There's no policy basis on that to the best of my knowledge.

5131:, with the caveat that it is not necessary for there to be a one-size fits all approach. While there should be a single set of clear and specific criteria for what makes a group notable and a list appropriate in the first place, after that there is no reason that the criteria for who is listed must be exactly the same for each group. It might be entirely reasonable, for instance, if " 4656:. Categories do not provide sufficient data such as birth dates, death dates, occupations, etc. Lists are extremely useful for reasearch for individuals seeking particular "X-Americans" to compare and contrast and garner some insight into other prominent members of a particular ethnic background. I also think these nominations for deletions were made for an obstructionist 3326:

should stay and some should go. WP is not out to be sensitive to everybody's needs, and it's not like we're making attack pages here. If one topic is notable, it should be kept. If another topic is not notable, then it should be deleted. It's as simple as that. And that's exactly why mass deletion AfDs on these lists failed in the first place.

3159:

necessary. However, African Americans is a notable ethnic demographic, making a list of African Americans notable and not simply a list of loosely associated items. Now, these lists have already been through mass deletion AfDs, and the result was kept. I don't see what's changed that we need to bring up a mass deletion debate again.

4184:. I never said that these lists were crappy, nor that they should be deleted. In fact, I would be perfectly fine with restoring the deleted lists as an obvious miscarriage of consensus and common sense. But I just feel that all the lists should be held to the same standards, and not be subject to piecemeal deletion or restoration. 5769:

Agree with DHowell that lists and categories are not mutually exclusive, and can be complimentary. Lists can contain redlinks to articles that do not yet exist. Categories cannot be watched. They have different properties, and serve different purposes, and the idea that one trumps the other is one of

5520:

Again, I can't speak for those lists that were deleted. I can't even tell what the reasons were that the closing admins deleted three of them. As for the German American list, whether or not it really is a list of loosely associated items (per deleting admin), I personally do not know, but for many

4812:

You keep mentioning the German American list as if I agree with its deletion, but I have never said I support its deletion, nor have I voted to delete it. I repeat - I do not know enough about that ethnic cross section to say whether or not the list should have been deleted. If you believe it needs

4779:

are not all notable - I'm not familiar with many of those ethnic groups so I don't know. But I don't even understand why we should frame the discussion of one particular list in the context of the notability of another list. For example, one of the arguments presented here is that: a list of German

4433:

I would suggest coming to a consensus on the criteria for inclusion on a project-wide level. Doing things list by list is why we have the mess we currently have. I mean there could be exceptions, but I don't see how a 1/8 Swedish American is any more worthy of inclusion in a list than a 1/8 Chinese

4423:

It is not a question of "what makes you a German-American?" but rather, what are the limits for inclusion on the list. For groups that would potentially have thousands of notable people, it makes sense to establish limits. For example: 1st generation immigrant, at least 1 parent is a first generation

3857:

to be kept - but that makes no sense whatsoever because such a list would not be notable enough to be kept. It's almost a strawman argument to say that we should either keep all or delete all, because keeping all would allow for all kinds of ridiculous lists which obviously have no place on WP - for

5697:

What do you sugest we do, then? Most of the arguments made in those AfDs were also made in the AfDs of the lists that were deleted. None of the arguments seem to be able to sway the deletionists. We are trying to come up with a consensus that is clearer than what is already in policy and guidelines,

5510:

reasons. The current status, however, is that we have some lists deleted and some lists kept, where there is no discernable difference between the lists other than who participated in and closed the respective deletion discussions. I believe, and I hope you would too, that this is just not right and

5402:

Honestly, I can't figure out what valid arguments the closing admins used to delete those lists other than the list of German Americans, which the admin specifically cites as a list of loosely-associated subjects. I have no idea if he is correct in that assessment, but if an ethnic cross section is

5337:

I respectfully disagree. Each list needs to be evaluated on a case-to-case basis. Just because one is notable, doesn't make all similar lists notable, and vice versa. The example ethnic cross sections mentioned by this proposal points this out. Just because "African American" is a notable ethnic

5085:

should be developed to: 1) Determine if an ethnic group is sufficently large and notable enough to warrant a separate list. 2) Determine notability criteria for individuals added to the lists. 3) Determine criteria related to ethnicity, i.e. how ethnic does one have to be to be included on a list of

4960:

This is unmaintainable because we can have possibly tens of thousands of ethnic cross sections. It will also probably violate existing WP policies on notability and verifiability because there will be theoretical ethnic cross sections that have never been written about. Each of these lists need to

4231:

is structured by field), I see no reason why such a list should be deleted. Certainly there are lists here that serve no purpose and just duplicate categories. Those should be deleted or restructured. Preferably the latter. Looking at WP:NOT, I don't see anything under the directory listing that

4152:

Again, you are commenting on the contributor, rather than the content, but I guess I have to say it again. There is a lot of crap on WP - from nn autobiographies to corporate spam. This, and any other violation of WP policy is what I feel we should delete. I am not hellbent on deletion and do not

3978:

should be evaluated on a case by case basis. They are all essentially the same in purpose and content, and as such should be evaluated en-masse. Otherwise, we end up with the mess that we have now - some lists being kept and others deleted, even though they have the same merits, and the groups are

3898:

above. No one is suggesting giving a carte-blanche to lists of Fijian Serbs or the like, and to suggest such is ridiculous. And since you keep brining it up, multiple lists of notable people from notable ethnic groups did get deleted (while others remain), so notability obviously isn't the issue.

3325:

these lists. By the very fact that some of these ethnic demographics are notable, it makes them not simple lists of loose associations or trivial ethnic cross-sections. Nor do these list offer contact information or other consumer-related information. I absolutely believe that some of these lists

5529:

articles. You apply the same standards, and some articles are deleted while others are kept. I really don't know enough about Norwegian Americans to say whether or not I think that list should be kept or deleted. If you believe it needs to be restored, then take it to DRV. However, just because

5163:

mean that all the lists presented at the top of this discussion will be kept, but it would prevent possibly non-notable lists from being created and kept, such as lists of Fijian Serbs, Ethiopian Japanese, Botswanian Malays, Argentine Zambian, etc, or any number of probably non-notable ethnic cross

4706:

The issue with evaluating on a case by case basis is what are the criteria? I see a similar issue to the situation with populated places where who is to say that a village in Africa is more or less notable than a suburb in North America? Since there are numerous books on the topics of ethnic groups

4386:

I have come down on the side of deletion on these pages. My problem is definition. If there is not explicit definition, you're creating grab-bag lists and asking for edit wars. Regarding Noroton's suggestions right above me, two issues come up. First, Jewish American musicians is entirely different

3771:

So on and so forth. But perhaps Michelle Kwan is an easy one. If you've read any published literature on specific ethnic groups at all, you'd see that they mention the names of notable people in the ethnic group and discuss what these people have done to be notable. This is why I've said that if

5392:

of the ethnic American lists being discussed here. Even if each list should be evaulated on a case-by-case basis, it doesn't justify the arbitrary deletion of lists for which all the same arguments were made, and there was no congnizable reason given as to what makes the deleted articles different

4753:

so I am familiar with it. There are sufficient books written about various ethnic groups in the U.S. to support all of the major ethnic groups. The question then becomes is it useful to dicker over the relative notability of the smaller ethnic groups to try to draw an arbitrary line that will just

4391:

I believe that without explicit definitions, these lists all fail. Every entry needs a reference or it gets deleted. and there should be an explicit limit on membership. German American Immmigrants is a good definition. Maybe two German-American immigrant parents makes you German-American. I can't

4293:

The participants in that AfD and subsequent DRV do not represent general consensus. While we should certainly consider what happened, we are not bound by that precedent. I'm making a policy argument here. If you, or anybody disagree with it, I'd welcome discussion. But unless somebody wants to

4017:

other existing policies?) While deleting all of them would entail we delete lists for ethnic groups like African Americans or Native Americans that have been thoroughly written about. It's perfectly and entirely possible to apply existing policy evenly and we come out with some lists deleted and

3571:

is not a problem, then that's one argument that can't be used by editors or closing admins in deletion discussions (other arguments will still be used). Another option is to specifically write into that policy that ethnic group lists are forbidden. Either way, we stop the constant discussions over

3376:

My point is that the interpretation is out there and it's being used by closing admins to delete. If you don't change the policy, you'll face the consequences of Leuko or someone else eventually nominating the list you like and a closing admin like Neil or someone else deciding that policy demands

3279:

You can split the arguments for deleting these lists into two types: (1) the general argument that none of these lists should remain because they will never be up to Knowledge (XXG) standards; (2) specific arguments that particular lists should go because, while other lists are up to our standards

5550:

Exactly, DHowell. I have made this point, multiple times, but we just seem to be going around in circles. If some of these lists are determined to be lists of loosely associated items, then all these lists are loosely associated. A list of Dutch or Asian Americans is no more tightly associated

