1065:, and is quite extensive. There's a limit to discussion, there comes a point where you have to say: "this is what we have, do you support it"? And if the community decides against it, which is indeed possible, it's back to the drawing board. Now if I were the mistrustful kind I could easily say that you want to have a "discussion" rather than a vote so that opposition can be neatly glossed over in favour of the vast number of bytes that debate over the minutiae of the proposal is sure to generate. The deciding 'crat, or Jumbo, or whoever, will see ninety subheading over the use of the definite article in paragraph 3, and a couple of lonely scattered opposition statements which could possibly amount to a majority, but which are more easily ignored. You are engineering the process to ensure the proposal passes, and admit so. You say this will not pass if a vote is held (an "ultimatum" is the euphemism you use), but is that not the point? If the final version agreed upon by the folks at that page is not satisfactory, it should fail. If anything, this should encourage the folks over at the Draft discussion page to keep the vote off until there's very broad consensus on the shape of the final proposal. I also agree with MacDui, how can it be held to have passed after nothing more than a discussion? Any decision reached on the grounds of a discussion will most likely swiftly be overturned in favour of a vote (or nothing at all), because you simply don't have universal support and the opponents of the proposal aren't going to take your pseudo-gerrymandering lying down. —
2516:
find the needed 10. However, that is not the only possibility. The other, which is what I think we have been contemplating all along, is that, simply, the nomination cannot be certified to go forward for a community !vote on day 7 if, for example, there are only 9 signatures. Let's say, for example, that on the first of those 7 days of a failed nomination, 2 editors started the process by signing. Then, over the next 6 days, 7 more editors signed, for a total of 9 signatures on day 7, and it does not get certified. Now, let's say the next day (the 8th), a 10th editor arrives and signs. In this case, editors 1 and 2 must refresh their signatures, while editors 3 through 10 already have valid signatures, and the nomination is now valid to be certified. On the other hand, if it takes a month for a 10th editor to show up, then, indeed, all 10 editors have to start over. Is there a problem with that, or with similar scenarios? I don't see it. I don't see why we would have to make that change.
871:
participated in by a small minority of editors. Even the previous discussion which brought CDA to the forefront only had 57 editors voting for/against the status quo. The WP:CDA proposal has even less editors involved. While I would like to see CDA go through, I think bypassing a broader community acceptance could backfire. What we have as evidence to support CDA being adopted if 44 editors voting against the status quo (no de-admin process), and 26 people supporting the first draft of the CDA proposal. I fail to see that as enough consensus to adopt the protocol outright. The current discussion allows no discussion of those who currently do not support the proposal. If CDA were to go to RfC, I think it would be more than support/oppose, as usual, weighing the strengths of the arguments to achieve consensus. I still think this proposal is under the radar for many editors, and I think the
Admininstrator Recall RfC and the CDA draft RfC are suffering from
1424:- In early January (current flexible target is Jan. 5, 2010), should it be reasonably widely agreed that the draft Cda proposal is complete and polished, the Rfc period begins, with wide notification and hopeful participation by a goodly number of Wikipedians. An Rfc should hopefully make it clear 1) If there is consensus that the Cda is needed at all and 2) If it is, the pros and cons of this Cda proposal. If needed, an Rfc can be extended, but a three week maximum should be considered. At a date in February to be determined, a decision should be made to !vote, or go back to the drafting process. This requires a !vote to have a !vote, if there is no clear consensus either way. I also feel
182:
the system or otherwise use it as a disruption. The entire process is subject to bureaucrat oversight, and they can shut it down if it is judged to be without merit, or have no chance. As I see it, a Cda is the last step in a measured chain of events that currently exists up to ArbCom. If ArbCom is split or conflicted and can not, or will not, take what the community may see as appropriate action against an administrator(s) (or even feels a Cda, if enacted, is more appropriate), a Cda then allows the community a final chance to express their will, via a supermajority !vote (exact percentages are being discussed, but 70% - as in an Rfa - is currently a ballpark figure to take the mop away).
1525:: "It's been discussed to death several times for at least half a year. There are at least three older proposals that in essence are the same as this one, only somewhat more complex. We can discuss for another half year, or we can go for a test run for a chance." The same is true here. There are existing proposals in this case, and they are either less fully formed (with vague handwaving on the details such as how actual requests are structured) or full of bicycle shed elements (such as laundry lists of why people should be de-sysopped). Hence the reason that I presented WP:CDA at WP:RFAR as
1133:(see my statement below) in which we see if the proposed final draft Cda flies with a goodly chunk of the community. If not, we either continue tinkering with what we have, or go back to the drawing board, but if it appears to have substantial support, then and only then should there be a straight up or down !vote some time in Feb. - March, and it should be, as in an Rfa or the proposed Cda itself, at least a considerable sized 70%-type vote to pass. If it is in a grey area, 'crats make the final call on that too. Fairly unprecedented, I admit, but it's what it would take, as I see it.
2326:') -- This is why clarifications are needed. In the sub-section, a provision is made for blocked editors to discuss in the CDA if the admin blocked them or it's related, etc. However it's not clear how this will happen. We don't want blocked editors reading this and then evading their block to discuss, as they'll get in more trouble. Clarity is key, i.e. blocked editors who believed they're affected by the CDA should request an unblock in the usual way making clear they wish to participate in the CDA. That way an admin can unblock with the condition they only discuss in the CDA.
956:
happy, and if we have 15 substantial elements, everyone who opposes even one of them will likely oppose if you force them to by giving them the ultimatum of "support or oppose", "up or down". This will not pass by giving ultimatums. It will pass if the skeptics are allowed to be skeptical, and if the process is acknowledged to be subject to further refinement in the future. Approval by crats or Jimbo implies that further changes would need likewise approval, again, it's adding to that ultimatum factor which will lead people to oppose. Please consider this carefully.
