Knowledge talk:Notability (sports)/Archive 22

764:. The problem I have with the existing guidelines and the proposals is that they are really only describing boxers that are 'highly notable'. It doesn't follow that everyone else is not notable, but that is very often the interpretation of such guidelines. I'm not sure we are going to be able to come up with a broad statement that applies in every country. In the UK, for example, anyone ranked top 10 in their weight class is pretty much guaranteed to be notable enough to have an article, and it would be fairly easy to show that they satisfy the GNG. Historically boxing was probably even more popular in Britain than it is today, and domestic contests even more significant, so the same should apply to historical boxers for which coverage can be harder to find. Many outside the top 10 in the UK will also have received enough coverage to justify an article. Every other country will be different. The Commonwealth (and previously British Empire) title is prestigious enough that anyone who has fought for it is pretty much guaranteed to be notable. In terms of World ranking organizations, generally the top 30-50 (at least) in the world in any weight class will be notable enough, but because this may not *always* be true we end up with a guideline that people will use (and have used) to get articles deleted when someone is outside the top 10/15 and the article is under-sourced. As Donniediamond noted above, when talking about the top 10-15, these are not just notable boxers, these are world class boxers - we shouldn't limit Knowledge to only world class boxers - we don't do that for any other major sport. BBBofC Area titles were discussed above - my feeling is that many Area title holders will be notable enough but it's not enough to make notability a certainty - in some weight classes there have been area champions who were pretty much novices who have never gone any higher and haven't received much beyond a bit of local coverage. English title - probably notable. -- 4020:

Paralympics=less famous than Olympics=needs different rules, overall there was a lack of knowledge/awareness/understanding about the Paralympics from some of those involved hence the "little to no idea" comment. 20 or even 10 years ago that argument would have been solid but it no longer is. I'll choose to assume you aren't insinuating that I personally don't write well sourced articles but the fact is that lots of short, stubby articles will get written in the coming months with citations to results where the athletes are mentioned in passing (i.e. routine coverage). As a bare minimum each athlete will have a profile on the Games website (that alone might allow them to pass GNG depending on how they are written this time around) and plenty of coverage elsewhere, so to me going through a separate AfD every time isn't a productive use of time and resources but hey ho, I'm confident all will be able to be proven notable in the end and can see opinion here isn't likely to change -

526:. Far as the nations go, yes #4 is a moving target as well and I am not thrilled about it. However, at least that has a more limited time frame of about 40 years than 120+ years. For the professional national titles, what do you think about something like "national titles of nations that claim at least 8 distinct world champions". This way nations that have solid histories are included, but not every nation that has an obscure title holder (the number 8 since there are 8 original weight classes, so in total the whole spectrum can be considered as represented). I just think the Guyana example I raised before would allow for too much, but the eight limit would include many nations like US, Canada, Australia, many European nations, etc. With eight world champions, it can be fairly presumed boxing is a big sport in that country, is well covered, and there is significant coverage for national titles. 2943:

those. The goal of this was to get a much more clear and defined picture. Adding these to what is already out there only muddles the water more. To replace what is already there needs a lot more commentary as that would expressly exclude a lot of sports some already feel are covered. I dont even think the gender is that much of an issue as only one editor raised a question on how notable something like woman's soccer is. I would be willing to make more narrow (e.g., only the men's sports listed above and maybe 1st team AA woman's basketball), but we don't really have much comment on even that issue. Again, considering the discussion on the boxing and MMA proposals, I would have thought more would have something to say about this.

731:

is that is has been largely devalued over the course of the last 15 to 20 years mainly due to the cost of Visas and flights but also because promoters are more interested in Intercontinental titles. Historically you would generally have had to win a National title (Canadian, Aussie, British, SA, NZ etc) to have gone on and fought for the Commonwealth title. All those boxers will be automatically notable under the new Criteria #2. These days it is less well regarded and pretty much a filler until you get a British title fight and is almost exclusively fought for by British fighters. I think having the National title criteria and having the Top 15 criteria covers the need to include these titles specifically in the new proposal. --

3615:

the guidelines. As many of the contibutors state the idea is to give a temporary reprieve to athletes who would then be needed to pass GNG etc. I see no reason there should be a distinction between Olympians and Paralympians. It seems, looking at those older discussions, anyone that has actually followed and worked on Paralympic and Olympic articles was convinced that there should be no distinction and only those that had little to no idea argued the alternative. I raise this afresh as there will be many stubs created about 2016 Paralympians in the coming months and they will all easily pass GNG if anyone give sthem the time and I really can't be bothered to go through multiple deletion debates for the sake of it -

185:. The guideline is already too restrictive and this appears to make it even more so. In terms of British boxing, many boxers are notable who don't get to fight for a British title or higher. This effect of this change appears to be to limit notability to those that won British titles. This is out of step with the guidelines for every other major sport. Many British boxers who never get to fight for a British title get plenty of coverage, are 'well known' enough to be included, but this guideline would suggest we only accept the national champions, completely out of keeping with the guidelines for other major sports such as rugby, football, cricket, etc., none of which require subjects to be 'world class'. -- 1229:

considered regional bodies and thus give regional belts. So I think it would need to be something like "Have fought for a World title (full or interim) or regional title (full only) for one of the following current or historical major sanctioning bodies, its predecessor or recognized affiliate..." That is accurate with what titles regional bodies grant (note: the world full or interim or regional full only is consistent with what is out there. Also, speaking of titles, could duration and colored titles be added. They are historical relics and were removed from the old guidelines with no real reason given. Considering how some use the SNGs as a hard pass/fail, I think those are useful to add.

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is passed and now sits 11th in both. In 2017, does the article get deleted because the presumption is no longer valid? Or is it that if at any point the player is in the top ten? With that, some could take this the other way and say all the top ten scorers after the first season would be considered notable - technically meets the guideline, but that logic isn't really with the spirit of the guideline. I would say its more like someone that at one point was in the top ten at any point after the league's tenth season. That gets at what I think we all mean. Again, not that the proposed language is wrong, but I worry about clarity going forward.

496:

organisations can change for political reasons but the makeup of the Top 20 varies very little. As a quick exercise I went through the heavyweight rankings for the WBO, WBC, IBF, BoxRec, The Ring and fightnews.com and there was a only total of 37 boxers. That show a high level of agreement across the recognised bodies. All 37 of those boxers already have a Knowledge article except one, Andrey Fedosov, and Fedosov would pass notability under A#1. So, whilst there may be cynicism over rankings and I am cynical myself at times, the facts bare out that it is a very strong indicator of notability.

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don't see a fighters that win gaining that much more coverage than a fighter that loses. As the guidelines stand now, if you fight 3 times we presume enough coverage exists. I don't see how winning two fights would be that different from losing two - coverage is generated from two fights. Winning those fights may mean someone is better than someone that loses two, but I don't see them becoming more notable. If the guidelines need changed, then I am open to it. However, I don't think making the metric based on winning or losing for a sport with the structure of MMA makes sense.

331:). Also members of team sports is not really a comparable metric. If we are to compare one should consider other individual sports and more specifically other fighting sports. Compared to kickboxing or MMA for example I don't think the bar for boxing is much higher - all aim for the principle of competing at the highest level and there has to be some indicator that an individual is actually doing that. A undefeated record does not do that - just means his promoter is doing his job, nor does it matter who their promoter is. Title fights really are the best option for boxing. 3340:). However, that was the only year he played and now is nowhere near the top ten. So at one point he was top ten, but now isn't. Would the presumption change - in 1989 he was presumed notable but now isn't? I think that is just messy that presumptions change and gives little use to the guidelines. I would prefer something like "all-time top ten career scorer at any point after the league's tenth season." This way players like Climo are not given a presumption they should not, yet as more players score and move up lists older players do not have their presumption changed. 3558:. I believe once, long ago, I was involved in drafting this guideline, and it was not worded to distinguish between Olympians and Paralympians but somewhere along the line that changed. If the idea is to establish articles of athletes who are "likely to have received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject" then such a distinction should not be made. I move to change the rule to "they have competed at the modern Olympic OR PARALYMPIC Games" and remove the need to be a medallist at te Paralympic Games. Thoughts? - 657:(EBU-EU) title, as well as the Commonwealth title. BBBofC English title I'm a bit unsure on, but then that would be the equivalent of the EBU-EU title which is a regional title of the full European (EBU) one. BBBofC Southern Area title (and others similar)—no. I also disagree with notability being granted for a boxer who has only fought for a regional-level title of the Big Four sanctioning bodies; e.g. Fedalatin, Asia-Pacific, Inter-Continental, International, etc. Interim titles I'm fine with, as they often get upgraded to full world titles anyway. 346:

like kickboxing and MMA - they are not mainstream international sports in the way boxing is. Anyone who gets close to fighting for a national title in one of the major boxing nations is going to be notable enough for inclusion, and even being ranked in the top 10 in some of these countries will pretty much guarantee enough coverage to satisfy WP:GNG. There are plenty of boxers whose careers don't really get anywhere - we should exclude those unless there's some other good reason for inclusion, but this proposal sets the bar way too high. --

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sport specific followings and the national champions can be considered equivalent of first team All-Americans. For No. 4, since football and basketball are covered so much at the college level in the U.S., major award winners of the lower divisions also should have notability. For the second note, as some have said, non-Americans don't understand how much college sports are followed in the U.S. This can carve them out while still letting the sports specific projects function on their own sport as they see fit (e.g., if

3844:

Google and find the sources above. I think a part of the idea behind these guidelines is to allow for those editors familiar with a subject to judge what should be "presumed" (that's the key word, notability still has to be established on a case by case basis) notable and I don't believe there is a distinction to be made between Paralympians and Olympians, particularly in the modern era. I'd also point out that a number of sports already presume notability for all Paralympians in their guidelines -

1313:. It needs to be addressed clearly what is included and what is not - otherwise we are in the same ambiguous spot as before. With my last comment, are we really only talking world titles or do we want some regional? It would seem odd to me that the winner of the WBA NABA title would not be be considered passing, but the winner of the lesser WBA NABA-USA title would under criterion No. 2 since the lesser is national and the greater is regional. Do we need an actual list such as 3898:

SNGs to the various WikiProjects was certainly a sensible reform, but you're badly mistaken if you believe that they were thereby immunized against review or approval by the community, or that the unsupported judgment of their proponents was not to be questioned. Let's also not pretend that a "number" of sports presume notability for all Paralympians. Two do: curling and equestrian sports, and I'd be very interested in seeing the evidence of the associated projects for the same.

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regarding press coverage and why it would be difficult to find in some cases while demonstrating how easy it is to find in many. Yes those countries have large English language press coverage but I don't have newspapers from the 70s to hand. So perhaps you'd like to counter those "unsupported judgment"s as part of a review by the community rather than replying in a tone and manner that might be interpreted as you thinking I'm a moron. Also last I checked

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guidance that many college players ARE notable because some sports are covered at the same level as professional sports. I'd almost just favor a tiered system that covers a couple of sports (maybe just football and men's basketball if we can be honest and apolitical), maybe there is another tier like college baseball, hockey and women's basketball which has a higher threshold, then maybe the rest are GNG. That would actually reflect reality more.

31: 1627:. Does that mean a person named to any college football All-American team is entitled to an article, or is it only certain All-American teams? (There are so many!) The person I am wondering about was third-team All-American in the 1930s for the NANA (North American Football Alliance), an organization which either no longer exists or has a new name now, but that may well have been a notable honor in the 1930s. Any advice appreciated. -- 5055:(for each individual athlete at least, although the article may constitute non-routine coverage of the event or the team because they are the focus of the article) and the first article above doesn't seem to solely focus on that one athlete (perhaps my English translation was poor). I don't think those sources can be utilized as the *sole* sources to establish notability, although I'm not 100% sure on that. Could others chime in? -- 2887:(I'm pretty sure track gets more media coverage than some of the other sports mentioned, and it certainly did so in the deep past; so if this is an iffy guideline for track, I have serious doubts about how well it works with other sports. Admittedly, NTRACK has so many other criteria that many NCAA champions will pass it anyhow - which is not the case for some other sports - so NTRACK has less use for a criterion like this.) 636:

the quality and therefore coverage of the competition. The Commonwealth Games and European Athletics Championships are at the highest level because of the prestige, coverage, success of nations involved, nations send top athletes, etc. Does not matter if it limits competition to certain nations. Similarly, fighting for the EBU or commonwealth title (and many other similar titles) would make someone presumed notable.

1139:

The distinction would mean that anyone arguing for or against notability for boxers falling below this guideline would need to present an argument beyond 'satisfies/fails NBOX', also taking into account the GNG, historically significant belts, etc.. It may seem obvious that GNG is an alternative route to notability yet we still keep getting boxers taken to AfD based purely on 'failing' a much disputed guideline. --

1706:. I am not at all suggesting expanding the NCOLLATH guideline, just pointing it out that it varies by sport. Basketball may be a bit different in that the All-America teams are small - really a third-teamer is still considered a top 15 player in the country by a voting body with credibility. If I have question I usually research to see if the person meets GNG, which is the more important standard anyway. 4336:“we discussed this years ago and the Olympics are more popular”. The concept behind these guidelines, as best as I can tell, is to allow a little wriggle room so that articles with limited sourcing aren't immedietly comdemmed to the AfD scrapheap; they merely state in each case that a person is “presumed notable”. I'm fully aware that notability isn't confirmed by meeting any guideline at 1548:

Caribbean title winner isn't. A losing challenger for the Nicaraguan title is presumed notable, but the FECARBOX title winner (a quite highly notable title, almost on the level of EBU) isn't. A losing challenger for the South Korean title is presumed notable, but the WBC Asian recognized title winner title isn't. A losing challenger for the Ghanaian title is presumed notable, but the

788:

number to other similarly situated sports (historically significant, individual sport, worldwide coverage/appeal). I agree that many editors use these as stone guidelines, where an athlete failing = no article. That is unfortunate, but nothing these guidelines can magically fix. However, with the fractured nature of boxing I think what Donniediamond proposes is as good as we can get.

1321:) or inherent affiliate (for example WBO International) of one of the above sanctioning bodies"? That way we have three tiers - tier I: fought for a world title, tier II: won a regional title, or tier III: won a national title for a major boxing nation. I think this clarification needs to take place or otherwise we keep having articles go up for AfD without a useful guideline. 2720:. That being said, there isn't really a participation problem here, but since it's a change that would have far reaching consequences to the project, it may require wider input than simply those that watch this talk page. In any case it was merely a recommendation, and after reviewing the current discussion, there isn't a consensus to implement this change. 390:

titles do, some don't. Amateur national titles do a reasonable job, professional less so. I would like to see the criteria clarified for regional and national titles and am not to bothered if there is some loosening or tightening. I am not opposing or endorsing the above but again would certainly want some indication what is meant by top-level competition.

