Knowledge (XXG) talk:Manual of Style/Icons/Archive 17

2657:, Not many reader would click on link just to understand the details of the colour boxes and every combat sport has its own colour codes for belt and if you look at Karate it is very confusing with so many different colour and their combinations. Even for combat sport fans, especially the mma readers who are a little bit more knowldege then other reader who only like certain sport would not know all the color belt for different sport and that not to mention for general reader. However, every reader would understand if a number stated and colour code in text in for the belt and not many bjj practitioners have 7th black belt with read coral belt as almost 99 percents of them are white to black belt. Keep it simple for the general readers. 2912:

colours. It would also mean having to add colour boxes to to thousands of articles and add no information that isn't there already. In those instances where the BJJ practitioner is notable for their BJJ, like Gordon Ryan or someone, then that's OK, but in the case of someone like Royce Gracie, who is the original 'Ultimate Fighter', then his article should be like all the other MMA fighter infoboxes. We also have the 'style' parameter that we use to show fighters who have competed p[rofessionally or internationally in other disciplines. IN the case of Royce, he has no notable BJJ achievements and no pro fights listed. His notability is based on his MMA career. He is a BJJ-based MMA fighter, so his style parameter says GJJ.

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disciplines. You're talking about adding a BJJ colour box to MMA fighters who have achieved notability in BJJ. We're saying that would create a lot of clutter as regards MMA infoboxes. Assuming the fighter in question is a BJJ pro and known very much on account of that, go ahead. That's already the case. Royce is a good example. You have to add 'legends of the sport' above as you've figured out that Royce's notability is obviously not on account of his BJJ. It's due to his having won three of the first four major MMA tournaments. A BJJ fighter becoming an MMA legend doesn't make that fighter a BJJ only article. As you know, Royce does not have international or professional BJJ competition record on his profile.

3886: 108:) and noticed that they used flagicons in a country of origin column in a table and also in a section farther down the articles in sections titled "Country represented." There are 36 of these lists and over the past two months I was removing them about one a day, partly because it was a bit of work and also if there were any objections, they could be dealt with earlier rather than later. Even though these lists are a mixture of singers and bands, I used the edit summary, "Removed flagicons per 869:, etc.) and this use doesn't fall into any of the "Inappropriate use" listed ("Do not emphasize nationality without good reason", "Do not use a flag when a picture of the subject is not available", "Do not use subnational flags without direct relevance", "Do not use supranational flags without direct relevance", "Do not rewrite history", "Do not use flags in genocide-related lists and articles", "Do not use flags on disambiguation pages") so it seems okay to me. 35: 2334:. Although the raw !vote counts are essentially the same, the strength of the arguments clearly lies with the opposition. As was repeated in some fashion in almost every oppose, we are writing for a general audience for which the small colored icon will not communicate any context or meaning. This was also mentioned in the comment by Imede. This provides strength to the argument that the icons would essentially be 181:

and displeasing viewing experience - the pages were easier to view as a whole due to the coloured background for Australian artists. Triple J are very proud to honour the endeavours and overall popularity of home-grown Australian talent on their lists, and users who view their lists on wikipedia for ease-of-access if nothing else, use the coloured background like a proverbial pie-chart for the table as a whole.

3961: 3915: 2727:. Both don't even link to the relevant article about the ranks of the specific martial art. This could be easily solved by amending the ranks templates and infobox template to provide clearer information, including numerical, and targeted links to relevant information. Done right, it will even make editing easier and provide a more consistent, informative look to all relevant articles. 2776:: “sports figures are likely to meet Knowledge (XXG)'s basic standards of inclusion if they have achieved success in a major international competition at the highest level.” Despite Nedochan’s bizarre statement that would include (in addition to the legend of the sport, pioneers, famous coaches..etc) people who have medalled at black level at major BJJ championships such as: IBJJF 771:, where in the later article it is clearly written: "While comparing with other articles is not, in general, a convincing argument, comparing with articles that have been through some kind of quality review such as Featured article, Good article, or have achieved a WikiProject A class rating, make a much more credible case." What are your views in this case? 4047: 3707: 3656: 3480:: I'm really on the fence of this one. But I will say this. The majority of people who read these articles on BJJ/MMA practitioners are casuals. They pretty much know almost nothing about the sport of BJJ. They could be even practicing the sport themselves yet ignorant of the true importance of stuff like 3528:

which are meaningless, even confusing, to many readers. In text form, it is salient information for the infobox. "Having the Rank icon allows notable BJJ athletes who have transitioned to be immediately identified." No, only to people in a particular wikiproject and a tiny subset of MA fans who have

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As I have explained before this is about “individuals who have achieved notability in Brazilian jiu-jitsu” but you seem to be ignoring this fact even though it’s in the title of this RfC and I have posted a list of championships previously. Only 33 MMA fighters have been found to have transitioned to

2959:

This is a failing of the notability *criteria* though, not a lack of notability in BJJ. The criteria disregard the origins of BJJ in the old Vale Tudo matches, where BJJ fighters would take on other schools such as boxers, karateka, judoka, etc. Does it make sense to not have "notable" fights prior

2930:

I think it's incoherent to consider Royce Gracie to not be a notable BJJ practitioner for not having any notable BJJ achievements, when his first fight in the UFC in 1993 predated the very existence of the IBJJF in 2002 and ADCC in 1998. He is a literal pioneer of BJJ -- one of the main reasons that

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fighters who have become notable for MMA, so having a colour box for BJJ but not for karate, for instance, wouldn't work. So then you'd need a colour box for every belt that they had, which would result in a massive amount of work and the only thing we'd have to show for it would be a load of clutter.

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Now, I realise that the table is sortable, but it still isn't as pleasing to the eye as it was before the flagicons/backgrounds were removed. As far as the argument goes that no other EOY song polls use flagicons in their articles, refer to the outside link which is a database of all the H100 polls,

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states that flagicons three different times "Do not add a flag icon.", so if flagicons cannot be used in biographical articles about singers/bands, then why would there use be acceptable in a list of singers/bands? I could find no other examples of music lists using flagicons in their articles, which

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that have since been deprecated and so they no longer show up when following the link: the only remaining icon is the Spanish flag on the "current team". The page doesn't seem to have been archived at Wayback Machine at the period that there were too many icons. Perhaps the example can be changed to

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not "bjj practitioner who do bjj" but “Individuals who have achieved notability in Brazilian jiu-jitsu”! Only 33 fighters have been identified so far as being notable BJJ athletes who have transitioned to MMA, all these articles have already been updated so basically this changes nothing for you and

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The flag icons are clearly being used to show that they are representing their countries due to the "Country represented" sections. But this is not a singing competition where singers/bands are officially representing their countries, these are annual user polls of what they think are the best songs

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Precisely. The info is already there, as are the colour boxes in notable single discipline martial arts pages. My own objection centres on MMA fighters and their propensity to have several belts. Also, this proposal doesn't consider the fact that there is already a way we show MMA fighters who have