2193:- Whilst it's been revised since yesterday, I'm still confused about it. My understanding was that if they don't get 10 sigs by 10 qualified editors within 7 days then it's dead in the water. Thus why this extra language about re-signing? Shouldn't they simply to do the nomination all over again should they find the one or two editors they needed, whether it's a few days or few weeks later? If not, then it should be clarified, as again, this is not currently straight forward except maybe to those who drafted the provision.
2820:
pretty loud and clear about that. Instead, such editors should have to be able to convince 10 "eligible" editors to take up their case, and if they can't, then no CDA. But those editors should be able to !vote and comment, so others can see and evaluate their concerns, and the closing
Bureaucrat can decide whether or not to count their !vote. I do not know what to change, and I would agree with MacDui, above, that we should use the earlier wording, unless someone can explain more clearly why we should not.
801:
above. On the one hand, it's helpful to get a draft of the next stage underway, so that it will be worked into shape by the time the need comes, just so long as it is understood to be a draft until then, which it is. On the other hand, it can be a problem to be revising it as the main discussion goes along, because the main discussion is, well, still going along. Taken together, that brings me firmly down on the side of not knowing what to suggest! Sorry I can't be more helpful. --
2264:- I think it could be revised. While, we shouldn't step on Arb's toes (thus leave that bit as is), for community restrictions we should allow people to go ahead, since it's the community placed and oversees these restrictions. If a statement is made in the nomination or poll by an uninvolved admin or crat that the editor is under such restrictions, then it's up to the community at large to weigh the evidence. We shouldn't make this a closed process.
134:
de-sysop process. This consensus being established, the only thing left is to build consensus about the details of the process. I have no illusions that the 10 or so people here can build something that will satisfy the 200 or so people that may review the final RfC, which is why I'm explicitly opposed to anything vote-like. We need to be soliciting actual constructive feedback all the way through, including in the so-called final RfC...
2372:
2024:
proposal 1 to the actual RFC page, with a comment at the top that has a disclaimer that the RFC is a draft and not yet live, and a link to WT:CDA where we can discuss it and develop it further. We can then work on that in the normal wiki way. The rest of the page is mostly a to-do list, that can surely be integrated somewhere like the top of WT:CDA in a little box or something.
703:
process isn't immutable. Consensus can change. Our process to design the process needs to make people feel safe trying something they might be a little doubtful of, comfortable in the fact that we can always go fix any problems later as they arise. As well, a big vote forces people to "approve or reject" the entire process, hanging their reputation on something unproven.
1438:- My view: a functional community de-admin process is desired by a significant portion of the Knowledge editorship, and that if a final draft is commented on, and enacted, it will make our online community a stronger, happier place to work in. Let's continue to examine the ways to do this. My thanks to all who are reading/commenting/and drafting.
971:
and that CDA was the most favoured process and thus the most likely to succeed. I don't interpret it as a community decision to enact CDA subject to a few tweaks. Re the "approval by crats or Jimbo" I think it is clear that the main idea is to get the principle approved - hopefully not a difficult task if there is indeed a clear consensus to proceed.
646:
proposed along the lines of - " I can support this, but only if it does not apply to ex-ArbCom members whose user names ends in a vowel" followed by mini- !votes, comments and general side-tracks? It would help me understand if you could provide an alternative text of some kind - or are you suggesting we don't provide "oppose/support" sub-sections?
2914:
2572:
2488:
2345:
2315:
2203:
2173:
1603:
605:
subject to a big community vote in that way. They are all developed through an iterative process of developing and building consensus. That's what we need to do here. We'll work out our little consensuses, then widen the scope out to the community, and go through the same iterative process again based on specific suggestions and concerns.
398:, a fact which always has struck me as quite important. Unfortunately, he appears to have been afk for a number of weeks now. I just left a message on his talk page asking his opinion of the ongoing and overall process here. As to 'fixing' ArbCom, or reducing their powers, that's a can o' worms that I won't go near. Best wishes,
1418:(Request for comment) of two to three weeks, with wide notification for the Rfc and the possible eventual !vote. I see the latter taking place before spring 2010, unless it is quite clear that, despite the efforts made to draft a superior proposal for Cda, that it should go back to the drawing board. To recap this:
1372:- As I note elsewhere, it's my belief that, if put in place as a process, an actual Cda (Community de-adminship) would only be enacted as a last resort by a community unsatisfied or frustrated by actions taken, or not taken, after every step in the currently available process to deal with deeply questioned
2387:
found in the guidance, but would there be a way to make it clearer, i.e. since it's a community process admins who have decided to take a wiki-break and not offer a statement in their defence do so at their own risk? I'd just hate to see the inevitable passing of a CDA, only to have the admin and his
1483:
knowing that no proposal can please everyone. When a sizeable majority of us working on it judge it really and truly complete, then I see a final discussion before the community of a couple weeks, kind of a 'dummy check', to see if the proposed Cda is ready for a final !vote. If it is, hold it! If
1264:
This page, which I did recommend against in the first place, and still doubt the value of, is discussing what to do once the draft process is finalized and we are ready to move into a community-wide RfC. It's obvious that the context was lost or unclear, and people are confused about what's going on
1209:
I'm afraid I totally disagree with the idea that some have expressed that there exists a current consensus in favour of this proposal or indeed of any reform. The number of people involved in the original discussions is tiny compared to the number of people affected and who would probably have a view
1171:
Perhaps so, but I see us as on target. As we get closer to closure, I expect some stiffening resistance, which is perfectly fine. So far this has been a remarkably civil process, with thought and care being taken to address all concerns. I understand your wish to avoid a final !vote, but we invite
970:
Again, you have lost me here. Unfortunately I completely agree with you that it is going to be very difficult to achieve success, but I don't see how can it be deemed to "pass" if it is not "vote-like". My interpretation of the earlier poll is that there was strong consensus in favour of a procedure
800:
MacDui dropped me a note asking what I think about this. Actually, I've been watching this page and discussion from the start, but simply decided not to get into it yet, until now. (I've got a huge amount of other stuff on my plate at the moment, ugh.) I could go either way on what has been discussed
645:
I'm aware of the issue, but is not likely that people are going to respond by saying "oppose" or 'support" anyway? Given the creative nature of the culture if it is not clearly spelled out that the request is essentially for a "yes/no" answer is this not going to result in another 20 variations being
489:
Well, then maybe the thing to do would be to change those things that have achieved enough consensus to have been archived in the discussion. That would be reasonable. But I would caution against tweaking anything else yet. (My point is that, where we are currently asking people to support or oppose,
2819:
Two points in green color about nominators. I'm not sure what to say. My sense is that the community feels pretty strongly that they want that editors who are "sanctioned" in whatever way should not be in a position to initiate the process against an administrator as "payback". The feedback has been
1460:
A few thoughts about that (not entirely thought through by me). (1) I expect that, in early
January, after we finish getting the input we are getting now, we will need some time to polish up the draft proposal in response to that input. It won't (shouldn't!) be simply a matter of counting !votes. We
718:
Interesting suggestion. I'm not saying you are wrong, and I `m not especially attached to the existing wording, but I'd certainly like to see some more thoughts on this from others before we proceed. There's plenty of time at present. My main concern is that in the absence of a firm decision by the
1431:
If an !vote has been decided on, then again wide community notification is obviously required. A two or three week !vote should be considered, with bureaucrat final oversight in a case of a grey-zone range !vote, as they do in Rfa's. If consensus is clear to adopt the Cda, or if the bureaucrat(s)
870:
On these grounds, I would suggest that an RfC is started once the proposal is "finalized". There seems to be consensus that there needs to be a de-adminship process, and the proposal in question did receive conditional majority support. However, the fact remains that the current discussion is being
504:
That's fine with me. We don't need to recklessly change it. We should make it much easier to find though. I suggest that we reduce the total number of pages that this conversation is sprawled across as well, and archive old conversations with pointers to where current conversation is happening.
208:
beaurocracy and process, not more. I do not admit or deny there is a problem with desysopping "bad" admins - but adding yet another super-complex layer to an already super-bloated process is not an answer. I feel that if people here are frustrated with ArbCom's repeated unwillingness to do anything
74:
To figure out what needs to be done in order to optimise the RfC wording. When it looks like it is in decent shape it can go onto the draft RfC project page. The protocols may be blindingly obvious to those with plenty of experience of them, but this is a learning curve for me. The above is simply
2827:
I was most concerned about community imposed sanctions. If a notification or declaration is made that they're under such restrictions, it should be up to the community to weigh the relevance it bears on the nomination, not a admin or 'crat. Same thing goes for limiting their discussion to the talk
2775:
Yes, but that's assuming people who read the page actually read all of it. No reason not to summarise the position clearly. Obviously repetition should be avoided, but not where it's wanted for the sake of clarity. When DR is required say it, and we should avoid using other terms that may not make
2308:
I'm glad the current wording is clearer than yesterday, as it sounded as if blocked editors should somehow evade their blocks. We may wish to clarify that they may be unblocked at uninvolved admin discretion to take part in discussion. I'm unsure if limiting their participation to the talk page of
2023:
So it looks like the two points we disagree on are the disposition of the project page that goes with this talk page, and whether to integrate changes into the guide yet or not. Lets just talk about the first one for now, I know we've disagreed on that since the beginning. I propose that we move
302:
I understand that you disagree, and I respect your right to do so. As for examples, even of past cases and not current ones, I decline to do so because I do not want to start what some will term name-calling. Let's say there are no 'problem admins'. Then this Cda process, if enacted, won't hurt,
261:
It should, but often doesn't, or is perceived as not, though I see recent signs of change which bode well. (Also, we have a new board incoming.) Still, a working Cda provides 'civilian oversight', if you will, on the very real problem of tenured admins who abuse their powers in various, long-term
181:
Tan, as currently written, the proposed Cda can only start after all other attempts at mediation, etc. have failed, and ten nominators ("in good standing") have initiated one. A recent wording change proposed by Avi (which I !voted for yesterday) even allows penalties for those attempting to game
133:
The point is, whatever we wind up with at the end of the RfC will reflect consensus, if we do it right. It is not useful to think of it as "CDA", since it may work entirely differently from what the original CDA proposal was. We have consensus and a mandate for some kind of new, community based,
3000:
Well actually I think without the addition it was clearer that validity of the nomination wasn't contingent on recognition of receipt by the admin. Maybe the wording could be more direct, in that this is a community process, which only takes place after failed attempts at proper DR, and therefore
2515:
Stale signatures. This strikes me as something where we could choose between either of two approaches. One would be, as NJA says, to say that, if there are fewer than 10 signatures after 7 days, then the nomination process is aborted, and editors have to start over from scratch if they eventually
1313:
It may be good to do something like this, as long we make it clear that the process isn't "blessed" or "officially approved"... it's definitely open for later amendment if some part of it isn't working out. One of my main concerns above was about improperly giving the community the idea that the
1115:
But it shouldn't be that fluid, it should be a big finalised deal. You can't hold a vote on a changing proposal, and you likewise can't establish consensus through debate either. Just because I supported at 03:14 doesn't mean I'll support 2.72 minutes later when a new change has been implemented.
