Knowledge (XXG) talk:Articles for deletion/Allegations of French apartheid

792:, as its very foundations, an extensive preexisting discourse likening the I-P conflict to the South African one. And that's really the tip of the iceberg. A lot of material has as its central subject not human rights per se, but rather this contentious issue: the validity and/or usefulness of the South African model for thinking about Israel-Palestine. There is a lot of work of this kind, in which the comparison is examined from every possible angle ranging from the experience of apartheid to the historical roots of the conflict to the efficacy of international sanctions to the appropriateness of a South Africa-style Truth and Reconciliation Commission for the I-P conflict. And this work in turn generates more controversy among pundits, activists, etc.; it generates boycott proposals and divestment campaigns and articles like Ian Buruma's "Do not treat Israel like apartheid South Africa" and Joel Pollack's "The Trouble With the Apartheid Analogy." This work, that is, along with the preexisting discourse/meme/debate/whatever that it builds on, as well as the further controversy it generates, together constitute a coherent subject which does not fit comfortably into the 482:. I think this entire discussion could just be moved there, perhaps after archiving the rather old discussions that are on that page now. Unless I am mistaken, the ArbComm specifically suggested that discussions on an overall solution take place on that page. I believe there are existing templates that can be placed on the articles involved, and/or their talk pages, to direct people to the centralized discussion. The dummy articles can then be linked-to from the centralized discussion page. This sort of systematic solution seems more appropriate than using someone's user-space. As for the proposal itself, I am not sure that "segregation" is the correct word in all cases, and there already are segregation articles for some countries, so there needs to be further discussion and coordination. In the meantime, I think all the AfD's, merge proposals (like for the U.S. article), etc. should be dropped so that we can have a meaningful centralized discussion without the distraction of articles disappearing and reappearing at random. 2457:, all with explicit reference to "allegations of apartheid" articles. It could settle the sorts of questions that formed the core of the debate in this AfD, such as for example whether an "allegations of apartheid" article, to be legitimate, needs to cite secondary sources establishing the notability of the allegations (as with the Israel article), or whether it's sufficient to weave a narrative around primary-source materials (as with the France article) – or even, at the lower end of the spectrum, whether it's OK to build an "allegations of apartheid" article entirely around sources that never mention apartheid or South Africa at all (as with the Jordan article). This sort of comprehensive approach would not say categorically, "only the 'allegations of apartheid in X' article is valid"; it would just lay down very explicitly what the bar of legitimacy is, not in terms of 1270:(response (mostly) to Targeman) Hey Targeman, let me first off say welcome to Knowledge (XXG). Yes, you are a n00b, but you seem to be talking very sensibly, and are helping here, I think. (Indeed your prose is pleasurable enough to read that I suspected you could contribute with a professional level of English before I read your comment.) I think taking the whole group of articles “of-line” makes a certain amount of sense, but the way that would work would basically be to have us all vote a straight up or down “vote” on all the articles at once in an AfD, and let the closing admin see if s/he thinks they are worth keeping. I would support his, but I don’t see how, within the framework of how we operate now, put in, say, the IA article back “online” would work. A !vote? A DRV? ArbCom? (BTW, Jimbo doesn’t usually directly intervene in content disputes). 1891:

result in the same idea of a "series" as the article here. In terms of "Human rights," the problem is also scope, which would prevent any real discussion despite the huge amount of material on this subject. Ultimately it gets back to the fact that while every country has its controversies, they're not all the same controversies, and one of the hotter ones in Israel is this particular comparison. I do agree that finding the right name is what's necessary. I simply tend to think it won't happen in time for this AfD, since it's something that's been discussed several times before, while the whole idea of trying to resolve it here seems problematic for several reasons.

2417:, because it's not about that; it's about the highly prominent, multi-faceted, and ongoing national and international debate about a controversial comparison. That debate is not primarily about segregation. It's about everything from historical and ethical understandings of the conflict to the question of legitimacy and efficacy of boycotts and other grassroots activism to the pragmatics of international peacemaking (Adam & Moodley, et al). It's a topic unto itself, a remarkably coherent and self-referential one at that, and I don't think there can be any serious claim that it's non-notable. I would have no objection to using scare quotes or other 1237:

Algeria, Tunisia, Western African countries). But what shows that France IS NOT a segregationist country is that whenever a black or an arab manages to get economic success (which is ten time harder than for someone from French ascendancy, see why below), he or she rarely stays in the slums but buys a loft in Paris or a house in a fancy suburb. The problem in France is about racism and discrimination (THE LAW is the same for everybody in the country and it does not bother about religion or race, but THE FRENCH PEOPLE much too often refuse to give a job or rent their house to someone who does not have the right colour).

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to antagonize us and other Jews. I'd prefer keeping allegations of apartheid articles about only arab and muslim countries, the ones who have an anti-zionist majority, and whom are the ones attacked us whith allegations of apartheid, rather than uninvolved countries like france, because France for all practical purposes is, uninvolved. Reguardless, the French article is better than nothing; what is most important is the number of countries, not whom. The more countries that are accused of apartheid, the weaker each attack is, and the less merit each allegaion recieves."

1280:, with wonderful, comprehensive sourcing and arguments pro and con. However, the title here would be misleading, just as the IA title is. I’m happy to have IA redirected to an Israeli/Palestinian conflict, just as all non South-African apartheid articles could be. But imagine if we deleted all of them, but kept the French apartheid one in the mix. What would that say? That FA is somehow “truer” than IA. Unless and until we can remove the word “Allegations” from these articles and still have them withstand scrutiny, I think we should have none of them. 1358:, some of the accusations about apartheid apply to other countries in Europe too, although the situation is probably worse in France. For example those riots in Bradford UK in 2001, I remember reading about apartheid claims being made about the racial divides in the northern England, this should also be detailed. I object to the fact that some are attempting using this article as a bargaining chip with the Israeli apartheid article, It is counterproductive to compare two unique and very different situations with a different history behind them. 1171:

keep voters below, who largely edit Israel articles and whom I have never seen before on Latin American articles or African-diaspora articles, confirms that this is an attempt to distort and subvert the consensus process in order to continue a game, which you yourself admit is a violation of WP:POINT. The knock on effects, which are subverting and damaging unrelated subjects concerning race relations in Brazil, or articles such as Tourism in Cuba reveals that this game does not have wikipedia readers' best interests at heart.

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but equal" and the opposite, but something completely different. Of course, the same is true in France; "segregation" may be one way of discussing the issue, but doesn't seem to be the natural way that an article on France generally would. Considering Israel, however, I simply have a hard time seeing how the apartheid debate can avoid an article of its own, considering the huge amount of material. Still, the question does remain finding an agreeable name for that article, though I'm also not sure that can be resolved here.

2313:, whatever you do, I'm not interested any more. I'm amazed that I let myself be dragged into this cesspool in the first place. I've wasted countless hours on research, arguing, persuasion, and it took me a while to realize I was talking to a wall. (Wailing Wall?) I'm going to unwatch all related pages right now, and leave you play till Armageddon. This has been enlightening, however: for months on end, political cliques are allowed to create bullshit articles to prove a point, finally admit it, and they don't get outright 2554:. Notability is quite different - it can be assessed objectively, based on the quality and quantity of reliable sources. There's really no such thing as an "illegitimate" topic as far as Knowledge (XXG) is concerned; the question is whether it's notable or not. In the case of France, allegations of apartheid clearly aren't notable given the lack of any national controversy on the subject (as our French contributors have pointed out). The issue may be "legitimate" but it's not notable. -- 1229:

same rights despite a very different situation in reality (French born citizen owned good lands in Algeria, "overseas" deputies had fewer weight in the Parliament than "continental" ones, etc)- the only moment in recent French history which could be qualified as "apartheid" was the Vichy regime (during the second world war, the French regime of Petain and Laval set after France's defeat in 1940, decided to create a specific status for the jews, like what was existing in Germany).

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anyway. If this is truly going to work then we will need one mass AfD of all these articles once and for all. In order for that to happen you will need to be more specific Jayjg. I for one would love to see all of these "allegations...." articles and related POV pushing and political/religous manifests in disguise removed. Let's do this, Let's agree not to use Knowledge (XXG) as a battleground once and for all. The question is... are you ready to delete

1974:. People are drowning in a storm in a tea cup and forgetting we are here to build an encyclopedia of a new kind, one that is both interactive in nature, and that instead of generating original content, is actually a reflection of the original content of others. If we treat these series as a single entity, and if we insist they are titled wrong and POV forks, without looking at their individual merits, then we are going against everything a 💕 is about: 2479:

ideology. The clique responsible for these articles has already systematically violated core Knowledge (XXG) policies - what makes you think that they will respect, or even agree to, an informal agreement with no consequences for violating it? Recall also that in the previous AfDs on the Israel article, the clique has voted consistently to delete it - not merge, rewrite or rename, which is what the proposals above amount to. The bottom line is that

2348:); it's a decision that would have to be taken by the Arbitration Committee. Also, don't lose faith in Knowledge (XXG)'s self-correcting mechanism - it hasn't yet been fully utilised in this case. The next step will have to be an RfC and then referral to the ArbCom, as I can't see this being resolved without firm action being taken against the clique. Sefringle's uncharacteristic attack of honesty will at least make that easier to justify. -- 824:

goes. I am not sure of the best way to do that, since a cut-and-paste move would wipe out the edit history. Since this is not an article, I don't know if that matters so much. I also don't know if this talk page can be renamed without also renaming the AfD page, which obviously shouldn't happen. I do know that continuing a global discussion of the apartheid issue on the talk page of the AfD for the France article is not a good idea.