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I'm not sure what you mean by that, but pageant contestants are selected through state pageants as official representatives of their states/regions/etc. Yeah, they aren't appointed by their governments, but it is far more than "they simply come from those states or countries," there is a hierarchal

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A condition of flag use is not sport; but sport usage sometimes provides for relaxed usage rules due to the frequency with which broadcast usage will reduce countries to just flags with three-letterisms, providing something of a recognizability/navigation justification to using them in sport tables

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we should stick to this one. It's just a copyedit that addresses the first part of my proposal: to eliminate the repetition marked with bright yellow above. With my present approval, it does seem to have a consensus. (Another question is whether we'll move any further from there, but let's fix this

3306:

That's not exactly true. We shouldn't link icons as a primary usage on how to explain what they are. "black and red coral belt in jiu-jitsu" does make more sense than an icon to someone unfamiliar with the subject. I'm suggesting that it shouldn't be used like this at all, similar to how we try to

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The fact remain, 95% or more fighters have belt from white to black and no significant even you have stripes especially for elite fighters who merit a page in Knowledge (XXG). Word is better than icon as hardly anyone know the colour code (I am a bjj practitioner myslef and know most ppl dont know

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It seems you're missing the point a bit. Why should BJJ notability and belts be the only ones for MMA fighters to show with colour boxes? Lots of MMA fighters have been notable in other sports, hence the way we use the style parameter, which indicates an MMA fighter who's competed notably in other

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I'm sorry, but your point just isn't valid, for more than one reason. First, this RfC is not about MMA fighters specifically but about bjj practitioners in general. You can't judge the whole group by the subset. Second, even for MMA fighters, the cyrrent state isn't as you've claimed. For example,

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None of these apply here. Flagcruft talks about nationalities, which this discussion does not. And even if it id, there IS good reason here. These people directly represent these states. And FLAGRELEVANCE telling not to use them, doesn’t apply here either, because there quite patently IS relevance

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This is a controversial change to you, not to the several protected template editors I've made requests to, not to the editors who've said nothing as I removed flags, not to the editors who've agreed with me in discussions like this one, and not to the editors who developed the icon consensuses on

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It seems to me that having the flag in the template/infobox of a single state/region/entity is totally different from including them in a table listing all the states/regions/entities and that you have unilaterally extended things beyond what the MOS discussion dealt with. Having had it flagged to

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What's that, anyway: "competitions where national flags are commonly used as representations of sporting nationality in a given sport"? Used where and by whom? Certainly, every flag is used by someone somewhere, but what does it have to do with English Knowledge (XXG)? I'd perhaps suggest removing

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The wording of these MOSs would have to be tweaked for the case of some countries which are not themselves sovereign but, e.g., have their own teams in international sport events or their own representations in international organisations. This has long been the practice across Knowledge (XXG) but

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I was perplexed when I visited one of the Triple J H100 pages recently (which I do often because there is regular vandalism at play), only to find that not only were the flagicons were removed, but also the green background denoting Australian artists was removed also. This made for a very sterile

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I fully agree that the most important people to consider are the casual readers; that’s why the rank icon is so convenient: they learn a key fact at a glance without having to search and read through the infobox (whose font is already smaller than the actual article and often already crammed with

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People are likely to be notable if "the person has a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in a specific field”, which as you say "no one could refute". At the end of the day he’s a legend of both MMA and BJJ. Without him both would be completely different,

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it is better with words instead or colour box as it is easy for non-bjj readers to understand the rankings systems which would be confusion as other combat sport have different colors rankings systems especiall the it belt ranking have 2 combinations colour plus the strips. Keep it simply for all

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The entire reason this guideline exists and is so against willy-nilly use of flags and other icons is because someone always "believe the way would look better". If no one did, there would never have arisen a need to address icon abuse in a guideline, since there would be no icon abuse. The fact

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Agree with Thrakkx. Adding flags to those tables is not providing encyclopedic information in the table's context, it's just decorating them. Nor is it an aid to navigation, since these places are not commonly represented by just flags and abbreviations in the news, etc. (Contrast this with the

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I would say that the flags displayed in those two articles are purely decorative, as it is made very clear at the top of the articles what countries those leagues are in. One or two examples may "prove" the rule (in the original sense of "test" the rule), but I think it will take a lot more than

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does need to descend into bureaucratical warfare over whether flagicons are appropriate or not, then you've kind of missed the whole point of why the articles exist in the first place. I implore you to leave the lists as they are, as they have been for over 12 years now. If it absolutely MUST be

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I wasn't talking about linking the icons but the text, what’s "coral belt" if not jargon?. I don't think we can generalise and assume that someone unfamiliar with the subject would prefer text, I actually think that an icon is far more effective because the average person responds far better to

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Also worth noting that the colour boxes don't actually add any info, so the whole thing seems pointless to me. There really aren't that many grapplers who have achieved notability purely on account of their grappling, so I don't object to those having a colour box, but there are hundreds of BJJ

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Those achievements are in the achievements section in the body text supported by source. We are talking about icon colours for belts and do remember, not only the bjj practitioner do bjj these days, MMA fighters do many different disciplines which the minimum requirements for elite fighter are

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There are relatively few BJJ practitioners who have the notability required to have an article about them. Most BJJ stylists achieve notability on account of MMA. In MMA infoboxes, we don't use colour boxes, as fighters with multiple belts would end up having infoboxes cluttered with a load of

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However, it does not limit to bjj practitioners but any martial artist who practice bjj which including MMA fighters and all their ranks in any martial arts discipline they practice, and any editor will use it as they want if the RFC gone ahead and we have a lot of pages and edits to due with

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Very few readers will be familiar with the ranking systems of variuous martial arts, and placing the icons in articles about practioners of MA is merely decorative, and provides no useful service to the reader. It is established that we do not use such icons in Knowledge (XXG) for decorative

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statistics). By adding consistency to BJJ articles it also adds a quick and easy way to compare practitioners across different pages, something you probably end up doing when you know nothing about a sport. That's probably why it has worked well for Judo over the years without any complains.

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Looks like this was brought up last spring by Randi, and one idea in that discussion was to make it a screenshot of an article representative of "too many icons". Is there one that springs to mind that I can go forward with making an example of for posterity? Or one we can archive through

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Levantine Arabic is definitely not an official language here in Germany. And to that other point: Why does the launch in a country not have national ties? It's just like with languages spoken in a country. The service has become accessible there now, just like a language is spoken there.

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The purpose of an infobox is to summarise key facts that appear in the article not to provide an explanation, the less information it contains, the more effective. If a reader needs to understand a particular belt, they can follow a link from the body text such as: "Royce Gracie is a

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The question itself is a bit disingenuous imo. What's really being proposed is a BJJ exclusive addition to martial arts infoboxes. I can say with certainty that that would be a massive amount of effort to carry out for absolutely no discernible benefit other than compromising NPOV.