3953:

evenly and we come out with some lists deleted and others kept. If ethnicity X is not notable and nobody gives a damn that a group of notable people are of that ethnicity, then what we've got is a loosely associated list. But some of these ethnicities listed here have been written about and are

3158:

be deleted or kept. The fact is, some of these lists should be kept, and others may need to be deleted. As an example, I don't think the ethnic demographic of "Fijian Serbs" is notable to the best of my knowledge, and there aren't any notable Fijian Serb. A list of Fijian Serbs is probably not

4907:

as to general principle regarding over cross-categorization. However, regarding lists deleted, I would only endorse restoration if the only reason they were deleted was that it was an over cross-categorization. If they were delted because they were unstructured and redundant, for example, they

4443:

Actually, I take back my suggestions. The problem is that not all of the lists are comparable. For example, German American is a "nation + America" identity, whereas Hmong American is a "ethnicity + American" identity. We also have "continent + American" and "region + identity." I doubt we could

4262:

I really disagree with that rationale. What's the over-cross categorization here? Ethicity and nationality? Here, the groups are inherently notable. (I could find plenty of sources talking specifically about the Chinese-american community, for example). Over cross-categorization is when you

3541:

justification for deletion could just as easily be applied to all "List of ..." pages. In that sense, I find it to be faulty. While lists can be difficult to maintain, those issues should be addressed for each list (not solved by deleting all of them.) As for the "use a category" argument: lists

5423:

Exactly. I don't think anyone here is arguing for the retention of truly non-notable ethnic categorizations; the problem is the arbitrary deletion of lists of ethnic groups which are clearly notable. This also illustrates the utter failure of the AfD and DRV proceses as currently implemented to

5679:

I believe the proposals above are too limited in scope and do not address many of the problems with retention/deletion of ethnic group lists. Specifically, they do not address many of the assertions made by the deletionists. Perhaps looking at some of the arguments made in articles that were

4444:

agree on the same standards of inclusion for each group. We might, however, be able to set up guidelines for inclusion like: long lists should be divided into more detailed categories (e.g. "List of African American Composers"), or famous people who have a distant <insert ethnicity here: -->

3472:

votes at some of these AfDs would mean there is no consensus. In fact, the mere fact that I am against mass deleting all these lists means there's no consensus. Those AfDs and DRVs need to be examined individually. Some of them may have been closed correctly, others may not have been closed

4479:

The problem of whether so-and-so are "German American" or "Jewish American" or etc etc is a simple one to solve - have a particular individual been referred to or labeled as "German American" by sources? If not, they shouldn't be on the list. Note that I'm not talking about whether or not a

3792:

The question at hand is not whether certain ethnic groups or members of those ethnic groups are notable or not. I think it's rather obvious that all the ethnic groups listed above are notable. However, the question is whether lists of loosely-associated people (i.e. they only share the same

3710:

which isn't even limited to "Americans," a feature that does not ease navigation. It has no information in it, other than an extremely short intro sentence, so it fails that point, too. It could possibly assist in the development section: if a category is not included on the page, then it, if

3209:

to having achieved consensus to delete. I don't know anything about English Americans or Norwegian Americans, maybe they are notable ethnic groups, or maybe they're not. My example of "Fijian Serbs" vs African Americans perfectly illustrates how some of these lists should be kept and others

5453:

the lists above, which is why I have to emphatically say that each of the lists need to be examined on a case-by-case basis. Like I said, for example, I have no idea if the deletion of the German American list was really justifiable. Maybe it deserved to be deleted, or maybe it needs to be

4091:

Like I said before, no one has the opinion that we should give carte-blanche to create any list that would be in violation of deletion policies. But do you honestly think that the deleted lists are any less notable or more in violation of deletion policy than the lists that are being kept?

3303:

as prohibiting these kinds of lists. Everyone should see his reasoning there (which looks pretty solid to me). These lists will all eventually go as Neil or other closing admins (using Neil's reasoning as a model or precedent) declare that deletion arguments are more closely tied to existing

4106:- The articles under consideration deal with notable ethnic groups. The solution is very simple, and it does not involve blanking or deletion. If there are fewer than 10 notable individuals in a particular ethnic group, such as Hmong, the list of notable individuals could be merged into the 3404:

article may be subjected to. Some editor may decide s/he doesn't like an article and nominate it for deletion, then a closing admin may decide to delete it for whatever reason. There're already policies which dictate which lists should be deleted and which should be kept. Verifiability,

3390:

or other WP policies, they will just keep getting deleted/restored in a patchwork fashion, and this does not benefit the project. It only will it become more of a mess than it already is, especially since the reasoning to delete the lists already deleted applies equally to all the lists.

5037:. Therefore, the lists mentioned above, being lists of notable people in notable ethnic groups which did not demonstrably violate any other policies as determined by their respective AfD discussions, should be kept, and the recently deleted lists mentioned above should be restored. 4353:

I agree. If we can't get consensus that broad ethnic-group lists like "List of German Americans" should stay or go, we could probably come to consensus that ethnic group sublists should stay, especially if they include information that couldn't go into the equivalent category.

3304:

Knowledge (XXG) policy. These admins will be fully within their authority to decide to delete even when a majority of the editors in the discussion favors keeping the article. It will be slow and painful. That's the reality. However, if most editors want to change the rules at

3848:

of them, and in doing so ignoring the fact that it's entirely possible that some of these ethnic groups are notable and others are not? I mean, not all ethnic cross sections are going to be notable. Let's say hypothetically that we arrive at consensus that we should keep

3983:

says, "If we have a general policy for allowing these lists or deleting them all, then we avoid the feeling among some that their ethnic group's list was deleted for bigoted reasons while others were kept." You can't seriously opine that the 6 lists that were deleted per

5521:

of the lists mentioned here, I do not believe they are loosely associated items for the fact that their ethnic cross sections are notable. And again, whether or not one list was deleted should have no bearing on another list. Equally applying existing WP standards

3638:

My guess is that the most common future vision is that of the mergists. My future vision is generally at odds with theirs, becasue I think, without realizinzing its implications, they want to artificially confine the wikipeida withing the limits imposed on paper

5252:

Lists being examined individually (as in the past) has led to sporadic and uneven application of WP policies, which has resulted in many lists being deleted which are essentially the same as those being kept. As mentioned in Proposal 1, only groups notable per

5195:

to the extent that aside from general principles established by proposals 1 and 2, there may be other reasons (lack of structure) for lists such as these to be deleted. In general, however, Proposal 2 should cover issues such as the notability of Fijian Serbs.

3831:

of these ethnic groups to arrive at the conclusion that it's "obvious" that all these ethnic groups are notable? Because I certainly am not personally sure that they all are notable. I haven't clicked on all the lists, but for example, there's no article for

3455:. It appears to me that the closing admin's reasoning could be used in any deletion discussion for an ethnic group list. While it's true that even if we changed that policy, other objections pointing to other policies could be made in deletion discussions, the 5303:

Here's an obvious hint - don't nominate any of these lists for deletion until you actually have a convincing argument for deletion. And no, the fact that the German American list was deleted does not automatically mean any other lists should be deleted.

5822:

I created this page and other individuals have added to it. I feel that if the page is expanded so that it is not merely a list, and if it is refined, it will be a major contribution to wikipedia. I would argue similarly for all other list-like articles.

5598:; therefore that is not a valid policy reason to delete these lists. Only if there is consensus that a specific list violates policies in a way that can be distinguished from other lists of this type in general, should a list be, or remain, deleted. This 4802:

Once again, the rationale used to deleted the List of German Americans (and others) directly applies to all the other lists, as they are all essentially the cross-categorizations. German-Americans are no more a cross-categorization than Asian-Americans.

3180:

Actually, the result of the multiple article nomination was no-consensus, which defaults to keep, but really isn't some overwhelming mandate from the masses. Secondly, the discussion should focus around whether these types of lists are violations of

4058:

What the hell is "Zhongguonese"? I've never heard of this before. And I actually voted keep on the lists for Hmong American, Vietnamese American, and Laotian American. Like I said, evaluate each list on its own merits. To advocate that we should

3258:

This is not a mas AfD. It is a discussion as to the appropriateness of including these lists in WP. Possible outcomes include deletion if a consensus exists that the lists are in violation of WP policy, or the restoration of deleted lists if not.

4623:. The arguments for deletion are a gross abuse of WP process, trying to prove things by selective citation and misinterpretation of WP standards and guidelines, and an affront to the editors who spent their time creating and editing these lists. 4366:

is structured would probably get consensus support as well. It's essentially the same thing as List of Jewish American musicians, except it's a bunch of lists like that combined. Similarly, lists by ethnic group could be replaced by something like

5007:

Do you believe that AfD and DRV are a perfect representation of "community conensus"? Can you demonstrate what distinguishes the deleted lists from all of the lists which were kept by "community consensus", other than simply their AfD closures?