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created by that time) should be categorically rejected. Articles on Knowledge (XXG) are preserved or deleted based on their compliance with policy. They are not grouped into blocs based on irrelevant and idiosyncratic criteria like common use of a certain word in their title, and then forced to sink or swim together. Such an approach would be a monumental abuse of Knowledge (XXG) policy and an affront to common sense..

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whom we've seen here, issuing the same ultimatum there that they've delivered here. All of the Latin-America- or Brazil-focused editors voted "delete," though Carlossuarez46, who voted "keep," appears to be fluent in Spanish. The money quote in the deletion discussion came from the ever-eloquent Latin-America-focused Zlietzen, when he was asked by Jay if he still believed the RS-material was inadequate:

972:, etc. Yes, a big, round, zero edits. Why? because I know very well that reason has no chance when confronted with passion. And passion does not belong in scientific research. So I simply abstain from editing those articles. Now, you may think I’m some sort of cold, dispassionate, haughty and patronizing asshole. Hell no. I just wanted to drop a few lines of food for thought, do what you will with them. 1819:. So let’s get it straight: you basically opposed the word “apartheid” when applied to Israel. You saw it as inflammatory, provocative, what have you. So you created several other “allegations of apartheid” articles on randomly chosen countries for the sole purpose of lessening the pressure on Israel. OK. Now’s the time to untie this Gordian knot. Here’s my proposed list of things to do asap: 864: 400:. I am not inherently opposed to the existence of any of these articles. The titles, however, are extremely misleading and if left, would result in continuous and absolutely needless edit wars/AfDs, and I have a feeling we've all had enough of this, haven't we? Finally, kudos to those who have refrained from personal attacks. Here's to more fruitful and honest debate in the future. -- 1480:, you go read something about it and you come back when you've got information from other sources than Fox News pundits. The mere term of "race" is practically a taboo in France. There are contrasting living conditions among Frenchmen, and indeed some suburbs of Paris are shitholes. But people are there because they are poor, and they are poor because they have no jobs or cheap ones. 2301:

policies - NPOV, OR, etc - then protected their own backs through acting as a block on AfD. There's absolutely no guarantee that reworking the Israel article will cause them to stop their misconduct. Ultimately this is something that's only likely to be fully resolved through an RfC and RfA to put an end to the disruption, in parallel with an effort to fix the Israel article. --

2259:, I mostly share your assessement of the situation, but I draw the opposite conclusion: all the dummy article are crap and should be deleted, whatever the circumstances of their creation. And of course the initial problem should be solved if we do not want the wiki-intifada to keep expanding to other articles (bring in Wikipedians in Leclercs with UN markings ?). 2488:

behavioural problems at the outset, in order to ensure that the comprehensive solution you rightly call for can actually be enforced. The position we're in is essentially that a small number of extremists are systematically blocking the moderate majority. The extremists need to be sidelined - forcibly if need be - so that a good-faith solution can be found. --

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guilty of single and bloody-minded editing on the “other side.” For myself, I’m glad to see the same old faces, on both sides. Eventually, if everyone who is pro, anti, and neutral talks enough, we may end up with a compromise that satisfies all. I think, actually, we’re pretty close right now. So maybe let’s ratchet down the rhetoric a few degrees, plan?

2292:. The other articles should not be kept, but they should either be renamed to something more neutral or - preferably - their content should (where necessary) be merged into other articles. However, the big problem with this is the nature of the objections to the Israel article. If you review the five previous AfDs on it, you'll see that its opponents 703:. (Those are off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others.) With respect to your second point, based on what I hear and read the charge that Israel is an apartheid state seems to be second only to the charge that Zionism is racism in terms of its "popularity". So yes, it is so important that it would warrant its own article, just as 2550:

for instance, wouldn't like the many articles on sexual practices we have on Knowledge (XXG). Likewise, many people have objected to our many Pokémon articles on the ground that they're frivolous. That sort of difference of opinion is exactly why we've always avoided making "legitimacy" a criterion and is the reason for

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article and have failed six times to get it deleted are now going around Knowledge (XXG) creating parallel articles in an effort to antagonise enough people to get the whole lot deleted in one go. Sefringle, who's one of the clique, has made this clear: "We know the anti-zionists created that article

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extend the analogy, but many of the pages have been deleted because they are not good, and others are actually of equal and even more value than the Israeli one. So in seeking to invalidate the allegations of israeli apartheid, they have actually validated an entire range of articles. Then every time

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does not apply to article titles or afd's. Since these articles cannot be balanced on their own, the only way to balance them is to create similar articles about other countries, thus making the attack page have less effect since country X isn't the only one being alleged of being an apartheid state.

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Guys, remember that the question for us as Wikipedians is not whether we think a comparison between France and South Africa is plausible or fair but whether for reliable sources outside of Knowledge (XXG) it has ever become a subject in its own right. It is quite clear that it has not. It's a basic

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Both words are used to describe situations that "look the same" in a very general way but rarely in an appropriate manner. South African appartheid and US racial segregation are not even alike. In the US, the blacks and the whites were supposedly "equals" in right but were not allowed to mix together

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An encyclopedia should always care about the exact significance of words. Apartheid has a precise historical meaning (the political and social discrimination in South Africa that ended in the nineties) and it is the same for racial segregation (a system which existed in the US between 1896 and 1956).

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Yes, I still do, Jayjg. You've just quoted a few people at length who have simply used a metaphor in passing whilst referring to a complex issue, solely to ensure the article remains as part of some strategy involving Allegations of Israeli apartheid. That is not an encyclopedia article. The group of

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I propose to take the article off line for some time and discuss its merits elsewhere. If the use of the word “apartheid” in the title’s article or body text is what you object to, and I can easily understand that, I’m sure lots of alternative synonymous expressions could be found. If after, say, two

2549:

I think you've put your finger on a key point here. This dispute, at its most basic level, is essentially a clash between conflicting notions of legitimacy and notability. Legitimacy is of course a very subjective concept which depends entirely on your personal POV. I'm sure religious conservatives,

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I'll take your word for it on the article scope - I'm not involved in editing it, so my own knowledge of it is limited. Your concept of a "comprehensive" solution with an agreed bar for inclusion is sensible. However, I'm afraid that by itself is unlikely to resolve this conflict, which is rooted in

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article with many many sources from serious newspapers. This is because journalists have a special rhetoric, not because the subject is notable. But if we want to write something correct about that, we will choose a neutral, precise, factual (not metaphorical), fair and exact title about a related

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There is no vitriol in my comments, if you noticed I haven't been editing the Israeli apartheid article and I would rather not get involved. However it is a matter of principle that we can't start mass renaming articles because of attempts at deal breaking going on the talk page here, even if it is

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But that's besides the point. You totally missed my point: my point is that the fact that a phrase (apartheid) is used in opinion articles in an altermondialist, very lefty, newspaper to describe a social situation (racial discrimination in France) cannot be used as proof that this phrase is used in

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I think he's saying the seven fake ones created for leveraging purposes should be deleted outright, and the controversial original should be taken off-line and edited in a less volatile and more collaborative environment, until such time as it's in good enough shape to reenter Knowledge (XXG). If I

977:

So back to our AfD controversy, it has become rather clear for me now that G-Dett’s assessment of your apparently random article creation in order to have the Israel article ditched is quite accurate. (I may be of course mistaken, and I apologize if I am.) These articles are poor and the sources, as

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I mostly agree with Rama's position on all this, though simply substituting "segregation" for "apartheid" suffers the same problems and would be most unhelpful. What seems logical to me is a merge of all encyclopaedic information to "Human rights in X", with any forking only per policy as applied in

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You do realize that there is no substitute for AfD unless you believe that the other articles can be speedy deleted? Attempts to have an article deleted by voting keep on other otherwise blatantly POV articles like this one are futile because such deletions will end up at DRV as being out of process

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is the way to root them out. This would also require some heavy copyediting of their tone, such as deleting "apartheid" where it is gratuitous, that is in almost all instances. A retitling would encourage editors to at least have a try to make them neutral, whereas the current one are just baits for

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Dear Rama, thanks for you comments. No one has ever accused me before of possesing any intelligence! And your observation explain why the pro-zionists have never gone through with their threats to ban me from wikipedia. They probably decided that I was such a liability to the anti-oppressors that I

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shows the fallacy of this argument. If there is a problem with the Israeli article, then fix it but to create 10s of articles on other countries to try and find a way to delete the Israeli one is not the correct process but if it has been done then each one should go through AfD on its own merits →