2500:, it brings consistency between related infoboxes and by presenting information in shorter form helps not to clutter infoboxes (for example removing the need to describe coral belts as red-and-black or red-and-white). Judo and BJJ share the same origin and use a similar rank system. 256:

I would agree at first blush, the secondary indicator for Aus. isn't really needed, but I think it is fair that a proper green (per those given in MOS:COLOR) is useful to quickly tell approximately how many of the songs are from Aus. or not. There's no harm in that second indictor

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Olympics and FIFA, where flags alone or flags and abbreviations are very commonly used to identify national competitors, making their use in sports-related tables more directly relevant.) The place to find out what the flag of the Chuvash Republic looks like is in the article

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If this proposal were supported, it'd mean that BJJ based MMA fighters had a single colour box reflecting BJJ only, which would be inconsistent, or colour boxes for every difference, which would be a chaotic and laborious way of duplicating the words and the style parameter.

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Yeah, no one reading a list of pageant contestants is visually searching by flag, because they were not subjected to a flag-only or flag-plus-abbreviation listing on their TV screen. And no one can reasonably be asking "What is the flag of ?" when reading such a list.

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Since this was escalated. How are we going to move forward? I support removing the repetive part that was directly quoted and highlighted here, but not the part the unique part dealing with flags in the infoboxes of sportspeople taking part in major international

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does not make sense AT ALL. Most editors would agree, that even for a very long time, even the veteran ones, that subflags in beauty pageant articles are RELEVANT, and should not be removed. Beyond that, there shouldn't be any discussion or consensus about it.

3124:: Can someone explain the relevance of the icon? I get that in martial arts the skill/level is denoted by a colour of a belt, but is it specifically important that we show this? Does a black rectangle really bring out more information than the word black? 131:(this one only had flagicons in the infobox), with edit summaries of " there is nothing in WP:FLAGBIO that is relevant to this article". Since this concerns 36 different articles, I thought a discussion here would get more input then anywhere else. 1541:

Not a relevant use of flags. Pageants are not sports, and subnational divisions in pageant coverage are not routinely in the media reduced to flags and abbreviations, so these icons are not serving a navigational purpose, they're just decoration.

3292:. The icon adds a quicker way to describe the belt level and colour, bring consistency between articles, without taking space in the infobox, just like it's done for judo a closely associated martial art to BJJ with a similar ranking system. 3816:

I do question whether all of those flags are necessary. I am not sure why the same Spanish flag needs to be shown 8 times, or the same French flag 9 times. I suppose, though, that I need to raise that question on the article's talk page.

2338:. The argument that many BJJ practitioners are MMA fighters with ranks in multiple systems/styles and the icons would lead to significant clutter is also persuasive, and undercuts the support argument that Judo has such colored icons. 2960:

to this arbitrary set of tournaments in a style that has existed for around a hundred years? Also, Royce is a 7th degree coral belt which IMO is in itself a notable BJJ-specific achievement (although maybe not by Wiki standards?).

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on a related topic (flags in navboxes) came to the conclusion that the flags were purely decorative. I don't see how the flags listed in navboxes is any different than listing the flags in every single possible table and

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BJJRank icons are inserted here because they convey information in addition to the text, they serve as visual cues that help the reader's comprehension and helps present information in shorter form which is in line with

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This here. Compared to, say, auto racing, marathon runners. And tennis, where flags are nearly constantly used with competitors implying they are representing their country, beauty parents do not use that approach.

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I don't watch many beauty pageants... do they always show the contestant's flag now? When I watched in my youth I don't recall "Miss Mississippi" coming out and the tv showing the flag. When I look at websites like

1574:) - which the pageant appears to have (one person per state). (This doesn't mean I agree with the use of flags here, I just think that part of your arguement is flawed.) The biggest issue I have with the flags in 3189: 2809: 1578:

is that they are completely redundent, they don't provide any additional relevant information as each flag is accompanied by the state's name. If you've got the state name already, the flag is just decoration.

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I'm not sure what the "great wrong" would be - in this case it could be us using flags when sources don't, could be us trying to "fix" something. We should be trying to limit our flag usage, not increasing it

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Would still be inappropriate. Nothing about the launches have strong national ties that would necessitate flag icons, since the concern is that when used, they are suggestion a endorsed govt relationship.

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on WP. That doesn't apply to pageants; it's an unavailable excuse to pepper articles with flag decoration (but sport articles' usage was clearly the inspiration for doing this to pageant articles).

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I did remove the flags/coats of arms from all of the above examples not to undermine Furius, but because the MOS and its many interpretations are clear: they do not belong on those pages, either.

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has removed the flags, citing this policy, but I'm not clear why it should apply here, since it seems very normal for wiki to include the flags of national/sub-national entities in lists of them

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And just how is this purely decorative?? That's nothing but your personal opinion. These honours directly represent the sovereign states that award them. There is more than enough relevance here.

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are present, of which the Premier League is even a featured article! When I (and other editors) try to include infoboxflags in other association football leagues, some users are stating about

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Given that the list is based on an Australian entity, it is fine to include the green background to highlight Australia's entries, but the flag use is completely out of line with MOSFLAG. --

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I advocate use of flags (national flags) in certain sports articles, but this is a bridge too far. Flags in the case of beauty pageants, particularly sub-national flags, is just bunting.

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I'd support removeing this paragrapgh. It is competely redundent - the rest of the section is "Flags should only be used if...", so what is the point of saying flags are discouraged?

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Why should readers only get a 'quick visual clue' for BJJ belts? Fighters who are notable due to their BJJ competition experience already have colour boxes. Just like Judo players do.

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The version that was reverted by GiantSnowman. I think it’s benefit is that it removed excessive repetition on one hand and puts the information worth kerping in more suitable place.

112:." Although I was not sure if the entire column was necessary, I only removed the flagicons, so the country information was still in the articles (see my version of the 2020 list, 2559:, with an added parameter to identify the martial art. Perhaps the rank templates themselves should be edited to be more automated in that case, but that is anouther discussion. 3726: 3675: 1401:. You need to actually read and understand the guideline, and stop just relexively advocating for all inclusion of all flags. "I wonder what the flag of Brunei looks like?" is 2797: 691:

It was an over-reaction, but this is no ordinary article. This is a MOS article. It does look like it was all a mistake in removing a sentence no one had agreed to remove.

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to the last version from September, before the recent edit war. If any body changes this without clear consensus and/or engages in edit warring, then blocks will follow.