1100:
to say "OK, we can try it, even though my serious concerns remain". If we force them to "support or oppose" it through a vote-like process, they will be forced to oppose. We can amend this process based on hypothetical scenarios all day. Until we get something out there we won't know where the
604:
be a vote, or anything vote-like, though. Votes work when you are determining consensus for little straightforward elements. It would be counterproductive to consensus to hold a vote on the big overall proposal after it is drafted. I don't think any successful process or proposal has ever been
578:
Secondly, I'm in favour of simplifying where possible but I don't understand what you mean. When you say there is "no need to "vote" yet again" what is that you think the RfC should be discussing? I don't think it can just be an announcement that WP:CDA has been agreed and that henceforth it will
96:
What would "closure" even mean? It's not like there's a decision to be made at the end. We just start using the process that we decided upon. If people want to shape that process, they should speak now. If you envision some kind of "final up or down vote" then I don't see any point in that at
2652:
I still would ask for more clarity if at all possible, e.g. "as noted above in the "Dispute resolution or other discussions" heading, you must have done DR" (or whatever wording that makes the same point). I know it's a bit repetitive, but it would reduce any ambiguity that may exist for readers
1036:
Basically yes, however we should actively discourage bolded !votes as well with some sort of reminder that it's a discussion, not a vote. We should make it clear that it is the last stop before going live, but we should also make it clear that the process can easily change if there is community
702:
Remember, a big vote communicates the wrong message, that this process will be somehow set in stone as a "ratified" process, and that it will be hard to change. The more that people perceive that the process is going to be immutable, the more instruction creep and exceptions they will want. The
557:
and remove all references to it. Once the proposal for the RFC is drafted, there's no need to "vote" yet again. RFC means "request for comments", and it should be just that, a request for people to comment on the proposal. If a consensus builds for further changes to the proposal, we can make
1461:
will need to go through a process of editing, in the usual manner of editing, to come up with a presentable document, and that will take some time. (2) I'm not convinced that we need another RfC to determine that we, then, need to have a !vote. I kind of think they should be a single process. --
955:
How did the discussion jump from "we should definitely have the RFC for wider community feedback" to "should go up for a majority vote" per
Judasfax? I still strongly advise against anything even "vote-like" when it comes to the final RfC; I believe that will kill this. We can't make everyone
740:
You'll probably need to go canvass a few people from the other page to get some more opinions, I don't think anyone is looking at this page. I don't really mind if you selectively canvass a few that you prefer, I don't think it would be appropriate to spam everyone with this discussion at this
311:
about 'Option 0' (to do nothing), the vote was 44-13 against, and I think that the 77% in favor of doing something indicates that a healthy percentage feels something should - even must - be done. This transparent, open process, which has been given reasonable publicity to stakeholders, is the
1287:
If you look, a lot of the arbcom candidates have answers that, in general, some sort of community desysop would be good. I'd say that before anything is put up for full community discussion, we should make sure it has the support of as many arbs and near-arbs as possible. Which is to say--
816:
I also got the note from Ben. I had not read this project page and as someone following this issue semi-closely and commenting/voting when it seemed proper, I think there are a number of points of interest that it is good to raise. Also, Gigs has some reasonable points regarding the numbers
2951:
Could be a quick note in the validity sub-section, ie an admin taking a conveniently timed wiki break will not perclude this community based process from taking place. Or something a lot less sarcastic! As you might be able to tell, it's time for me to sign off (getting irritable), but great
474:
Trypto, seems to be a common theme here, but I disagree. We handle a moving target just fine on article talk pages for articles that are changing orders of magnitude faster than this process guidance document will. Why are we "saving up" all these changes instead of just making them as the
2239:
under the heading "Dispute resolution or other discussions" that substantial DR must have taken place. Thus the statements do not match up. I'd remove the persuasion bit and make clear that other DR processes must have taken place. It's completely confusing and slightly contradicting as
831:'s Option 4 that 'crat participation is crucial in my view, since they would be gaining important powers and making final decisions, and other calls. I think that if January comes and they have remained silent, COI concerns or no, then we are possibly going to flounder in moving forward.
2050:
I think that will work although it will need a prominent set of directions at the top of the "actual RFC page" to make it clear that the associated discussion page is about refining WP:CDA so that the proposed RfC can be formulated and that discussing the wording of the RFC is at...
419:
Jusda, taking a look at the old CDA proposal, it's pretty out of step with where we currently are. Why aren't we actually using the wiki tools to develop the text? Collaborative development of text is what a wiki was designed for. I think this is a major source of confusion.
719:
community at large to support CDA (as opposed to the general principle) that the 'crats might simply refuse to enact any de-sysop that emerged. Nonetheless, would you move the above to the "project page" - I've created a section for "Proposal 2" - by all means change the name.
2214:- I slightly see a reason to list RFA (even though I think it's redundant here as it's linked to and mentioned twice, i.e. once in 'what this process is' and also 'appeal'). However what does bot right approvals have to do with anything? I'd personally remove the section.
307:'problem admins', now, or in the future of Knowledge, the Cda process provides a public court of last resort, with multiple safeguards and Bureaucrat oversight. In other words, a fully-vetted Cda process can't hurt, and might help. And of those expressing an opinion at
817:
actually involved in the process. But I keep coming back to how little support there is for doing nothing about establishiing a reasonable method of dealing with de-admining those who misuse the tools, or in other ways abuse their authority with threats or disruptions.
1410:. So my proposal for a majority !vote should not be taken as a call for 50% +1, but as a consensus !vote per an Rfa, with this variation: a percentage as low as 60% or even a little less (depending on comments, arguments and bureaucrat overview) should be in fact
826:
I think the discussion so far is mostly reasonable and measured, and I like the direction and timetable. One thing I'm disturbed about is the lack of 'crat discussion, with only two (to my knowledge) speaking up at all. I have said ever since I first voted for
1014:
Am I right in thinking that the only difference of substance between the two is that there are no sub-section headers for "support/oppose/neutral" in your version? If so, I don't mind removing them in the spirit of "Polling_is_not_a_substitute_for_discussion".
2828:
page, relevance should be determined by the community as this is a community process and a community imposed restriction, and the decision shouldn't be made by a distinct sub-section of the editing community. This might be something to note in the RFC.