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As for my proposal, to make it clear, yes, I proposed we scrap all the "apartheid" articles, this one included, leaving only the Israel article on the table. I wouldn't normally advocate an en masse dumping of several articles at once but they're all so fundamentally flawed that they need rewriting

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And while I’m on the subject, I’ll also just briefly raise an eyebrow at these same editors complaining that other editors tend to have similar opinions on these issues, and to express them often across many articles. The most bitter denunciations seem to be coming from the editors who are the most

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I think the best thing would be to vote for them all on an up or down vote, full stop. There have been good arguments put forward as to why the FA article should go, but they apply fairly readily to IA. Yes, there are more sources in the IA article, but I would have little difficulty coming up with

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If we really have to use these words in analogies, I would say that the Nazi system was an appartheid until the beginning of the "final solution" which has its own dedicated terminology; French occupation in Algeria was more like US racial segregation because Algerian and French had "nominally" the

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even if this was true, it would be irrelvant - AfDs are not decided by vote, but by a discussion based on arguments, and the survival of the Brazil article indicates that enough arguments were brought forth by its advocates to enable it to survive, putting the lie to the claim that all the articles

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The problem is that the issue isn't just "segregation," but a variety of others which unfortunately very specifically involve the comparison to Sourth African apartheid. Largely it is a debate about rhetoric, but a highly prominent one nonetheless. That's to say, it's not a debate between "separate

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I am a priori very cautious with any article on a propaganda term (and if the introduction of "apartheid" in the context of the Middle East is not gross propaganda, I don't know what is). The fact that the term is used could be addressed somewhere, but this is a footnote in another article. I can't

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Because we're dealing with an organized disruption/disinformation campaign, we will almost certainly need some sort of "comprehensive" solution. Any proposal however that involves a straight up-and-down vote on all eight articles (or twelve, or fifteen, or however many it is that trolls will have

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who behave in a disgraceful manner. Te two problems are to be addressed independently. There are unquestionably problems with "apartheid in Israel". That these problems were brought to attention by unacceptable means does not alleviate the fact that they are problems. If you are uncomfortable with

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Well, don't know about motivations (as in "every French here can't be neutral" or the opposite "French express here because they have more clue on the subject", or even "many Americans have a higher tolerance to French bashing than to any other xenophobic wording and are, hum, not so well informed

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This is, I think, an important distinction to make. I know far-left publications that explain that the Communist Revolutionary League (LCR) is a center-right party; and they actually have arguments for that, that make sense within a particular point of view on the world. Yet, it would seem totally

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a lot of countries have similar problems with race relations and such, from what I've read it's just worse in France (compared to the rest of western Europe), the minorities are more ghettoized and segregated (increasing in recent decades) than lets say neighboring Germany. It's debatable whether

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disruption really rattles my cage. Of course, as you say, the quality of an article is the only thing that ultimately matters, whoever wrote it and for whatever reason. My point is purely organizational: let's stop wasting our time on pointless editing warfare, fix the core problem, and move on. I

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Of course, racism exists in France, as well as social segregation. This can mistakenly be considered as racial segregation because most of the poors, most of the people who have to live in dilapidated suburbs, are immigrants. And most of immigrants in France come from its former colonies (Morocco,

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is slightly different. What would happen, for example, to the Adam and Moodley material? That has been regarded as one of the most valuable sources in the article, and one of the only ones respected by partisans of both sides. Their book isn't about Human Rights, except quite indirectly. Their

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A clarification: the Israel article is wildly volatile and protean in form. My description of its scope was something of a Platonic ideal – that most un-wiki of things. What I described is what the article's relatively stable sources support, what it has been at moments in the past, and what it

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with out pointing (he-he) out their actual disruptions, I do agree issues for an article should be dealt with in the article. Allegations of X in Y might be notable, verifiable, and well sourced, so it could be included while Allegations of X in Z might not, and I see no reason to include. All of

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which aknowledge the concept of "race" (you will kindly notice that this contrasts with for instance the USA, where you have to state your "race" to get medical treatement). There are of course cases of individuals who happen to feature racist bias, but this is generally not the case, and stating

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About the 2005 riots... the rioters were young unemployed people leaving in lousy suburbs. Some were blacks or arabs (most of them of course since the majority of the people leaving there are first or second generation immigrants) but some of them were "Gaulois" (a word used to speak about French

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2-only public schools and only until baccalaureat are impacted, which means that zealots can still freely send their kids in private schools. OK, it can be a problem for some of them because they do not have the financial means or there is no private school next to their home. This law definitely

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1-this law, even if it was clearly aimed AGAINST THE MUSLIM GIRLS, says that NO blatant sign of religious belonging should be tolerated inside the schools. Jews and Sikh are also prohibited to wear kippas and turbans and Christians are invited not to wear large crosses. There is nothing racial in

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The Brazil article was created by Urthogie, and the "keep" votes in the deletion discussion were: Jayjg, Urthogie, JoshuaZ, tickleme, Tewfik, Humus sapiens, The Behnam, Jossi, Ironduke, Shamir1, Gzuckier, Carlossuarez46, Dsol, and thewinchester. 10 of those 14 are Israel-focused editors, most of

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are equally legitimate, and form a natural family, rather than representing a species of hoax, whereby a heavy cargo of counterfeit goods has been loaded onto a ship in order to sink its legitimate freight. This is one of the core elements of the dispute at hand. If you'll rephrase your opening

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Well, I agree in principle, I just don't believe the two suggestions solve the problem. Unfortunately, these have both been discussed before; the problem with the first is that it would set the precedent of the first "Criticism of country X" article, would be hugely over-broad, and would likely

823:

Although I disagree with most of what G-Dett has said here, I can agree that what is now on the "centralized discussion" page is not what I had in mind when I suggested taking the discussion there. What I thought would happen is to move this discussion there and let it continue and see where it

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context other than South Africa. All the cited sources have been apparently chosen for containing the apartheid metaphor. I always assume good faith, so I'll put this one on the editors' lack of understanding of the word, their limited knowledge of France, and their limited experience of serious

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position. They will no doubt continue to resist any efforts to discuss the apartheid analogy in a new article, even if it has a less inflammatory title. The root of this problem is that a group of editors have systematically disrupted Knowledge (XXG) for POV reasons and violated a slew of core

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There is no need to make personal attacks, we could debate facts and figures that paint a picture of disenfranchised minorities in France, and there is no doubt an institutionalized discrimination at fault among other reasons, still I think the comparison of France to apartheid South Africa is

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article because it doesn't fit their ideological framework. There is simply no way of meeting that objective without accepting the proposition - completely antithetical to Knowledge (XXG)'s goals - that some topics are taboo and mustn't be discussed. The only way around this is to address the

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I guess I keep hoping that because the notability of the analogy is copiously supported, that some naming tweak will satisfy the opposition, but you are probably right Chris that it won't. Your global warming analogy will raise hackles; my only objection to it is that it may reintroduce red

509:, it'd be less creepy if you just stated what you mean clearly, like "it will have to address the issue of the article on Israel". For which I also find the term "apartheid" inappropriate, incidentally. But I am accustomed to people solving their problems, not exporting them to other realms. 2210:, if I understand your point, you are mixing two different problems: on one hand we have a bunch of inherently POV articles which are a disgrace to our project (the "Apartheid in Switzerland" series), stemming from a conflict on "Apartheid in Israel"; on the other hand, we have a bunch of 1542:. It has not occurred to these individuals that in this way they will antagonize many editors who have up till now had no experience of Zionism and of the tactics of its advocates. This blindness to the unintended effects of ones own actions is something of a trend amongst Zionists. 1978:. Of all of these whole series of the debates, the most insulting to me of all things is that we are ultimately not trusting the intelligence and capacity of our readers to discern opinion from facts. We all die a little inside when we mistrust our readers in such a savage fashion. -- 1232:

Apart from that period, no one should use "appartheid" to qualify the French political and social system except in a metaphoric way (which is the case in the references of the article). And after the independance of Algeria in 1962, nothing come close to real "racial segregation".

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I’ve pointed out repeatedly above, don’t hold water. Some bits and pieces may be salvageable, but as obviously no-one really cared about their quality in the first place, I hereby propose to delete them all and concentrate on the core problem, allegations of apartheid in Israel.

1613:. I therefore think that this magazine is not a good source for knowing whether such or such behaviour of French society is commonly called in such or such way; it is, though, a source for knowing how parts of the French far-left call these behaviours in their publications. 1289:

attack, and is pretty easily batted away—the article either is or is not good, doesn’t matter who wrote it. I’d direct this comment at some of the more experienced editors weighing in here, but they have been told it many times and it doesn’t seem particularly to have sunk

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somewhat unfair, after all people get lynched in public in Russia for being a different skin color yet there is no apartheid article on Russia, yet Brazil has one even though it is the most multi ethnic nation in South America, that claim seems to be original research.

2023:, I reject any discussion about other articles here or any comparisons, delete or keep, it shouldn't effect the outcome of the other articles. In fact I find it extremely disruptive that many users are using this article space for discussions about other articles. 1549:

I say let these articles stay. An interested reader can see the history, find out who created these articles and examine their contributions and in this way discover much about their ideology and how this ideology manifests itself in their dealings with others.