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in Brazilian jiu-jitsu." If "non-bjj readers" are confused because other combat sports use different colour ranking systems, they can follow the same link, in this case

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I haven't read the guideline in detail, but I don't remember that a condition for the use of flags was sport. I thought the condition was to do with representation (per

240:. Moreover why does Australia need to be double highlighted (originally even triple)? I mean the word "Australia" is already present in those rows to state the obvious. 200:

As an avid H100 follower and as someone who has had some influence in the maintenance of some of the list arcitles (the 2014 list in particular), my opinion is if this

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for years and the policy is clear, flags in infoboxes serve no purpose, apart from the collapsible medal templates section to show what country an athlete represented.

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Hang on, I've misunderstood. I was under the impression that "the entire paragrapgh" was what you had quoted, not that you had quoted merely a part of that paragraph.

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One of the major points of MoS is to avoid redundancy, and for good reason: no informational text should have more than is necessary to express the information. (Cf.

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memorized these symbols. They don't do jack to help the average reader identify anything. PS: If judo articles are misusing icons like this, they need to stop. Cf.

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Being a pioneer and kick start the bjj in western world is one thing which no one could refute but being having a "said" notable competition achievement is another.

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the Country column is present and country names given. But the flags still overwhelm that, do match with the use of flag icons, and thus should still be removed. --

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that you're in the class of editors to whom this guideline is directed is not an argument for your position and against the guideline but rather the opposite.

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I was going to bring this up because I saw the same thing with one flag showing. The American Indian Wars link would work but probably caution that it meets

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that additional info is the colour of the belt worn by the subject of the article to denote his/her rank in Brazilian jiu-jitsu or Judo as in the case with

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it's jargon either way "black and red coral belt in jiu-jitsu" and "white and red coral belt in jiu-jitsu" does not improve on that, but both method can be

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as an example of too many icons. However, this example no longer applies: most of the icons that were visible on the page are located within arguments of

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not “any martial artist who practice bjj” and "any martial arts discipline they practice" but, as clearly stated in the opening statement of this RfC: “

2471: 1801:. Now matter how you turn it, these people actually directly represent these states, so using these flags in that article is not against the guidelines. 1027:

you that users considered this a controversial change, you went ahead and extended it to a range of other articles anyway. That is acting in bad faith.

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It should go without saying that if it's not appropriate to include national flags in this subject, it's not appropriate to include subnational ones.

1962:. You need to actually read what editors respond to you with, and adjust, instead of just recycling the same broken arguments thread after thread in 1526:

And you've done this complaint numerous times, which I began questioning, I mean, what are you trying to defend here? At least it ain't vandalized.

1101:. The fact that some other non-sport articles are also misusing decorative flags does not make for an argument to extend flag-abuse everywhere (see 481:

Just noting that I've restored the pre-dispute version - if some of the text should be kept/moved to a different position that should be discussed.

3533:. "I saw a terrible idea being used in some other article, so that means I get to impose the terrible idea at this article" isn't valid reasoning. 1004:", which is a long-debunked discussion point. The argument they have not mentioned here is that the flags are supposedly encyclopedic. I disagree. 391:

On a second thought, if we remove this, the paragraph may start looking like it's about allowance and not about deprecation ("However, the infobox

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Miss Universe is just one pageant amongst many. Please look at the official website for Miss World (the longest-existing international pageant):

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visual information compared to plain text. I respect your opinion but disagree about the comparison with flags, we've had endless debates about

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even when there is a "country", "nationality", "sport nationality" or equivalent field: they may give undue prominence to one field over others

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provides an icon to visually indicates the belt level, it is currently used in 135 infoboxes of individuals who have achieved notability in

1140:. However, in my opinion they "serve as visual cues that aid the reader's comprehension", as the MoS mentions. What's your opinion on that? 4148:

archive.org/WaybackMachine and use as a link instead of an internal permalink that will fail over time as templates are modified/changed? —

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Fair. I still believe the other way would look way better and would make it way easier for the reader to get an overview but fine I guess.

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WP doesn't use background colors that way. It's an accessibility problem, and the passage is already overemphasized (albeit on purpose).

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It serves a decorative not informative or navigational purpose. Read the guideline. Read the threads on this page. Read the archives.

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No-one going to bring more input here? Can we restore the version without the repitition, but with the sentence about sportspeople then?

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too.) Wordiness generally doesn't help understand the information better, but contrariwise: it just lowers the signal-to-noise ratio. —

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representing counties, but simply noting the origin of where the song came from, which is not an official recognition of nationality. --

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They are not representing the states/countries in any type of official capacity. They simply have come from those states or countries.

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this whole paragraph altogether, and I'll do this if there's no reasonable objections in a reasonable time (say, more than a week). —

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There really is no need to use such threatening language. As I said it was a misunderstanding. We can settle this like adult people.

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specifically to bring consistency to judoka articles in areas such as displayed ranks, among others. That is the reason for the

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Those are all national flags (with possibly the sole exception of Macau). That's not germane to my question about the use of

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I didn't even see country flags at the official Miss Universe website either, nor in press articles that list those winners.

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Rank icons provides the same salient information, without the need of cramming the infobox with long string of characters.

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means literally nothing to the casual reader. It's jargon. I'd support removing these icons and have it written in English

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Note I said "reasonably", i.e. sensibly in the context. I've already addressed this exact thing with you before just above

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Because the launches are purely geographic. They aren’t politically national. There is no nationalism involved whatsoever.

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this page. If we all had to stop editing the entire wiki when one editor disagrees with us, then the wiki wouldn't exist.

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Which specific version are you wanting to restore, and what do you see as the benefit of that version over the original?

4084: 3530: 1466:. I've gotten thanks from other editors for the same practice. The use of the icons is contrary to my understanding of 1102: 813:

I'm third to remove them. Flag icons, be it in infoboxes or elsewhere, are so notorious that I'd just kill them all. —

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policy, what should I depreciate the use of flag infobox for any settlements, but it's not required to put a flag on

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We do not have a criteria for BJJ yet so that unique requirement of BJJ only achievements does not exist, we follow

1470:. What is the opinion of this group of editors on the use of flag icons in such lists of pageant representatives? ☆ 908:. In that article there is a table listing the republics of Russia, which previously included the republics' flags. 3590: 2339: 2178: 2069: 2002: 1948: 1910: 1847: 1808: 1494: 1384: 1347: 1229: 1198: 920: 682: 569: 538: 522: 502: 247: 124: 120: 42: 3828:

A screenshot would do even better, especially on a page where the icons are large. That would be future-proof. –

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Royce Gracie precedes the existence of international BJJ competitions so looking for results is pointless. Per

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Making a screenshot where the conditions of the original example have been replicated in a sandbox may work.

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Having the Rank icon allows notable BJJ athletes who have transitioned to be immediately identified. Such as

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Because we're still reading here, in an unarchived thread, and I just now noticed that you were engaged in a

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How we use flag icons on WP is not a RGW issue, its how to make the work look professional and accessible.

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It was discussed. There was just a misunderstanding on the extent of what to be removed. It’s resolved now.

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I'm not even the biggest fan of flags in sports articles, but this doesn't even meet that bar. Flagcruft.