262:
ways. I don't see the process as overly complex. It's a reverse Rfa, when all's said and done. If an admin gets out of line, and there is no relief of the issue from the existing structure, then the community has a final option via this proposed Cda.
1216:
they want to proceed. That was always the plan, and I think that's exactly what we need to do. This discussion is not about implementing something that's already been decided in principle - it's about developing and polishing a clear proposal that can
1387:
A Cda is a kind of 'safety valve' allowing a grass-roots action to take errant admins before the same forum that gave them the title and buttons to begin with. It is the essense of accountability, as I see it. This reasoning is why I call for
1210:
if prompted and presented with a clear proposal. All the original discussion did was give a mandate to develop a new proposal - which is what we're doing now. That new proposal should then be put to the community to discuss and decide whether
2523:
Why even bother with all these scenarios? If they don't meet the requirements by day 7 then it's over and do it again. If this isn't agreed here that's fine, though I'll mention it a the request for comment so we can see what to do with it.
452:
I looked into the origins of Uncle G's proposal, and was impressed by thoughts on his talk page from back in
October, shortly before he stopped editing. I think they merit discussion, and I'll put them at the bottom in a new topic heading.
2599:
Persuasion before nomination. You are absolutely correct, that was an unrecognized contradiction. I think the easiest way to fix it is to delete "You should" at the beginning of that sentence, and just start it with "Attempt..". Does that
996:. That discussion should establish a rough consensus. It should do that through straight discussion of any contentious points, not through voting on the overall proposal. Again I feel I should refer you and and other new readers to
890:
I agree very much with
Angryapathy. My understanding has always been that, after the discussion now, a polished proposal will go before the community. Only then, and not before, will it be determined whether or not to make it policy.
2872:
when the CDA is materially related to that block, in which case an uninvolved administrator, on request, shall unblock the editor for the sole purpose of participation in the CDA)", or maybe a better wording if someone can think of
2559:
Bots approval. Not a big deal to me, probably Uncle G was thinking about making people understand his reasoning and we just always left it there, but I'd be perfectly happy to either delete the bots approval line or just delete the
836:
The other danger: we are going to drown in a sea of words. But lets keep talking with the goal of clarity and progress towards a needed goal of a workable reverse Rfa. Short version, keep the page, but let's not get distracted.
905:
Agree - assuming it's hammered into ship-shape condition by consensus discussion, the final proposal should go up for a majority vote. As a further safeguard I suggest that the proposal be subject to 'crat and/or Jimbo review.
1332:
on the CDA draft page, where there's a list of the pages where messages have been left inviting feedback. I myself put such a message at the ArbCom talk page already. Anything overlooked, by all means, let's un-overlook it!
1432:
determine that consensus has been reached, the
Community de-adminship becomes effective at that time. As Gigs rightly notes, it should be made clear that if some part(s) are clearly out of whack, they can be amended.
1841:
It is not archival, but a suggestion as to the next step. In the absence of any other concrete proposal it is where we will go next. Archiving it is therefore premature. To put it another way, without this, what's to
1294:
IF they don't support a plan, the plan will probably need to be changed before it could get consensus. Alternative, if they do support a plan, it will be all the easier for others to feel comfortable with it also.
2356:
Currently it's been left out of the draft I read, but should there be a push to re-add it, my comments on why it's completely redundant and would only serve to make the process reclusive and ambiguous are noted
2863:
How do blocked editors comment without evading their block? Once again, you are absolutely right, and that went right past us. We need to fix that. Change "(unless blocked by the administrator being reviewed
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consensus to change it after the fact. Putting emphasis on the fact that it's not a fixed process, that it's subject to further refinement and future changes in consensus will lower the bar for acceptance.
119:. If the consensus of the RFC is not to implement, then it shouldn't be implemented. Discussions to date have been very useful, but it really needs a clear consensus in favour of this before it goes "live".
203:
Well, I hate to jump in to a quagmire to which I have not been personally invited (oh, wait, I was...), but I couldn't disagree more with this entire proposal, strategy, whathaveyou. Metawikipedia needs
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I don't want to steamroll or TLDR the objections, I want to convince objectors that this isn't some finalized big deal, it's something that can be changed based on consensus. I want objectors to be
2133:- Seems to be completely redundant, or it could be tied into other existing bits of the guidance to avoid confusion. An easy fix, though not serious enough for me to resist the draft if not fixed.
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In other words, there is established consensus that the system is broken, and that it must be fixed. The way we are going about it seems best to me, not perfect, but the best we can come up with:
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It was a loaded question; I knew what your (only possible) answer would be. My opinion is to fix the current process (ArbCom), or take them out of the loop altogether. Or, realize that there will
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If anyone screams, remind them that we did get a pretty solid consensus for some kind of de-admin process, and that all processes are open to new suggestions if they can build consensus for it.
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The RFC will gather feedback on the proposal we come up with. What did you think it would be discussing? It won't be an announcement, it'll be a request for comments. It should explicitly
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Crats and Arbcom should review. I don't think an unelected Jimbo can overturn directly, but I agree that his review would almost certainly inspire an overturn, and this is a good thing. --
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This doesn't hafta be true, but I currently have no idea what true community consensus will support, but the arb- and near-arb population is probably the best approximation we can get.
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Once you present something to the community, whether it be for a vote or a debate, the community needs to be assured they know just what the hell they're voting on or debating about. —
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Not discussed, but I can foresee it happening -- what about admins who decide to go on wiki-break after they realise it's heading towards a CDA? Essentially it doesn't run foul of
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Would you be opposed to a lightweight community de-sysop process? Is it the complexity of the current proposal that bothers you, or the entire idea of consensus based desysop?
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I have no interest in dealing with this page in my space, thanks. If consensus here is to wipe the page, wipe it. I'm currently mulling this whole thing over, actually.
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375:, which is where the primary discussion is, currently. There, the first section, called "Quick links", will link you directly to the draft language. I hope that helps. --
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failed recognition of receipt by the admin (for whatever reason) will not effect the validity of the process. See what I'm getting at, or am I muddling it all up?