4143:- Yes, it's clear that most of those deletes, against consensus, of well-sourced pages were an aberration and perpetrated by editors with strong "delete" POV, as clearly stated on their user pages. I beleve you have such a statement on yours? 4928:. All of the deleted lists above are for groups which are notable, and the lists had numerous citations. The admin who closed to delete most of the deleted lists believed that the arguments to keep arguments only justified the article (e.g. 3437:

And the lists that have been deleted already have had their deletion endorsed (without any comment from the closing admin despite a lack of consensus). Therefore, consensus must be that all these lists should be deleted as a violation of

4981:

Hence the requirement that the groups be notable in the proposal. I think we can all agree that the groups listed above are all notable. As has been mentioned many times, this is not a blanket permission for lists of Fijian Serbs, etc.

3932:, and am in fact a long-time, productive contributor myself? While I am not convinced of the ultimate usefulness of these lists vs. categories, I would support keeping them if consensus and WP policies are applied to them all evenly. 5365: 3546:: lists are better for navigation, development, and organization -- ".. having both a list and a similar category is not necessarily redundant." Perhaps a project could be started to establish guidelines for inclusion, format, etc. 4932:) and not the list. This fails to address however, that if notability and reliable sources can't be used to justify a list, what can? The admin didn't state which of the delete arguments convinced him, simply noting that he was " 4775:. And it's a move that'll basically come back to bite us in the butt if lists of non-notable ethnic groups are created and editors object to them because of any number of policies. This is not to say that the lists presented 5605:

would prevent possibly non-notable lists from being created and kept, such as lists of Fijian Serbs, Ethiopian Japanese, Botswanian Malays, Argentine Zambian, etc, or any number of probably non-notable ethnic cross sections.

4833:

Actually I have mentioned a lot of lists (7, I believe) which have been deleted for various reasons, which are identical in all respects to the lists which everyone is so rabid about keeping. I fail to see the dichotomy.

3634:

So, is this a forum where we are going to discuss the pros and cons of the competing, incompatible visions of the wikipedia's future. Or are we going to discuss these articles solely based on their merits? Is this even

4724:

The criteria are the same with evaluating any article on WP. If a certain African village has been written about by reliable sources, then that certain African village is notable enough to have an article. Please read

4993:

The deleted lists went through an AFD, which reached a community consensus to delete them. Therefore, they should not be restored. Most of the other lists are just encyclopedia unnotable as the ones that were deleted.

4315:, in fact their opinions are more important than a regular user's. So if the consensus here is that the closure of these AfD's and endorsement of deletion without comment at DRV are wrong, where does that leave us? 4671:

Again, not an AfD, but I don't think trying to apply WP policies evenly is obstructionist. I would be fine with restoring the deleted lists, as this would be more egalitarian, but no one suggested that until today.

1557: 1552: 4566:

Actually, a majority of the lists are not referenced, contain non-notable individuals, and worse yet, contain uncited people with no reference to their ethnicity/heritage in their WP article. Would you consider

1561: 5638:

mean that all the lists presented at the top of this discussion will be kept" should be removed, as I fail to see the difference between the deleted lists and the kept lists presented on the top of this page.

4410:, and they could be global for all lists of this type. I mean the consensus the exact criteria may change (i.e. 1/2 vs. 1/4), but that's WP. If we come to a consensus that these lists are not a violation of 4424:

immigrant, or if their ethnic/nationality identity is part of what makes them notable. Perhaps these standards could be agreed upon at the project level or they could be determined on a list by list basis.

1544: 3605:

IMO, the root cause of most of these breaches of civility can be traced to the wikipedia's lack of a place for the discussion of the pros and cons of competing alternate visions of the wikipedia's future.

5779:

My friend, you have worded in a few sentences what many users have being trying to argue in AfDs time and time again. With your permission, I'd like to use your argument against users who simply state

5681: 5376: 5685: 4865:

Rather than going around in circles, I would like to suggest the following proposals in an attempt to gauge where we are in regards to consensus. Feel free to add comments, or your own proposal.

3242: 5381: 4571:

instruction creep? We really should have some standards of encyclopedic objectivity, rather than a free-for-all. But this is straying from the original issue as to whether these lists violate

3949:

of all these lists, it's fine. These lists need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Not all admins are going to agree on how to close a specific AfD. But it's entirely possible to apply

3572:

these lists and we (for the most part) stop the piecemeal deleting from take place in which one ethnic group is represented while another isn't -- which I think makes Knowledge (XXG) look bad.

5371: 3560: 3452: 3296: 5342:

deleted. I am neutral to their deletion because I don't know enough about those ethnic cross sections. If editors believe they should have been kept, then take them individually to DRV.

4009:

a mess that some lists are deleted while others are not. Keeping all of them would entail that we also allow a list for something like "Fijian Serb" or "Japanese Ethiopian" to be kept,

5794:

You of course have my permission, and you didn't even need to ask for it: all original content submitted to Knowledge (XXG), including talk page comments, is licensed under the

5338:

cross section, that doesn't automatically make "Fijian Serb" a notable ethnic cross section. But again, this is not a comment on what I think of the lists mentioned here that

4328:

I'm not sure what the question is. We should evaluate and discuss the policy. We just shouldn't obsess about what Neil thinks about it. If he wants to participate, he can. -

3878:

Again, you seem to be missing the crux of the discussion. The articles were not deleted because of a lack of notability of the ethnic groups, they were deleted for violating

5590:

Each list may be examined on its own merits according to existing policies regarding if it should be kept or deleted. However, there is no consensus that lists of this type

3929: 3498: 4456:

They are all hertiages, and I fail to see the difference between the groups. For example, you can be 1/8 Dutch or 1/8 Hmong. (i.e. both with some relative of that group).

3676:

Those were included in the original List of Portuguese Americans AfD, so I included them. I did not go out and search for these lists. One can see how a list of <x: -->

5123: 3772:

an ethnic designation is notable, then a list of notable people in that ethnic group is not just a list of loose association and is notable enough in itself to be kept.

2661: 2656: 499: 494: 4998: 3029: 3024: 2665: 2615: 2610: 1540: 503: 5724: 4611:- Improve, don't delete. We must exercise reasonableness in everything we do. The deletion of several articles, one of which had over 100 footnotes, is unreasonable. 5208:

if it is made clear that arguments which would apply against the very existence of all lists of this type are not acceptable reasons to delete (we could add them to

3559:

is a style guideline and if a list meets every one of its suggestions that list can still be deleted for the same reasons Neil, the closing admin, used to close the

3417:

delete the list, simply because it is within their editing powers to do so. That's why there's a deletion review process that is available to undelete an article.

3033: 2983: 2978: 2891: 2886: 2619: 2385: 2380: 1649: 1644: 821: 816: 775: 770: 683: 678: 591: 586: 269: 264: 5750:

The "category camp" shouldn't dismantle Knowledge (XXG)'s list-based navigation system, and the "list camp" shouldn't tear down Knowledge (XXG)'s category system.

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these cross categorisations are encyclopedic. That would allow for lists of ethnic cross sections that may never have been written about, and thus violating

3174: 2970: 2941: 2878: 2803: 2527: 2431: 2426: 2372: 2293: 2288: 2247: 2242: 2205: 2159: 2113: 2063: 2058: 2017: 2012: 1883: 1837: 1787: 1782: 1745: 1695: 1690: 1636: 1465: 1460: 1373: 1368: 1331: 1147: 963: 917: 808: 762: 670: 578: 549: 256: 5218:-Americans", "we shouldn't be categorizing people by ethnicity", "this list includes non-notable people", "this list includes people who are only <n: --> 3121: 3116: 3075: 3070: 2845: 2840: 2740: 2694: 2569: 2564: 2464: 2435: 2326: 2297: 2251: 2067: 2021: 1958: 1912: 1791: 1699: 1603: 1598: 1511: 1506: 1469: 1406: 1377: 1268: 1222: 1176: 1097: 1092: 1051: 1046: 992: 440: 394: 361: 356: 302: 118: 72: 3125: 3079: 2924: 2849: 2786: 2573: 2510: 2188: 2142: 2096: 1866: 1820: 1728: 1607: 1515: 1314: 1130: 1101: 1055: 946: 900: 637: 632: 532: 365: 223: 218: 177: 172: 57: 4754:

become a battle-front. Or do we just group the references generically and say that these cross categorizations are encyclopedic and avoid the nonsense.

3763: 5494:

of theses lists should be deleted. If the reasons are not valid, then those lists that were deleted should be restored. Seriously, if you can think of

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would not, I'd love to hear them. This has no bearing on whether there might be some lists above that were not deleted which should be deleted for

871: 624: 210: 164: 5486:

of the lists above. You even seem to have acknowledged this. The point that I think Leuko is trying to make (and if not, then it is a point that

5482:

of the ones that were not deleted), and read their deletion debates. As far as I can tell the reasons given for deletion would equally apply to

3602:

These lapses are so common they are routine. These breaches are so common that discussions where everyone complies with policy are exceptional.

