636:. Hello NPP school instructors! We'd like to update the list of active instructors, in preparation for putting out a call for more instructors. Can you please reply here and state 1) if you are currently accepting new NPP school students, and 2) if you are not, if you have plans to resume NPP school instruction in the future? At the moment only Cassiopeia and Zippybonzo are listed as accepting students. Also, feel free to give any other thoughts you have about NPP school, your experiences teaching it, and its future. Thanks! β
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345:, only three users went through NPP school in the last year. It lists seven active trainers, but two of them explicitly state they are not taking on new students and one is taking an indefinite break from NPP, leaving four actually available trainers, only two of which have taken a student in the last year. In total 32 students have 'graduated' in the five or so years NPP school has been running, compared to roughly
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range of peers and, above all, their own personal experience and and reading of community policy, not a single trainer's take on how to handle new pages. We can put out a call now and get a bunch people to put their name in a table, but if most of the work has been put on Atsme's shoulders despite having half a dozen or more trainers listed for the last six years, why will it be different this time? β
306:(but not all) of NPRs do that I think can be (partially) automated, although I am am not sure 1) if it is feasible for a bot to constantly update data on whether a page is linked to a mainspace article and whether it has categories, 2) many editors do enjoy gnoming, and 3) it won't have a huge effect in reducing the backlog, only save the time of many diligent WikiGnomes.
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are detected, it won't work for complex cases but is better than nothing). However, bots shouldn't be used to automatically tag 50%+ copyvio articles per Earwig with revdel/copyright problem/G12 because of the significant rate of false positives (public domain, CC-BY-SA-3.0 compatible license, list of book titles, list of studies, and the like).
98:. If we could automate the tedious parts and leave human reviewers to review only those articles that are notable, follow MOS, and are actually qualified for inclusion. AfC should only be releasing qualified articles, so maybe it is time to stop allowing just anyone to create articles in mainspace. Just a thought.
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The backlog is obviously surging again just a month after the previous backlog drive. I would argue that if feasible, a bot can be used to perform the
Wikignome tasks (i.e., tagging for orphans, uncategorised, or detect basic cases where the title within body is not bolded, sort of like how AfD votes
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Probably the "best of both worlds" would be to clarify what it is and what it's place is. It sounds like what its place is is a thorough training program (just) for people who choose that route. This would avoid the downside of scaring away people who would feel guilty/second class for trying NPP
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Apologies for sounding like a broken record, but...surely there must be a way to automate NPP backlogs without depending on volunteers to carry the full load. A BOT could automatically reject unsourced articles and provide a relative response to the article creator, and the same for submissions with
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I think NPP school is great and should be revitalized rather than closed. I think most students that finished the program will agree with me and attest to its usefulness. I am an NPP school graduate, and the opportunity to train under and receive the mentorship of a top patroller really skyrocketed
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By my count you've trained nearly two thirds of the people who've been through NPP School, Atsme, so you've already picked up plenty of slack! But honestly, not to in any way lessen that work, but I think that is another weakness of the NPP School model. New NPPers should be learning from a broad
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I think that the "I'm not good enough/ I'm not doing it good/thoroughly enough" sentiment is a drag on participation. Like when somebody rips me a new one for not doing a thorough search and analysis of literature in China to confirm lack of GNG coverage before AFD'ing an article. "Didn't go
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admins do not think NPP School is necessary to become a new page patroller. There's a small minority of reviewers who did come through it, and presumably found it useful, but realistically, with the small number of trainers, that opportunity is not really there for most people even if they were
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The same goes with drafting unreferenced articles- the automatic detections on PageCuration software doesn't work for articles with no footnotes but with general referencing or other unusual citation formats (which is a fairly high false positive rate). I also don't agree that
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Every article in the new page feed is the work of a human being who, whether or not you like the result, almost certainly contributed it in good faith. Rejecting them without even having another human being look at them is a terrible idea and would be disastrous for the
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I disagree with Joe here. As a graduate myself, I can say firsthand that PERM admins consider going through the school an asset. I was declined one week, went through NPP school for a few weeks, and was accepted right away. It is a net positive and should stay. -
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I'm happy to pick-up any slack if all the other teachers have students. It's the holiday season so my volunteer time is strained until after the New Year. Let's give the other teachers a chance to teach. I will keep an eye out if things get overly busy.
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A copyvio detection bot would suffer from the same problems with edge cases. Just because something is 50% on Earwig doesn't mean it's necessarily a copyright violation. It could be public domain, a big list of book titles, etc. We do use bots such as
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Back in 2016 when
Kudpung was trying to reorganize NPP and make the NPP school more of a thing (I know it was already a thing, but it was underutilized - and I have no earthly idea why I did not add myself as a trainer back then), I put together a
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maintenance tag), and measurably decreasing the chance that the article will be improved by moving it to a much less visible namespace. If you're interested, I recently wrote more about why I don't draftify articles when patrolling at
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The wikignome stuff such as maintenance tags aren't a required part of the flowchart. It can be skipped to speed up reviewing. The important parts of the flowchart are CSD (which includes copyvio check), notability, and title check.