1635:- I suggest deleting this page, or jusdafax can move it into his userspace to use for reference, and blank the redirect. Or just mark it as archival and leave it.
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those changes. We already have consensus for some form of recall process, so there is no need to put that up again. Voting is a very counterproductive endeavor.
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Agree that we need to have one place to carry on from. I think this page has served its purpose and is getting too big. I'd say archive it as a subpage, myself.
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I'd suggest as soon as the elections are over we try to get explicit feedback on the draft. To do it now might overly 'politicize' the discussion, of course. --
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First of all, this seems to me to be the value of this page - it is there to iron out what exactly it is that needs to be done and how the RfC is to be phrased.
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I disagree with your premise. Can you point out some examples of the "very real problem of tenured admins who abuse their powers in various, long-term ways"?
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I don't see a problem. If 10 editors who are not under restrictions can't be found, why would we want it to ahead as the following "Tip for editors" says.
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Well, let me know what you want to do. This proposed course of action is just a suggestion, but I really think we need to consolidate things down a lot.
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Pardon me for being the FNG to this conversation, but I've read through a few times and I feel like I'm missing a salient point... how would this process
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all. If there are things people don't like about the process we come up with, then let them build or demonstrate consensus to change it after the fact.
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Well attempt doesn't mean must, thus if they must use dispute resolution then say so there too. To me, dispute resolution is persuasion in itself. No?
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To clarify: My take is that we wind up the draft Cda in the next few weeks (I have recently reminded interested parties of this) and in
January have a
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We've got something like 8 different places where this has been discussed. Here is my suggestion to simplify discussion which has become sprawled:
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an idea. Clearly there are alternatives, but do you think it is credible that a proposal of this nature can simply be closed by the RfC nominator?
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input would be of great importance and interest, and agree that ArbCom comment from the newly elected members obviously would be helpful as well.
1566:"We can amend this process based on hypothetical scenarios all day. Until we get something out there we won't know where the real problems lie."
686:
Put a short history of the process thus far on the talk page so that they can see that this isn't just something someone made up out of the blue.
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If you don't mind my replying, I would suggest taking it slow about revising the draft until the current comment period is over (early
January).
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there's no point in bothering the whole community until the people who best represent the community's views are, more or less, on board.
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That's me, I originally wrote this talk section, and others started inserting comments within, which may have created the confusion. --
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mates claim it was an unfair process as he went on break right before the CDA and wasn't able to make a statement in his own defence.
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Wikibreaks. I see the point. There would be nothing wrong with adding wording to clarify that. What would that wording be, and where?
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ArbCom members, who in many if not most cases will have already been involved in the issues covered by an Cda. As many here know, a
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Speedy close. Again, absolutely correct. Change "speedily closed" to "speedily closed by an uninvolved
Administrator or Bureaucrat."
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Correct me if I am wrong, but the discussion here seems to be about two things: When the discussion on tweaking WP:CDA is finished,
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consensus is established? If this is some strategy so that no one knows quite what the current proposal is, I'd say it's working!
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2141:- Could use some thought on whether the current wording is clear enough. Not enough of a concern for me to resist the policy.
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of any value whatsoever (a frustration I sometimes have), then the answer is to fix ArbCom, not create yet another timesink.
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2125:- Ambiguous and in need of clarification, possibly some discussion needed to remedy. Unlikely to support unless clarified.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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To be as brief as possible: If early January comes and the Cda proposal is clearly not complete, we should keep polishing
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I've noticed some editors having questions about what, exactly, is the wording of what is being discussed. Please go to:
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Account more than 3 months: You are absolutely correct. Let's change "more than" to either "at least" or "a minimum of".
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process is immutable because we went through some elaborate approval process different from normal consensus building.
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separate sub-section. Couldn't the paragraph state: "repeated frivolous nominations may be considered disruptive. See
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I outlined a course of action above in the bulleted points above. It calls for another community-wide advertised RfC
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Collapsed: Issues have either been addressed, or are being discussed in other more active sections of this talk page
1892:
Yes - I wonder if a "history of this proposal" navbox might be useful tho' (or maybe a history section of a navbox).
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has been sufficient to enable the procedure to be implemented, or it will be closed as "No consensus" or similar.
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First of all thanks for these suggestions. It's a complex discussion and ways to simplify it are very welcome.
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because with the safeguards in place, it will never be used and can't be abused. If, on the other hand, there
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I don't think we even have a single proposed policy yet, so we certainly don't have a consensus for it. --
2235:: It says in the last sentence of the 1st paragrapgh that 'you should attempt persuasion', however it's said
2117:- Needs simple clarification, likely without much discussion to remedy. I couldn't support unless clarified.
1406:- It's my own understanding that, as Gigs notes above, Knowledge is not a democracy. It is (or should be) a
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Ditto what Gigs said! Yes, let's do this, but at the same time not pretending this is authorised in any way.
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Good point(er) Trypto. Tan, I should also note that the original proposal, 'Option 4', was actually written
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when the CDA is materially related to that block)" to "(unless blocked by the administrator being reviewed
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three months old (i.e. 90 days) or (91+ days)? I know to those who drafted this it's clear, but not to me.
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The last two sentences about speedy closes: who does it? How does this bit on speedy closes tie in with
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sense, ie 'persuasion'. If we want DR to be attempted then say it clearly and try not to muddle it up.
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Avoid mini straw polling unless it's not clear from plain discussion where consensus lies on an issue.
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drama without doing so. And I think your reminder that the Cda process, if enacted, (to paraphrase)
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2941:"Good standing". Yes, I think we agree that we had better not go back to the earlier flawed wording.
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I self-reverted it, then. At this point, I'd need clearer guidance on what, if anything, to do. --
438:, and it's too difficult for editors to comment on a proposal that is changing as they comment. --
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There's a lot to react to, here. I'll try to address every point, in the same order as above.