1545:

There is no way a consensus will be reached to delete these articles, as the pro-Israel editors seem to have locked themselves into this suicidal course and are determined to go all the way. And they will attack anyone who tries to save them from their folly.

2087:- So the article doesn't tell anything about "Allegations of apartheid in France", but collects "Allegations of apartheid analogies in France". The present title is just wrong. It doesn't match neither the reality, nor article's content, nor article's sources. 1953:

is at work all over this place. The anti-Israeli pov pushers on one side thought that Israel was a unique case of a country with polices that are analogized to apartheid, but they are obviously wrong. Then the pro-Israel POV pushers thought to get cute and

1488:

that there are official policies in this direction is pure lunacy, and proof that one doesn't have the slightest clue about the situation in France. Or I'd like to see you pointing to an article of contemporary French law that you could take as example.

349:

I think Victor's proposal is the place to start. It strikes exactly the right sort of balance between a comprehensive solution and a case-by-case approach. An element of comprehensiveness is necessary when organized and relentless editors present one

1737:

This seems very wrong to mass rename a bunch of articles because of a deletion request for this article, is this even allowed by wikipedia policy? This kind of bargaining is wrong, debate the article being discussed for deletion, not the others.

2569:

an editorial arguing, "it's time we stopped talking about Israel's occupation and began looking at our ourselves. The condition of Lebanon's Palestinian refugee communities approaches apartheid," I'll cheer. But if I wake up tomorrow and find

2225:, I kindly suggest that you refrain from editing political articles on the Middle East. They obviously bring you to such a heat that you engage in statements which cannot possibly do you justice to your intelligence (unless you are a lemming). 1911:

the title is only a small part of an article, in each article the users should discuss name changes or content changes even if they survive deletion, deciding the fate of that many articles here is against consensus and circumventing policy.

387:

good sources using metaphors such as segregation, ghettoization, etc, all of which are appropriate for the subjects here discussed. Secondly, a perfunctory glance suggests all of these articles need more balanced writing and more good (and

788:

book is about a broad historical, ethical, and pragmatic comparison between South African apartheid and the Israeli occupation, and an application of "lessons learned" from the successful South African peace process. It is a book that

1872:

Small correction. I did not write the other articles, but others with similar views to mine did. Secondly I do not speak for all of the zionists on wikipedia; I speak for myself only. Anyway, I'll support the proposal depending on the

2606:

It seems that most people agree that the word is inappropriate because it designates a specifically South African situation, and that the word has never been used about the situation in France except as a metaphor in opinion columns.

2234:

You, your fellows and your pro-Israeli counterparts are one living incarnation of the problems with the articles on Israel. I really don't see why we Wikipedians should host the same hatred that is tearing the middle East apart.

1782:(...) why we created other apartheid articles. All allegations of apartheid articles are meant to antagonize people of that culture; the Israel one included. They are all POV forks. Their existance on wikipedia is proof that 694:

Rama wrote "I cannot think of a propaganda term so important that it'd warrant its own article, and and "apartheid" related to Israel is certainly not on the top of the list". With respect to your first point, take a look at

959:

prejudice, for what it’s worth. I am an atheist and I strongly oppose any kind of religious interference in public life. To simplify, I dislike religion, all religions, very strongly. Now look at how many edits I’ve done in

2393:

and we have to face it. But I, for one, think we should not believe that debates about segregation/apartheid/ethnic separation in Liecthenstein or Iceland are as serious and equally merit their own articles and are the

177:

should also be rolled back into the main article. The bulk of it now is: the Iraqi refugee situation, an extra-ordinary crisis, and the banning of the sale of property to foreigners, which is not exactly hard-core

1325:

didn't attack any person but rather pointed out the systemic flaws in their work; that, I would imagine, is fair game and not an ad hominem attack. Now if they stole my car, or took a leak in my kitchen sink,

611:

The analogy itself may or may not be gross propaganda, but the fact remains that it has been raised by diverse sources. It's hardly propagandistic or unencyclopedic to have an article about the term's usage.

418:

I like consensus, and won't certainly oppose this one. And I do agree with Targeman that comparisons with South African appartheid are misguided. But: there is nonetheless such accusation towards Israel, and a

1518:. Apologists for the Israeli government tried to get the article deleted many times but they failed, because the subject is notable (Jimmy Carter even wrote a book with this title). So having failed to get 1937:. It is basically people who do not want their country insulted, but while I am not a heartless bastard and totally sympathize with the sentiment expressed in a personal level, all of it stinks and reeks of 2018:

I don't know if all of these articles are disruptive, hence the reason why they should be discussed on a case by case basis on their respective talk pages, if you notice this is a talk page for the AfD for

310:

I find this to be an interesting, but misguided suggestion. If you want to make a big change to all these articles, we can start a discussion on that. Right now we're discussing only "France apartheid."--

1635:, which is far from far-left, in particular in France, where altermondialisme spans the spectrum from far-right to far-left. However, even if oyur critique were correct, it would be irrelevant: we are for 984:

weeks of common efforts we conclude there’s no way any balanced article could result from our joint efforts, we could – I’ve no idea if this has ever been done, so please be nice and don’t flame me – ask

2664:

Good continuation to the sane people around here! happy hatred to the others, by all means try to stay in your own company, cancelling each others within your little insignificant realm of insanity, and

2610:

Yet, for some reason, the discussion gets dragged into discussion of "Zionists", and apparently a group of Zionists on Knowledge (XXG). This is totally offtopic. I see that a bunch of people are playing

2296:, not just its title - they plainly regard the apartheid analogy as being so illegitimate that it shouldn't be discussed, regardless of how well documented or how prominent it may be. It's essentially a 2005:

If you're for principle, all the apartheid articles are de facto nominated for deletion. To do so de jure would only result in disruption very much against the "Do not disrupt Knowledge (XXG)" policies--

2436:

A "comprehensive solution" would mean one that acknowledges the proliferation of "allegations of apartheid" articles as a phenomenon, and codifies basic rules and standards about how to deal with them

1320:

I hate to come across as a pontificating prick, but I'm sure I often do. That's the teacher in me. :-) I can tolerate any honest mistake, be it careless editing, bad grammar, even padded sources. But

1285:

I might also say to you, Targeman, since you are new, you should also be aware that personal motivations for, say, adding content to WP are largely irrelevant—attacking those motivations is simply an

1133:

but the Israeli one are "fake". But in fact, it is a serious misrepresentation to claim that the Brazil article survived 'because of block-voting from the same people who are opposed to retention of

553:, which could be supplemented with further information from other sources. (I could add that I do not believe the other proposed changes will be the subject of much controvery, one way or the other.) 1248:

reduce freedom for one category of people. But it would be inaccurate to say its appartheid because its very aim is to make French children more alike not to separate them in different categories.

2464:

If a comprehensive approach like that fails, then I agree with ChrisO that the next step would be an RfC or an RfA in order to confront more directly the behavioral issues and gross violations of

1107:

has also survived AfD. It seems rather unusual to decide, a priori, that all "Allegations of X apartheid" are "fake", save of course, for the one article that the POV-pushers will not relent on.

920:

article. Thanks for pointing out a phenomenon I was unaware of, being a relative noob on Knowledge (XXG). Let me voice my thoughts here publicly because I think they could be of general interest.

96:

The mother article, that actually contains some informative and helpful entries already (as you note, I've also made a "segregation by country" template to replace the apartheid allegations one).

637:

having the matter clearly identified and stated in a neutral way is a manner for Knowledge (XXG) to appropriate the subject without swallowing the rotten rhetorics with it (For instance we have

2518:, but where one places it on this spectrum has absolutely no bearing on its notability. But you are probably right, a serious engagement with policy has been notably absent in the furore over 2632:

on all this. But I think that the Wikipedians with some sanity have long since decided to regard the articles on Israel as unsalvable. Pretty much like the Middle East itself, these articles

560:(or something similar), to address occasions and contexts in which Israeli policies have been explictly compared with the experience of apartheid in South Africa. Would this be reasonable? 47:

Beit Or, Urthogie, Sefringle, Carlossuarez46, Humus sapiens, Jayjg, IronDuke, ≈ jossi ≈, -tickle me, Taprobanus, Amoruso, ابو علي (Abu Ali), 6SJ7, altmany, Tewfik, Shuki, <<-armon-: -->

2288:. I believe this proposal has both merits and problems. On the merit side, I believe it would be a good idea to rename and refocus the Israel article to something more neutral - I'd suggest 2270:

While in disagreement with your position in this issue, I can't help but laugh out loud at your highly evocative, incredibly witty comment: "Wikipedians in Leclercs with UN markings". LOL!--

2094:. We can do this for every large country and with every sounding word like "nazi", "apartheid", "dictator", "fascism",... and it would be nonsense in all cases. That's why, for such topics, 2058:

please. I find very unfair to reduce our arguments to IDONTLIKEIT because of our origins (while we can otherwise say that the counter arguments like "delete as per jossie" etc. are quite

1945:. If it is verifiable, if it is well sourced, if it is notable, and a wikipedian collects it, then it stays. For example, I hate fascism with a passion, but this is not a reason to AfD 1787:

There is nothing encyclopediac about accusing somebody or some culture/country/religion of apartheid. It is all an attempt to push a POV. Anything legitimate belongs in an article like

1759:

If they claim that, it's basically extortion, the articles are only remotely related and it violates policy to use one article as a bargaining chip in the fate of other articles.