3211:"#4: Achieved preeminent honors in a lower minor or major junior league (all-time top ten career scorer or First Team All-Star), or in an NCAA Division I collegiate hockey league (all-time top ten career scorer or First or Second Team All-American). (Note: merely playing in one of these leagues is not enough to satisfy inclusion requirements)" 492:

tighten A#2 up we could say introduce the word "prior" or “previous”. Thereby showing that it is likely to be an already established boxing nation. I really think we should include National titles in there because they are often have more history, validity and authenticity than some of the major sanctioning bodies ‘sub world title’ titles.

4132:

unless they reach certain guidelines attached to their professional able-bodied counterparts. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I am lead to believe that an able bodied athlete who attends the Olympics is notable, regardless of GAN. A Paralympic athlete must win a medal at the Games to be notable. That feels unfair and discriminatory.

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not met for these, then I think the current standard clearly stands (and frankly since pre-2000 only lists medalists, if you cannot find sources to meet GNG for the above, I think it calls into question the notability of medalists). If these do meet GNG, then a more in depth test can be done for non-English nations, more depth, etc.

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GNG but I wanted to keep the criteria as clear and uncluttered as possible so I left it out, along with the more notable EBU title. I just thought 'if they are notable titles then one of the Big 4 will give them a ranking off the back of it.' I hope you can understand my rationale and that you are still able to support the revision.--

4063:. No presumption of notability is present for either, but GNG always trumps and I provided independent sources. I have no idea if they would pass an AfD, but they were not rushed there because of the sources provided. Regarding your presumption for 2004 and beyond, could you find sources for Taylor, Khumalo, and Murphy above? 689:

would however. Rankings can be looked upon with suspicion at times but actually they are a very useful tool for proving notability and my reply above stamped ‘11:09, 2 February 2016’ outlines my thoughts on this. I would be happy to strip out all reference to Fedalatin, Asia-Pacific etc. if we all agreed on Top 15 instead.--

3985:

for good faith that you don't yourself seem prepared to accord to those whose stance you disparage. Since the sourcing given above -- so far -- is dominated by links that wouldn't pass the GNG (by way of casual mentions, press releases, routine sports coverage of the type explicitly debarred from supporting notability by

3759: 3954:

seems to be the Paralympics don't get as much press coverage as the Olympics, which remains true, but that doesn't mean they don't get a huge amount especially over the last 10 years. My main aim here is to allow time for 2016 competitors to have articles developed without them immediately being rushed to AfD. Thanks -

164:) its of little those fighters are notable. However, due to the number of regional titles, the de-centralized nature of the sport, and the difficulty in obtaining and evaluating non-English sources in a worldwide sport the current criteria was causing confusion. This makes it more clear what titles count (e.g., see 4335:

However, I've done my best to make the case that in the modern age any Paralympian will recieve enough press coverage to justify having an article at our humble encyclopaedia. As it stands the points I've raised have not been addressed with anything more advanced than (I'm paraphrasing) “Prove It” or

4170:

are not. Is this discriminatory? Yes, but not from Knowledge - from the media and society in general. You should note that Knowledge is not blatantly discriminatory. For example, before the television area, in the United States baseball was tremendously popular. So much so that athletes from the

4131:

I think those that write Paralympic articles are aware of the IPC databases, but the issue lies in what is seen in the disparity between able and disabled athletes. We can cite these athletes as much as we like, but there are many in specific sports that state that Paralympic athletes must be deleted

3984:

With your first response to this thread containing such sentiments as "none of which actually present any reasons and if anything make me think there is an inherent bias against the Pacific Islands" and "only those that had little to no idea argued the alternative," I'm somewhat surprised at a demand

3897:

Basement12, if you're unwilling to do any work to demonstrate that Paralympians are likely to meet the GNG -- even to tackling a very modest representative list such as RonSigPi presented -- then there's no reasonable response other than to oppose changing the current guideline. Devolving the sports

3808:

I tried to select a cross section of athletes from different games, different continents, different sports, and different success levels. The only thing I kept consistent was that all are from English speaking nations. That way if GNG can be passed it shouldn't be that hard to establish. If GNG is

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been cases in the last couple years where a player who nominally meets NHOCKEY has still failed at AfD because no evidence of GNG-qualifying sources had been found. If you were able to meet the GNG before as a top-ten scorer, then you'd be able to make it even when your career totals are surpassed.

3312:

If it hasn't come up, it's likely to sooner or later. My response is that notability isn't temporary. The premise behind a top-ten all-time scorer getting a notability pass isn't that we think that's important, but that a player who's done that is likely to have a career strong enough to be able to

2832:

Division I football and basketball are heavily covered, so that is the basis of no. 1. The sports in no. 2 receive a good amount of coverage generally and have strong sport specific followings. For No. 3, those are the individual sports that receive good amount of coverage generally and have strong

2480:

If this proposal is defeated, then the current SNG will still be in use. Those who oppose the new criteria range from CrazyAces489 who has proposed multiple times that MMA fighters can become notable without fighting at the highest level (something I see as definitely contradicting the basic premise

2123:

A big difference between MMA and the three sports mentioned is the coverage of "up and coming" athletes. If someone plays one game in the NFL or NBA, then that means they likely had extensive college careers that produced significant coverage. Same can be said for MLB players and their minor league

2006:

I would like to propose that the notability criteria for MMA fighters be changed slightly--from having 3 top tier fights to having 2 top tier wins. This would require that to be notable fighters must have shown the ability to compete at the highest level instead of just being signed to fill up fight

1138:

The proposed guideline sets a high bar to only include clearly notable boxers. It therefore does not follow that anyone else is not notable. This is in contrast to other sports guidelines where the bar is set very low (e.g. 1 appearance in a professional league, 1 top class cricket appearance, etc.).

1123:

Not so obvious or I wouldn't point it out - guidelines indicate presumption of notability with GNG being the fallback. In any case I was grumbling a bit about dropping ranking to 15 but after re-reading the reasoning (getting rid of all the regional possibilities) I can agree to that. Simplicity is

635:

drives meet metric one, and that is not top league. For tennis, you can win a Challenger (men) or top Futures (women) and never compete on the ATP/WTA tour and be presumed notable. And as other have said, lots of team sports do not require top level participation. I think the "highest level" means

389:

Yet both define what top level competition is and neither use number of overall professional fights understanding full well that getting paid to fight is not a key to notability. The argument for notability above revolves around which titles indicate competition at the highest levels. Some regional

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for WBC affiliated organizations). It also takes out the more liberal reading, so that way every nation that awards a title does not confer a presumption of notability. It also requires winning the title, a requirement some thought would be best considering the overall number of titles. I think it

4441:

At least in the USA, rhythmic and trampoline do not receive as much WP:GNG coverage as artistic gymnastics. So while sports specific guidelines would be welcome, they would have to be more restrictive than artistic gymnastics guidelines, and evidence should be provided that such new guidelines are a

3916:

experience (having participated in several hundred AfDs) is that in the great number of cases, sources for a notable subject can be smoked out in five minutes, if not in twenty seconds. If you've had the time to bring over 130 articles to DYK, and you've had the time this week to make more than 200

3478:

Personally, I would like to remove "first team all-star" from the criteria. I do not believe that this award has consistently generated enough non-trivial coverage for the players so awarded that we can make the assumption that being named to an all-star list at a lower level league makes for a GNG

3251:

The wording is good. Two small things that I have seen come up. First, expressly stating if the list of preeminent honors is exclusive or not. I have seen some debate on that. Also, could we define 'top ten career scorer' since that could mean points, goals, or either. Both these issues came up

2286:

I don't think this proposal takes into consideration the sort of fighters that some may be matched with. So you could have 1 fighter in Bellator or Pride who loses 3 times because his opponent was better and didn't win until his 5th fight also seems like the rule would not have any consistency as it

1682:

This has come up a number of times in various sports. One main issue being that the template has changed from when first used (people have often complained that this makes too much of a moving target). While not definitive, from what I have seen in team sports consensus first team All Americans at

1497:

isn't presumed notable? That seems illogical. What about No. 2 being something like "Have fought for the national title of any country, or regional title encompassing that country, which has produced four (or more) individual World title holders of any of the above sanctioning bodies"? One reason

1338:

I like what appears to be a simpler criteria, although I am still confused by the "affiliations". I also would like to see criteria number 4 tightened up. Just because a country had one fighter in some division medal during the past 40+ years does not make all that country's champions and runners-up

1155:

I agree that some editors treat failing SNG as automatically having someone fail GNG as opposed to just not giving the presumption, but that is a much broader issue than can be realistically handled here. That being said, the top of the guideline states "Subjects that do not meet the sport-specific

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proposes and that probably adds another 40-50 or so fighters. The accounting for national titles, we can add another 20 or so. Over 17 weight classes, that puts it at about 2000 notable fighters with a fair amount of movement (new fighters added and old fighters removed). I think that is equal in

680:

would give the national titles of the established boxing nations automatically notability. I agree with you on the EU is a notable title but I am not sure about the Commonwealth anymore. Historically, yes, but now? Not so sure. I would consider Inter-Continental and International titles more notable

495:

Regarding A#3, I agree, rankings can be manipulated, but I think you are maybe overstating the level of manipulation, especially these days. Usually the manipulation is bringing a boxer ranking #15 to #9 or from #4 to #1. Generally the Top 20 is the actual Top 20 but the order across the sanctioning

278:

I’m sure I have more to say on the issue but raising the bar higher for notability for a sport that ALREADY has the highest bar for notability of any major established sport seems a bit bonkers to me. My thoughts would be to simplify the boxing’s notability criteria to a more inclusive level and if

4388:

At the moment I'm almost finished with creating pages of all the artistic gymnast who competed at the world championships. I'm willing to do the same for the other gymnastics disciplines (rythmic, trompoline, acrobatic and aerobic), however the notabiliby guideliss are only about artistic gymnasts.

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silver medallist “Delapietra” and have tried to propose that we include only post 2000 (or 2004 etc.) competitors in the guideline; given a random list of redlink competitors from the last three Games I think I have shown the sources exist and given a current AfD debate I think there is evidence to

4255:

Since there aren't any sources that meet the GNG cited in the Egberink article, the article doesn't exist through any particular merit, but because no one's yet taken it to AfD; it's hardly the example I'd use to prove the merit of paralympic articles. As far as the Dutch Knowledge goes, I'm quite

3953:

but two is also a number, I only mentioned those as examples of other projects treatment of the issue. Perhaps the answer here is to presume notability for Paralympics who competed after say 2004, as demonstrated above sourcing those isn't too difficult. The main argument in the past against change

3838:

The idea of having these guidelines is of course to judge who would be expected to pass GNG but short of actually demonstrating this for every single athlete I'm not sure how you'd like those arguing in favour of a change to show a suitable level of "interest in doing the work to prove their case".

3645:

Actually, the biggest takeaway from those older conversations seems to be that those advocating for a looser standard for Paralympic competitors have no facts to back up their belief that each and every Paralympian could pass the GNG, and little interest in doing the work to prove their case. (You

3297:

One more concern. This has never come up, but having seen people that are more pro deletion I think at some point it will. The "all-time top ten career scorer" is a moving target. Let's say in 2016 a player ends his career 10th in scoring (both points and goals). In the next season, that player

2983:

I have to agree with Ravenswing, each sport should be up to the individual sports to determine. There should not be an overarching college guideline beyond what we have now. Some already do address college sports. The whole purpose of NSPORTS was to get away from generalized guidelines that covered

2841:

winner may not be a first-team FCS All-American), but it should be manageable and take care of 99% of the situation that arise. Figured this was a good stab at it in view of the discussion above and other discussions on college athletics. Comment away and if there is strong opinion, I am free for

2659:

outlining problems with both the current notability guideline as well as the proposal. For example if an identical proposal to the current wording were to be proposed, it would also be opposed based some of the arguments. It's clear there's a wider discord between of the editors involved here as to

2432:

Often times with sports 'notability' is equated to 'good.' One can be bad and notable. In MMA most fighters are not covered on their own, but in the context of their fights (previews, fight summaries, 'who will they fight next', etc.). The coverage focuses on both fighters - winner and loser. I

2316:

How does requiring two wins "vary from fighter to fighter"? Fighters new to an organization usually get paired against each other and are often signed for 3 to 5 fight contracts. Requiring two wins against their peers seems fair, consistent, and objective as well as showing the talent to compete at

2264:

It's not my proposal, but I have no problem with just using Sherdog. I assume Mdtemp was just laying the foundation in case Sherdog stops ranking fighters. The proposed criteria are more restrictive than the existing ones that were already approved here and are currently in use, so the GNG issue is

1931:

If we roll the college athlete notability standards into the sport then I think at some level All-American needs to factor in for football and basketball. It isone of the highest honors (only below major national POY awards IMO) and I think a reasonable cutoff concerning which teams, etc can easily

1748:

I would say cross country is an individual sport and that the only one to have a presumption of notability would be the national champion for each gender. Same could probably be said for sports like fencing and rifle. Only the national champions, of which there are 2-3 per gender, per year, would

1228:

I generally support. However, I worry this is not properly structured. It says "Have fought for a World title for one of the following current or historical major sanctioning bodies, its predecessor or recognized affiliate." What affiliate sanctions a world title fight? Most affiliates would be

730:

Jones would become would become automatically notable under the new proposal having fought for an established national title. Hill would fail and you would have to prove your case going down the GNG route if the article was contested at AfD. The problem I have with the Commonwealth title these days

491:

Regarding A#2 being a "moving target", don't we already have a very similar rationale the current guidelines under criteria #4 "fought in the final of a national amateur championship for an AIBA World Amateur Boxing Championship medal winning country." However, to take on board your point, maybe to

265:

Let’s say that each of the four sanctioning organizations have on average 10 title holders at one time between World, Interim, Intercontinental, International and Continental titles over the 17 weight classes that is a total of 680 notable boxers at any one time. The reality is that it will be much

3944:

It would perhaps be nice if you assumed a little good faith and let the discussion run before jumping in with a big bold oppose. Not immediately having time to tackle an arbitrary list in its entirety is not the same as being "unwilling to do any work". I've made what I think are reasonable points