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Integrate any suggestions that were indicated by closed straw polls on the RFC talk page into
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Integrate any suggestions that were indicated by closed straw polls on the RFC talk page into
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Will do in due course. In the meantime, here is the sort of input that needs to be addressed.
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I agree, and, for that reason, am not exactly sure what is being discussed on this talk. --
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be background static of editors pissed at admins and constantly accusing them of abuse.
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sub-section of the policy guidance for more details". (or something along them lines)?
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161:? Can anyone pissed at an admin start a "RfD", "CDA", whatever the acronym will be...?
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2454:'At least' is (to me) the least ambiguous of how long they needed to be registered.
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point, though you may want to add a link to it on the RFC development page as well.
1973:. Add the nav box to it. Not sure what kind of discussion should go on this page.
1683:. Add the nav box to it. Not sure what kind of discussion should go on this page.
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as a possible consensus/supermajority. I propose that a vote take place after an
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Thoughts on ArbCom, Bureaucrats, Rfc, !Voting, and a polished Cda proposal in 2010
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The finished proposal should be approved by the community through another RfC, or,
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This would be an unprecedented requirement. What's the point of this page anyway?
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to have the latitude to oversee and make final decisions as needed in a Cda, and
1593:- Use for meta discussion on the proposal, like what we have done on this page.
1529:, with a concrete implementation and without such bicycle sheds to argue over.
1777:- Use for meta discussion on the proposal, like what we have done on this page.
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Put the RFC tag on the talk page with a general note that comment is requested.
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A reverse Rfa with built-in safeguards against gaming the system either way.
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2361:. As of now, its inclusion would be a reason for me to reject the policy.
1834:- I suggest deleting this page...or just mark it as archival and leave it.
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Knowledge:Polling_is_not_a_substitute_for_discussion#Policy_and_guidelines
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I know you've probably seen this before, but it might help to go re-read
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Both, if that makes sense. The process should already exist via ArbCom.
1802:, leaving redirect. Further high level meta discussion would occur at
1625:, leaving redirect. Further high level meta discussion would occur at
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I agree with the general idea but think it would make more sense to:
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archive this page at Knowledge talk:Community de-adminship/Archive 2
2442:(Please sign each point, so we can all contribute to this section!)
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So, as I understand it, you simply want to do what is going on at
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Allowed to participation in discussion! (under the 'discussion
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recreate a short summary or the contents of this page at WT:CDA
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Suggest a redirect to WT:CDA for the duration of this process
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Uncle G, the CDA proposal's originator, on getting it adopted
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will have to be then notified to complete the de-adminship.
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I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly - I think there
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can be amended or even removed if it clearly does not work
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to feature prominently at the top of relevant discussions
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to feature prominently at the top of relevant discussions
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it's unfair to change what they've already !voted on.) --
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a clear decision to be made - whether to implement a CDA
2260:"Nominators Not subject to ArbCom or other restrictions"
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That diff is an excellent example of why voting is bad.
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not, either fold it or go back to drafting it further.
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It already says this higher up. Why bother repeating?
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for a Knowledge process is unprecedented in general.
1055:, but, er... again? That discussion is advertised at
1380:, had been exhausted. It is more or less a reverse
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Strategy: Run it by the Elders and get endorsements
1000:. Ignore this guideline at this proposal's peril!
2181:"their account must be "more than three months old"
623:. It might say things in a better way than I can.
1832:Knowledge talk:Community de-adminship/RfC Strategy
1792:Knowledge talk:Community de-adminship/RfC Strategy
1633:Knowledge talk:Community de-adminship/RfC Strategy
1615:Knowledge talk:Community de-adminship/RfC Strategy
2880:That wording you came up with is pretty spot on.
2153:wording as of 8.00 UTC, and here's what I think:
1517:As to adoption, I quote to you the wise words of
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866:The finished proposal should then be implemented.
1953:Knowledge:WikiProject_Administrator/Admin_Recall
1879:Knowledge:WikiProject_Administrator/Admin_Recall
1674:Knowledge:WikiProject_Administrator/Admin_Recall
1653:Knowledge:WikiProject_Administrator/Admin_Recall
927:I agree with that too, about Crats and Jimbo. --
309:Knowledge:WikiProject Administrator/Admin Recall
2653:unfamiliar with the structure of the guidance.
1053:Knowledge talk:Community de-adminship/Draft RfC
695:After a while, we just start using the process.
373:Knowledge talk:Community de-adminship/Draft RfC
1971:Knowledge talk:Guide to Community de-adminship
1908:Knowledge talk:Guide to Community de-adminship
1681:Knowledge talk:Guide to Community de-adminship
1663:Knowledge talk:Guide to Community de-adminship
1582:Suggestion on new navigation and consolidation
2638:Done (changed "You should" to "You must"). --
1513:To quote directly from the Uncle G talkpage:
555:Knowledge:Community de-adminship/RfC Strategy
8:
2352:Seems unlikely to be re-added at this stage.
672:Yes that is exactly what I'm suggesting.
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1544:I find this sobering, and invite comment.
1176:, will give a reasonable final safeguard.
1993:Knowledge:Guide to Community de-adminship
1962:Yes (or navbox suggestion per the above).
1905:Knowledge:Guide to Community de-adminship
1688:Knowledge:Guide to Community de-adminship
1660:Knowledge:Guide to Community de-adminship
26:Further discussion should be directed to
1822:change this page to a redirect to WT:CDA
676:Put the revised policy/procedure on the
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2983:Done, maybe, please check what I did
1859:Remove mention of WP:CDA RfC Strategy
1800:Wikipedia_talk:Community_de-adminship
1775:Wikipedia_talk:Community_de-adminship
1648:Remove mention of WP:CDA RfC Strategy
1623:Wikipedia_talk:Community_de-adminship
1598:Wikipedia_talk:Community_de-adminship
1591:Wikipedia_talk:Community_de-adminship
52:, a majority of whom must agree that
28:Knowledge talk:Community de-adminship
18:Knowledge talk:Community de-adminship
7:
1376:behavior, including (in most cases)
34:The following discussion is closed.