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Some time ago, flag icons were being used in the "launch" section of pages of streaming services such as

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those two articles to establish that it is general practice to include infoflagboxes in such articles. -

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Provides the reader a quick visual cue about a practitioner's expertise, a key fact for martial artists

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Yes, there are far too many flags. Everything seems to be a contest between nations. We should grow up.

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and they use flagicons in their lists, however it hasn't been around as long as the wikipedia articles.

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Rationale & discussion about allowing BJJRank icon in the infobox of notable BJJ practitioners:

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RfC Can notable Brazilian jiu-jitsu people display a rank icon in their infobox like Judo people do?

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Meanwhile I choose to change nothing as the lesser evil. But what do you think we can do about this?

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especially those do not provide sources which are very common. Not a good idea and keep it simple.

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that tried to demonstrate the emphasis of inline flag icons to the fullest degree got reverted by

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the different unless they are a bjj practitioner themselves). Keep it simple for general readers.

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I think it's useful and more consistent to have one way of displaying rank across all locations.

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This RfC is about adding a Rank icon to Brazilian jiu-jitsu people not to every martial art. The

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It is already too editorialised as it is. The sections shows an opinion, but presents it as fact.

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As with other biographical articles, flags are discouraged in sportspeople's individual infoboxes

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as they share a similar rank system. Judo clearly shows that this can be done without problem.

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Any consensus regarding flags in military personnel, ethnicity, settlement and among others? --

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These contestants directly represent these states. So relevancy can certainly be claimed here.

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a better one (though I am unfortunately unaware of any) or removed from the page completely?

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I think it's more intuitive that way and helpful for those with no knowledge of the sport. -

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who is one of the greatest BJJ champion but not notable for his accomplishments in Judo or

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and national championships and trials. Regarding the crossover with MMA, at the moment the

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MMA after a successful black belt career at the highest level. That is not that many, see

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An editor has said that I'm editing against consensus when removing sub-national flags as

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None of that makes the fact that he doesn't have notable BJJ only achievements untrue.

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Flags are a representation of these states, and by removing these subflags because of

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they don't use state flags, so if the competitions don't use the flags why would we?

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Is it against the guidelines to use flags in lists of honours received? For example,

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pattern that was worth addressing, lest it recur yet again in another thread later.

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has reverted edits twice in the past 24 hours. Settle this here on the talk page. -

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would show there is a consensus that their use in these situations is not accepted.

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Knowledge (XXG):Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 22 § Knowledge (XXG):XMASTREE

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It is repetitive, but what is the actual harm of having this information repeated?

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Your removal of the flags were correct; this isn't like Eurovision where the bands

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process that involves several levels of competition, and official representation.

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Preferably, automated using a wrapper template to ensure backward compatibility.

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It's a bit outside of this RfC, but yes, I'd say this is exactly what's needed.

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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Talk:List of Lockheed C-130 Hercules operators § Flag icons in section headings

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Talk:List of Lockheed C-130 Hercules operators § Flag icons in section headings

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field link to the article relevant to the specific martial art ranks' article.

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because they have reverted edits three times in the past 24 hours. I note that

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It doesn't have to be either or. A version that can be used is something like:

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will not result in "massive amount of work", not sure why you keep insisting.

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purposes, even if some substantial number of readers would recognize them. -

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represents a total of 33 articles, most of which already have the Rank icon.

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Please stop the edit warring on the project page. I just issued a warning to

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amended, then fine, whatever, but PLEASE leave the green backgrounds intact.

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would be a better example. It currently has 59 flag icons in the infobox. -

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which does not recommend nor proscribe the use of rank icons. The template

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countless sources will back that up but this is not really the topic here.

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BJJ fighters already have colour boxes. Ones who are notable for MMA dont.

3091:. If it's good enough for judoka, it's good enough for BJJ practitioners. 2837:

ground (grappling), stand up (strike and kicks) and some wrestling skills.

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BJJRank helps readers identify a key fact at a glance in accordance with

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still resulted in disagreement so I'm taking this here. Any thoughts? ~~

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What is this additional info? What colours things look like? Seems like

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Almost all the arguments brought here against the flags are nothing but

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Knowledge (XXG):Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 December 5 § MOS:fLAG

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Knowledge (XXG):Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 22 § MOS:XMASTREE

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I purpose the removal of flags from ethnicity infoboxes that may cause

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Sub-national flags used in lists of national beauty pageant contestants

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Allows greater abbreviation and therefore helps keeping infoboxes tidy

379:), I've been tempted to remove the clear repetition of the text above: 4001:

Talk:Ulster Scots people#RfC on inclusion of ancestral national flags

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The icon provides a quick visual cue of a practitioner's level, see

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Category:Brazilian jiu-jitsu practitioners who have competed in MMA

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Why on earth are you scolding me for a reply from four months ago?

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I gave some optional choices on the discussion page you linked to.

4064:. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at 3724:. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at 3673:. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at 2549:

on which it is based. Naturally I'll support such an addition to

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template in a list of countries inside an article? For instance

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individuals who have achieved notability in Brazilian jiu-jitsu

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it's even possible for "notable BJJ achievements" to happen.

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This query comes in the context of a discussion going on at

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Black belt in Kickboxing, Brown belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

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There’s no way you can know that. That’s just your opinion.

1105:); rather, it makes for a list of other pages to clean up. 863:

Member states of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations

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I support the adoption of the revision Tvx1 talks about.

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Knowledge (XXG) is not the place to right your percieved

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I'd be inclined to remove the flags from those articles.

1136:. They were removed with the reasoning of falling under 927:(coats of arms, since Mexican states don't have flags), 4052: 3712: 3661: 2413:, a closely related martial art, since 2012 (examples: 2356:

Notable Brazilian jiu-jitsu (BJJ) people currently use

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Show we remove them from Judo articles as well then?

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Black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Brown belt in Judo

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these articles do this, so this policy must not apply

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to determine whether its use and function meets the

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to determine whether its use and function meets the

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to determine whether its use and function meets the

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fighter helps quickly identify if they came from BJJ

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The following discussion is an archived record of a

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This is such a weird debate, as pointed out it by @

2863:I'm afraid the solution is simple. Carry on as is. 2323:

No further edits should be made to this discussion.