2688:

In other words, "you created this article about our country, we'll get revenge by creating parallel articles on your country". You can't get a much more explicit admission of a

1675:

Interesting: you are not French, you do not even speak French at good levels of fluency, yet you lecture a French person on the political positions of French magazines? The

2182:

Each article should be dealt with on its own merits. Saying all should be deleted or none is not a valid argument. In fact, agreeing that the others were created to make a

634:

I cannot think of a propaganda term so important that it'd warrant its own article, and "apartheid" related to Israel is certainly not on the top of the list. Furthermore,

582:

Actually, it's a much more appropriate title. More to the point, it deals with an analogy that's been been raised in a variety of contexts, and is entirely encyclopedic.

1405:, too. As I'm sure you know, women are banned from the Catholic Church's hierarchy. Apartheid in the sense of discrimination, as you seem to understand it, would apply to 950:

could change entrenched prejudice on both sides after 60 years of non-stop war? If you want to support Israel, don’t you think your energy might be better spent elsewhere?

228:

This is my favourite, now it's also about how Krazy Kim the Nork treats visiting imperialist lackey-dogs. Maybe there should also be a section about the limey ghettoes in

2090:- Aggregating every occurrence of such a metaphor from primaries sources (used for very different and unrelated aspects of french society and history) just constitute an 1907:

violations thats what they remain, the fate of the articles should be debated on each article individually, not as a grouping. The fact is that these articles are only

1137:.'. There are numerous editors who voted to Keep that article who have not commented on this article or the Israeli one. Please do not repeat such baseless allegations. 1021:

Targeman, there seems no good reason to "take off line" only one "Allegations of apartheid..." article; perhaps all of them should be taken "off line" at the same time.

602:

dream of a reason for having an article name with "Israel" and "Apartheid" -- unless the Knesset votes a law named "apartheid", which I daresay is unlikely to happen.

2599:

whether it is appropriate to use the word "apartheid" (designating de jure racial discrimination in South Africa) to discuss de facto racial discrimination in France

2461:

or idiosyncratic criteria (such as what sort of subject matter is acceptable or whether a given word can be used in article titles), but in terms of core policy.

2503: 1811: 1731: 1509: 1215: 870: 802: 479: 2669:: outside of Navel-land (a difficult enough concept to grasp I am sure), there are people doing delicate business like writing a Free, neutral encyclopedia. 1427:" is really ridiculous, and it does not contribute much to make it look like you have the slightest notion of what French way of life and institutions are. 644:

addressing the issue in the framework of a larger self-sustaining article is a way to refrain the debate from slipping, something to which is seems prone.

2166:

What you are suggesting is surrender to the dictates of the Zionists in order to get them to agree to stop creating ideotic articles in order to prove a

1043:-making emanating from the I-P article into other areas of the encyclopedia, such as triggered this AfD and many others. Makes eminent sense actually.-- 1052:

It doesn't make sense to begin a process where its decided from the get-go that we will keep only one of the allegations articles and trash the rest.--

1035:

relieve the pressure of high-stakes edit-warring and leveraged-deletion strategies upon the article itself (for the time being anyway), and conversely

773:@Malik: Thank for you for your zionism and racism allegations! I think it would be natural for apartheid to be part of those more general ones!.... -- 447: 2219:

on the affair to make it clear that we are acting upon the state of the articles, and not upon the shameful actions of few bullies and their stooges.

2335:

It looks like the Zionists have won the battle to keep this page, but at the expense of loosing the war by alienating increasing numbers of people.

1531: 1370:: ridiculous. Another guy who doesn't know what he is talking about. You should travel and live in these countries a bit before saying such things. 222: 1091:

has already survived several afds and a concerted effort to have it deleted by other means. The other "Allegations ..." articles are by contrast

478:

If we are going to have a "global" discussion of the "apartheid" articles we can use the page that was created about a year ago for that purpose,

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With regards to Targeman's suggestion, I would happily revisit the title of the Israel article. I disagree with ChrisO that it could be renamed

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subject for which we have secondaries sources, rather than choosing the more catching inflammatory rant from an opinionated journalist. That is

1631:

as having a far-left opinion base is risible. I cannot take seriously after that comment. Certainly to the left, but "far left"? It is basically

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Bleh999, if we adopt the title of "Allegations of apartheid" for any country where some sort of discrimination exists, we would have to have

541:

I agree that Victor's proposal is a good place to start. For my part, I would have no objection to merging some of the current content from

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As for what kind of vote/arbitration/procedure is applicable in such cases, I'm happy to shut up and let experienced editors decide. :-) --

2369:

Article is nominated by some passerby, editors focussed on that country rally and argue the article is a patent joke, the apartheid gang

2743: 2709: 2696: 2673: 2619: 2578: 2558: 2536: 2492: 2472: 2405: 2352: 2339: 2330: 2321: 2305: 2274: 2263: 2243: 2196: 2174: 2170:. I say once again let's keep these articles, in order to discredit their creatores and defenders and to expose their dishonest methods. 2150: 2046: 2027: 2009: 1996: 1982: 1916: 1895: 1885: 1867: 1858: 1846: 1807: 1754: 1742: 1720: 1703: 1662: 1643: 1621: 1573: 1564: 1554: 1492: 1468: 1455: 1441: 1431: 1413: 1384: 1374: 1362: 1342: 1302: 1261: 1194: 1141: 1127: 1111: 1099: 1082: 1073: 1056: 1047: 1025: 1016: 1001: 902: 877: 851: 828: 818: 777: 750: 746: 717: 682: 660: 648: 629: 616: 606: 586: 577: 564: 527: 513: 500: 486: 467: 454: 435: 413: 404: 362: 340: 323: 314: 303: 293: 279: 1934: 1523: 1116: 1104: 109: 1355: 1277: 2510:

is notable. Simply put, with regards to the concept of "Israeli apartheid," the spectrum of legitimacy to illegitimacy runs from

1750:

Well, it's the people that voted "keep" that said "OK to delete French Apartheid if all Apatheid articles are deleted", not me.--

1534:

etc. These editors had not shown any previous interest in affairs in these countries, and created these new articles to prove a

184: 2681: 2519: 2187: 1539: 1519: 1515: 1225:(in reality, of course, blacks were less "equals" than whites). In South Africa, blacks had less RIGHTS than whites IN THE LAW. 1134: 1120: 1088: 1062: 542: 428: 242: 131: 2317:? This shakes my faith in Knowledge (XXG)'s self-correcting mechanism to the core. Looks like Stephen Colbert was right. Bye. -- 1560:

Or the interested (intelligent) reader might recognize that every major country is accused of apartheid by some famous people.--

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that even if we take the dimmest view of the analogy, say, Jay's – that it's a mere epithet – then it's still notable, just as

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articles deletion). Remember the example ? if we collect every press articles talking about "USA + fascism" we can do such an

1244:

this because a girl of French ascendency converted to Islam will face the same problem than a religious Muslim Algerian girl)

1078:

Other articles have survived AFDs. Less than "alleged Israeli apartheid" because they've been here for only a couple weeks.--

934:

certainly have no problem with that. I understand the passion that drives you when you edit, it’s only human. However, do you

2344:

The reason they haven't been banned is because it's not the kind of thing for which individual admins can block someone (see

1950: 1402: 83: 2091: 443: 102: 2483:, no matter how notable or how well-documented that meme may be. It's akin to global warming deniers wanting to delete the 1065:

has already survived several afds and attempts at backdoor deletion, and (ii) all of the other articles in the series were

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whether the word "apartheid" is used in the mainstream, not as a metaphor or image, to describe the situation in France.

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indeed has an altermondialist viewpoint, but this is not contradictory with the fact that this magazine, as well as the

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How dare you call this as a Wall ? It a Fence ! You're pro-Palestinian ! No, it an apartheid wall, you're pro-Israeli !

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I don't agree with that approach. "Israeli apartheid analogy" is no different than allegations of Israeli apartheid.--

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twisting words: if noone can understand or formulate the problem anymore, their little industry won't be threatened ("

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question/discussion rubric so as not to foreclose that important aspect of the debate, I'll be happy to post there.--

767: 696: 2106: 550: 460: 392:) sources. I'll be glad to help, drop me a note any time. Furthermore, references from any Saudi paper or website 247: 2421:

words in the title, if that would satisfy those opposed to the article on ideological grounds. We could call it

1688: 1464:

as well, which specifically discusses those issues in neutral terms. This seems to me the much better approach.