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I went through NPP school and it was most definitely helpful. I can't see a reason to depreciate it just because it's not in constant use. It's designed for people to chose to take the course to become a better patroller.
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I like your thinking. We should always be looking for ways to make our processes more efficient. Too bad the problems are a bit on the complicated side. Many of the simple solutions have already been implemented, I think!
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A bot that auto draftified articles with no citations might have trouble detecting if general references or a weird citation format are used. We do have a report for likely candidates though, to help reviewers spot them:
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NPP school is a process that has helped 32 people become better patrollers, and hurt 0 people. It is a net positive, and should be continued as long as there are volunteers willing to put time into it, which there are.
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No worries. I ended up creating an "inactive" section and moved some folks down there. Feel free to move yourself back up if you get time in the future. Thanks for all the time you spend on wiki-related activities.
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is not set up to be a tool for teaching others, mostly just a place to dump thoughts and frustrations, but I may use some of those observations to teach students to avoid common pitfalls. I don't know. ~
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I'm not able to take on new students at this time. If you want to remvoe me from the list because I don't know when I will take new students that's fine but I'm also very good with being kept on. Best,
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I don't think there's currently consensus to decline/reject/AFD articles simply because they have MOS problems such as no headings or a non-bolded title. MOS is not part of the flowcharts of NPP or AFC.
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Also your regular reminder that there is no policy prohibiting the creation of unsourced articles and draftifying articles solely because they lack citations is a questionable practice, at best. β
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I was honestly thinking of doing my own thing. I only put my availability as one student at a time, and I thought what I did would be based on what the student's starting skills looked like. ~
215:. So if you're draftifying something purely because it's unsourced, you're removing an article from mainspace that doesn't actually violate any policies, skipping over preferable options (like
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interested. With backlogs and recruitment both pressing issues, I'm also not sure why we would want to encourage people to go through a lengthy training process rather than simply applying at
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As I said, you're in a rather extreme minority there. What is the benefit of trying to revitalise a process that the vast majority of reviewers have not found it worth engaging with? β
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It helps a lot. Thank you very muchΒ :) Are you thinking of copying the long curriculum that most of the instructors use, or Atsme's short curriculum, or doing your own thing? β
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313:. For example, consistent false positive tags and flaggings of copyvio based only a bot would definitely deter newcomers and possibly dwindle the editing base. Thanks.
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By contrast, the key steps are often contentious clearly require human judgement (based upon current bot capabilities), and would have a much higher risk of having a
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means that a fact cannot be verified at all, not that it is currently lacking a citation. Our verifiability policy does not require that everything is cited, only
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That can work, but Iβd definitely suggest looking at the other curriculums for inspiration. It also explains more about what things should be taught. Thanks!
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copyvios, poor sourcing, etc. BOTs can tag them quicker and more efficiently. Actually, a BOT could work hand-in-hand with the source rating BOTs such as
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the person would need to be familiar with, but I'm not sure if that's the curriculum you are referring to. Where can I find Atsme's short curriculum?
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I should have time to take on new students but am starting a job next month so I'm not 100% on top of my schedule and availability just yet.
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It's been on my list to reach out to the list of trainers and get the list updated, then put out a call for more trainers. Will do so now. β
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So yep I am taking students admittedly lost touch with a few but I am working with one at the moment who hopefully will show some merit.
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which I thought would be a good starting point for evaluating a person's skills. I'm not sure if I would use that today or not.
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I don't think we have to worry about the latter, given that at least 95% of current patrollers didn't bother with NPP School. β
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There is consensus against removing the school and the coordinators are actively working to revamp it. Thanks! - π₯
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I've also, since I became an admin, been keeping some notes on some of the issues I'm seeing with speedy tags.
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to look for likely copyright violations and put them in a report, but the final decision needs a human touch.
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I didn't go through NPP school myself, but I agree it would be better to revitalize rather than close it. -
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Yeah, I know, and often skip these processes myself. I am mainly arguing that is the only part that
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Okay. Youβve made that clear above, but I have a different experience and therefore disagree. - π₯
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195:) articles a questionable practice? Not trying to be snarky, genuinely trying to learn.
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I went ahead and re-wrote the trainer's resources just now. Hope this is more helpful:
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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and getting stuck in immediately β which is what most people do anyway.
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article that is unreferenced should automatically be processed by a bot.
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as a frequent draftifier, why is draftifying unsourced (and therefore un
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through NPP school" is of course only one possibility for this.
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Well, as a PERM admin, I can say firsthand that I don't... β
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Knowledge (XXG):New pages patrol/School/Instruction methods
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I have just added myself to the list, if that helps any. ~
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Knowledge (XXG):New pages patrol/School#Available
Trainers
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I am happy to take up more students under my guidance.
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damaging effect to newcomers due to false positives
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