354:these MOSs have failed to put this in clear terms. 323:, where should they requests for comment anyway? -- 2332:There is consensus against inclusion of rank icons 3248:notable experience, which is the style parameter. 3954:MOS:FLAGS discussion with regard to Ulster again 3908:A MOS:FLAGS discussion at the main MoS talk page 2263:. The recent example what I removed flags from 1060:and templates and tables are different things. 381: 4103:Talk:Operation_Prosperity_Guardian#Houthi_flag 3930:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Manual of Style#MOS:FLAGS 2430:to "indicate belt colour for martial artists." 2326:A summary of the conclusions reached follows. 1058:Talk:Republics_of_Russia#Question_about_Table 906:Talk:Republics_of_Russia#Question_about_Table 8: 2433:Brings consistency between related infoboxes 1302:Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland#Honours 949:States of the Federated States of Micronesia 3482:ADCC Submission Fighting World Championship 2444:This question relates to discussions at: 2391:| rank = Red and black 7th deg. 3970:Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere. 3924:Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere. 3889:You are invited to join the discussion at 2597:That could be easily solved by having the 1826:specifically says not to use these flags. 996:Like I said in the referenced discussion, 945:States and federal territories of Malaysia 1128:Flag icons on pages of streaming services 2201:. Why can't we demonstrate it there? ~~ 900:Flags in tables of national subdivisions 3976:Talk:Ulster Scots people#Why the flags? 2225:; edited 20:47, 13 November 2022 (UTC) 288: 236:The green backgrounds are at odds with 2724: 2712: 1056:It was opposed by all contributors at 859:List of countries without armed forces 296:http://hottest100.org/hottest100s.html 48:Do not edit the contents of this page. 1173:Well, where is the govt relationship 395:contain the national flag icon ..."). 7: 18:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Manual of Style 3745:"Do not use too many icons" example 3211:) 11:59, 4 March 2023 (UTC) edited 3051:) 11:33, 4 March 2023 (UTC) edited 2987:Knowledge (XXG):Notability (people) 2983:Knowledge (XXG):Notability (sports) 2892:) 11:43, 4 March 2023 (UTC) edited 2820:) 11:40, 3 March 2023 (UTC) edited 2774:Knowledge (XXG):Notability (sports) 2622:7th degree black and red coral belt 2477:talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts 2371:Example with and without (from the 941:States and territories of Australia 867:Member states of the United Nations 848:related discussion in the talk page 305:Flagicons in cities, counties, etc. 2626:Brazilian jiu-jitsu ranking system 1822:isn't a IDONTLIKEIT argument. But 1298:Lyudmila Putina#Honours and medals 828:Flag template in list of countries 28: 1191:Govt declared official languages. 4045: 3959: 3913: 3884: 3749:Currently, the section links to 3705: 3654: 3634:The discussion above is closed. 3290:link to an article about ranking 2535:being so much more automated in 33: 4070:until a consensus is reached. 3751:Special:PermanentLink/124575520 3730:until a consensus is reached. 3679:until a consensus is reached. 3526:Without colored flag-like icons 2358:Template:Infobox martial artist 1405:a relevant question to ask at 961:Autonomous communities of Spain 137:Template:Infobox musical artist 119:, reverted 34 of them, missing 3445:: per arguments above made by 1314:16:18, 16 September 2022 (UTC) 855:Knowledge (XXG):Featured lists 1: 4101:I'd appreciate some input at 4028:06:37, 8 September 2023 (UTC) 4012: 3994:18:40, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 3978: 3933: 3534: 2719:stated. The same is true for 2472:talk:WikiProject Martial arts 2229: 2223:20:46, 13 November 2022 (UTC) 2183:19:11, 13 November 2022 (UTC) 2166:16:30, 13 November 2022 (UTC) 2016: 1975: 1953:19:15, 13 November 2022 (UTC) 1921: 1754: 1639: 1595: 1543: 1410: 1407:Queen Rania of Jordan#Honours 1357: 1320: 1294:Queen Rania of Jordan#Honours 1254: 1106: 818:17:50, 30 November 2021 (UTC) 809:19:23, 24 November 2021 (UTC) 797:12:26, 24 November 2021 (UTC) 786:09:11, 24 November 2021 (UTC) 723:02:32, 18 November 2021 (UTC) 611:17:10, 30 November 2021 (UTC) 364:12:50, 22 November 2021 (UTC) 106:Category:Triple J Hottest 100 4119:11:54, 26 January 2024 (UTC) 4092:03:58, 5 December 2023 (UTC) 4011:and Northern Ireland again. 2255:Flags in ethnicity infoboxes 2105:17:11, 6 December 2022 (UTC) 2091:14:56, 6 December 2022 (UTC) 2074:13:45, 6 December 2022 (UTC) 2054:04:15, 6 December 2022 (UTC) 1937:03:30, 25 October 2022 (UTC) 1915:20:55, 22 October 2022 (UTC) 1895:18:12, 21 October 2022 (UTC) 1883:01:42, 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(UTC) 654:18:13, 26 October 2021 (UTC) 625:10:36, 1 December 2021 (UTC) 574:21:09, 30 October 2021 (UTC) 558:15:52, 30 October 2021 (UTC) 543:14:46, 30 October 2021 (UTC) 527:22:05, 26 October 2021 (UTC) 507:16:48, 26 October 2021 (UTC) 491:12:27, 26 October 2021 (UTC) 471:07:28, 26 October 2021 (UTC) 457:23:00, 18 October 2021 (UTC) 436:12:28, 12 October 2021 (UTC) 422:07:39, 12 October 2021 (UTC) 407:23:50, 11 October 2021 (UTC) 3949:18:07, 23 August 2023 (UTC) 2467:talk:Infobox martial artist 1899:MOS:FLAGS does not request 1523:Representation = Relevance 1499:22:54, 3 October 2022 (UTC) 1482:18:03, 3 