727: 275:, its current structure lends itself quite nicely to it, but I didn't dare propose it... so I'm glad you do! (:-- 2502:

of the apartheid analogy in the Israeli case, since most people acknowledge global warming. I pointed out in a

2110: 2080:- All the content and the sources of the article about france are about unrelated randoms catching journalistic 2059: 1933:

this reminds me of the objections of what remains probably the most directly relevant of all of these articles:

351: 2138: 2114: 704: 669: 557: 333: 251: 90: 2551: 2105:- As stated by many "nationalists pov" frenchmen during the discussion, we can (should !) have articles about 1970: 1960: 1938: 2098:(this article has none) would make a difference, and should draw the line between a notable subject and pure 496:

solution might help here; however, the solution will have to be truly comprehensive for it to be acceptable.

763: 742: 546: 165: 1538:-- as bargaining chips. They tell us that they will agree to delete these articles if we agree to delete 1792: 641:, not "Operation Iraqi Freedom", in spite of the documents by the US Army beating the term over and over). 149: 2725: 1712:, you might want to have a glance at our own article, which screams "far-left" as clearly as it can (and 891: 1628: 1589: 738: 733: 712: 638: 622: 424: 268: 930:

From your edits it is pretty clear that you are ardent supporters of Israel/Jews/Zionism. That’s fine,

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if "they all go". Eventually, the "Brazilian", "Cuban", "French", and "Neutral" editors tire of the

2117:, etc., all with tons of serious secondary sources. So much for the nationalistic pride and blindness. 119:

that contains some interesting material. Merging those two has a clear potential for a decent article.

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rather than intellectual food). My arguments have nothing to do with my origins. It boils down to :

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It sets an unhealthy precedent to give in to ridiculous demands, if they created these articles as

1788: 1700: 1618: 1451:, you can't invent topics and write essays about them, as the creators of this article have done.-- 2425:

for example, or even something cumbersome but perhaps reassuringly decorous and hand-holding like

2124:"Allegation of xxx apartheid" for the very same motivations (so much for the nationalistic focus). 1942: 1119:

survived afd largely because of block-voting from the same people who are opposed to retention of

783:

Tewfik, I agree with Victor's point about WP not being Amnesty International, but my objection to

332:

I suggest that we start a big discussion about all of these articles on someone's talk page. like

59:, I think it would be an error to do so. They would only metastase to new nooks and crannies like 2702: 2693: 2555: 2489: 2349: 2302: 1258: 1138: 1108: 2689: 2612: 2465: 2454: 2450: 2345: 2183: 2167: 2073:

segregating policies (there's no such policies in France, and the article don't pretends so) in

1992:

in good faith (and I believe the proposals above were made in good faith, but still misguided)

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think that it serves any good to export the chaos of the Middle East to an encyclopedia? Do you

2373:, helped by editors that cast a casual glance blinded by the blizzard of sources, but offer to 805:, but I do not even agree with the framing assumptions of the question you've posed there. It 2692:

violation than that. This is plainly going to require an RfC and an RfA. Watch this space. --

1311:

Thanks for your welcome message :-). What took you so long? I've been around for 2 months! ;-)

806: 722: 2446: 1783: 770:. What's important is that the name neutral enough to be agreeable to the general community. 762:@Mackan: There will never be an agreeable name for all. Some will always wish it'd be called 737:, (many of which are far more obscure than accusations that Israel is an apartheid state). — 2402: 2043: 2006: 1864: 1751: 1659: 1013: 774: 680: 626: 451: 290: 276: 2629: 2442: 2216: 1569:

Will you two stop for a second and mind the people trying to make a neutral encyclopedia ?

2680:

David, the bottom line is that a clique of pro-Israel editors who don't like the existing

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using people attempting to solve the overall problem for their petty, punctual interest

2511: 2484: 2418: 1928::While I do not share your level of vitriol, and while I do not accuse people of doing 116: 2635:

are full of people who hate each other, or have come to hate each other over the time;

2574:, and it has only primary sources or no sources at all, I'm going to post it at AfD.-- 2399: 1949:, even tho it is basically propaganda for a fascist party. As I have said before, the 1636: 2740: 2318: 2271: 1979: 1892: 1843: 1709: 1640: 1561: 1522:

deleted they set about creating a series of articles on allegations of apartheid in

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from scratch if they're ever to be resurrected. At least, that's my personal opinion.

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relieve Knowledge (XXG) from the constant spillover effect of willful disruption and

998: 899: 874: 755:@Tewfik: That's too comprehensive. Knowledge (XXG) is not Amnesty International. And 657: 613: 583: 574: 561: 524: 410: 401: 337: 311: 255: 229: 668:

the rest of the encyclopaedia. Perhaps maintaining something along the lines of the

2595:

I do not quite get it how this discussion on Israel is relevant. We're discussing:

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a new country with a significant number of english wikipedians gets added we get

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magazine with, let's say, far-left views. I suspect that they are often right on

1240:

About the "headscarf law", it should not be considered as a sign of appartheid.

2575: 2533: 2469: 2204:. I'd like to make a few comments regarding the "Strong oppose" comments above: 2084:

about how there is some "urban apartheid" (sic) or "quasi-apartheid" (sic), etc.

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I’m calling it a day. I’ll be back tomorrow. See you guys, and shalom/salaam. --

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exporting their shit to others and attempt to use them for their petty points.

1855: 1655: 1022: 898:, I think this is innapropiate place to have such a wide ranging discussion.-- 506: 497: 464: 396:

be considered reputable or independent, I think that doesn't need explaining.

2732:, I think this is inappropriate place to have such a wide ranging discussion. 1617:

out of place to list the LCR in an article "Center right parties in France".

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etc., are definitely very much to the left of the current position of the

809:. It assumes that the articles grouped together without consensus in the 965: 1514:

We can not put all the apartheid articles in the same box. First we had

1447:

sourcing/notability policy issue, not a what's-fair type of issue. Per

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bring information to our readers so that they can decide for themselves

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or something similar - there are no Israelis living in the Gaza Strip.

2365:

You can believe I feel the same; as I said earlier in the discussion,

1941:. I don't care if it insults and offends three quarters of the world, 2515: 2507: 208:

Racial segregation in the United States#Comparaisons with apartheid

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himself for mediation. After all, this whole fantastic project is

2326:

I too wish I hadn't got involved here, what a mess this page is.

2398:. As Rama says, the real world needs to send the White Leclercs! 672:

entry for discussion of the term would be a good middle ground.

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they do not want any discussion of the Israel apartheid analogy

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from French ascendancy). It was not a racial riot. Not at all.

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Segregation_in_Israel#Comparisons_with_south_african_apartheid

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Segregation_in_Israel#Comparisons_with_south_african_apartheid

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Moi aussi. I cannot think of a less objectionable solution.--

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Urthogie, I see your signpost inviting us to discuss over at

2724:

Since there is already a centralized discussion for this at

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the inhabitants think that they are the centre of the world;

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of the concerted effort to have it deleted by other means.

890:

Since there is alreade a centralized discussion for this at

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as per the suggestion of Gedefr 15:35, 19 July 2007 (UTC) --

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I find this to be an excellent suggestion. Congratulations.

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could be in the future if it ceased to be a battleground.--

916:. I followed G-Dett’s advice and I hade a good look at the 423:

debate about them. So, there should be a section in like

35:

did so with the proviso that they could accept a deletion

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their problems cannot really be solved through diplomacy;

2563:

Exactly. If I wake up tomorrow and read in the Lebanese

1778:, Sefringle. Finally, some straight talk from your camp: 2453:), etc., as well as relevant behavioral guidelines like 1587:

A number are by academics, and some are French sources;

2686: 2054:

about us thanks to Fox news ",...) but let's focus on

267:

I thought of this, that maybe it should be split into

41:

I will not make pithy comments on their... hrm, anyway

2737:(just in case people missed it the first time around) 2427:

Controversial analogy between Israel and South Africa

2415:

Segregation in Israel and the Palestinian territories

2290:

Segregation in Israel and the Palestinian territories

2215:"giving in" to such behaviour, you can always open a 1826:

all articles about “allegations of apartheid in XXX”;

1425:

there is no doubt an institutionalized discrimination

2522:, and we may well need to approach this differently. 2381:, and the article stays, continuing to increase the 556:

I would also propose that we create a page entitled

2628:I hope someone will have the guts to launch a huge 2367:*sob* Vhy, oh vhy can't eweryone yust get along?... 2069:as precise meaning and definition. It's related to 1699:the French mainstream. This is basic common sense. 1031:understand it rightly, the idea is that this would 1010:*sob* Vhy, oh vhy can't eweryone yust get along?... 1832:the Isreali article to something less outrageous; 2385:background. I must say I admire their skills at 1510:Knowledge (XXG):Centralized discussion/Apartheid 1216:Knowledge (XXG):Centralized discussion/Apartheid 871:Knowledge (XXG):Centralized discussion/Apartheid 803:Knowledge (XXG):Centralized discussion/Apartheid 480:Knowledge (XXG):Centralized discussion/Apartheid 946:could help Israel in any way? Do you think any 374:. I strongly oppose using the word "apartheid" 2591:What is this debate about Israel and Zionists? 1356:Allegations of apartheid in the European union 1278:Allegations of Jewish Control of World Finance 2441:. It would basically be a rearticulation of 150:French rule in Algeria#Hegemony of the Colons 8: 354:ultimatum after another, and use a spurious 1716:article is well-documented, for a change). 358:to consolidate and enforce their demands.-- 2038:Is it possible not to like an article and 1354:maybe we could have larger article called 18:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Articles for deletion 1969:votes here are invalid because they are 1683:group, or other magazines such as PLPL, 223:Allegations of tourist apartheid in Cuba 39:all article in the series were deleted ( 2120:- I stated several times that I oppose 1403:Allegations of apartheid in the Vatican 448:Segregation in the Occupied Territories 273:Segregation in the Occupied Territories 1462:Social situation in the French suburbs 1423:, I am sorry, but saying things like " 1190:Couldn't have said it better myself.-- 869:Please everyone, lets discuss this at 409:P.S. Victor's proposal is excellent.-- 192:Allegations of Saudi Arabian apartheid 154:Social situation in the French suburbs 2498:herring/strawman arguments about the 2468:that have precipitated this crisis.-- 2042:have valid reason for its deletion?-- 1483:There are no laws, nor even official 1255:I hope these precisions can help... 1123:. I stand by my previous comments. 319:Which does not even exist as a myth. 160:. The current article would become a 7: 1329:would provoke my personal wrath. ;-) 61:Apartheid allegations against France 31:Allmost all of the users that voted 2294:oppose the article's subject matter 1407:every country that has ever existed 811:"Allegations of Apartheid" template 718:The Protocols of the Elders of Zion 78:I made some dummies to illustrate: 1935:Allegations of Brazilian apartheid 1117:Allegations of Brazilian apartheid 1105:Allegations of Brazilian apartheid 918:Allegations of apartheid in Israel 174:Allegations of Jordanian apartheid 110:Allegations of Brazilian apartheid 24: 2572:Allegations of Lebanese apartheid 1836:Re-think, re-source, and re-write 759:is not a slur like apartheid is. 431:should be merged and neutralized. 203:Allegations of American apartheid 2682:Allegations of Israeli apartheid 2520:Allegations of Israeli apartheid 2188:Allegations of Israeli apartheid 1609:, but they also have a specific 1540:Allegations of Israeli apartheid 1520:Allegations of Israeli apartheid 1516:Allegations of Israeli apartheid 1135:Allegations of Israeli Apartheid 1121:Allegations of Israeli Apartheid 1089:Allegations of Israeli Apartheid 1063:Allegations of Israeli Apartheid 1061:... until you consider that (i) 862: 785:Human Rights in Israel-Palestine 543:Allegations of Israeli Apartheid 429:Allegations of Israeli apartheid 243:Allegations of Israeli apartheid 132:Allegations of Chinese apartheid 2730:Allegations of French apartheid 2439:in keeping with basic WP policy 2423:"Israeli apartheid" controversy 2021:Allegations of French apartheid 1508:I have copied my comments from 896:Allegations of French apartheid 768:baby-killing suicide towelheads 289:Please do leave some comments-- 145:Allegations of French apartheid 2625:And they acknowledge it, also. 1951:Law of unintended consequences 697:Zionism and racism allegations 383:academic writing. You'll find 1: 1817:Now we may be going somewhere 1650:You mean to say, "we are for 709:Zionist Occupation Government 356:infobox/"navigation template" 166:Segregation by country#France 1582:A few facts about the debate 1437:this amounts to 'apartheid' 925:Dear Urthogie & friends, 701:And you are lynching Negroes 551:Segregation in the West Bank 461:Segregation in the West Bank 459:The second would have to be 442:Here are dummy proposals for 248:Segregation in the West Bank 2728:and this is for the AfD of 1965:In fact, almost all of the 1691:, especially in the era of 1460:Bleh, be sure to check out 894:and this is for the AfD of 545:into new articles entitled 185:Segregation in Saudi Arabia 158:2005 civil unrest in France 148:should be split up between 2759: 2718:Inappropriate use of AfD 2 2111:Colonial history of France 2107:Social exclusion in France 1213: 948:article on Knowledge (XXG) 2744:13:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC) 2710:09:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC) 2697:08:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC) 2674:07:11, 22 July 2007 (UTC) 2620:04:48, 22 July 2007 (UTC) 2579:20:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 2559:18:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 2537:15:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 2493:14:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 2473:14:30, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 2406:13:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 2353:12:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 2340:13:20, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 2331:11:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 2322:11:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 2306:08:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 2275:09:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 2264:08:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 2244:13:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 2197:07:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 2175:06:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 2151:09:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 2139:Allegation of USA fascism 2115:Discriminations in France 2047:09:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 2028:11:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 2010:09:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 1997:08:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 1983:06:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 1917:05:20, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 1896:03:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 1886:03:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 1868:02:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 1859:02:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 1847:02:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 1808:02:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 1755:02:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 1743:00:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 1721:07:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC) 1704:04:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC) 1663:02:18, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 1644:00:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 1622:17:46, 20 July 2007 (UTC) 1574:16:58, 20 July 2007 (UTC) 1565:16:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC) 1555:13:26, 20 July 2007 (UTC) 1493:16:56, 20 July 2007 (UTC) 1469:13:58, 20 July 2007 (UTC) 1456:13:15, 20 July 2007 (UTC) 1442:12:21, 20 July 2007 (UTC) 1432:11:50, 20 July 2007 (UTC) 1414:11:30, 20 July 2007 (UTC) 1385:09:37, 20 July 2007 (UTC) 1375:07:48, 20 July 2007 (UTC) 1363:05:19, 20 July 2007 (UTC) 1343:11:18, 20 July 2007 (UTC) 1303:00:10, 20 July 2007 (UTC) 1262:23:39, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 1195:23:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 1142:23:10, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 1128:22:57, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 1112:22:32, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 1100:22:23, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 1083:22:15, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 1074:22:11, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 1057:21:39, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 1048:21:30, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 1026:21:09, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 1017:20:19, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 1002:19:22, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 903:09:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 878:20:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 852:05:21, 20 July 2007 (UTC) 829:21:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 819:20:41, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 778:20:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 751:19:35, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 728:The Cause of World Unrest 683:19:19, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 