3614:

Thanks for directing me to a list of at best 3 year old discussions most of which I'd already seen, none of which actually present any reasons and if anything make me think there is an inherent bias against the Pacific Islands. It's almost as if I'm not familar with the topic and didn't help draft

2861:

be gender-neutral, media coverage is most certainly not. Since all NSPORTS criteria should reflect a likelihood that those who meet them will pass the GNG, declaring equality between men's and women's collegiate sport just doesn't work. With the exception of college basketball, media notice just

2685:

Mkdw, thanks for the response. I agree that the arguments of many of those opposed would also rule out the existing standards. My view was that the new proposal was better than the old, not necessarily flawless. I looked at the RFC criteria and am not sure this fits, especially since it says to

2138:

Actually the only sports to not have a "actively participated in a major amateur or professional competition" criteria listed are Boxing, Horse racing, Kickboxing, Mixed martial arts, and Triathlon. Every other sport listed has a criteria that does not require a victory or specific number of times

1887:

Agree with Ravenswing. The guideline should specify notability of college athletes by sport. Football and men's basketball should be easy to defend, the rest are not so clear. Any awards list used to presume notability should be a statically defined list and not based off a template that is used

905:

Hi Mac, no its not included for "automatic notability". I actually thought of you when leaving it out and realized 'that's one !vote I've likely lost' because I know you support the CBC title, but I just don't think these days it is a notable title anymore. I believe that most will qualify through

345:

We should be aiming for a balanced coverage of different sports across the project. I agree that the football, cricket, American football (etc.) guidelines can be too inclusive at times but they have a pragmatic approach which avoids time discussing hundreds of articles at AfD. Boxing is *nothing*

127:

is included since the NABA is directly affiliated with the WBA, but the NABA-USA title is not since it is a lower title of the affiliated organization). This also does not include national titles that are only directly affiliated with the affiliated organization and not the major sanctioning body

122:

2. Has won a regular/full top-level non-world title for an affiliated organization of one of the above listed major sanctioning bodies (e.g. IBF-affiliated (USBA), WBA-affiliated (BUI or PABA), WBC-affiliated (ABCO, BBBofC (and its predecessor the NSC), EBU (and its predecessor the IBU), NABF, or

3333:

I 100% agree that notability isn't temporary. My concern is with a presumption being temporary. In the case above, in 2016 the person has a presumption and in 2017 they do not. I think presumptions should be as fixed as possible. It's one thing to have guidelines change, but another to have a

3158:

All that being said, I think this test case shows that the NCAA wrestling champs can be presumed to meet GNG. I picked sports that I know gain coverage. To a point raised earlier, maybe fencing is not covered very much. But wrestling, track, and the other sports listed are fairly substantially

2906:

and many local papers cover women's athletics at the college level. That is why I was selective in the sports I picked - softball gets a lot of coverage; rifle not so much. Regarding your second point, I think you made a valid point about women's fencing in the earlier discussion. Therefore, I

2049:

1. Have won at least two (2) professional fights for a top-tier MMA organization, such as the UFC (see WP:MMATIER); or 2. Have fought for the highest title of a top-tier MMA organization; or 3. Have been ranked in the world top 10 by Sherdog (other rankings can be added after discussion at

1946:

Absolutely, given the enormous media coverage United States college basketball and football receive. First Team All-Americans are already accorded presumptive notability in NHOCKEY, dealing with a sport with less coverage, and I expect a good case is there for college baseball to be added to the

1845:

I didn't miss it, I just think there is some value in calling out college athletics in general because there is a segment of editors who blanket assume (often with great confidence) that athletes below the pro level aren't notable. Having a separate notability standard helps bring that awareness.

688:

If you are in the Top 15 you are qualified to fight for that organisations world title. I would consider that to get you over the line of being ‘world class’. Winning one of the Asia-Pacific type titles will not automatically get you a Top 15 rankings. An Inter-Continental or International title

684:

I do understand your point about regional-level titles like the Native American, Youth, Oriental, Latino, Fedalatin, Asia-Pacific etc. These are often relatively spurious and they don’t even guarantee you a Top 15 ranking with the sanctioning body that you have been awarded it by. What I think we

3399:

that a person who has achieved X has enough actual coverage to write an article. At some point that presumption must be justified. If we give an ECHLer an article for being 10th all-time in scoring, he is passed, and someone AFD's this player's article on the basis that they are now 11th, then

3204:

The wording of this has been tweaked a dismaying number of times over the years, as editors have demonstrated themselves bound and determined to stretch the original intent to cover NN players. Some recent AfDs have pointed this out, and I think it's time we put this to rest. I'm proposing the

3154:

One thing I noticed is that it was harder to find sources for J.P. O'Connor, Jordan Leen, and Trent Paulson, but I think that is because of the time passed since their titles (6+ years). Was harder to find the national title articles similar to those of Isaiah Martinez and Alex Dieringer (e.g.,

2942:

I agree. Very little momentum - surprising considering the earlier discussion by multiple members. I would hesitate just to add football and men's basketball. First, I don't even think enough has spoken to have consensus on that. Second, one can read the current guideline as already covering

2563:

Reaching the pinnacle of a second-tier organisation makes a mixed martial artist more notable than being a nobody who went 1-2 or even 0-3 in a top-tier organisation considering MMA is an individual sport. For example, this will obviously seem biased since I am using a draft I have created as an

1793:

I see that perspective, but I also see a lot of instances where editors (almost always from outside of North America) who are pretty quick to PROD an article with an edit summary of something like "scholastic player - not notable." If you eliminate NCOLLATH altogether it doesn't give editors any

809:

I left it a month before taking any action because I wanted to hear as many opinions as possible on the subject and I respect the opinion of you guys. I am looking to bring forward my proposal within the weekend. So if any of you have any further input please pipe up. Once again here is the most

630:

I do want to address this notion of "competed at the highest level." People saying that is world level are, in my mind, being narrow sighted and ignoring other guidelines. I will even look at other individual sports. In athletics, finishing top 8 in a major regional games or top 3 in a lesser

521:

To be clear, I like the idea of rankings, but not as an exclusive criteria as you had in option B (i.e., not ok without regional titles also). I would, however, limit it to top 15 since that is who can fight for a world title in the major organizations and I think only the WBC goes beyond 15 in

472:

fighting 50+ years later. Seems like a very far reach. I think we need a relatively fixed standard. For B, the way rankings are manipulated I think you would get a lot of fighters not notable presumed as such and likewise lose a presumption for an even larger number of fighters that should be

3843:

for Portelli), - but in my experience it is fair to assume that suitable sources would exist. I don't have time to tackle that full list right now (and even if I did I'm sure another list would be produced) but certainly for the most recent ones it wasn't at all difficult to stick the name into

2884:

When we drafted the original NTRACK I considered a criterion like this and eventually purposely omitted it, since I wasn't sure that all NCAA champions would meet GNG; although to be perfectly honest, it would be a more valid criterion than some that NTRACK currently has, and I'm not completely

2222:

Sounds quite reasonable, although I've no objection to Dirtlawyer's test. As far as Dirtlawyer's other suggestion goes, I see no merit at all in a restriction requiring editors with limited to no knowledge of MMA to pass judgment on the accuracy and sport-wide acceptance of MMA sources, and am

1773:

Honestly, I've long wondered whether it wouldn't just be a better idea to eliminate NCOLLATH altogether -- which seems pretty much there to service the needs of American Division I basketball and football -- and roll issues of collegiate athletics into the individual sports criteria. All three

1547:

so with the ten champions and ten challengers (the criteria says fought for), that means 20 fighters and not all can be in the top 10. A few other examples outside of my Irish example. A losing challenger for the Dominican Republic title is presumed notable, but a winner of the WBC recognized

703:

I'm feeling you on the rankings idea, at least as far as International/Inter-Continental titles. They do seem to catapult titleholders to bigger things. I would, however, be quite disappointed to see Commonwealth titleholders demoted in terms of notability—they often go onto bigger things after

360:

Yes Peter, other stuff exists. How does one determine where to set the bar without comparison to other bars? Is it reasonable to sweep an argument aside by quoting a shortcut to an essay? As for your comparison to other sports - 1. Kickboxing is such a niche sport it is impossible to compare to

1528:

I understand the point you are making when you say "winning the Irish title makes one presumed notable, but an Irish fighter winning the European Boxing Union isn't presumed notable", that is a very fair point. The new criteria does not explicitly state that winning an EBU title gets automatic

461:

I think both are not great options. For A, point 2 is a moving target. Someone isn't presumed notable now, but if tomorrow his countryman fights for a world title that would change the presumption? Similarly, if someone fights for a title tomorrow from a country that never had someone fight

2715:

is simply an easy way to generate a lot of participation on any number of given topics on Knowledge. A proposal to change a notability guideline is absolutely an appropriate thing to list at RFC and it occurs all the time. In fact, there's an entire corner of RFC just for policy and guideline

499:

Another reason for including the rankings is that it is clearly defined and there are historic records available. It could potentially also do away with the cumbersome wording of what titles from what organisations and from what affiliates qualify or don’t. It could be an easy, pragmatic and

1701:

As mainly a basketball editor I can say that I have yet to come across a modern (NCAA tournament era: 1939-present) basketball All-American who made first, second or third team on a MAJOR All-American team (read as:the teams that contribute to the consensus selections) who did not also meet

2489:. I appreciate this view, although I suspect that SNGs came into being because it was difficult for certain fields to show the GNG was met. However, it seems to me that the new standards for MMA fighters would be more likely to align the GNG and SNG, than using the current standards. 4019:

You are of course permitted to do what you like but dismissing those sources as routine shows you didn't really look at them. You've also chosen to ignore my suggestion about more recent competitors. As I've said all the older discussions seem to oppose with the underlying theory that

2885:

opposed to introducing it now. Most NCAA track champions (and many lower-placed athletes) do get more than sufficient coverage through their collegiate exploits alone, and the rest would likely be at least borderline; but back then, I wasn't sure that it was something we could rely on.

1339:

notable forever. As someone who comments frequently at AFD discussions I think the GNG trumps everything else, but I often see people trying to use NBOX as a way to circumvent GNG and I think that's wrong when you're talking about current fighters. Pre-internet fighters are different.

3155:

could not find a Boston Herald or Boston Globe article on O'Connor's title, but I cannot imagine they did not have an article of a local wrestler winning a national title). If you notice, for example, most sources for Paulson are actually pretty recent on his post-college career.

2241:

until we have a reasonable demonstration that the proposed SNG criteria render similar results to an analysis under the GNG criteria. WP:MMA has had repeated problems with attempting to gain acceptance for their project-level notability standards at AfD. As for the attempt to

935:

That's really good to hear Mac. For the record I would probably support any CBC title winner pre-95 at AfD but I thought it we add all these anomalies then the criteria would become too fractured and messy. I am going to formalize the proposal today and see if its got wings.

3650:

the reasons proffered to maintain the status quo, but that doesn't mean that none were given. In any event, subordinate notability criteria are there to reflect the odds that subjects will meet the GNG, not to spare us the bother of going through multiple deletion debates.

4835:, I digged into the trampolinist. I found out that mainly the trampolinest who competes in the event that is also Olympic (the individual event) are the notable persons. So I changed the proposal above. I picked the results of the individual event at the 2011 championship ( 1828:

speaks of presumptive notability for national champions in obscure sports, but I question that much: can anyone demonstrate that the NCAA women's epee champion routinely meets the GNG, absent any notability she might have as a result of world championships or the Olympics?

552:

As for upping the number of world titles that a nation would have to have under their respective belts to have their national title recognized as an established boxing nation's world title, I am certainly open to discussion to that. The football project have a list of all

473:

presumed notable. I think your best bet is option A without point 2. Its clear and easy to follow, won't change much over time, and have reasonable certainty for notability. I think fighters only fighting for national titles/nationally known should just have to be with

2907:

selected only sports that I have had success with regard to establishing GNG. See the test case below for wrestling 157 lbs. champions. Wrestling, track, etc. are well covered. Again, something like beach volleyball, at this point not so much so I didn't include it.

675:

Hi Mac, I think we broadly are in agreement. I also wouldn’t consider a holder of the BBBoC’s English, Welsh, Celtic, Southern Area, Central Area title etc. as a notable title holder but I would consider the British title holder automatically notable. My new proposal

4473:(picked year randomly). I did a Google search of the bottom ranked nations, and on all the gymnasts of the World championships I searched, I could find secondary sources. As it was a quick search, of course better and more sources will be found with a better search. 313:, a 14:0 pro boxer, who previously fought in the World Series of Boxing and is now signed with the most powerful promoter in professional boxing - that AfD currently has 4:3 'votes' in favour for deletion. Something is wrong here and the balance is out of kilter.-- 2124:

systems/the towns they played AAA and AA ball in. Unless you can show otherwise, I have not seen that kind of up and coming coverage for MMA athletes before they reach the top tier. Therefore, I think you need a few fights to presume that such coverage exists.

2959:

I'd think we'd need more testing, but honestly, I think it should all be devolved to the individual sports. Eliminate NCOLLATH completely, and have those sports Wikiprojects that don't address collegiate play in their own subordinate criteria to do so. I know

1650:. I can't see how any other interpretation makes sense, since thousands of folks have gotten the nod from a single all-American naming entity. Oh, and it's definitely only first team, regardless. Perhaps we should make it more clear on the NCOLLATH guidelines? 1000:; or 2. Have fought for the national title of any country which has produced four (or more) individual World title holders of any of the above sanctioning bodies; or 3. Have been ranked in the world Top 15 of any weight class by the IBF, WBA, WBC, WBO, 3354:

Remember these are just rules of thumb to help with deciding if an articles are likely to meet GNG, so when they no longer meet these rules of thumb they will just have to meet another one or GNG directly. Meeting these isn't a permanent pass for notability.