5652:

of the lists above which were not deleted (have they all been through AfD?) to see if they are indeed notable. I do agree that the lists which

5445:

be kept. Firstly, I find it difficult to believe that he's actually done all the reading and researching to figure out that absolutely either

3712: 17: 854: 3154:- I see no such concensus to delete each and every single one of these lists, and I whole-heartedly disagree with the idea that they should 3707: 1548: 5698:

so that inconsistent results based on who happens to close the discussion can be avoided (and possibly fixed). How do we accomplish that?

5530:

that list is deleted, does not automatically mean all the lists mentioned above should be deleted. There's no basis in policy for that.

5362:

HongQiGong, I would strongly recommend you actually read the AfD's which led to the deletion of the lists noted above which were deleted:

4110:

article and a redirect from "List of Hmong Americans" to that section. If an ethnic group has no individuals of note in the U.S., such as

3745: 5714:. It seems ridiculous to have articles on 'list of group X' when there are already categories for group X, which have generated lists. 3890:

or the deleted lists should be restored since the deletion reasoning was false. We should first decide the correct interpretation of

2652: 729: 724: 490: 5270:

Which would basically render Proposal 1 pointless, because we'd have to apply notability tests on each of these lists individually.

4484:

have been said to be German, but whether or not the person himself/herself have been referred to as specifically "German American".

4551:- Those are good observations which have not been raised before, but the apparent need to "do something" about the lists represents 4359: 4211: 3568: 3020: 2606: 733: 5540: 5464: 5413: 5352: 5314: 5280: 5182: 5159:

Each list needs to be examined on its own merits according to existing policies regarding if it should be kept or deleted. This

4971: 4823: 4790: 4739: 4696: 4594: 4494: 4081: 4028: 3964: 3868: 3782: 3483: 3427: 3366: 3336: 3220: 3169: 2974: 2882: 2376: 1640: 766: 674: 582: 260: 3715:

mentions that a list of people should be composed of articles on people who are notable just for being (blank), and not notable

5802: 5789: 5774: 5762: 5718: 5702: 5692: 5660: 5643: 5626: 5555: 5545: 5515: 5469: 5428: 5418: 5397: 5357: 5332: 5319: 5298: 5285: 5261: 5240: 5228: 5200: 5187: 5143: 5111: 5099: 5065: 5057: 4986: 4976: 4948: 4912: 4899: 4869: 4838: 4828: 4807: 4795: 4758: 4744: 4719: 4701: 4676: 4664: 4646: 4627: 4615: 4599: 4579: 4559: 4529: 4499: 4460: 4449: 4438: 4428: 4418: 4396: 4379: 4375:

which are essentially lists of lists. Alternatively, you could replace these last two with categories if that were appropriate.

4332: 4319: 4298: 4284: 4267: 4249: 4236: 4222: 4215: 4188: 4175: 4161: 4147: 4131: 4118: 4096: 4086: 4053: 4033: 3992: 3969: 3936: 3923: 3903: 3873: 3820: 3807: 3787: 3730: 3690: 3671: 3646: 3580: 3550: 3509: 3488: 3463: 3446: 3432: 3395: 3381: 3371: 3341: 3312: 3284: 3263: 3253: 3225: 3193: 2744: 2698: 2468: 2330: 1962: 1916: 1272: 1226: 1180: 996: 716: 444: 398: 306: 122: 76: 4686:

of these lists and avoid mass deletion. Evaluate them on a case-by-case basis, as some are notable while others may not be.

5217:

because they are indiscriminate, trivial, loosely associated, etc.", "unmaintainable because there are millions of <X: -->

2790: 2514: 2192: 2146: 2100: 1870: 1824: 1732: 1318: 1134: 950: 904: 536: 51: 5212:). This would include reasons such as "this is what categories are for", "there is no way to determine who is an <X: --> 4887:. Therefore, the lists mentioned above should be kept, and the recently deleted lists mentioned above should be restored. 3719:(blank). In this, I think that nearly every ethnic and sub-ethnic group list could eventually fall. How can you prove that 5403:

notable, that would make a list of people in that ethnic cross section not a simple list of loosely-associated subjects.

5388:

Your point might be valid if you could find the arguments to delete in those discussions which would not apply equally to

3377:

that list be deleted. And it won't matter if you have a majority or mabye even a big majority in the deletion discussion.

2644: 2422: 2284: 2238: 2054: 2008: 1778: 1686: 1456: 1364: 482: 4552: 3468:

Consensus means everybody involved in a discussion agrees not to oppose a certain action. The mere fact that there were

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is basically a strawman argument, because it's absurd to keep each and every single list of ethnic cross section that

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I have on idea. I was not involved in those AfDs. My point remains - there's no good reason to enforce a rule that

1410: 5033:) ethnic group are not non-encyclopedic cross-categorizations or lists of loosely associated topics as specified in 2928: 4372: 3703: 3238: 2736: 2690: 2460: 2322: 1954: 1908: 1402: 1264: 1218: 1172: 988: 436: 390: 298: 114: 68: 5474:

Ok, I can't speak for Leuko, but I agree with you that lists should be considered on a case-by-case basis. But, I

5424:

handle controversial cases like this, which is another discussion that needs to happen, but not necessarily here.

4772: 4712: 3112: 3751: 3678:

could be generalized to whatever consensus we reach here. Though for someone espousing the frequent breaches of

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As long as the list is structured in some way, serving a navigational and organizational purpose (like the way

4207: 3827:

Are all those ethnic groups really notable though? That's a genuine question. Did you actually do reading on

2414: 2276: 2230: 2046: 2000: 1770: 1678: 1448: 1356: 4013:

the fact that they would probably not pass a notability test (or are you suggesting we make policy that would

3459:

policy is the one where the "keep" side is weakest. Either change it or watch all the lists slowly be deleted.

4520:

That is something that we will have to hammer out, i.e. if one must specifically be referred to as <x: -->

3886:. This concept has a global bearing on all these lists - either they should all be deleted as violations of 3555:

This is not a deletion discussion and it won't have any effect (directly) on whether these lists stay or go.

3456: 3104: 5648:

Ok, I am striking out that phrase; however, my only reason for including it was because I have not examined

5511:

needs to be fixed. Since DRV has already failed to resolve this problem, we are now having this discussion.

5503: 5136: 4363: 4228: 3702:

mentions that lists should satisfy three criterea: Information, Navigation, and Development. The super-list

3567:

explicitly states that ethnic group lists are not considered a problem, the way that it already states that

3058: 2828: 2552: 1586: 1494: 1080: 1034: 344: 4726: 4263:

start narrowing the group by arbitrary characteristics, and end up with a more-or-less non-notable group. -

3854: 620: 206: 160: 5490:

am trying to make) is that if the reasons given for deleting the lists that were deleted are valid, then

3564: 3494: 4445:

relative but otherwise make no referenceable claim to an identity/heritage/etc. should not be included.

4245:

subsection 5, "Non-encyclopedic cross-categorizations", which I don't agree 100% in the application of.

5745: 5715: 5454:

un-deleted. I don't know. But what happens with one list should have no bearing on any other lists.

5120: 4995: 5536: 5460: 5409: 5348: 5310: 5276: 5237: 5178: 4967: 4819: 4786: 4735: 4692: 4590: 4490: 4077: 4024: 3960: 3864: 3778: 3727: 3479: 3423: 3362: 3332: 3216: 3205:

consensus to delete all of these lists. I don't see that anything has changed that'll bring us from

3165: 850: 4005:

more notable than others. Not all ethnic cross sections have the same notability merits, and it's

3803:

I think you underestimate the degree to which people are bound by ethnicity and a common culture. -

3356:

these lists should be either kept or deleted. They need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

3346:

Again, what makes the 6 deleted lists inappropriate for WP, whereas all the rest of them are fine?

720: 4609:

Keep all "List of X-Americans" articles under consideration and restore the ones that were deleted

3665:

List of Argentine Jews, List of Brazilian Jews, List of Chilean Jews, List of Latin American Jews.