661:18:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 649:18:09, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 630:17:45, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 617:17:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 607:17:36, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 587:17:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 578:17:29, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 565:17:27, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 558:Israeli Apartheid Analogy 528:17:28, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 514:17:19, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 501:16:23, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 487:16:04, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 468:16:23, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 455:15:49, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 436:15:35, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 414:15:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 405:15:09, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 372:My (almost final) comment 363:15:08, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 341:15:03, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 334:User:Urthogie/allegations 324:15:00, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 315:14:58, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 304:14:54, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 294:14:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 280:15:20, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 2186:against the creation of 1637:verifiability, not truth 1368:Probably worse in France 955:Here is how I deal with 886:Inappropriate use of AfD 705:Blood libel against Jews 670:Allegations of apartheid 252:Discrimination in Israel 91:Allegations of apartheid 2389:. –- Yeah, this is the 1732:proposal by Victor falk 2387:disinformation warfare 1838:the article on Israel. 1793:Human rights in Israel 1173: 764:zionist apartheid pigs 547:Segregration in Israel 206:should be merged into 84:Segregation by country 2239:was worth keeping on. 1629:Le Monde Diplomatique 1599:Le Monde Diplomatique 1590:Le Monde Diplomatique 1168: 734:The International Jew 713:Rootless cosmopolitan 639:2003 invasion of Iraq 444:Segregation in Israel 427:where the content of 376:as an article's title 269:Segregation in Israel 103:Segregation in Brazil 75:disinformation wars. 53:Though I first voted 2654:" yadadi, yadada...) 2092:WP:Original research 1287:ad hominem tu quoque 1276:an article entitled 944:encyclopedia article 492:I certainly think a 476:Procedural proposal: 126:Segregation in China 1789:Criticism of Israel 1771:DRAWING TO A CLOSE? 1627:The description of 839:Discussion moved.-- 246:should be moved to 216:Tourist segregation 2644:Their tactics are 2133:(but would prefer 1087:The point is that 523:of thse articles? 58: 2738: 2371:defend their turf 2337:ابو علي (Abu Ali) 2286:Tentative support 2255:, most like with 2241:ابو علي (Abu Ali) 2223:ابو علي (Abu Ali) 2172:ابو علي (Abu Ali) 2096:secondary sources 1842:Who’s with me? -- 1552:ابو علي (Abu Ali) 883: 882: 807:begs the question 794:Human Rights in X 790:takes for granted 723:Jewish Bolshevism 254:(suggestion from 227: 196: 136: 114: 95: 54: 42: 2750: 2736: 2056:actual arguments 1943:we do not censor 1909:remotely related 1883: 1880: 1877: 1810:<UNQUOTE: --> 1805: 1802: 1799: 1689:Parti Socialiste 1300: 866: 865: 859: 849: 846: 843: 677: 219: 188: 128: 117:found an article 106: 87: 40: 2758: 2757: 2753: 2752: 2751: 2749: 2748: 2747: 2734: 2720: 2593: 2148:Benjamin.pineau 2146:to start with. 2060:WP:ALLORNOTHING 1947:Tricolour Flame 1881: 1878: 1875: 1812:quote from here 1803: 1800: 1797: 1773: 1735: 1658:", don't you?-- 1633:altermondialist 1584: 1298: 1218: 1008:Moi aussi. a+. 910: 888: 863: 847: 844: 841: 675: 352:WP:ALLORNOTHING 142:The content of 29: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 2756: 2754: 2735: 2722: 2719: 2716: 2715: 2714: 2713: 2712: 2677: 2676: 2662: 2661: 2660: 2659: 2658: 2655: 2648: 2642: 2639: 2636: 2626: 2617:David.Monniaux 2604: 2603: 2600: 2592: 2589: 2588: 2587: 2586: 2585: 2584: 2583: 2582: 2581: 2552:WP:NOTCENSORED 2542: 2541: 2540: 2539: 2526: 2525: 2524: 2523: 2512:global warming 2485:global warming 2419:well-poisoning 2411: 2410: 2409: 2408: 2360: 2359: 2358: 2357: 2356: 2355: 2342: 2308: 2282: 2281: 2280: 2279: 2278: 2277: 2267: 2266: 2249: 2248: 2247: 2246: 2229: 2228: 2227: 2226: 2220: 2199: 2177: 2158: 2157: 2156: 2155: 2154: 2153: 2127: 2126: 2125: 2118: 2103: 2088: 2085: 2078: 2051: 2050: 2049: 2035: 2034: 2033: 2032: 2031: 2030: 2013: 2012: 2000: 1999: 1986: 1985: 1971:WP:IDONTLIKEIT 1961:WP:IDONTLIKEIT 1939:WP:IDONTLIKEIT 1920: 1919: 1898: 1888: 1870: 1861: 1840: 1839: 1833: 1827: 1781:<QUOTE: --> 1772: 1769: 1768: 1767: 1766: 1765: 1764: 1763: 1734: 1729: 1728: 1727: 1726: 1725: 1724: 1723: 1701:David.Monniaux 1696: 1693:Ségolène Royal 1670: 1669: 1668: 1667: 1666: 1665: 1619:David.Monniaux 1583: 1580: 1579: 1578: 1577: 1576: 1506: 1505: 1504: 1503: 1502: 1501: 1500: 1499: 1498: 1497: 1496: 1495: 1481: 1458: 1418: 1417: 1416: 1392: 1391: 1390: 1389: 1388: 1387: 1348: 1347: 1346: 1345: 1333: 1332: 1331: 1330: 1318: 1313: 1312: 1306: 1305: 1292: 1291: 1282: 1281: 1272: 1271: 1266: 1212: 1211: 1210: 1209: 1208: 1207: 1206: 1205: 1204: 1203: 1202: 1201: 1200: 1199: 1198: 1197: 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1900: 1841: 1835: 1829: 1823: 1816: 1815: 1780: 1775: 1774: 1736: 1713: 1684: 1676: 1615: 1610: 1606: 1602: 1598: 1596: 1592: 1586: 1585: 1548: 1544: 1513: 1507: 1484: 1477: 1424: 1406: 1367: 1351: 1326: 1321: 1265: 1257: 1254: 1250: 1246: 1242: 1239: 1235: 1231: 1227: 1223: 1219: 1169: 1092: 1036: 1032: 989: 956: 947: 943: 939: 935: 931: 913: 892:WP:APARTHEID 889: 789: 772: 761: 754: 732: 726: 716: 693: 673: 538: 520: 493: 475: 474: 420: 397: 393: 389: 384: 379: 375: 371: 288: 241: 221: 214: 201: 190: 183: 178:segregation. 172: 161: 143: 130: 124: 108: 101: 89: 82: 77: 71: 67: 65: 55: 52: 46: 45: 36: 32: 30: 27:A Consensus? 2504:recent post 2403:Victor falk 2383:white noise 2044:Victor falk 2007:Victor falk 1865:Victor falk 1752:Victor falk 1708:Yes, also, 1660:Victor falk 1593:for example 1014:Victor falk 986:Jimbo Wales 775:Victor falk 757:segregation 627:Victor falk 452:Victor falk 291:Victor falk 277:Victor falk 234:Costa Brava 43:). To wit: 2701:Godspeed, 2615:big time. 2566:Daily Star 2500:legitimacy 2396:truthiness 2071:officially 1656:truthiness 1485:statistics 1372:Poppypetty 1322:deliberate 1214:See also: 621:I suggest 398:Conclusion 2391:wikiality 2379:stalemate 2311:Well guys 2298:denialist 2082:metaphors 2067:Apartheid 1685:Le Plan B 1652:wikiality 970:Theocracy 796:paradigm. 505:Frankly, 385:many more 2741:Cerejota 2690:WP:POINT 2613:WP:POINT 2466:WP:POINT 2455:WP:POINT 2451:WP:UNDUE 2346:WP:BLOCK 2319:Targeman 2272:Cerejota 2168:WP:POINT 1980:Cerejota 1930:WP:POINT 1905:WP:POINT 1893:Mackan79 1854:I agree 1844:Targeman 1710:Cerejota 1641:Cerejota 1611:rhetoric 1562:Urthogie 1536:WP:POINT 1466:Mackan79 1411:Targeman 1340:Targeman 1299:IronDuke 1125:CJCurrie 1097:CJCurrie 1080:Urthogie 1071:CJCurrie 1067:WP:POINT 1054:Urthogie 1041:WP:POINT 999:Targeman 966:Religion 940:honestly 914:Me again 908:Proposal 900:Cerejota 875:Urthogie 747:contribs 658:Mackan79 614:CJCurrie 584:CJCurrie 575:Urthogie 562:CJCurrie 539:Response 525:MartinDK 411:Targeman 402:Targeman 390:on topic 338:Urthogie 312:Urthogie 162:redirect 72:REDIRECT 66:I think 2447:WP:NPOV 2328:Bleh999 2257:Bleh999 2208:Bleh999 2202:Support 2131:support 2077:(only). 2025:Bleh999 1994:Bleh999 1914:Bleh999 1873:name.-- 1784:WP:NPOV 1761:Bleh999 1740:Bleh999 1603:opinion 1474:Bleh999 1439:Bleh999 1421:Bleh999 1382:Bleh999 1360:Bleh999 1352:Comment 962:Atheism 421:genuine 2703:ChrisO 2694:ChrisO 2630:WP:RFA 2576:G-Dett 2556:ChrisO 2534:G-Dett 2516:nigger 2508:nigger 2490:ChrisO 2470:G-Dett 2459:ad hoc 2449:(esp. 2443:WP:NOR 2350:ChrisO 2315:banned 2303:ChrisO 2217:WP:RFA 2180:Oppose 1967:delete 1830:Rename 1824:Delete 1776:Thanks 1654:, not 1601:is an 1597:Fact: 1528:France 1524:Brazil 1478:please 1453:G-Dett 1259:Jeemde 1192:G-Dett 1139:Isarig 1109:Isarig 1045:G-Dett 1023:Jayjg 936:really 816:G-Dett 731:, and 676:Tewfik 507:Jayjg 498:Jayjg 465:Jayjg 433:Gedefr 394:cannot 360:G-Dett 156:, and 68:RENAME 56:DELETE 33:"keep" 2212:users 2184:point 2129:So I 2100:WP:OR 2040:still 1926:Reply 1856:Corpx 1791:, or 1681:ATTAC 1677:Diplo 1607:facts 1449:WP:OR 992:baby. 220:(now: 189:(now: 129:(now: 107:(now: 88:(now: 48:: --> 16:< 2707:Rama 2671:Rama 2429:. 2375:cede 2261:Rama 1795:. -- 1718:Rama 1714:that 1571:Rama 1532:Cuba 1490:Rama 1429:Rama 1409:. -- 1327:that 1093:part 826:6SJ7 743:Talk 699:and 646:Rama 604:Rama 549:and 511:Rama 484:6SJ7 446:and 321:Rama 301:Rama 271:and 250:and 232:and 70:and 2514:to 2135:all 2122:all 1882:gle 1879:rin 1876:Sef 1804:gle 1801:rin 1798:Sef 1639:.-- 1530:, 1290:in. 990:his 873:.-- 848:gle 845:rin 842:Sef 766:or 521:all 380:any 378:in 164:to 2739:-- 2705:. 2445:, 2401:-- 2253:AA 2195:— 2193:AA 2113:, 2109:, 2065:- 1963:. 1526:, 1476:, 1037:b) 1033:a) 1012:-- 968:, 964:, 957:my 749:) 745:| 725:, 721:, 715:, 711:, 707:, 450:-- 336:-- 152:, 115:I 37:if 2102:. 1695:. 932:I 741:( 258:) 236:? 225:) 195:) 135:) 113:) 94:) 49:.

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Knowledge (XXG)

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