1048:

which many regular boxing editors have argued are confusing and inconsistent. It has been a very productive, if slow, discussion and I think we have fairly thrashed out many of the issues presented. I have gone through a number of potential Draft proposals

4345:

show that athletes from outside the English speaking world also have relevant sources on which to base an article. This isn't a ploy to ruin the sanctity of the 5.1 million articles we have with an extra few thousand, just a plea not to have to go through

540:

I have no issue with limiting it to the Top 15 instead of the Top 20, as you said, that entitles a boxer to fight for that world title so there is at least some rationale behind that figure and it is not a completely arbitrary figure. I will also add

1383:("EBU-EU") title will be granted notability under this proposal? As some might know, it is one step below the full European ("EBU") title, but almost always leads to a shot at one; likely it could be considered the European equivalent to WBC Silver. 3989:

and unreliable sources), I'm quite comfortable with my position unless I see some serious proof to the contrary. You made a proposal; I stated my opposition to it. There's no statutory time limit that needs to tick off before I'm permitted to do

1296:

is saying (although my guess it we will come out in the debate on entirely different levels). Its not clear what a recognized affiliate is. Basically, a recognized affiliate falls in one of two categories - either a structured entity such as the

828:

I think you should create a new header and submit in the body and not via link. A long time has passed since people looked at this and it would probably get the most accurate feedback just being considered a new proposal and leaving this one for

4812:

I agree with the Rhythmic proposal based on the evidence provided. Can you show evidence that top 5 and 8 marks for the other ones and the medlaists at say the "Mediterranean Games" and "Pacific Rim" meets as case studies. Not super sure about

782:

Its rare that the WBA, WBC, WBO, and IBF rate the same 15 fighters (I think only the WBC goes beyond 15 and ranks 40). Collectively we are talking 40-50 fighters ranked per weight class. Add in the regional title contenders and the like (as

2686:

include the most interested groups. I think that's been done with this being posted (and redirected) for the MMA and sports projects. I'm not sure who else needs to be included. I'll also admit I don't know how to start an RFC discussion.

1357:

I would be reluctant to tamper much with 'Number 4', not because I think it is perfect, I don't, its a fudge, like almost everything on Wiki, but because it has served us pretty well thus far and we rarely get issues with fighters in Amateur

160:

I think this meets the middle ground and the overall consensus. Clearly world title bout fighters are notable. Even with four sanctioning bodies and the WBA awarding commonly 2-3 titles per weight (something they will stop doing soon - see

681:

than the Commonwealth these days. I would consider an EBU title holder automatically notable and I would also consider a EBU-EU title holder notable, but I’d be less wed to the EBU-EU title holder. I’d be interested on your further thoughts.

123:

OPBF), or WBO-affiliated (NABO)). This includes regional titles of major sanctioning bodies (e.g., IBF Latino, WBA Pan African, WBC International, or WBO European). This does not include lower titles or regional organizations (e.g. the

1492:

So now that recognized affiliates are removed, it means world titles give the presumption, regional titles do not, and yet national titles do. So winning the Irish title makes one presumed notable, but an Irish fighter winning the

4407:

was ruled a keep, but he was a medalist - there was an attitude that his medal pushed him over and just competing is not enough. In view of this, I would not assume that the same rules apply for trampoline and rythmic gymnastics.

1437:, as I said above it is probably superfluous anyway. I agree, the clearer and more simple we can keep this the better for the future. It's never going to be perfect but I am sure the new guides will cut out a lot of the nonsense.-- 215:

need to establish notability as opposed to relying on the presumption. Again, I agree what I proposed is restrictive (more so than I would have liked), but I thought it started at capturing the overall consensus. I may be wrong.

2022:

I like this change, but perhaps we could also add the criteria that any world top 10 fighter (say, by Sherdog) would also be considered notable. That would bring this criteria in line with the criteria for boxers and kickboxers.

4054:

Very simple solution for the 2016 games. When the articles are created, make sure they are will sourced and they will not be rushed to AfD. For examples of articles I have created recently that have not been rushed to AfD see

1156:

criteria outlined in this guideline may still be notable if they meet the General Notability Guideline or another subject specific notability guideline." Therefore, I don't think we need a specific call out of that idea here.

1868:

My experience is with college football. In that realm, it is pretty clear that first-team All-Americans designated by one or more of the official selectors recognized by the NCAA secure the type of coverage needed to satisfy

1813:

notable. If you read my comment completely, you can't have missed the "roll issues of collegiate athletics into the individual sports criteria" part. Criteria explicitly mentioning notable college sport, such as exists with

561:

have already undertaken a similar project so it would be easy to use their work as a jumping off point. Instead of my suggestion of 1 champion and your suggestion of 8 champions, would you agree to a compromise of 4 world

1808:

That's rather because outside of a couple of sports in NCAA Division I action (because let's face it, university sport isn't particularly notable in Canada, Mexico or Central America either), worldwide scholastic sport

3646:

can understand, I hope, that we can't just take their anecdotal word for it.) That being said, claiming "none of which actually present any reasons" is an odd way to convince us you reread them at all. You might not

685:

need to be aiming at it is an easily verifiable way of demonstrating that a boxer is in ‘world class’. I think that a criteria whereby a boxer must be ranked in one of the majority bodies Top 15’s is extremely useful.

2380:

A combat sport athlete is presumed to be notable if the person has won 2 or more matches major professional competition, has been ranked in an appropriate "top 10" list, or won a significant honor, as listed on this

3666:

My apologies for eliding the purpose of the link: I provided it for the benefit of anyone wishing to participate in this discussion thread, so that it can be picked up from that point (such as the comment below).

274:

in that league, that one strata of one football league in one country have more automatically notable participants per season than the totality of global boxing. Just let the sheers numbers of that seep in for a

3839:

The difficulty of course in taking on a list like that above is that I don't have access to the complete past editions of national newspapers, especially difficult for the older Games and smaller nations (e.g.

1529:

notability. However, winning an EBU title gives you a Top 15 ranking with the WBA and that gives you automatic notability. The logic might go around the houses to get to its destination but it works, I hope.--

1498:

I like this is it gets away from if the title itself is notable and go more toward how big boxing is in a particular country an in turn how much coverage we can presume. That way, a fighter fighting for the

920:

Absolutely—fully supported on my end. I only wanted clarification on the CBC, so that I know not to create articles in the future where a boxer's only achievement of note was fighting for/winning that title.

1543:

You are right about EBU winner often getting a top 15 rating (not always, but enough to not argue it); however, we are talking about the whole world. For example, the WBC has 10 regional organization - see

4389:

Can the guideliness be expanded with the other gymnastic disciplines. As rythmic gymnastics and trampoline are also Olympic disciplines, I assume that almost the same rules apply for those gymnasts. Thanks

309:, so I looked at the match report for the game and he played ONE minute of that game. ONE minute in ONE game of the FOURTH tier of soccer in England = automatic notability. Compare that the current AfD for 4349:

every single time. I remain confident any such request for deletion can be rebuffed with some effort even, as seems likely, guidelines stay as they are. I've had my say and don't intend to weigh in again.

2717: 2586:

I believe you've made my point as to why the new criteria are better. Under them, Reynolds would not be notable because he hasn't won two top tier fights but Gaethje would be as a top 10 ranked fighter.

4189:

I completely understand this point, but I still believe that the argument you raise is not applied to early Olympic athletes; hundreds of them fail to meet the standards expected of Paralympic athletes.

3059: 2613:

because I think both the votes and arguments lean that way, but my opinion is already on record. Would a neutral party care to close this and modify the existing SNG if that is the perceived consensus?

1075:. I have no objection, as long as something is added to the effect that not satisfying these criteria does not necessarily mean a boxer is not notable, and that many other boxers will also be notable. -- 2359:

I am not opposed to change but I would like to point out that the proposed guidelines are uniquie or different from the 26 other sports listed in 3 ways. The "this page in a nutshell" states that:

2868:

For a second, have you tested the presumptions? Does (for instance) the average NCAA wrestling 157-lb national champion meet the GNG, sufficiently that an article about him would survive an AfD?

2927:: Seems to be little momentum here. As a start, I'd suggest pushing forward with just football and men's basketball, which I hope would have consensus, and later discuss other sports piecemeal.— 2542:

which says "participated in a major international amateur or professional competition at the highest level". BY definition competing in second tier events is not competing at the highest level.

4297:

as one editor tried to make it then it currently stands 3 to 2 in favour of my suggestion as a whole, rather than the less wide ranging proposal I have made to limit it to more recent athletes.

2205:

criteria? Also, I would not support any language that permits a WikiProject to unilaterally change the NSPORTS SNG for its sport, such as the parenthetical language in criterion no. 3 above.

1720:

You are correct about basketball, but since the SNG is for all college sports I think it tends to be conservative. Certainly there is more coverage for college basketball than college tennis.

1124:

better. I am still bothered by what is meant by affiliates - could that be clarified? Also I notice that the Women's titles are no longer part of the whole (would these be the affiliates?).

4175:

are presumed notable - enough newspapers of the day covered the games and players can have this presumption. If a subject, in this case person, is notable, then they will have an article.

3044: 554: 4079:

Some sources were already added above next to the list of names but I've now added some more, all with just a few minutes searching on Google. Not particularly difficult in these cases -

2074:

This means notability will go to those who have shown the ability to successfully compete at the highest level and brings the notability criteria more in line with other fighting sports.

1455:

I need to mention once again - the old guidelines had different organizations for women's boxing. Has that been considered in the new guidelines? Just observing - I have no preferences.

3912:

athlete? South Africa, Hong Kong, Ireland, these countries all have vibrant and large English-language presses; these aren't all Malta or Rhodesia. And while we're talking experience,

4543: 4286: 3030: 4154:- Knowledge reflects that reality. Disabled athletes do not gain the coverage of able-bodied athletes - that is an issue with the media, not Knowledge. This is no different than the 3065: 2037:

I'm willing to go with Papaursa's suggestion. It makes even more sense when you look at his comment at my proposal for the notability of MMA orgs. Here is the proposal as I now see it.

2459:. I would also disagree with your statement that winning doesn't make someone more notable than losing--winners will almost always receive more coverage, especially in the long run. 1846:

That said, I'm not hard over against rolling the standards into the sports. I was just adding to the discussion and there wasn't a need to be salty about it, as my comment was not.

3530:

My apologies for joining the conversation a little late, but while we are on this subject, would it be a good idea to include some type of criteria for career goaltending records?

4880: 2338:

A toughening up of the MMA notability criteria would bring them more in line with other martial arts and would also seem to help bring this notability criteria more in line with

802:

My proposal is to set a bar where guys are "automatically" notable. There will be plenty of other boxers, or those in boxing, that will be notable but surely they would pass via

2366:

Right now of the 26 sports listed only 5 (Boxing, Horse racing, Kickboxing, Mixed martial arts, and Triathlon) require that you participate more than once at the highest level.

2361:

An athlete is presumed to be notable if the person has actively participated in a major amateur or professional competition or won a significant honor, as listed on this page...

549:

I doubt there is anyone in their Top 15 that isn't in at least one of the major alphabet titles Top 15 rankings already. But I'm happy to add them even as a mopping up exercise.

3126: 2538:

As I said earlier, claiming notability for success at a second tier organization has never been accepted for MMA fighters and seems directly at odds with the basic criteria at

2246:

any future change that the WP:MMA editors may come up with in the future, we would not accept any such future changes without review by any other sports WikiProjects, either.

4982: 2287:

would vary from fighter to fighter. I think the current rules are better because it makes it clear if a major organisation keeps someone for 3 fights, then they are notable.

557:

that automatically make players in those leagues notable, I don't see why we couldn't do the same sort of list ranking Nations by their number of world title holders. I know

2902:

Regarding your first point, you are correct the media is not gender neutral. However, some women's sports are well covered in the media. Women's basketball is featured on

2779:

They are a first team NCAA Division I All-American in baseball, FCS football, ice hockey (east or west), lacrosse, soccer, or softball by an NCAA recognized selecting body.

1687:

is presumed notable due to being an individual national champion in Division I wrestling, but someone finishing 8th and earning All-American honors would not meet the SNG.

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title winner isn't. I just don't think this makes sense or is constant with he guidelines of other sports. It's like saying those that have played a game in the top tier

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Of the 26 sports listed only 6 (Athletics, Boxing, Cycling, Horse racing, Kickboxing, Sumo). Maybe one solution would be to create a sub group of "Combat Sports" within

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This is very exclusive and underepresents MMA when comparing to other sports such as the NFL, NBA or MLB where people are assumed notable if they played in just 1 game!

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and that a presumption of notability is entirely appropriate for such players. As noted by Rikster, such a presumption may not be warranted in other college sports.

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Well, having the fewest articles out of that set makes sense given MMA is one of the youngest sports on the list, in most cases by a matter of decades or centuries.

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Hi Ron, yeah I will start a new discussion and paste the most recent revision there. I will also give a heads up to everyone who has engaged in this discussion. --

3253: 4316:” (Fastest, Highest, Strongest (citius doesn't translate well in this contect but perhaps someone with a bettre knowledge of Latin will hook me up)) and despite 2782:

They are an NCAA Division I individual national champion in cross country, golf, swimming and diving, track and field (indoor and outdoor), tennis, or wrestling.

5030: 4317: 3590: 3053: 1909:, there seemed to a rough consensus that All-Americans were not presumed to be notable across all sports. However, the topic grew stale and no change was made.— 1906: 1053:

and I think we have come to a wording that most are agreeable with. Therefore I am proposing that the below Notability Criteria replaces the current version of

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not any SNG. There are boxers who were found notable because they became notable for being little more than a warm punching bag, but that was through GNG not

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While I don't personally agree with the outcome, articles about athletes that compete in world championships are at times not found notable. One example is

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For the record, I've commented on the AfD in question. It should easily pass GNG, esp. on the coverage of him missing the Olympics due to the Arab Spring.

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take on a number of those sports, but I'm no expert on college baseball (for instance), and I wouldn't consider my POV on its notability all that expert.

5079: 4907: 4773: 4404: 4163: 1013: 4616: 3443:- can some text be added to confirm which leagues are 'lower minor', 'major junior' etc, or at least add a link to an article already setting that out? 3088: 3021: 4233:

The Dutch Knowledge is known for there much stricter policies for keeping WP pages. However almost all 2012 Dutch paralympic athletes have a page, see

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Just because it needs said, the guidelines are not a death sentence for notability (though many editors treat it as such). If someone does not meet

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honestly, someone needs to find the sources that demonstrates notability (which is not temporary) as the presumption (which is) is no longer valid.

266:

less more like 4-500 when you take into consideration vacant titles and boxers who hold more than one title at the time. By comparison look at the

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For the Acrobatic gymnasts, all the finalists (top-8) of the 2014 championships have a page. Most of them have a page with secondary sources. See:

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Knowledge, however, and I don't see the relevance of your statement. We're governed by our own standards, our own policies and our own consensus.