4929: 3837: 4657: 3591:-- One of my biggest frustrations with the wikipedia is the frequent, very frequent lapses from 3556: 3543: 5449:

of the lists above are notable or non-notable. Secondly, I personally don't know enough about

5824: 3623:

In the interests of transparency I think participants in this discussion deserve to know that

3250: 5221: 3699: 5197: 5108: 4909: 4329: 4295: 4264: 4233: 3833: 3812:

No, I fully understand that, which is why I would like to hammer out a consensus on whether

3804: 5595: 5325: 5291: 5214: 5209: 5034: 4908:

should probably remain deleted or at least userfied and structured before being restored. -

4884: 4635: 4572: 4411: 4355: 4312: 4308: 4277: 4242: 4181: 4154: 3985: 3975: 3950: 3891: 3887: 3883: 3879: 3841: 3813: 3794: 3683: 3679: 3596: 3592: 3538: 3439: 3387: 3318: 3305: 3300: 3186: 3182: 41: 37: 33: 5785: 5680:

retained in the recent deletion round will help, in particular the arguments of Pia. See

5531: 5455: 5404: 5343: 5305: 5271: 5173: 5050: 4962: 4814: 4781: 4730: 4687: 4585: 4485: 4072: 4019: 3955: 3882:. Therefore this discussion was initiated to see if this was a correct interpretation of 3859: 3773: 3724: 3474: 3418: 3357: 3327: 3211: 3160: 4937: 4925: 4522: 4403: 3723:

is more important because she is Asian American than she would have been if she was not?—

4944:", not "if the particular closing adminsistrator is swayed by the arguments to delete". 4638:. Second of all, I fail to see how having objective criteria for inclusion, similar to 5525:

that some lists will be kept and others will be deleted - this is how WP functions for

5257:

would be permitted, and the non-notable cross-sections would not have their own lists.

5107:

1 and 2) should probably just be our standard notability criteria. Not sure about 3. -

4612: 4556: 4406:

or the addition gets deleted. The requirements can be binding, in a fashion similar to

4172: 4144: 4127:

Obviously, reasonableness has not been prevailing, hence the need for this discussion.

4115: 4107: 4050: 3920: 712: 5254: 5082: 5030: 5026: 4921: 4880: 4768: 4750: 4639: 4568: 4407: 4219: 3757: 3720: 3668: 3643: 5603:

mean that all the lists presented at the top of this discussion will be kept, but it

5799: 5771: 5759: 5699: 5657: 5623: 5512: 5425: 5394: 5225: 5140: 5054: 5009: 4945: 4755: 4716: 4393: 4376: 4276:

I don't particularly agree with the rationale either, but somehow it was upheld in

3980: 3895: 3577: 3573: 3506: 3502: 3460: 3378: 3309: 3281: 4001:

is not based in policy at all. The fact of the matter is that some ethnic groups

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The lists affected by this consensus would be: (Feel free to add if I missed any)

3442:, unless a different consensus emerges that both the AfD and DRV were incorrect. 5689: 5366:

Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/List of English Americans (2nd_nomination)

4707:

in the United States, the answer is to keep all and merge as appropriate. So if

4624: 40:

has recently endorsed that lists of Americans by ethnic group are violations of

4883:) Americans per ethnic group are not over cross-categorization as specified in 4584:

That's fine. That just says that these lists need improvement, not deletion.

3651:

Yes, I feel that articles which blatantly do not meet WP standards (especially

5640: 5619: 5552: 5434: 5329: 5295: 5258: 5096: 5062: 4983: 4934:

far more swayed by the arguments to delete, which are better rooted in policy.

4896: 4866: 4835: 4804: 4673: 4661: 4643: 4576: 4526: 4457: 4446: 4435: 4425: 4415: 4316: 4281: 4246: 4185: 4158: 4128: 4093: 3989: 3933: 3900: 3817: 3798: 3687: 3624: 3547: 3443: 3392: 3347: 3260: 3190: 54: 3292: 3974:

I wholeheartedly disagree that on the issue of whether these lists violate

3711:

notable, could be created (such as "African American inventors"). However,

4180:

Ok, you really need to take a deep breath and read what I wrote while not

4018:

some kept. That's how the rest of WP has functioned since its creation!

3844:. More importantly, why should we make a policy to either delete or keep 3736:

On the notability of Michelle Kwan being Chinese American/Asian American:

3999:

avoid the feeling among some that their ethnic groups list was deleted...

3409:

of these lists should be kept (which I would disagree with), such a list

5294:

globally, and worry about the notability of the individual lists later.

3405:

notability, etc etc. Even if some new policy sprung up which says that

3199:

Actually, the result of the multiple article nomination was no-consensus

5739: 5135:" only included first-generation immigrants and their children; while " 4153:

want to delete wide swaths of WP for the fun of it. Again, please see

3894:, and then worry about the merits of individual lists, as suggested by 3499:

Knowledge (XXG):Deletion guidelines for administrators#Rough consensus

3386:

Without a unifying consensus on whether these lists are violations of

5738:

be considered to be in competition with each other. Rather, they are

5139:" might include any notable American with verifiable Hmong ancestry. 4920:

At the very least, lists should be allowed for all groups which are

4071:

created, ignoring other policies that may call for their deletion.

3599:

in the deletion fora. These breaches are so breaches are so common

5290:

We still have to decide whether these lists are all a violation of

4711:

was too insubstatial for a stand-alone list, it could be merged to

3249:

before withdrawal. I do not think this class action is justified.--

3201:- That would seem to contradict your earlier statement that there 5770:

the most widely held (and IMHO disruptive) misconceptions on WP.

5682:

Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/List of Hungarian Americans

5377:

Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/List of Norwegian Americans

4206:, although I haven't looked at many of these lists specifically. 5795: 5686:

Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/List of Bahamian Americans

3608:

Some of the participants in the deletion fora self-identify as '

3243:

Knowledge (XXG):Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Estonian_Americans

5382:

Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/List of Belgian Americans

5618:

as an alternative to Proposal 3, which will hopefully address

5437:

correctly, he wants the lists that are listed above to either

5372:

Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/List of German Americans

5119:. If these lists are kept this should be followed through on. 4621:

Keep all these articles and restore the ones that were deleted

4111: 3620:. Good luck however finding a manifestor for these movements. 3561:

Knowledge (XXG):Articles_for_deletion/List_of_German_Americans

3453:

Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/List of German Americans

3297:

Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/List of German Americans

3493:

Your second and third sentences are incorrect. Please review

5815:

List of African-American Officeholders During Reconstruction

5049:

as an alternative to Proposal 1, which hopefully addresses

4414:, then maybe we could hash out some preliminary criteria. 3853:

of these lists. That would mean that we'd have to allow

3816:

forbids these lists or not, and take appropriate action.

3793:

heritage) are appropriate for WP or whether they violate

4092:

Obviously, existing policy is not being applied evenly.

3295:, taking into consideration the deletion discussions at 3138: 3134: 3130: 3092: 3088: 3084: 3046: 3042: 3038: 3000: 2996: 2992: 2954: 2950: 2946: 2908: 2904: 2900: 2862: 2858: 2854: 2816: 2812: 2808: 2770: 2766: 2762: 2724: 2720: 2716: 2678: 2674: 2670: 2632: 2628: 2624: 2586: 2582: 2578: 2540: 2536: 2532: 2494: 2490: 2486: 2448: 2444: 2440: 2402: 2398: 2394: 2356: 2352: 2348: 2310: 2306: 2302: 2264: 2260: 2256: 2218: 2214: 2210: 2172: 2168: 2164: 2126: 2122: 2118: 2080: 2076: 2072: 2034: 2030: 2026: 1988: 1984: 1980: 1942: 1938: 1934: 1896: 1892: 1888: 1850: 1846: 1842: 1804: 1800: 1796: 1758: 1754: 1750: 1712: 1708: 1704: 1666: 1662: 1658: 1620: 1616: 1612: 1574: 1570: 1566: 1528: 1524: 1520: 1482: 1478: 1474: 1436: 1432: 1428: 1390: 1386: 1382: 1344: 1340: 1336: 1298: 1294: 1290: 1252: 1248: 1244: 1206: 1202: 1198: 1160: 1156: 1152: 1114: 1110: 1106: 1068: 1064: 1060: 1022: 1018: 1014: 976: 972: 968: 930: 926: 922: 884: 880: 876: 838: 834: 830: 792: 788: 784: 746: 742: 738: 700: 696: 692: 654: 650: 646: 608: 604: 600: 562: 558: 554: 516: 512: 508: 470: 466: 462: 424: 420: 416: 378: 374: 370: 332: 328: 324: 286: 282: 278: 240: 236: 232: 194: 190: 186: 148: 144: 140: 102: 98: 94: 5725:

Knowledge (XXG):Categories, lists, and series boxes

4307:Well, since only admins can interpret consensus at 5324:Actually it does, because if it is a violation of 3930:Wikidestroyer that needed immediate indef blocking 4358:explicitly notes that there's nothing wrong with 3663:-- Which of these things is not like the other? 3642:So, are we going to put our cards on the table? 3576:17:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC) ((wording changes 3542:serve a different purpose than categories. From 1541:List of notable Hispanics from the United States 3941:As long as we're not advocating a whole-sale 3928:I am glad you approve. I guess I am not the 3740:The emphasis is not on 'Asian' but 'American' 8: 5551:than a list of German or British Americans. 4241:The admin closing the previous AfD's cited 3746:Chinese Americans Bask in Olympic Spotlight 5478:seen the lists that were deleted (but not 3988:are somehow inferior to the other lists. 18:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Ethnic groups 5213:-American", "lists of this type violate 4940:, which says that articles are deleted " 4924:and where membership can be sourced to 4813:to be undeleted, then take it to DRV. 3752:Loyalty aside, who you gonna cheer for? 3501:. (I'll fix that red link in a second.) 5783:without explaining their reasoning. - 5744:See the navigation menu at the top of 3764:Where Are the Asian American Athletes? 3505:17:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC) FIXED. 32:Administrator-determined consensus at 5029:) people belonging to a notable (per 4763:To me, it's unattainable to say that 3758:A beautiful Kwan among ugly ducklings 3400:That's really no different from what 3245:At least showed a clear consensus of 7: 4525:, or parents, or Grandparents, etc. 3708:List of composers of African descent 44:and need to be deleted. Examples: 24: 4879:Lists of members of notable (per 4360:List of Jewish American musicians 4212:List of Native American musicians 3698:The "purpose of lists" header in 3627:has self-identified himself as a 3569:List of Jewish American musicians 3413:be nominated and a closing admin 4961:be examined on its own merits. 5081:Inclusion criteria (similar to 4216:List of Native American leaders 3686:, I do resent the implication. 5781:that's what categories are for 5775:11:22, 29 September 2007 (UTC) 5763:05:45, 29 September 2007 (UTC) 5719:04:09, 24 September 2007 (UTC) 5703:05:45, 29 September 2007 (UTC) 5693:19:48, 23 September 2007 (UTC) 5661:10:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC) 5644:00:19, 19 September 2007 (UTC) 5627:01:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 5556:02:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC) 5546:06:37, 23 September 2007 (UTC) 5516:04:49, 23 September 2007 (UTC) 5470:14:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC) 5429:11:00, 19 September 2007 (UTC) 5419:03:43, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 5398:00:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 5358:19:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC) 5333:19:02, 17 September 2007 (UTC) 5320:06:03, 17 September 2007 (UTC) 5299:01:29, 17 September 2007 (UTC) 5286:01:19, 17 September 2007 (UTC) 5262:01:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC) 5241:00:18, 20 September 2007 (UTC) 5229:00:15, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 5201:19:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC) 5188:00:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC) 5144:23:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC) 5124:22:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC) 5112:19:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC) 5100:23:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC) 5066:00:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC) 5058:01:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 5013:23:44, 17 September 2007 (UTC) 4999:22:51, 17 September 2007 (UTC) 4987:00:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC) 4977:00:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC) 4949:23:34, 17 September 2007 (UTC) 4942:if there is consensus to do so 4913:19:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC) 4900:23:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC) 4870:23:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC) 4839:01:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC) 4829:01:21, 17 September 2007 (UTC) 4808:23:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC) 4796:18:10, 15 September 2007 (UTC) 4759:17:24, 15 September 2007 (UTC) 4745:15:12, 15 September 2007 (UTC) 4720:12:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC) 4702:15:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4677:14:03, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4665:06:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4647:14:03, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4628:05:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4616:04:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4600:04:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4580:04:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4560:03:50, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4530:14:03, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4500:04:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4461:04:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4450:03:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4439:02:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4429:02:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4419:02:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4397:02:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4380:18:05, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 4333:02:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4320:00:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4299:19:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 4285:18:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 4268:18:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 4250:18:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 4237:17:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 4223:17:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 4210:is basically a super-list for 4189:00:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4176:00:20, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4162:00:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4148:00:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4132:13:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4119:04:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4097:13:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4087:04:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4054:04:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 4034:04:17, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 3993:00:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 3970:23:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3937:22:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3924:22:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3904:22:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3874:22:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3821:18:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3808:17:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3788:17:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3731:17:00, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3691:16:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3672:16:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3647:16:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3581:17:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3551:16:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3510:17:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3489:17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3464:17:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3447:17:16, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3433:17:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3396:17:16, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3382:16:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3372:16:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3342:16:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3313:15:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3285:15:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3264:16:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3254:15:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3226:16:27, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3194:15:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 3176:15:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 59:14:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC) 1: 4642:, are an affront to anybody. 