October 2022 (UTC) 1084:12:16, 3 October 2022 (UTC) 1070:15:25, 2 October 2022 (UTC) 1052:14:43, 2 October 2022 (UTC) 1037:13:28, 2 October 2022 (UTC) 1022:13:22, 2 October 2022 (UTC) 992:13:17, 2 October 2022 (UTC) 977:11:34, 2 October 2022 (UTC) 4176: 4161:00:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC) 3957: 3911: 3758:Infobox football biography 3608:20:30, 11 March 2023 (UTC) 3595:16:07, 11 March 2023 (UTC) 3564:15:43, 11 March 2023 (UTC) 2453:User_talk:Nswix#Colour_box 2348:11:20, 19 April 2023 (UTC) 2301:02:44, 24 March 2023 (UTC) 1006:This recent MOS discussion 921:Federative units of Brazil 333:00:26, 8 August 2021 (UTC) 274:13:48, 6 August 2021 (UTC) 252:13:04, 6 August 2021 (UTC) 232:05:42, 6 August 2021 (UTC) 215:05:33, 6 August 2021 (UTC) 172:00:53, 6 August 2021 (UTC) 150:23:49, 5 August 2021 (UTC) 3903:21:47, 13 July 2023 (UTC) 3629:02:23, 2 April 2023 (UTC) 3579:16:48, 7 March 2023 (UTC) 3550:04:39, 7 March 2023 (UTC) 3519:13:07, 6 March 2023 (UTC) 3500:12:14, 6 March 2023 (UTC) 3473:00:24, 6 March 2023 (UTC) 3426:19:52, 6 March 2023 (UTC) 3408:14:12, 6 March 2023 (UTC) 3391:17:38, 4 March 2023 (UTC) 3357:14:43, 4 March 2023 (UTC) 3320:12:26, 4 March 2023 (UTC) 3302:11:13, 4 March 2023 (UTC) 3284:23:24, 3 March 2023 (UTC) 3262:23:12, 3 March 2023 (UTC) 3241:23:49, 3 March 2023 (UTC) 3221:13:38, 6 March 2023 (UTC) 3176:22:29, 3 March 2023 (UTC) 3155:21:33, 3 March 2023 (UTC) 3133:20:35, 3 March 2023 (UTC) 3116:20:31, 3 March 2023 (UTC) 3101:17:37, 3 March 2023 (UTC) 3084:17:30, 3 March 2023 (UTC) 3061:13:38, 6 March 2023 (UTC) 3023:22:29, 3 March 2023 (UTC) 2999:18:09, 4 March 2023 (UTC) 2970:00:54, 4 March 2023 (UTC) 2955:20:05, 3 March 2023 (UTC) 2941:17:14, 3 March 2023 (UTC) 2925:11:03, 2 March 2023 (UTC) 2902:19:38, 4 March 2023 (UTC) 2873:20:02, 3 March 2023 (UTC) 2853:22:29, 3 March 2023 (UTC) 2830:13:39, 3 March 2023 (UTC) 2760:07:11, 3 March 2023 (UTC) 2737:10:49, 3 March 2023 (UTC) 2695:07:02, 3 March 2023 (UTC) 2673:21:48, 2 March 2023 (UTC) 2638:10:14, 2 March 2023 (UTC) 2611:23:04, 1 March 2023 (UTC) 2593:22:22, 1 March 2023 (UTC) 2569:16:42, 1 March 2023 (UTC) 2510:15:20, 1 March 2023 (UTC) 2245:05:49, 7 March 2023 (UTC) 2032:05:45, 7 March 2023 (UTC) 2007:05:04, 7 March 2023 (UTC) 1991:04:45, 7 March 2023 (UTC) 728:Football league infoboxes 597:I guess Tvx1 talks about 4124:TOOMANY example is stale 4058:redirects for discussion 4040:Redirects for discussion 3869:20:47, 25 May 2023 (UTC) 3853:02:42, 24 May 2023 (UTC) 3822:13:53, 24 May 2023 (UTC) 3812:02:31, 24 May 2023 (UTC) 3789:12:05, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 3776:17:20, 22 May 2023 (UTC) 3740:13:06, 22 May 2023 (UTC) 3718:redirects for discussion 3713:Knowledge (XXG):XMASTREE 3700:Redirects for discussion 3696:Knowledge (XXG):XMASTREE 3689:13:03, 22 May 2023 (UTC) 3667:redirects for discussion 3649:Redirects for discussion 3636:Please do not modify it. 2320:Please do not modify it. 2142:The user talk discussion 1340:Er,no! How would it be? 1248:13:15, 18 May 2022 (UTC) 1234:12:52, 18 May 2022 (UTC) 1218:12:40, 18 May 2022 (UTC) 1203:11:43, 18 May 2022 (UTC) 1187:10:57, 18 May 2022 (UTC) 1169:23:33, 17 May 2022 (UTC) 1150:22:30, 17 May 2022 (UTC) 925:List of states of Mexico 894:09:05, 17 May 2022 (UTC) 879:08:05, 17 May 2022 (UTC) 4105:. Am I misinterpreting 2723:'s infobox that states 2717:"understandable number" 2711:'s infobox just states 915:In discussion, I cited 2554:Infobox martial artist 2187:We used the flag with 1288:Flags in honours lists 937:Cantons of Switzerland 832:Is is okay to use the 601:, and I'll agree that 389: 4109:? Thanks in advance. 2379:| rank = 2340:ScottishFinnishRadish 1972:WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE 939:(and coats of arms), 769:WP:Other things exist 46:of past discussions. 3782:American Indian Wars 3334:7th deg. Black belt 3309:flags in the infobox 2802:Abu Dhabi Grand Slam 2544:Infobox sportsperson 2462:talk:Manual of Style 2448:Talk:Kron Gracie#Rfc 2428:Infobox sportsperson 2291:should be in place. 2267:Infobox ethnic group 755:The infoboxflags of 709:Request for comment? 102:Triple J Hottest 100 94:Triple J Hottest 100 4062:redirect guidelines 4056:has been listed at 3722:redirect guidelines 3716:has been listed at 3671:redirect guidelines 3665:has been listed at 2798:Abu Dhabi World Pro 2539:, in comparison to 2366:Brazilian jiu-jitsu 2315:request for comment 1966:fashion. See also 957:States of Venezuela 4009:MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE 3531:WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS 3379:MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE 2794:Brazilian National 1576:Miss Teen USA 2022 1572:MOS:WORDPRECEDENCE 1103:WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS 647:User:Mike Novikoff 349:wrt some countries 318:Infobox settlement 104:yearly lists (see 100:I came across the 4107:MOS:SOVEREIGNFLAG 3471: 2683:Template:JudoRank 2498:WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE 2409:Has been used by 2213: 2212:I made a mistake? 2156: 2155:I made a mistake? 2134:This edit of mine 2129:Further emphasis? 