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That, I think, covered your hypothetical of a league only a season or two old: we'd demand evidence that those players pass the GNG, all the same.

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I am fine with this, I don't really think it makes much of a difference either way. Except for a few rareish situations they say the same thing. -

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Beyond that, we have to remember that the whole premise of NSPORTS' criteria is as guidance as to whether a subject will be able to meet the GNG.

3146: 1405:. Obviously if they went on to fight for the EBU title or if one of the Big Four gave them a ranking out of it then they would cross the line. -- 211:

is met. If a well covered British fighter never wins (or fights for if my proposal is broadened) the British BBBofC title, then they just means

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any competition with considerable international WP:GNG coverage between at least eight notable athletes (examples of such competitions include:

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is motivated to include top-8 at the NCAA in the future, then they can do so and this won't prevent that). Also, this isn't perfect (e.g., the

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I think that's better but there will still be a lot of boxers who are notable and worthy of inclusion that don't meet any of those criteria. --

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Mixed Martial Arts already has the lowest total number of articles at 3625, the next lowest would be Figure skating with 4460 total articles.

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the Division I level meet the mark. For individual sports, national champions I think are seen as being equivalent. Therefore, someone like

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I'm concerned we are getting off topic from the original case I was attempting to make so I've attempted to write a summary of my thoughts

3395:, not just for one season. However, as far as presumption being a moving target, I don't have any concern with that. We are, after all, 3027: 4849: 3917:

edits, then it's not unreasonable to ask that you put in a half-hour or so to convince us to change Knowledge's notability guidelines.

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guideline that moves. To give a more clear example, under the guideline, would Steve Climo be given a presumption of meeting SNG (see

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and that resulted in a no consensus. In other words, I am fine with the language, but would like to see clarity on those two issues.

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Showing an ability to compete at the highest level seems like a reasonable standard for notability and in keeping with the spirit of

4689: 4664: 3179: 3093:(note: already has page, but that focuses on MMA career so wanted to find sources that at least partially focused on his wrestling). 1666:

Thanks for the input, Onel. That makes sense to me too - and I agree that the NCOLLATH guidelines are very unclear on this point. --

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I also think 'Holds, or has previously held, a belt in a second-tier organisation.' would be make a mixed martial artist notable.

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to implement these changes. Considering the controversy around MMA, I think an RFC should have been held for a wider discussion.

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Don't mess with number 4 - as a guideline it works pretty good - yes remove the word affiliate and that would solve the problem.

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This is a better standard than the previous. I do not see any disagreement between this one an the GNG. I think is good to go.

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before, than someone all the way back to the 1960s all of a sudden becomes presumed notable? Under that logic Oswald Sampson

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requirements of each of the three proposed criteria above, so we may compare the coverage for each of the examples under the

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female players not - its about general notability. The NHL has a tremendous amount of coverage, the NWHL does not. In the

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I don't know if it counts for anything, but the majority of editors involved with MMA topics who voted endorsed this change.

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for the Aerobic gymnasts I can't find good sources for the athletes who did not win a medal. I changed the proposal above.

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would not. We are not addressing the merits of the OPBF title or any of the other regional titles (WBO Intercontinental,

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1. Have fought for a World title for one of the following current or historical major sanctioning bodies or predecessor :

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Totally agree. But I'm not sure that a consensus first-team All-American in, say, cross-country, would meet GNG anyway.

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title is a full national title and affiliated to both the EBU and the WBA which I would consider automatically notable.

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has stated above, why hold the bar for notability of boxers higher than any other comparable major international sport?

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On a side note: to help dispel long-held misconceptions about this guidance page, can we avoid using the term "pass"?

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uses? Should we make a new criterion saying "Has won a full regional title for any structured affiliate (for example

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Note 2: this guideline, when applicable, broaden and do not narrow sports specific guidelines (e.g., does not narrow

4599: 3757: 1646:- My understanding is that it only refers to consensus all-Americans (not unanimous, simple consensus), as found at 1510:, etc.), but instead in coverage of boxing in the respective nations much like you propose for the national titles. 2802:

Note 1: sports are gender neutral, so a men's or women's first-team All-American in soccer would meet criterion 2.

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to look at the discussion. While I do not necessarily personally agree with some of the oppose comments as they're

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For those that read this far, thank you, I hope I've at least made you think even if I've not changed your mind -

301:, out of interest I then clicked on the link to the league and picked a team at random and found an article about 5010: 5004: 4949: 4781: 3793: 3137: 1565: 1306: 993: 2370:

Mixed Martial Arts would be the only sport that required you to win at the highest level, not just participate.

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As you may have seen above, there has been a three month long discussion with regards streamlining the current

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I think you missed that he was Top-10 in the ECHL's first season, thus he was Top-10 all-time at that point. -

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I am good with four (half of the original weight classes) and good with your proposal (i.e., I will endorse).

4989: 4894: 3016:, here is a test case of last 10 157 lbs. NCAA wrestling champions (stopped after five references for each): 716:, based on their having fought for Nick Blackwell's British middleweight title. Will that still be OK to do? 5060: 4818: 4447: 3950: 3763: 3551: 2794: 2635: 1534: 1474: 1442: 1410: 1363: 1274: 1256: 1212: 1062: 941: 911: 882: 848: 819: 744: 736: 694: 512: 450: 445:

but it is a step in the right direction. What or who have you got in mind and how could these be included?--

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Yet 'getting paid to play soccer is a key to notability', even if it was just once, and for a single minute.

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anytime soon. The discrimination argument won't ever fly in this arena and honestly it probably shouldn't.

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title from Australia would have a presumption of coverage while a fighter fighting for the same title from

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the notability requirements should be for MMA. I do not believe there is a consensus here as outlined by

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MMA is a minor sport compared to the ones you mention, so applying the same criteria doesn't make sense.

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and does still need to be proven. I've accepted the fact that we probably wont ever have an article on

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It's been a month since anyone commented on this proposal. Personally, I think this can be closed as

2572:. It is clear which athlete is of greater notability outside of some arbitrary notability guidelines. 2265:

already addressed. Anyone meeting the GNG is notable and doesn't need any SNG. Am I wrong about that?

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To indicate criteria which would indicate that notability is highly likely. Pretty obvious really. --

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British title and I wouldn't necessarily consider that you obtain notability by winning that and the

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it's not a must to have won a medal to have a WP page for a paralympic athlete. See for instance

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in FBS football or basketball by an NCAA recognized selecting body (honorable mention or higher).

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regional games makes you notable. So there you don't even need to win. In Motorsports, I think

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So notability for having fought for a Commonwealth title will definitely not be included, then?

411:. I would really welcome some feedback on it in it's talk page before I officially propose it.-- 2223:

entirely comfortable with the decision resting with those actually knowledgeable in the sport.

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to the community as a whole which I now copy to this page. I note that if this were merely a

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Beyond that, c'mon. Look at that list. You don't think you're able to find sources for an

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I also found a number of links from examiner.com, but wikipedia won't let me include those.

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In view of the comments above, I have proposed new guidelines below. Fell free to comment.

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This will, hopefully -- although I've said this before -- end further misinterpretations.

2485:) to Dirtlawyer1 who wants proof that the new criteria would be essentially equivalent to 2290: 1878: 4150:

This pops up every time the pro-Paralympic editors want to make a change. The world is

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I've not given it any consideration to be honest. Maybe it could be considered unisex?--

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content with leaving their notability standards to their own discretion. This is the

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Mac, feel free to amend the proposal to ensure it is grammatically more acceptable. --

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English title would count as the BBBofC is directly affiliated with the WBC, but the

3992:

That being said, the best way to avoid articles from being taken to AfD is to write

1379:– Can I get confirmation that any boxer who has fought at least once for a European 237:. That will just result in muddying already muddy waters. I agree with much of what 136:

title would not as the Boxing Union of Ireland is only directly affiliated with the

4890: 4591: 4428: 4216: 3514: 3444: 3413: 3356: 3337:)? In the first season of the ECHL he was in the top ten in points and goals (see 3235: 2985: 2928: 2773: 2451:

I would argue that if someone is bad, then notability needs to be achieved through

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winning it. Also, will the new criteria still grant notability for boxers who have

614: 3097: 1818:, is considerably more accurate and gives editors guidance for those sports where 5051:

One article on several athletes' performances at one competition is bordering on

3783: 1177:, but with some minor copyediting if that block of text is to be added verbatim: 4622: 4325: 4312:” (Faster, Higher, Stronger) the public as a whole will always care more about “ 4290: 4167: 2504: 2388: 2318: 2266: 2192: 2188: 2169: 2140: 2110: 2057: 2008: 1993: 1456: 1420: 1340: 1293: 1140: 1125: 1108: 1094: 1076: 864: 765: 442: 426: 391: 366: 347: 332: 238: 186: 46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

4996: 4118: 1619:, specifically the part that defines a notable award as one which is listed at 1615:

Hello! I have a question about the notability criteria for college athletes at

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for primarily articles and not necessarily to demonstrate athlete notability.—

1874: 1684: 3879:: See related to this discussion this AfD of a paralympic volleyball player: 3391:

Actually, Climo wouldn't pass this criterion anyway, as it is top-ten scorer

863:

Necessary - I too was confused to just which proposal you were referring too.

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they need to have participated, only that they have once meet the criteria.

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are presumed notable as are those that have played a game in the third tier

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NCOLLATH criteria are seriously flawed (#3 just echoes the GNG, for one).

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there are only a few who did not compete at the World Championships. For

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cards. Fighting for a top tier championship would still show notability.

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That indicates a problem with Football as much as anything else (classic

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doesn't clear beyond the routine sports coverage explicitly debarred by

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I've made a proposal for rowing-specific notability guidelines over at

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with it's own "this section in a nutshell" that reads something like:

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Can you provide four or five examples of MMA fighters who satisfy the

3711:

being met by finding appropriate sources for the following athletes?

1298: 1005: 558: 362: 4839:), and did a quick search on a random few bottom clasified athletes. 708:

e.g. a British title, but not won it? Yesterday I made articles for

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Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(sports)/Archive_19#College_All-Americans

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white players are given a presumption while black players of the

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Alright, two thoughts. The first thing is that while sports may

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Knowledge:Requests for comment/Wikipedia policies and guidelines

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I will look a bit later at the aerobic and acrobatic gymnasts.

373:. I would hardly consider that a higher bar than for boxing. -- 4155: 1251:

if it is considered ambiguous as it is probably superfluous.--

1020:

competitions or fought in the final of an AIBA affiliated and

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2012 - Kyle Dake - clearly meets GNG and already has article.

407:

Today I quickly drafted a new notability criteria for boxing

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affiliated country in a continental (or higher) tournament.

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Great database with information regarding to all athletes:

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and to avoid taking articles to mainspace unless they are.

3754:- United States, cross-country skiing, 1994 Winter, silver 3113:

2009 - Jordan Burroughs - Olympic gold medalist, meets GNG.

3182:; would appreciate some feedback before adding. Cheers, -- 4729:

are deemed notable if they meet any of the criteria below

4708:

are deemed notable if they meet any of the criteria below

4681:

are deemed notable if they meet any of the criteria below

4656:

are deemed notable if they meet any of the criteria below

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for a list of the most recent discussions on this topic.

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Knowledge talk:Notability (sports)/Archive 20#Paralympics

1648:

College Football All-America Team#Consensus All-Americans

270:

alone, who all gain automatic notability for playing one

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won a senior medal at an elite international competition

4721:

won a senior medal at an elite international competition

4700:

won a senior medal at an elite international competition

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won a senior medal at an elite international competition

3742:- Great Britain, ice sledge racing, 1984 Winter, bronze 3274:

I'm pretty comfortable with a top-ten career scorer in

109:

Knowledge talk:Notability (sports)#Boxing clarification

5017:. I'm fine removing these championships from the list. 1576:. However, those that have played in the second tier 279:

there are queries over notability after that then let

168:

takes care of most of the reasonable concerns raised.

1401:

my take is that it wouldn't consider that it conveys

3748:- Hong Kong, wheelchair fencing, 1988 Summer, bronze 4983:

Artistic gymnastics at the 2013 Mediterranean Games

2046:Mixed martial artists are presumed notable if they 4694:competed after 1997 in the individual event at an 3459:Knowledge:WikiProject Ice Hockey/League assessment 1932:be drafted if we only need to focus on one sport. 4426:Careful the deletion monkeys don't see that one. 4401:Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Dirngulbai Misech 4235:nl:Nederland op de Paralympische Zomerspelen 2012 3766:- Barbados, swimming, 2008 Summer, 13th and 23rd 2808:if WP:NHOCKEY still addresses college players). 522:rankings. Also, I would think about adding the 262:'s proposal seems to be suggesting the opposite. 5013:, but I see many red links at for instance the 3796:- New Zealand, alpine skiing, 2014 Winter, 4th 3254:Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Luc Beausoleil 2707:Sorry, I didn't see this reply since I wasn't 5031:2014 Acrobatic Gymnastics World Championships 8: 4471:2009 World Rhythmic Gymnastics Championships 4469:I did a quick search on the gymnasts at the 3730:- Canada, alpine skiing, 1976 Winter, bronze 3457:That is noted in the full page for NHOCKEY: 4347:Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Junko Fujii 3205:following changes to the criteria, to read: 468:are presumed notable due to the success of 4405:Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Andy Bisek 500:definitive way to stop a lot of arguments. 119:A boxer is presumed notable if he or she: 5015:2014 Pacific Rim Gymnastics Championships 3780:- South Africa, rowing, 2012 Summer, 8th 3736:- Ireland, athletics, 1976 Summer, silver 250:English title is a regional title to the 1189:"; and "World" should be in lower case. 5072: 4158:male players gaining a presumption and 3724:- Rhodesia, swimming, 1968 Summer, gold 477:because I just don't see a better way. 4753:*An elite international competition is 4342:Archery at the 1960 Summer Paralympics 4326:someone less caught up in legal issues 1820:collegiate action is genuinely notable 1621:Template:College football award navbox 964:Revision of Boxing Notability Criteria 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 4985:only 3 men and 3 women. For instance 4717:World Sports Acrobatics Championships 3718:- Malta, snooker, 1960 Summer, bronze 1181:needs italicising; curly apostrophe " 973:Boxers are presumed notable if they; 7: 1093:Then why have the guidelines at all. 4314:Celerrimus , Altissima, Fortissimus 3037:2015 - Isaiah Martinez - (see 2016) 1185:" needs to be straight apostrophe " 1024:medal winning country (for Men see 107:For criterion number 2, in view of 2653:User talk:Mkdw#Discussion question 1988:I moved this discussion here from 361:boxing, you might as well compare 24: 18:Knowledge talk:Notability (sports) 4318:the concerns from the able bodied 3554:now is a pertinent time to raise 3493:In a non-hockey sense, of course. 3180:Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Rowing 2765:College athletes are notable if: 1625:College Football All-America Team 1305:or a inherent entity such as the 1057:. I hope it gets your support. -- 1022:World Amateur Boxing Championship 207:, then all one has to do is show 3278:goals or points getting a pass. 1265:Update, I have removed the term 739:) 11:14, 8 February 2016 (UTC)-- 140:and not the WBC or WBA itself). 29: 4403:. In a more indirect example, 1984:MMA fighter notability proposal 984:(WBA) (and its predecessor the 978:International Boxing Federation 4696:Trampoline World Championships 1: 4442:good proxy for GNG coverage. 4306:motto of the Olympic movement 3020:2016 - Isaiah Martinez - see 2624:01:00, 28 February 2016 (UTC) 2308:19:37, 31 December 2015 (UTC) 2275:18:41, 29 December 2015 (UTC) 2256:09:36, 29 December 2015 (UTC) 2234:06:51, 29 December 2015 (UTC) 2215:14:04, 29 December 2015 (UTC) 2178:22:06, 28 December 2015 (UTC) 2149:18:36, 30 December 2015 (UTC) 2134:00:21, 29 December 2015 (UTC) 2119:22:06, 28 December 2015 (UTC) 2101:05:58, 27 December 2015 (UTC) 2084:04:34, 19 December 2015 (UTC) 2066:20:02, 18 December 2015 (UTC) 2033:15:28, 12 December 2015 (UTC) 2002:22:06, 28 December 2015 (UTC) 1032:), or have represented their 1012:; or 4. Have competed in 305:. He has played ONE game for 268:FOURTH tier of English soccer 4300:I'm well aware Knowledge is 3058:2013 - Derek St. John - see 3040:2014 - Alex Dieringer - see 2597:10:16, 28 January 2016 (UTC) 2582:22:12, 26 January 2016 (UTC) 2552:02:53, 25 January 2016 (UTC) 2530:05:46, 24 January 2016 (UTC) 2513:16:07, 20 January 2016 (UTC) 2017:16:52, 9 December 2015 (UTC) 1582:Football League Championship 1030:Medal table (2001 - present) 1026:Medal table (1974 - present) 798:21:18, 5 February 2016 (UTC) 774:18:12, 5 February 2016 (UTC) 749:11:14, 8 February 2016 (UTC) 726:15:41, 5 February 2016 (UTC) 699:10:49, 5 February 2016 (UTC) 667:14:26, 4 February 2016 (UTC) 646:00:07, 3 February 2016 (UTC) 621:12:15, 2 February 2016 (UTC) 582:23:27, 3 February 2016 (UTC) 536:00:07, 3 February 2016 (UTC) 517:11:09, 2 February 2016 (UTC) 487:22:47, 1 February 2016 (UTC) 455:11:11, 2 February 2016 (UTC) 435:17:35, 1 February 2016 (UTC) 421:15:20, 1 February 2016 (UTC) 400:15:12, 1 February 2016 (UTC) 383:14:45, 1 February 2016 (UTC) 356:13:47, 1 February 2016 (UTC) 341:13:27, 1 February 2016 (UTC) 323:13:09, 1 February 2016 (UTC) 293:10:46, 1 February 2016 (UTC) 226:22:59, 1 February 2016 (UTC) 195:09:40, 1 February 2016 (UTC) 178:04:22, 1 February 2016 (UTC) 152:04:14, 1 February 2016 (UTC) 4281:A less than arbitrary break 3947:One is the loneliest number 3133:2007 - Trent Paulson - see 3096:2010 - J.P. O'Connor - see 3078:2011 - Bubba Jenkins - see 2499:01:24, 9 January 2016 (UTC) 2469:01:24, 9 January 2016 (UTC) 2443:22:45, 5 January 2016 (UTC) 2423:22:39, 5 January 2016 (UTC) 2409:17:18, 5 January 2016 (UTC) 2397:17:01, 5 January 2016 (UTC) 2385:sports that have wikigroups 2352:20:07, 4 January 2016 (UTC) 2327:13:48, 3 January 2016 (UTC) 507:now to reflect the above.-- 5097: 4823:04:53, 30 April 2016 (UTC) 4803:17:42, 28 April 2016 (UTC) 4452:05:49, 17 April 2016 (UTC) 4219:, but many more examples. 3523:16:25, 19 April 2016 (UTC) 3504:15:37, 16 April 2016 (UTC) 3487:15:17, 16 April 2016 (UTC) 3469:15:17, 16 April 2016 (UTC) 3453:15:00, 16 April 2016 (UTC) 3422:17:49, 19 April 2016 (UTC) 3408:16:30, 19 April 2016 (UTC) 3365:16:27, 19 April 2016 (UTC) 3350:15:01, 17 April 2016 (UTC) 3329:14:55, 16 April 2016 (UTC) 3308:11:10, 16 April 2016 (UTC) 3289:17:17, 15 April 2016 (UTC) 3266:16:58, 15 April 2016 (UTC) 3244:16:29, 15 April 2016 (UTC) 3226:16:12, 15 April 2016 (UTC) 3192:05:07, 26 April 2016 (UTC) 2994:11:04, 21 April 2016 (UTC) 2975:16:16, 15 April 2016 (UTC) 2953:20:36, 14 April 2016 (UTC) 2937:18:57, 14 April 2016 (UTC) 2747:15:25, 11 April 2016 (UTC) 2729:01:20, 21 April 2016 (UTC) 2696:02:15, 11 April 2016 (UTC) 2640:19:58, 17 March 2016 (UTC) 1958:18:08, 24 March 2016 (UTC) 1942:11:57, 24 March 2016 (UTC) 1919:06:51, 24 March 2016 (UTC) 1898:06:45, 24 March 2016 (UTC) 1883:23:36, 23 March 2016 (UTC) 1856:11:53, 24 March 2016 (UTC) 1840:03:20, 24 March 2016 (UTC) 1804:22:02, 23 March 2016 (UTC) 1785:21:18, 23 March 2016 (UTC) 1759:02:03, 24 March 2016 (UTC) 1744:21:05, 23 March 2016 (UTC) 1730:20:40, 23 March 2016 (UTC) 1716:20:31, 23 March 2016 (UTC) 1697:19:30, 23 March 2016 (UTC) 1676:14:31, 14 March 2016 (UTC) 1662:00:18, 14 March 2016 (UTC) 1637:00:02, 14 March 2016 (UTC) 1598:19:24, 23 March 2016 (UTC) 1539:09:36, 23 March 2016 (UTC) 1520:21:25, 22 March 2016 (UTC) 1479:11:15, 22 March 2016 (UTC) 1465:11:24, 21 March 2016 (UTC) 1447:11:22, 21 March 2016 (UTC) 1429:11:17, 21 March 2016 (UTC) 1415:11:10, 21 March 2016 (UTC) 1393:17:24, 19 March 2016 (UTC) 1368:11:12, 21 March 2016 (UTC) 1349:07:30, 18 March 2016 (UTC) 1331:04:15, 18 March 2016 (UTC) 1279:11:20, 21 March 2016 (UTC) 1261:11:04, 21 March 2016 (UTC) 1239:04:02, 18 March 2016 (UTC) 1217:11:16, 22 March 2016 (UTC) 1199:20:15, 17 March 2016 (UTC) 1166:03:51, 18 March 2016 (UTC) 1149:18:52, 17 March 2016 (UTC) 1134:18:45, 17 March 2016 (UTC) 1117:18:21, 17 March 2016 (UTC) 1103:18:16, 17 March 2016 (UTC) 1085:18:05, 17 March 2016 (UTC) 1067:12:17, 16 March 2016 (UTC) 946:11:56, 16 March 2016 (UTC) 931:17:53, 15 March 2016 (UTC) 916:10:33, 15 March 2016 (UTC) 569:to reflect these changes. 565:I have made a third draft 5011:Pacific Rim Championships 4977:For the medalists at the 4782:Pacific Rim Championships 4435:09:00, 9 April 2016 (UTC) 4418:23:43, 7 April 2016 (UTC) 4394:17:38, 7 April 2016 (UTC) 3169:15:53, 9 April 2016 (UTC) 3116:2008 - Jordan Leen - see 2917:15:59, 9 April 2016 (UTC) 2897:12:03, 9 April 2016 (UTC) 2879:09:20, 9 April 2016 (UTC) 2852:03:13, 9 April 2016 (UTC) 2820:03:13, 9 April 2016 (UTC) 2753:Proposed replacement for 2677:23:06, 8 April 2016 (UTC) 1979:03:14, 9 April 2016 (UTC) 1623:. That template includes 1247:Would be happy to remove 994:World Boxing Organization 901:17:10, 9 March 2016 (UTC) 887:14:40, 9 March 2016 (UTC) 873:11:31, 9 March 2016 (UTC) 853:11:23, 9 March 2016 (UTC) 839:05:13, 9 March 2016 (UTC) 824:10:22, 8 March 2016 (UTC) 111:I propose the following: 5065:10:05, 12 May 2016 (UTC) 5047:16:26, 11 May 2016 (UTC) 5038:16:26, 11 May 2016 (UTC) 5025:16:05, 11 May 2016 (UTC) 3313:meet the GNG, and there 2244:incorporate by reference 2183:Let's put it to the test 1433:I have removed the term 982:World Boxing Association 505:second draft of Option A 4642:Proposal for gymnastics 4379:22:14, 5 May 2016 (UTC) 4310:Citius, Altius, Fortius 4271:12:41, 6 May 2016 (UTC) 4242:19:02, 5 May 2016 (UTC) 4224:18:55, 5 May 2016 (UTC) 4200:21:25, 5 May 2016 (UTC) 4185:18:50, 5 May 2016 (UTC) 4142:17:42, 5 May 2016 (UTC) 4126:14:26, 5 May 2016 (UTC) 4105:16:05, 5 May 2016 (UTC) 4073:15:11, 5 May 2016 (UTC) 4046:15:55, 5 May 2016 (UTC) 4007:15:02, 5 May 2016 (UTC) 3980:10:31, 5 May 2016 (UTC) 3951:Three Is a Magic Number 3928:09:50, 5 May 2016 (UTC) 3888:08:38, 5 May 2016 (UTC) 3870:09:07, 5 May 2016 (UTC) 3819:04:10, 5 May 2016 (UTC) 3677:05:57, 5 May 2016 (UTC) 3662:02:36, 5 May 2016 (UTC) 3641:00:53, 5 May 2016 (UTC) 3603:00:24, 5 May 2016 (UTC) 3584:00:14, 5 May 2016 (UTC) 3540:13:50, 1 May 2016 (UTC) 2795:NABC Player of the Year 2383:On a side note, of the 1435:or recognized affiliate 1267:or recognized affiliate 1249:or recognized affiliate 256:Boxing Union of Ireland 134:Boxing Union of Ireland 4774:European Championships 4715:Finished top-8 at the 3994:well-sourced articles, 3213: 1586:American Hockey League 1562:National Hockey League 1558:English Premier League 5009:I didn't look at the 4328:isn't likely to beat 3707:. Can you establish 3552:upcoming extravaganza 3209: 2564:example but, compare 1749:get the presumption. 