4634:First of all, this is not an 2645:List of Scots-Irish Americans 483:List of Bangladeshi Americans 5803:02:08, 16 October 2007 (UTC) 5656:deleted should be restored. 5328:, then all these lists are. 4713:List of Melanesian Americans 4362:. A list structured the way 3677:people in country <y: --> 3013:List of Vietnamese Americans 2599:List of Salvadoran Americans 5790:14:07, 4 October 2007 (UTC) 5634:with the caveat that "This 5500:List of Norwegian Americans 3321:is not applicable here for 2967:List of Ukrainian Americans 2875:List of Taiwanese Americans 2369:List of Norwegian Americans 1633:List of Hungarian Americans 805:List of Caucasian Americans 759:List of Cambodian Americans 667:List of Bulgarian Americans 575:List of Brazilian Americans 253:List of Argentine Americans 5840: 4373:Lists of African Americans 3704:Lists of African Americans 3239:List of Estonian Americans 2737:List of Sicilian Americans 2691:List of Scottish Americans 2461:List of Romanian Americans 2323:List of Nigerian Americans 1955:List of Japanese Americans 1909:List of Jamaican Americans 1403:List of Georgian Americans 1265:List of Filipino Americans 1219:List of Estonian Americans 1173:List of Estonian Americans 989:List of Croatian Americans 437:List of Bahamian Americans 391:List of Austrian Americans 299:List of Armenian Americans 115:List of Albanian Americans 69:Lists of African Americans 5502:would violate policy but 4202:In general, I would vote 2921:List of Turkish-Americans 2783:List of Swedish Americans 2507:List of Russian Americans 2185:List of Mexican Americans 2139:List of Louisiana Creoles 2093:List of Laotian Americans 1863:List of Italian Americans 1817:List of Israeli Americans 1725:List of Iranian Americans 1311:List of Finnish Americans 1127:List of English Americans 943:List of Chinese Americans 897:List of Chinese Americans 529:List of Belgian Americans 5746:Knowledge (XXG):Contents 5393:than the kept articles. 5133:List of German Americans 4709:List of Fijian Americans 4369:Lists of Irish-Americans 4208:List of Native Americans 3997:The idea that we should 2415:List of Polish Americans 2277:List of Native Hawaiians 2231:List of Native Americans 2047:List of Korean Americans 2001:List of Jewish Americans 1771:Lists of Irish-Americans 1679:List of Indian Americans 1449:List of German Americans 1357:List of French Americans 5504:List of Dutch Americans 5137:List of Hmong Americans 4777:here in this discussion 4654:Comment and Strong Keep 4364:List of Dutch Americans 4229:List of Dutch Americans 3979:equally notable. Like 3105:List of White Americans 3059:List of Welsh Americans 2829:List of Swiss Americans 2553:List of Rusyn Americans 1587:List of Hmong Americans 1495:List of Greek-Americans 1081:List of Dutch Americans 1035:List of Cuban Americans 345:List of Asian Americans 5025:Lists of notable (per 3616:, and less commonly, 3291:Closing administrator 621:List of Brazilian Jews 207:List of Arab Americans 161:Lists of American Jews 5732:These methods should 3251:Alexia Death the Grey 3855:List of Fijian Serbs 3497:and, very important 3277:Reply to HongQiGong: 851:List of Chilean Jews 5523:could possibly mean 4553:WP:INSTRUCTIONCREEP 4232:would apply here. - 27:Lists of <x: --> 5712:Change to category 5498:valid reason that 5222:overcategorization 4930:Norwegian American 4749:I've helped write 5544: 5468: 5417: 5356: 5318: 5284: 5186: 4975: 4827: 4794: 4743: 4700: 4598: 4498: 4085: 4032: 3968: 3872: 3786: 3760:, The Yale Herald 3748:, Washington Post 3631:on his User page. 3487: 3431: 3370: 3340: 3317:All due respect, 3224: 3173: 5831: 5788: 5727:. Specifically: 5534: 5458: 5433:If I understand 5407: 5346: 5308: 5274: 5176: 4965: 4926:reliable sources 4817: 4784: 4773:WP:Verifiability 4733: 4690: 4588: 4488: 4356:WP:NOT#DIRECTORY 4075: 4022: 3958: 3862: 3834:Israeli American 3776: 3653: 3652: 3477: 3421: 3360: 3330: 3319:WP:NOT#DIRECTORY 3306:WP:NOT#DIRECTORY 3301:WP:NOT#DIRECTORY 3299:has interpreted 3214: 3175:_Americans": --> 3163: 3146: 3128: 3100: 3082: 3054: 3036: 3008: 2990: 2962: 2944: 2916: 2898: 2870: 2852: 2824: 2806: 2778: 2760: 2732: 2714: 2686: 2668: 2640: 2622: 2594: 2576: 2548: 2530: 2502: 2484: 2456: 2438: 2410: 2392: 2364: 2346: 2318: 2300: 2272: 2254: 2226: 2208: 2180: 2162: 2134: 2116: 2088: 2070: 2042: 2024: 1996: 1978: 1950: 1932: 1904: 1886: 1858: 1840: 1812: 1794: 1766: 1748: 1720: 1702: 1674: 1656: 1628: 1610: 1582: 1564: 1536: 1518: 1490: 1472: 1444: 1426: 1398: 1380: 1352: 1334: 1306: 1288: 1260: 1242: 1214: 1196: 1168: 1150: 1122: 1104: 1076: 1058: 1030: 1012: 984: 966: 938: 920: 892: 874: 846: 828: 800: 782: 754: 736: 708: 690: 662: 644: 616: 598: 570: 552: 524: 506: 478: 460: 432: 414: 386: 368: 340: 322: 294: 276: 248: 230: 202: 184: 156: 138: 110: 92: 58:_Americans": --> 5839: 5838: 5834: 5833: 5832: 5830: 5829: 5828: 5817: 5784: 5676: 5671: 5612: 5588: 5249: 5170: 5157: 5152: 5093: 5079: 5074: 5043: 5023: 4957: 4938:deletion policy 4893: 4877: 4863: 4521:-American in a 4199: 3766:, AsianWeek.com 3618:"inclusionists" 3563:discussion. 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2617: 2612: 2608: 2604: 2600: 2596: 2592: 2588: 2584: 2580: 2575: 2571: 2566: 2562: 2558: 2554: 2550: 2546: 2542: 2538: 2534: 2529: 2525: 2520: 2516: 2512: 2508: 2504: 2500: 2496: 2492: 2488: 2483: 2479: 2474: 2470: 2466: 2462: 2458: 2454: 2450: 2446: 2442: 2437: 2433: 2428: 2424: 2420: 2416: 2412: 2408: 2404: 2400: 2396: 2391: 2387: 2382: 2378: 2374: 2370: 2366: 2362: 2358: 2354: 2350: 2345: 2341: 2336: 2332: 2328: 2324: 2320: 2316: 2312: 2308: 2304: 2299: 2295: 2290: 2286: 2282: 2278: 2274: 2270: 2266: 2262: 2258: 2253: 2249: 2244: 2240: 2236: 2232: 2228: 2224: 2220: 2216: 2212: 2207: 2203: 2198: 2194: 2190: 2186: 2182: 2178: 2174: 2170: 2166: 2161: 2157: 2152: 2148: 2144: 2140: 2136: 2132: 2128: 2124: 2120: 2115: 2111: 2106: 2102: 2098: 2094: 2090: 2086: 2082: 2078: 2074: 2069: 2065: 2060: 2056: 2052: 2048: 2044: 2040: 2036: 2032: 2028: 2023: 2019: 2014: 2010: 2006: 2002: 1998: 1994: 1990: 1986: 1982: 1977: 1973: 1968: 1964: 1960: 1956: 1952: 1948: 1944: 1940: 1936: 1931: 1927: 1922: 1918: 1914: 1910: 1906: 1902: 1898: 1894: 1890: 1885: 1881: 1876: 1872: 1868: 1864: 1860: 1856: 1852: 1848: 1844: 1839: 1835: 1830: 1826: 1822: 1818: 1814: 1810: 1806: 1802: 1798: 1793: 1789: 1784: 1780: 1776: 1772: 1768: 1764: 1760: 1756: 1752: 1747: 1743: 1738: 1734: 1730: 1726: 1722: 1718: 1714: 1710: 1706: 1701: 1697: 1692: 1688: 1684: 1680: 1676: 1672: 1668: 1664: 1660: 1655: 1651: 1646: 1642: 1638: 1634: 1630: 1626: 1622: 1618: 1614: 1609: 1605: 1600: 1596: 1592: 1588: 1584: 1580: 1576: 1572: 1568: 1563: 1559: 1554: 1550: 1546: 1542: 1538: 1534: 1530: 1526: 1522: 1517: 1513: 1508: 1504: 1500: 1496: 1492: 1488: 1484: 1480: 1476: 1471: 1467: 1462: 1458: 1454: 1450: 1446: 1442: 1438: 1434: 1430: 1425: 1421: 1416: 1412: 1408: 1404: 1400: 1396: 1392: 1388: 1384: 1379: 1375: 1370: 1366: 1362: 1358: 1354: 1350: 1346: 1342: 1338: 1333: 1329: 1324: 1320: 1316: 1312: 1308: 1304: 1300: 1296: 1292: 1287: 1283: 1278: 1274: 1270: 1266: 1262: 1258: 1254: 1250: 1246: 1241: 1237: 1232: 1228: 1224: 1220: 1216: 1212: 1208: 1204: 1200: 1195: 1191: 1186: 1182: 1178: 1174: 1170: 1166: 1162: 1158: 1154: 1149: 1145: 1140: 1136: 1132: 1128: 1124: 1120: 1116: 1112: 1108: 1103: 1099: 1094: 1090: 1086: 1082: 1078: 1074: 1070: 1066: 1062: 1057: 1053: 1048: 1044: 1040: 1036: 1032: 1028: 1024: 1020: 1016: 1011: 1007: 1002: 998: 994: 990: 986: 982: 978: 974: 970: 965: 961: 956: 952: 948: 944: 940: 936: 932: 928: 924: 919: 915: 910: 906: 902: 898: 894: 890: 886: 882: 878: 873: 869: 864: 860: 856: 852: 848: 844: 840: 836: 832: 827: 823: 818: 814: 810: 806: 802: 798: 794: 790: 786: 781: 777: 772: 768: 764: 760: 756: 752: 748: 744: 740: 735: 731: 726: 722: 