1824:MOS:FLAGRELEVANCE 1506:MOS:FLAGRELEVANCE 1468:MOS:FLAGRELEVANCE 1399:MOS:FLAGRELEVANCE 1240:CanePlayz (Jacob) 1210:CanePlayz (Jacob) 1179:CanePlayz (Jacob) 1142:CanePlayz (Jacob) 1138:WP:ICONDECORATION 933:States of Austria 929:States of Germany 775:Laser Victor 2017 659:Seconded. I have 603:at the very least 377:current permalink 347:MOS:Flagrelevance 343:MOS:Sovereignflag 89: 88: 58: 57: 52:current talk page 4167: 4146: 4090: 4055: 4049: 4026: 3992: 3971: 3963: 3962: 3947: 3925: 3917: 3916: 3888: 3887: 3849: 3844: 3808: 3802: 3762: 3756: 3715: 3709: 3664: 3658: 3604: 3548: 3498: 3496: 3470: 3468: 3404: 3367: 3316: 3280: 3186: 3174: 3172: 3129: 3033: 3021: 3019: 2980: 2851: 2849: 2758: 2756: 2705: 2679:Template:BJJRank 2671: 2669: 2656: 2591: 2589: 2558: 2552: 2548: 2542: 2526: 2520: 2482:talk:Kron Gracie 2322: 2290: 2282: 2270: 2243: 2218: 2211: 2208: 2196: 2190: 2161: 2154: 2151: 2101: 2083: 2051: 2030: 1989: 1935: 1903:representation. 1875: 1831: 1768: 1742: 1682: 1665: 1653: 1609: 1569: 1557: 1475: 1449: 1424: 1371: 1334: 1268: 1161: 1120: 1099:Chuvash Republic 841: 835: 784: 782: 776: 754: 596: 386: 322: 316: 298: 293: 266: 224: 164: 85: 60: 59: 37: 36: 30: 4175: 4174: 4170: 4169: 4168: 4166: 4165: 4164: 4128: 4126: 4099: 4089: 4071: 4051: 4043: 3972: 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11: 5: 4173: 4171: 4143:LaundryPizza03 4125: 4122: 4098: 4095: 4075: 4042: 4032: 4031: 4030: 3958: 3955: 3952: 3912: 3909: 3906: 3881: 3877:Discussion at 3875: 3874: 3873: 3872: 3871: 3863: 3826: 3825: 3824: 3770: 3746: 3743: 3702: 3692: 3651: 3641: 3633: 3632: 3631: 3621:TaylorKobeRift 3614: 3613: 3612: 3611: 3610: 3568: 3567: 3566: 3523: 3522: 3521: 3475: 3439: 3438: 3437: 3436: 3435: 3434: 3433: 3432: 3431: 3430: 3429: 3428: 3374: 3359: 3346: 3333: 3325: 3266: 3265: 3264: 3249: 3245: 3244: 3243: 3228: 3225: 3224: 3223: 3193: 3104: 3103: 3086: 3069: 3068: 3067: 3066: 3065: 3064: 3063: 3005: 3004: 3003: 3002: 3001: 2906: 2905: 2904: 2877: 2876: 2875: 2861: 2834: 2833: 2832: 2741: 2740: 2739: 2697: 2681:is similar to 2644: 2643: 2642: 2641: 2640: 2571: 2537:Infobox judoka 2522:Infobox judoka 2512: 2485: 2484: 2479: 2474: 2469: 2464: 2442: 2441: 2434: 2431: 2424: 2411:Infobox judoka 2407: 2404: 2397: 2396: 2388: 2387: 2353: 2351: 2330: 2329: 2328: 2309: 2307: 2304: 2293:Surveyor Mount 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477: 476: 475: 474: 473: 450:MOS:REDUNDANCY 446:MOS:REPEATLINK 372: 367: 350: 336: 325:49.150.110.214 306: 303: 300: 299: 287: 286: 285: 284: 283: 282: 281: 280: 279: 278: 277: 276: 195: 194: 193: 192: 185: 184: 183: 182: 175: 174: 97: 90: 87: 86: 79: 74: 69: 66: 56: 55: 38: 27: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 4172: 4163: 4162: 4159: 4155: 4151: 4144: 4140: 4136: 4135:Donald Albury 4132: 4123: 4121: 4120: 4116: 4112: 4108: 4104: 4096: 4094: 4093: 4087: 4086: 4081: 4080: 4074: 4069: 4068: 4063: 4059: 4054: 4050:The redirect 4048: 4041: 4037: 4033: 4029: 4024: 4021: 4018: 4017: 4010: 4006: 4002: 3998: 3997: 3996: 3995: 3990: 3987: 3984: 3983: 3977: 3966: 3953: 3951: 3950: 3945: 3942: 3939: 3938: 3931: 3920: 3907: 3905: 3904: 3900: 3896: 3892: 3880: 3876: 3870: 3866: 3862: 3860: 3856: 3855: 3854: 3850: 3845: 3839: 3838: 3835: 3832: 3827: 3823: 3820: 3819:Donald Albury 3815: 3814: 3813: 3809: 3803: 3797: 3793: 3792: 3791: 3790: 3787: 3786:Donald Albury 3783: 3778: 3777: 3773: 3769: 3767: 3759: 3752: 3744: 3742: 3741: 3737: 3733: 3729: 3728: 3723: 3719: 3714: 3710:The redirect 3708: 3701: 3697: 3693: 3691: 3690: 3686: 3682: 3678: 3677: 3672: 3668: 3663: 3659:The redirect 3657: 3650: 3646: 3642: 3637: 3630: 3626: 3622: 3618: 3615: 3609: 3606: 3605: 3598: 3597: 3596: 3592: 3589: 3586: 3582: 3581: 3580: 3577: 3576:Donald Albury 3572: 3569: 3565: 3561: 3557: 3553: 3552: 3551: 3546: 3543: 3540: 3539: 3532: 3527: 3524: 3520: 3516: 3512: 3507: 3503: 3502: 3501: 3497: 3495: 3489: 3488: 3483: 3479: 3476: 3474: 3469: 3466: 3462: 3456: 3452: 3448: 3444: 3441: 3440: 3427: 3423: 3419: 3415: 3411: 3410: 3409: 3406: 3405: 3398: 3394: 3393: 3392: 3388: 3384: 3380: 3375: 3372: 3365: 3360: 3358: 3354: 3350: 3345: 3341: 3339: 3332: 3328: 3323: 3322: 3321: 3318: 3317: 3310: 3305: 3304: 3303: 3299: 3295: 3291: 3287: 3286: 3285: 3282: 3281: 3274: 3272: 3267: 3263: 3259: 3255: 3250: 3246: 3242: 3238: 3234: 3229: 3226: 3222: 3218: 3214: 3210: 3206: 3202: 3198: 3194: 3191: 3190:this category 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404:Mike Novikoff 399: 396: 394: 388: 380: 378: 371: 368: 366: 365: 361: 357: 356:219.76.24.198 348: 344: 340: 337: 335: 334: 330: 326: 319: 312: 304: 297: 292: 289: 275: 271: 267: 260: 255: 254: 253: 249: 246: 243: 239: 235: 234: 233: 229: 225: 218: 217: 216: 212: 208: 203: 199: 198: 197: 196: 189: 188: 187: 186: 179: 178: 177: 176: 173: 169: 165: 158: 154: 153: 152: 151: 147: 143: 138: 135:of the year. 132: 130: 126: 122: 118: 114: 111: 107: 103: 95: 92:Flagicons in 91: 84: 80: 78: 75: 73: 70: 67: 65: 62: 61: 53: 49: 45: 44: 39: 32: 31: 23: 19: 4127: 4100: 4083: 4077: 4065: 4044: 4038:" listed at 4015: 3999:Now an RfC: 3981: 3973: 3936: 3928:Please see: 3927: 3883: 3836: 3833: 3830: 3779: 3748: 3725: 3704: 3698:" listed at 3674: 3662:MOS:XMASTREE 3653: 3647:" listed at 3645:MOS:XMASTREE 3635: 3616: 3603:Lee Vilenski 3600: 3570: 3537: 3525: 3493: 3486: 3477: 3464: 3460: 3455:Lee Vilenski 3442: 3403:Lee Vilenski 3400: 3364:Lee Vilenski 3335: 3315:Lee Vilenski 3312: 3279:Lee Vilenski 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Knowledge (XXG)

talk:Manual of Style/Icons/Archive 17 - Knowledge (XXG)

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