1554:Major League Baseball 1495:European Boxing Union 877:Option 1, Draft 4. -- 545:to the list but like 297:Because I linked the 138:European Boxing Union 42:of past discussions. 4574:Rafaela Pedral Costa 2570:Draft:Justin Gaethje 1578:International League 1550:African Boxing Union 1403:automatic notability 1311:IBF Intercontinental 990:World Boxing Council 4979:Mediterranean Games 4887:Jessica Alysse Shaw 4778:Mediterranean Games 4669:World Championships 4633:So I would propose: 4604:32nd South African 4550:Alexandra Martincek 3234:- this re-wording. 3174:Proposed WP:NROWING 2839:Walter Payton Award 2317:the highest level. 2295:God Save the Queen! 1570:Football League One 329:WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS 299:Football League Two 4918:Katarína Prokešová 4914:Katarina Prokesova 4873:de:Lara Hüninghake 4770:Commonwealth Games 4758:Pan American Games 4706:Acrobatic gymnasts 4289:in the form of an 4057:Tom Green (runner) 3689:- lets start here 3550:I think given the 3006:Per suggestion of 2984:multiple sports. - 2787:Harlon Hill Trophy 2413:What was point C? 1903:Earlier discussion 1292:I agree with what 128:itself (e.g., the 4613:Julene van Rooyen 4606:Sibongile Mjekula 4560:Yeraldine Alarcon 4522:Selina Poestinger 4497:22nd: Australian 4018: 3830: 3494: 2771:Division I (NCAA) 1307:WBO International 1040:Boxing Discussion 283:sort it out. -- 100: 99: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 5088: 5081: 5077: 4869:Lara Hueninghake 4834: 4727:Aerobic gymnasts 4688:competed at the 4663:competed at the 4654:Rhytmic gymnasts 4588:Josefine Hustoft 4536:Mikaela Lindholm 4488:16th: Slovenian 4431: 4369: 4366: 4363: 4360: 4357: 4267: 4095: 4092: 4089: 4086: 4083: 4036: 4033: 4030: 4027: 4024: 4012: 4003: 3970: 3967: 3964: 3961: 3958: 3943: 3924: 3908:athlete? For a 3860: 3857: 3854: 3851: 3848: 3837: 3824: 3705: 3702: 3699: 3696: 3693: 3658: 3631: 3628: 3625: 3622: 3619: 3613: 3574: 3571: 3568: 3565: 3562: 3492: 3325: 3285: 3222: 3013: 2971: 2875: 2797:in any division. 2791:Gagliardi Trophy 2724: 2706: 2672: 2562: 2306: 2303: 2296: 2293: 2230: 2196: 1954: 1836: 1781: 1658: 1655: 1504:Papua New Guinea 1028:, for Women see 617: 555:Football leagues 465:and Oxley Agard 81: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 5096: 5095: 5091: 5090: 5089: 5087: 5086: 5085: 5084: 5078: 5074: 5044:Sander.v.Ginkel 5035:Sander.v.Ginkel 5022:Sander.v.Ginkel 4987:Christian Bazan 4956:Kirsten Boersma 4934:Hanna Harchonak 4922:Katka Prokešová 4901:Beatriz Martins 4865:Lara Hüninghake 4828: 4800:Sander.v.Ginkel 4690:Summer Olympics 4665:Summer Olympics 4644: 4586:31st Norwegian 4572:29th Brazilian 4548:26th: Canadian 4520:14th: Austrian 4512:Julia Huuhtanen 4429: 4391:Sander.v.Ginkel 4386: 4367: 4364: 4361: 4358: 4355: 4283: 4263: 4239:Sander.v.Ginkel 4221:Sander.v.Ginkel 4123:Sander.v.Ginkel 4093: 4090: 4087: 4084: 4081: 4034: 4031: 4028: 4025: 4022: 3999: 3968: 3965: 3962: 3959: 3956: 3937: 3920: 3904:athlete? For a 3885:Sander.v.Ginkel 3858: 3855: 3852: 3849: 3846: 3831: 3728:Brigitte Rajchl 3716:George Portelli 3703: 3700: 3697: 3694: 3691: 3654: 3629: 3626: 3623: 3620: 3617: 3607: 3572: 3569: 3566: 3563: 3560: 3548: 3321: 3281: 3218: 3202: 3176: 3009: 3004: 2967: 2871: 2827: 2763: 2758: 2722: 2700: 2670: 2647:I was asked by 2556: 2301: 2294: 2291: 2288: 2226: 2186: 2055: 1986: 1950: 1832: 1777: 1656: 1653: 1613: 1608:Question about 1042: 1037: 971: 966: 810:recent version 615: 105: 103:Boxing proposal 77: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 5094: 5092: 5083: 5082: 5071: 5070: 5069: 5068: 5067: 5040: 5027: 5018: 5007: 4997:it:Giulia Leni 4974: 4973: 4952: 4939: 4931: 4910: 4897: 4883: 4861: 4852: 4841: 4840: 4810: 4809: 4808: 4807: 4806: 4805: 4792: 4791: 4790: 4789: 4788: 4787: 4786: 4785: 4762:European Games 4754: 4744: 4743: 4742: 4741: 4740: 4739: 4738: 4737: 4733: 4732: 4730: 4723: 4722: 4719: 4712: 4711: 4709: 4702: 4701: 4698: 4692: 4685: 4684: 4682: 4675: 4674: 4671: 4660: 4659: 4657: 4643: 4640: 4639: 4638: 4637: 4636: 4635: 4634: 4631: 4630: 4629: 4619: 4602: 4584: 4570: 4556: 4546: 4534:25th: Swedish 4532: 4518: 4510:21st: Finnish 4508: 4495: 4479: 4478: 4477: 4476: 4475: 4474: 4467: 4466: 4465: 4455: 4454: 4439: 4438: 4437: 4421: 4420: 4385: 4382: 4282: 4279: 4278: 4277: 4276: 4275: 4274: 4273: 4245: 4244: 4228: 4227: 4226: 4207: 4206: 4205: 4204: 4203: 4202: 4145: 4144: 4112: 4111: 4110: 4109: 4108: 4107: 4076: 4075: 4061:Sierra Schmidt 4051: 4050: 4049: 4048: 3932: 3931: 3891: 3890: 3873: 3872: 3841:Times of Malta 3806: 3805: 3791: 3778:Sandra Khumalo 3775: 3761: 3749: 3743: 3737: 3734:Clause Stevens 3731: 3725: 3722:Sandra Coppard 3719: 3684: 3683: 3682: 3681: 3680: 3679: 3664: 3547: 3544: 3543: 3542: 3525: 3508: 3507: 3506: 3473: 3472: 3471: 3437: 3436: 3435: 3434: 3433: 3432: 3431: 3430: 3429: 3428: 3427: 3426: 3425: 3424: 3378: 3377: 3376: 3375: 3374: 3373: 3372: 3371: 3370: 3369: 3368: 3367: 3292: 3291: 3269: 3268: 3246: 3201: 3195: 3175: 3172: 3149: 3148: 3131: 3114: 3111: 3094: 3076: 3073: 3056: 3038: 3035: 3003: 3000: 2999: 2998: 2997: 2996: 2978: 2977: 2956: 2955: 2922: 2921: 2920: 2919: 2900: 2826: 2823: 2809: 2803: 2801: 2799: 2798: 2783: 2780: 2777: 2762: 2759: 2757: 2751: 2750: 2749: 2736: 2735: 2734: 2733: 2732: 2731: 2680: 2679: 2642: 2626: 2606: 2605: 2604: 2603: 2602: 2601: 2600: 2599: 2533: 2532: 2515: 2501: 2474: 2473: 2472: 2471: 2446: 2445: 2427: 2426: 2425: 2411: 2354: 2332: 2331: 2330: 2329: 2311: 2310: 2280: 2279: 2278: 2277: 2259: 2258: 2236: 2217: 2180: 2158: 2157: 2156: 2155: 2154: 2153: 2152: 2151: 2104: 2103: 2086: 2048: 2041: 2040: 2039: 2038: 1985: 1982: 1967: 1966: 1965: 1964: 1963: 1962: 1961: 1960: 1924: 1923: 1922: 1921: 1885: 1865: 1864: 1863: 1862: 1861: 1860: 1859: 1858: 1788: 1787: 1770: 1769: 1768: 1767: 1766: 1765: 1764: 1763: 1762: 1761: 1680: 1679: 1678: 1612: 1606: 1605: 1604: 1603: 1602: 1601: 1600: 1566:Eastern League 1523: 1522: 1486: 1485: 1484: 1483: 1482: 1481: 1453: 1452: 1451: 1450: 1449: 1396: 1395: 1385:Mac Dreamstate 1373: 1372: 1371: 1370: 1352: 1351: 1333: 1286: 1285: 1284: 1283: 1282: 1281: 1242: 1241: 1222: 1221: 1220: 1219: 1202: 1201: 1191:Mac Dreamstate 1171: 1170: 1169: 1168: 1153: 1152: 1151: 1121: 1120: 1119: 1088: 1087: 1041: 1038: 975: 970: 967: 965: 962: 961: 960: 959: 958: 957: 956: 955: 954: 953: 952: 951: 950: 949: 948: 923:Mac Dreamstate 893:Mac Dreamstate 861: 860: 859: 858: 857: 856: 855: 807: 777: 776: 758: 757: 756: 755: 754: 753: 752: 751: 718:Mac Dreamstate 686: 682: 670: 669: 659:Mac Dreamstate 655:European Union 648: 633:Xfinity Series 624: 623: 610: 609: 608: 607: 606: 605: 604: 603: 602: 601: 600: 599: 598: 597: 596: 595: 594: 593: 592: 591: 590: 589: 588: 587: 586: 585: 584: 563: 550: 503:I have made a 501: 497: 493: 459: 458: 457: 405: 276: 263: 243: 242: 231: 230: 229: 228: 198: 197: 180: 104: 101: 98: 97: 92: 87: 82: 75: 70: 65: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 5093: 5080: 5076: 5073: 5066: 5062: 5058: 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4052: 4047: 4044: 4040: 4037: 4016: 4015:edit conflict 4011: 4010: 4009: 4008: 4005: 4004: 4002: 3995: 3988: 3983: 3982: 3981: 3978: 3974: 3971: 3952: 3948: 3941: 3936: 3935: 3934: 3933: 3930: 3929: 3926: 3925: 3923: 3915: 3911: 3907: 3903: 3896: 3893: 3892: 3889: 3886: 3882: 3878: 3875: 3874: 3871: 3868: 3864: 3861: 3842: 3835: 3828: 3827:edit conflict 3823: 3822: 3821: 3820: 3816: 3812: 3804: 3802: 3800: 3798: 3795: 3792: 3790: 3788: 3786: 3784: 3782: 3779: 3776: 3774: 3772: 3770: 3768: 3765: 3762: 3760: 3758: 3756: 3753: 3750: 3747: 3744: 3741: 3740:Ken Robertson 3738: 3735: 3732: 3729: 3726: 3723: 3720: 3717: 3714: 3713: 3712: 3710: 3706: 3688: 3678: 3674: 3670: 3665: 3663: 3660: 3659: 3657: 3649: 3644: 3643: 3642: 3639: 3635: 3632: 3611: 3606: 3605: 3604: 3600: 3596: 3592: 3588: 3587: 3586: 3585: 3582: 3578: 3575: 3557: 3553: 3545: 3541: 3537: 3533: 3529: 3526: 3524: 3520: 3516: 3512: 3509: 3505: 3501: 3497: 3490: 3489: 3488: 3485: 3482: 3477: 3474: 3470: 3467: 3464: 3460: 3456: 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2941: 2940: 2939: 2938: 2934: 2930: 2926: 2918: 2914: 2910: 2905: 2901: 2899: 2898: 2894: 2890: 2883: 2882: 2881: 2880: 2877: 2876: 2874: 2865: 2860: 2859:theoretically 2856: 2855: 2854: 2853: 2849: 2845: 2840: 2836: 2831: 2824: 2822: 2821: 2817: 2813: 2807: 2796: 2792: 2788: 2785:Have won the 2784: 2781: 2778: 2775: 2772: 2768: 2767: 2766: 2760: 2756: 2752: 2748: 2745: 2741: 2738: 2737: 2730: 2727: 2725: 2719: 2716:discussions: 2714: 2710: 2704: 2699: 2698: 2697: 2693: 2689: 2684: 2683: 2682: 2681: 2678: 2675: 2673: 2667: 2663: 2658: 2654: 2650: 2646: 2643: 2641: 2637: 2633: 2632:Jumbotron5000 2630: 2627: 2625: 2621: 2617: 2612: 2608: 2607: 2598: 2594: 2590: 2585: 2584: 2583: 2579: 2575: 2571: 2567: 2566:Eric Reynolds 2560: 2555: 2554: 2553: 2549: 2545: 2541: 2537: 2536: 2535: 2534: 2531: 2527: 2523: 2519: 2516: 2514: 2510: 2506: 2502: 2500: 2496: 2492: 2488: 2484: 2479: 2476: 2475: 2470: 2466: 2462: 2458: 2454: 2450: 2449: 2448: 2447: 2444: 2440: 2436: 2431: 2428: 2424: 2420: 2416: 2412: 2410: 2407: 2404: 2400: 2399: 2398: 2394: 2390: 2386: 2382: 2377: 2373: 2369: 2365: 2362: 2358: 2355: 2353: 2349: 2345: 2341: 2337: 2334: 2333: 2328: 2324: 2320: 2315: 2314: 2313: 2312: 2309: 2304: 2298: 2297: 2285: 2282: 2281: 2276: 2272: 2268: 2263: 2262: 2261: 2260: 2257: 2253: 2249: 2245: 2240: 2237: 2235: 2232: 2231: 2229: 2221: 2218: 2216: 2212: 2208: 2204: 2200: 2194: 2190: 2184: 2181: 2179: 2175: 2171: 2167: 2163: 2160: 2159: 2150: 2146: 2142: 2137: 2136: 2135: 2131: 2127: 2122: 2121: 2120: 2116: 2112: 2108: 2107: 2106: 2105: 2102: 2098: 2094: 2090: 2087: 2085: 2081: 2077: 2073: 2070: 2069: 2068: 2067: 2063: 2059: 2053: 2047: 2045: 2036: 2035: 2034: 2030: 2026: 2021: 2020: 2019: 2018: 2014: 2010: 2004: 2003: 1999: 1995: 1991: 1983: 1981: 1980: 1976: 1972: 1959: 1956: 1955: 1953: 1945: 1944: 1943: 1939: 1935: 1930: 1929: 1928: 1927: 1926: 1925: 1920: 1916: 1912: 1908: 1904: 1901: 1900: 1899: 1895: 1891: 1886: 1884: 1880: 1876: 1872: 1867: 1866: 1857: 1853: 1849: 1844: 1843: 1842: 1841: 1838: 1837: 1835: 1827: 1821: 1817: 1812: 1807: 1806: 1805: 1801: 1797: 1792: 1791: 1790: 1789: 1786: 1783: 1782: 1780: 1772: 1771: 1760: 1756: 1752: 1747: 1746: 1745: 1741: 1737: 1733: 1732: 1731: 1727: 1723: 1719: 1718: 1717: 1713: 1709: 1705: 1700: 1699: 1698: 1694: 1690: 1686: 1681: 1677: 1673: 1669: 1665: 1664: 1663: 1660: 1659: 1649: 1645: 1641: 1640: 1639: 1638: 