718: 714: 710: 706: 702: 698: 694: 689: 685: 680: 676: 672: 668: 664: 660: 656: 652: 648: 643: 639: 634: 630: 626: 622: 618: 614: 610: 606: 602: 597: 593: 588: 584: 580: 576: 572: 568: 564: 560: 556: 551: 547: 542: 538: 534: 530: 526: 522: 518: 514: 510: 505: 501: 496: 492: 488: 484: 480: 476: 472: 468: 464: 459: 455: 450: 446: 442: 438: 434: 430: 426: 422: 418: 413: 409: 404: 400: 396: 392: 388: 384: 380: 376: 372: 367: 363: 358: 354: 350: 346: 342: 338: 334: 330: 326: 321: 317: 312: 308: 304: 300: 296: 292: 288: 284: 280: 275: 271: 266: 262: 258: 254: 250: 246: 242: 238: 234: 229: 225: 220: 216: 212: 208: 204: 200: 196: 192: 188: 183: 179: 174: 170: 166: 162: 158: 154: 150: 146: 142: 137: 133: 128: 124: 120: 116: 112: 108: 104: 100: 96: 91: 87: 82: 78: 74: 70: 66: 65: 64: 61: 60: 56: 52: 49: 46: 43: 39: 35: 26: 19: 5819: 5818: 5780: 5749: 5737: 5734: 5731: 5716:72.158.38.41 5711: 5653: 5649: 5635: 5631: 5615: 5600: 5599: 5591: 5589: 5532:Hong Qi Gong 5526: 5522: 5507: 5495: 5491: 5487: 5483: 5479: 5475: 5456:Hong Qi Gong 5450: 5446: 5442: 5438: 5405:Hong Qi Gong 5389: 5344:Hong Qi Gong 5339: 5306:Hong Qi Gong 5272:Hong Qi Gong 5233: 5220:", "this is 5219:% <X: --> 5205: 5192: 5174:Hong Qi Gong 5160: 5158: 5128: 5116: 5104: 5087:-Americans. 5080: 5051:Hong Qi Gong 5046: 5024: 4963:Hong Qi Gong 4941: 4933: 4917: 4904: 4878: 4864: 4815:Hong Qi Gong 4782:Hong Qi Gong 4776: 4764: 4731:Hong Qi Gong 4688:Hong Qi Gong 4683: 4653: 4620: 4608: 4586:Hong Qi Gong 4548: 4486:Hong Qi Gong 4481: 4390: 4203: 4168: 4140: 4103: 4073:Hong Qi Gong 4068: 4064: 4060: 4046: 4020:Hong Qi Gong 4014: 4010: 4006: 4002: 3998: 3981:User:Noroton 3956:Hong Qi Gong 3946: 3942: 3916: 3860:Hong Qi Gong 3850: 3845: 3828: 3774:Hong Qi Gong 3716: 3697: 3664: 3660: 3628: 3617: 3613: 3609: 3588: 3565:WP:DIRECTORY 3495:WP:CONSENSUS 3475:Hong Qi Gong 3473:correctly. 3469: 3419:Hong Qi Gong 3414: 3410: 3406: 3401: 3358:Hong Qi Gong 3353: 3328:Hong Qi Gong 3322: 3276: 3246: 3212:Hong Qi Gong 3207:no consensus 3206: 3202: 3198: 3161:Hong Qi Gong 3155: 3151: 62: 31: 5740:synergistic 5723:Please see 5688:for ideas. 5586:Proposal 3a 5198:Chunky Rice 5109:Chunky Rice 5021:Proposal 1a 4910:Chunky Rice 4330:Chunky Rice 4296:Chunky Rice 4265:Chunky Rice 4234:Chunky Rice 3838:Chilean Jew 3805:Chunky Rice 5786:Mtmelendez 5592:in general 5435:User:Leuko 5238:Alabamaboy 5215:WP:NOT#DIR 5164:sections. 5155:Proposal 3 5086:<x: --> 5077:Proposal 2 5035:WP:NOT#DIR 4875:Proposal 1 4573:WP:NOT#DIR 4434:American. 4243:WP:NOT#DIR 4065:delete all 3954:notable. 3880:WP:NOT#DIR 3795:WP:NOT#DIR 3754:SFGate.com 3742:, ESPN.com 3539:WP:NOT#DIR 3457:WP:NOT:DIR 42:WP:NOT#DIR 5654:have been 5340:have been 4861:Proposals 4613:Badagnani 4557:Badagnani 4480:person's 4173:Badagnani 4145:Badagnani 4116:Badagnani 4051:Badagnani 3921:Badagnani 3706:includes 3661:Question? 3635:possible? 3610:Mergists" 3415:can still 3411:can still 3293:User:Neil 28:Americans 5825:Ladb2000 5594:violate 5541:Contribs 5465:Contribs 5414:Contribs 5353:Contribs 5315:Contribs 5281:Contribs 5224:", etc. 5183:Contribs 5121:Mad Jack 4996:Mad Jack 4972:Contribs 4824:Contribs 4791:Contribs 4740:Contribs 4697:Contribs 4684:Keep all 4658:WP:POINT 4595:Contribs 4495:Contribs 4220:Smmurphy 4082:Contribs 4061:keep all 4029:Contribs 4015:override 4011:ignoring 3965:Contribs 3869:Contribs 3783:Contribs 3669:Geo Swan 3644:Geo Swan 3557:WP:LISTS 3544:WP:LISTS 3484:Contribs 3428:Contribs 3367:Contribs 3337:Contribs 3221:Contribs 3170:Contribs 5800:DHowell 5772:Dhaluza 5760:DHowell 5700:DHowell 5674:Break 3 5658:DHowell 5632:Endorse 5624:DHowell 5616:Endorse 5610:Endorse 5513:DHowell 5426:DHowell 5395:DHowell 5234:Endorse 5226:DHowell 5206:Endorse 5193:Endorse 5168:Endorse 5141:DHowell 5129:Endorse 5117:Endorse 5105:Endorse 5091:Endorse 5055:DHowell 5047:Endorse 5041:Endorse 5010:DHowell 4946:DHowell 4922:notable 4918:Endorse 4905:Endorse 4891:Endorse 4756:Dhaluza 4717:Dhaluza 4715:, etc. 4549:Comment 4482:parents 4394:MarkBul 4377:Noroton 4197:Break 2 4169:Comment 4141:Comment 4104:Comment 4047:Comment 3917:Comment 3896:Noroton 3725:Scouter 3700:WP:LIST 3589:Comment 3578:Noroton 3574:Noroton 3532:Break 1 3507:Noroton 3503:Noroton 3461:Noroton 3379:Noroton 3310:Noroton 3282:Noroton 3241:AFD at 3152:Comment 3122:protect 3117:history 3076:protect 3071:history 3030:protect 3025:history 2984:protect 2979:history 2938:protect 2933:history 2892:protect 2887:history 2846:protect 2841:history 2800:protect 2795:history 2754:protect 2749:history 2708:protect 2703:history 2662:protect 2657:history 2616:protect 2611:history 2570:protect 2565:history 2524:protect 2519:history 2478:protect 2473:history 2432:protect 2427:history 2386:protect 2381:history 2340:protect 2335:history 2294:protect 2289:history 2248:protect 2243:history 2202:protect 2197:history 2156:protect 2151:history 2110:protect 2105:history 2064:protect 2059:history 2018:protect 2013:history 1972:protect 1967:history 1926:protect 1921:history 1880:protect 1875:history 1834:protect 1829:history 1788:protect 1783:history 1742:protect 1737:history 1696:protect 1691:history 1650:protect 1645:history 1604:protect 1599:history 1558:protect 1553:history 1512:protect 1507:history 1466:protect 1461:history 1420:protect 1415:history 1374:protect 1369:history 1328:protect 1323:history 1282:protect 1277:history 1236:protect 1231:history 1190:protect 1185:history 1144:protect 1139:history 1098:protect 1093:history 1052:protect 1047:history 1006:protect 1001:history 960:protect 955:history 914:protect 909:history 868:protect 863:history 822:protect 817:history 776:protect 771:history 730:protect 725:history 684:protect 679:history 638:protect 633:history 592:protect 587:history 546:protect 541:history 500:protect 495:history 454:protect 449:history 408:protect 403:history 362:protect 357:history 316:protect 311:history 270:protect 265:history 224:protect 219:history 178:protect 173:history 132:protect 127:history 86:protect 81:history 5690:Hmains 5669:Oppose 5596:WP:NOT 5326:WP:NOT 5292:WP:NOT 5247:Oppose 5210:WP:ATA 5150:Oppose 5072:Oppose 4955:Oppose 4885:WP:NOT 4636:WP:AFD 4625:Hmains 4412:WP:NOT 4404:WP:RSs 4313:WP:DRV 4309:WP:AFD 4278:WP:DRV 4182:WP:ABF 4155:WP:AGF 4069:can be 3986:WP:NOT 3976:WP:NOT 3951:WP:NOT 3947:delete 3892:WP:NOT 3888:WP:NOT 3884:WP:NOT 3842:WP:NOT 3814:WP:NOT 3713:WP:SAL 3684:WP:CIV 3680:WP:NPA 3597:WP:NPA 3593:WP:CIV 3440:WP:NOT 3388:WP:NOT 3187:WP:NOT 3183:WP:NOT 3126:delete 3080:delete 3034:delete 2988:delete 2942:delete 2896:delete 2850:delete 2804:delete 2758:delete 2712:delete 2666:delete 2620:delete 2574:delete 2528:delete 2482:delete 2436:delete 2390:delete 2344:delete 2298:delete 2252:delete 2206:delete 2160:delete 2114:delete 2068:delete 2022:delete 1976:delete 1930:delete 1884:delete 1838:delete 1792:delete 1746:delete 1700:delete 1654:delete 1608:delete 1562:delete 1516:delete 1470:delete 1424:delete 1378:delete 1332:delete 1286:delete 1240:delete 1194:delete 1148:delete 1102:delete 1056:delete 1010:delete 964:delete 918:delete 872:delete 826:delete 780:delete 734:delete 688:delete 642:delete 596:delete 550:delete 504:delete 458:delete 412:delete 366:delete 320:delete 274:delete 228:delete 182:delete 136:delete 90:delete 38:WP:DRV 34:WP:AFD 5641:Leuko 5620:Leuko 5553:Leuko 5508:other 5330:Leuko 5296:Leuko 5259:Leuko 5097:Leuko 5063:Leuko 4984:Leuko 4897:Leuko 4867:Leuko 4836:Leuko 4805:Leuko 4674:Leuko 4662:ExRat 4644:Leuko 4577:Leuko 4527:Leuko 4523:WP:RS 4458:Leuko 4447:Nposs 4436:Leuko 4426:Nposs 4416:Leuko 4317:Leuko 4282:Leuko 4247:Leuko 4186:Leuko 4159:Leuko 4129:Leuko 4094:Leuko 3990:Leuko 3934:Leuko 3901:Leuko 3818:Leuko 3799:Leuko 3688:Leuko 3625:Leuko 3548:Nposs 3444:Leuko 3393:Leuko 3348:Leuko 3261:Leuko 3191:Leuko 3143:views 3135:watch 3131:links 3097:views 3089:watch 3085:links 3051:views 3043:watch 3039:links 3005:views 2997:watch 2993:links 2959:views 2951:watch 2947:links 2913:views 2905:watch 2901:links 2867:views 2859:watch 2855:links 2821:views 2813:watch 2809:links 2775:views 2767:watch 2763:links 2729:views 2721:watch 2717:links 2683:views 2675:watch 2671:links 2637:views 2629:watch 2625:links 2591:views 2583:watch 2579:links 2545:views 2537:watch 2533:links 2499:views 2491:watch 2487:links 2453:views 2445:watch 2441:links 2407:views 2399:watch 2395:links 2361:views 2353:watch 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