1634: 1630: 1626: 1622: 1618: 1611: 1607: 1599: 1595: 1591: 1587: 1583: 1579: 1575: 1571: 1567: 1563: 1559: 1555: 1551: 1546: 1542: 1541: 1540: 1536: 1532: 1531:Donniediamond 1527: 1526: 1525: 1524: 1521: 1517: 1513: 1509: 1505: 1501: 1496: 1491: 1488: 1487: 1480: 1476: 1472: 1471:Donniediamond 1468: 1467: 1466: 1462: 1458: 1454: 1448: 1444: 1440: 1439:Donniediamond 1436: 1432: 1431: 1430: 1426: 1422: 1418: 1417: 1416: 1412: 1408: 1407:Donniediamond 1404: 1400: 1399: 1398: 1397: 1394: 1390: 1386: 1382: 1378: 1375: 1374: 1369: 1365: 1361: 1360:Donniediamond 1356: 1355: 1354: 1353: 1350: 1346: 1342: 1337: 1334: 1332: 1328: 1324: 1320: 1316: 1312: 1308: 1304: 1300: 1295: 1291: 1288: 1287: 1280: 1276: 1272: 1271:Donniediamond 1268: 1264: 1263: 1262: 1258: 1254: 1253:Donniediamond 1250: 1246: 1245: 1244: 1243: 1240: 1236: 1232: 1227: 1224: 1223: 1218: 1214: 1210: 1209:Donniediamond 1206: 1205: 1204: 1203: 1200: 1196: 1192: 1188: 1184: 1180: 1176: 1173: 1172: 1167: 1163: 1159: 1154: 1150: 1146: 1142: 1137: 1136: 1135: 1131: 1127: 1122: 1118: 1114: 1110: 1106: 1105: 1104: 1100: 1096: 1092: 1091: 1090: 1089: 1086: 1082: 1078: 1074: 1071: 1070: 1069: 1068: 1064: 1060: 1059:Donniediamond 1056: 1052: 1047: 1039: 1035: 1031: 1027: 1023: 1019: 1015: 1011: 1007: 1003: 999: 995: 991: 987: 983: 979: 974: 968: 963: 947: 943: 939: 938:Donniediamond 934: 933: 932: 928: 924: 919: 918: 917: 913: 909: 908:Donniediamond 904: 903: 902: 898: 894: 890: 889: 888: 884: 880: 879:Donniediamond 876: 875: 874: 870: 866: 862: 854: 850: 846: 845:Donniediamond 842: 841: 840: 836: 832: 827: 826: 825: 821: 817: 816:Donniediamond 813: 808: 805: 801: 800: 799: 795: 791: 786: 785:Donniediamond 781: 780: 779: 778: 775: 771: 767: 763: 760: 759: 750: 746: 742: 741:Donniediamond 738: 734: 733:Donniediamond 729: 728: 727: 723: 719: 715: 711: 707: 702: 701: 700: 696: 692: 691:Donniediamond 687: 683: 679: 674: 673: 672: 671: 668: 664: 660: 656: 652: 649: 647: 643: 639: 634: 629: 626: 625: 622: 619: 618: 611: 583: 579: 575: 571: 570: 568: 564: 560: 556: 551: 548: 544: 539: 538: 537: 533: 529: 525: 520: 519: 518: 514: 510: 509:Donniediamond 506: 502: 498: 494: 490: 489: 488: 484: 480: 476: 471: 467: 464: 460: 456: 452: 448: 447:Donniediamond 444: 440: 439: 438: 437: 436: 432: 428: 424: 423: 422: 418: 414: 413:Donniediamond 410: 406: 403: 402: 401: 397: 393: 388: 387: 386: 385: 384: 380: 376: 375:Donniediamond 372: 368: 364: 359: 358: 357: 353: 349: 344: 343: 342: 338: 334: 330: 326: 325: 324: 320: 316: 315:Donniediamond 312: 311:Ahmed Elbiali 308: 307:Oxford United 304: 300: 296: 295: 294: 290: 286: 285:Donniediamond 282: 277: 273: 269: 264: 261: 257: 253: 249: 245: 244: 240: 236: 233: 232: 227: 223: 219: 214: 210: 206: 202: 201: 200: 199: 196: 192: 188: 184: 181: 179: 175: 171: 166: 163: 159: 156: 155: 154: 153: 149: 145: 141: 139: 135: 131: 126: 120: 117: 116: 112: 110: 102: 96: 93: 91: 88: 86: 83: 80: 76: 74: 71: 69: 66: 63: 61: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 5075: 4891:Jessica Shaw 4811: 4621:33rd Indian 4427: 4387: 4352: 4334: 4313: 4309: 4299: 4284: 4264: 4262: 4257: 4252: 4230: 4217:Tom Egberink 4212: 4114: 4113: 4000: 3998: 3993: 3991: 3921: 3919: 3913: 3909: 3905: 3901: 3899: 3894: 3876: 3807: 3764:David Taylor 3686: 3685: 3655: 3653: 3647: 3556:WP:NOLYMPICS 3549: 3527: 3510: 3475: 3440: 3396: 3392: 3322: 3320: 3314: 3282: 3280: 3275: 3248: 3231: 3219: 3217: 3214: 3210: 3207: 3203: 3200:criterion #4 3177: 3157: 3153: 3150: 3010: 3008: 3005: 2968: 2966: 2961: 2924: 2923: 2886: 2872: 2870: 2867: 2858: 2829: 2828: 2800: 2774:All-American 2764: 2739: 2666:WP:CONSENSUS 2661: 2656: 2644: 2628: 2610: 2517: 2477: 2429: 2379: 2371: 2367: 2363: 2360: 2356: 2335: 2292:The C of E 2289: 2283: 2238: 2227: 2225: 2219: 2198: 2182: 2161: 2093:CrazyAces489 2088: 2071: 2056: 2043: 2042: 2005: 1987: 1968: 1951: 1949: 1902: 1833: 1831: 1823: 1819: 1810: 1778: 1776: 1652: 1614: 1489: 1434: 1402: 1380: 1376: 1335: 1289: 1266: 1248: 1225: 1186: 1182: 1178: 1174: 1072: 1043: 972: 761: 705: 650: 627: 613: 470:Andrew Lewis 303:Aidan Hawtin 271: 234: 182: 157: 142: 121: 118: 114: 113: 106: 78: 43: 37: 4994:Giulia Leni 4846:Fanny Chilo 4766:Asian Games 4623:Pooja Surve 4499:Chloe Hayes 4291:open letter 4265:Ravenswing 4192:FruitMonkey 4168:Black Fives 4134:FruitMonkey 4001:Ravenswing 3922:Ravenswing 3881:Junko Fujii 3794:Carl Murphy 3752:Jeff Pagels 3656:Ravenswing 3546:Paralympics 3323:Ravenswing 3283:Ravenswing 3249:Support-ish 3220:Ravenswing 3184:Yeti Hunter 3011:Ravenswing 2969:Ravenswing 2889:Sideways713 2873:Ravenswing 2769:They are a 2755:WP:NCOLLATH 2248:Dirtlawyer1 2228:Ravenswing 2207:Dirtlawyer1 1952:Ravenswing 1834:Ravenswing 1779:Ravenswing 1617:WP:NCOLLATH 1610:WP:NCOLLATH 1457:Peter Rehse 1421:Peter Rehse 1294:Peter Rehse 1126:Peter Rehse 1095:Peter Rehse 865:Peter Rehse 714:Damon Jones 392:Peter Rehse 367:real tennis 333:Peter Rehse 272:single game 36:This is an 5053:WP:ROUTINE 4943:Tara Fokke 4667:or senior 4490:Mojca Rode 4384:Gymnastics 4338:WP:ATHLETE 3987:WP:ROUTINE 3940:Ravenswing 3834:Ravenswing 3532:Deadman137 3198:WP:NHOCKEY 2925:Suggestion 2864:WP:ROUTINE 2825:Discussion 2806:WP:NHOCKEY 2166:WP:NSPORTS 1816:WP:NHOCKEY 1685:Alan Fried 1315:WP:NHOCKEY 1016:’s APB or 996:(WBO), or 706:fought for 562:champions? 95:Archive 25 90:Archive 24 85:Archive 23 79:Archive 22 73:Archive 21 68:Archive 20 60:Archive 15 3687:Test Case 3397:presuming 3159:covered. 3002:Test case 2835:WP:NTRACK 2830:Rationale 2793:, or the 2540:WP:NSPORT 2483:WP:NSPORT 2376:WP:NSPORT 2344:Astudent0 1588:are not. 1358:Boxing.-- 710:Tony Hill 246:Also the 4999:, and ] 4837:see here 4464:Proposal 4410:RonSigPi 4253:Comment: 4177:RonSigPi 4119:See here 4065:RonSigPi 3906:Canadian 3902:American 3877:Note AfD 3811:RonSigPi 3393:all-time 3342:RonSigPi 3300:RonSigPi 3258:RonSigPi 3161:RonSigPi 2945:RonSigPi 2909:RonSigPi 2844:RonSigPi 2812:RonSigPi 2761:Proposal 2703:Papaursa 2688:Papaursa 2657:outlying 2649:Papaursa 2616:Papaursa 2611:Endorsed 2589:Papaursa 2559:Papaursa 2544:Papaursa 2491:Papaursa 2461:Papaursa 2435:RonSigPi 2415:RonSigPi 2220:Endorse: 2126:RonSigPi 2076:Papaursa 2044:Proposed 2025:Papaursa 1971:RonSigPi 1934:Rikster2 1848:Rikster2 1826:RonSigPi 1796:Rikster2 1751:RonSigPi 1736:Rikster2 1722:RonSigPi 1708:Rikster2 1689:RonSigPi 1668:MelanieN 1644:MelanieN 1629:MelanieN 1590:RonSigPi 1512:RonSigPi 1323:RonSigPi 1231:RonSigPi 1179:The Ring 1158:RonSigPi 1002:The Ring 969:Proposal 831:RonSigPi 790:RonSigPi 638:RonSigPi 574:RonSigPi 547:The Ring 528:RonSigPi 479:RonSigPi 441:I agree 260:RonSigPi 218:RonSigPi 170:RonSigPi 144:RonSigPi 115:Proposed 4430:Lugnuts 4302:ableist 4295:WP:Vote 4258:English 4152:ableist 3910:British 3895:Oppose: 3746:Sik Lau 3528:Comment 3515:DJSasso 3511:Support 3479:pass. 3476:Comment 3445:Eldumpo 3441:Comment 3414:DJSasso 3357:DJSasso 3236:GoodDay 3232:Support 2986:DJSasso 2929:Bagumba 2842:change. 2744:Osplace 2740:Endorse 2711:in it. 2645:Comment 2629:Endorse 2574:Zaostao 2522:Zaostao 2518:Endorse 2478:Comment 2457:WP:NBOX 2381:page... 2357:Comment 2336:endorse 2199:minimum 2162:Endorse 2072:Endorse 1911:Bagumba 1890:Bagumba 1490:Comment 1377:Comment 1336:Comment 1309:or the 1301:or the 1290:Comment 1226:Comment 1175:Support 1073:Comment 992:(WBC), 980:(IBF), 762:Comment 651:Comment 628:Comment 616:Lugnuts 371:WP:NMMA 275:moment. 205:WP:NBOX 158:Endorse 39:archive 4813:those. 4308:is “' 3709:WP:GNG 3669:isaacl 3610:Isaacl 3595:isaacl 3496:isaacl 3276:either 2713:WP:RFC 2709:pinged 2505:Mdtemp 2487:WP:GNG 2453:WP:GNG 2430:Oppose 2389:Kevlar 2340:WP:GNG 2319:Jakejr 2284:Oppose 2267:Jakejr 2239:Oppose 2203:WP:GNG 2193:Jakejr 2189:Mdtemp 2170:Jakejr 2141:Kevlar 2111:Jakejr 2089:Oppose 2058:Mdtemp 2052:WT:MMA 2009:Mdtemp 1994:Jakejr 1990:WT:MMA 1947:list. 1871:WP:GNG 1704:WP:GNG 1341:Mdtemp 1299:BBBofC 1141:Michig 1109:Michig 1077:Michig 1055:WP:BOX 1046:WP:BOX 1006:BoxRec 804:WP:GNG 766:Michig 559:Boxrec 475:WP:GNG 443:Michig 427:Michig 363:tennis 348:Michig 281:WP:GNG 252:BBBofC 248:BBBofC 239:Michig 235:Oppose 213:WP:GNG 209:WP:GNG 187:Michig 183:Oppose 130:BBBofC 4954:74th 4941:76th 4912:71st 4899:62nd 4885:65th 4863:61st 4854:57th 4844:50th 4330:Usain 4322:Oscar 4213:Reply 1875:Cbl62 1811:isn't 1381:Union 1008:, or 998:NYSAC 829:dead. 16:< 5061:talk 4819:talk 4780:and 4448:talk 4414:talk 4287:here 4231:Note 4196:talk 4181:talk 4160:NWHL 4138:talk 4115:Note 4069:talk 4059:and 3949:and 3815:talk 3673:talk 3648:like 3599:talk 3589:See 3536:talk 3519:talk 3500:talk 3484:lute 3481:Reso 3466:lute 3463:Reso 3449:talk 3418:talk 3405:lute 3402:Reso 3361:talk 3346:talk 3315:have 3304:talk 3262:talk 3240:talk 3188:talk 3165:talk 2990:talk 2949:talk 2933:talk 2913:talk 2904:ESPN 2893:talk 2848:talk 2816:talk 2723:Mkdw 2692:talk 2671:Mkdw 2662:what 2636:talk 2620:talk 2593:talk 2578:talk 2568:and 2548:talk 2526:talk 2509:talk 2495:talk 2465:talk 2439:talk 2419:talk 2406:lute 2403:Reso 2393:talk 2348:talk 2323:talk 2302:talk 2271:talk 2252:talk 2211:talk 2191:and 2174:talk 2145:talk 2130:talk 2115:talk 2097:talk 2080:talk 2062:talk 2054:). 2029:talk 2013:talk 1998:talk 1975:talk 1938:talk 1915:talk 1894:talk 1879:talk 1852:talk 1800:talk 1755:talk 1740:talk 1726:talk 1712:talk 1693:talk 1672:talk 1657:5969 1654:Onel 1633:talk 1594:talk 1574:ECHL 1535:talk 1516:talk 1508:NABF 1500:OPBF 1475:talk 1461:talk 1443:talk 1425:talk 1411:talk 1389:talk 1364:talk 1345:talk 1327:talk 1319:OPBF 1303:OPBF 1275:talk 1269:. -- 1257:talk 1235:talk 1213:talk 1195:talk 1162:talk 1145:talk 1130:talk 1113:talk 1099:talk 1081:talk 1063:talk 1051:here 1034:AIBA 1014:AIBA 1010:TBRB 942:talk 927:talk 912:talk 897:talk 883:talk 869:talk 849:talk 835:talk 820:talk 814:. -- 812:HERE 806:etc? 794:talk 770:talk 745:talk 737:talk 722:talk 712:and 695:talk 678:HERE 663:talk 642:talk 578:talk 567:HERE 543:TBRB 532:talk 524:TBRB 513:talk 483:talk 451:talk 431:talk 417:talk 409:HERE 396:talk 379:talk 352:talk 337:talk 319:talk 289:talk 222:talk 191:talk 174:talk 148:talk 125:NABA 4875:), 4871:, ( 4324:or 4164:NBL 4156:NHL 3990:so. 3252:in 2651:at 2481:of 2372:C: 2368:B: 2364:A: 1905:At 1642:Hi 1018:WSB 988:), 986:NBA 365:to 5063:) 5033:. 5003:, 4992:, 4969:, 4965:, 4961:, 4927:, 4920:, 4916:, 4906:, 4893:, 4889:, 4879:, 4867:, 4858:, 4848:, 4821:) 4784:). 4776:, 4772:, 4768:, 4764:, 4760:, 4627:19 4625:, 4617:18 4615:, 4610:17 4608:, 4600:16 4598:, 4596:15 4594:, 4592:14 4590:, 4582:13 4580:, 4578:12 4576:, 4568:11 4566:, 4564:10 4562:, 4552:, 4542:, 4538:, 4528:, 4524:, 4514:, 4504:, 4450:) 4416:) 4376:C) 4372:(T 4368:12 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