2306:In reference to them as nominators:
2002:Yes - but not until after Jan 4th.
48:Re closure by (say) a minimum of 3
2715:Clearer, but I still wonder about
24:
2297:the provisions on Blocked editors
519:Yes, I agree with all of that. --
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2079:The discussion above is closed.
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1120:what a crazy random happenstance
1069:what a crazy random happenstance
2579:(deleted the whole section). --
553:I think you should just delete
2385:the current 'validity' section
2379:Wording being discussed below.
1:
2068:20:41, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
2034:01:56, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
2019:20:19, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
1931:Add link to WP:CDA and WT:CDA
1868:No, as follows from the above
1760:02:49, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
1739:01:31, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
1725:01:24, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
1703:00:53, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
1667:Add link to WP:CDA and WT:CDA
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2414:10:51, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
2365:Admins who go on Wiki-break?
2288:15:12, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
2250:dedicated to speedy closure?
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1324:01:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
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951:00:53, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
937:00:16, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
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901:21:35, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
885:21:31, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
854:20:49, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
811:19:47, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
789:12:59, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
775:09:38, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
751:21:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
736:19:42, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
713:14:37, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
663:09:11, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
633:21:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
615:21:06, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
596:19:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
568:04:28, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
144:14:00, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
129:23:05, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
2309:CDA only is fair or needed.
1539:06:17, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
1527:a mechanism to actually use
1523:Knowledge:Proposed deletion
3085:
2368:
2341:
2088:Continued wording concerns
1596:Clean up and move-archive
692:Advertise it sufficiently.
1881:and talk from the nav box
1655:and talk from the nav box
1422:A proposed rough timeline
1131:non-voting comment period
44:Original closure proposal
2338:Editors of good standing
2220:the 'before nominations
2191:the stale signatures bit
2081:Please do not modify it.
36:Please do not modify it.
436:WP:There is no deadline
2210:the related processes
1969:Archive contents of
1679:Archive contents of
1101:real problems lie.
1794:- I suggest moving
1617:- I suggest moving
1330:"publicity" section
1155:Big Design Up Front
2952:dialogue. Thanks.
1853:WPAdmin Navigation
1642:WPAdmin Navigation
37:
3071:
3070:
3055:Again, thanks. --
3024:
2975:
2903:
2851:
2799:
2746:
2676:
2630:
2547:
2477:
2411:
2183:- does this mean
2147:I've re-read the
2145:
2144:
1849:Edit the nav box
1638:Edit the nav box
312:result of that.
35:
3076:
3009:
2960:
2920:
2916:
2915:
2888:
2836:
2784:
2768:
2763:
2758:
2731:
2661:
2615:
2578:
2574:
2573:
2532:
2494:
2490:
2489:
2462:
2396:
2380:
2374:
2373:
2353:
2347:
2346:
2321:
2317:
2316:
2307:
2285:
2280:
2275:
2261:
2245:
2234:
2209:
2205:
2204:
2192:
2179:
2175:
2174:
2140:
2132:
2124:
2116:
2104:
2103:
2093:
2065:
2060:
2055:
2016:
2011:
2006:
1856:
1757:
1752:
1747:
1722:
1717:
1712:
1645:
1609:
1605:
1604:
1558:
1553:
1548:
1498:
1493:
1488:
1452:
1447:
1442:
1190:
1185:
1180:
1147:
1142:
1137:
1122:
1071:
1064:
1058:
1029:
1024:
1019:
985:
980:
975:
920:
915:
910:
851:
846:
841:
772:
767:
762:
733:
728:
723:
660:
655:
650:
593:
588:
583:
467:
462:
457:
412:
407:
402:
349:
343:
326:
321:
316:
295:
289:
276:
271:
266:
254:
248:
221:
215:
196:
191:
186:
173:
167:
89:
84:
79:
3084:
3083:
3079:
3078:
3077:
3075:
3074:
3073:
3072:
2913:
2911:
2766:
2761:
2756:
2571:
2569:
2487:
2485:
2422:
2381:
2378:
2376:
2371:
2354:
2351:
2349:
2344:
2335:
2314:
2312:
2305:
2283:
2278:
2273:
2259:
2243:
2237:in this section
2232:
2202:
2200:
2190:
2172:
2170:
2138:
2130:
2122:
2114:
2098:
2090:
2085:
2084:
2063:
2058:
2053:
2014:
2009:
2004:
1850:
1755:
1750:
1745:
1720:
1715:
1710:
1639:
1602:
1600:
1584:
1556:
1551:
1546:
1511:
1496:
1491:
1486:
1450:
1445:
1440:
1367:
1285:
1207:
1205:What consensus?
1188:
1183:
1178:
1145:
1140:
1135:
1118:
1067:
1062:
1056:
1027:
1022:
1017:
983:
978:
973:
918:
913:
908:
849:
844:
839:
770:
765:
760:
731:
726:
721:
658:
653:
648:
591:
586:
581:
551:
549:Further comment
465:
460:
455:
410:
405:
400:
347:
339:
324:
319:
314:
293:
285:
274:
269:
264:
252:
244:
219:
211:
194:
189:
184:
171:
163:
87:
82:
77:
46:
40:
22:
21:
20:
12:
11:
5:
3082:
3080:
3069:
3068:
3053:
3052:
3051:
3050:
3049:
3048:
3047:
3046:
3045:
3044:
3020:
3015:
3007:
2971:
2966:
2958:
2946:
2945:
2942:
2938:
2937:
2936:
2935:
2934:
2933:
2899:
2894:
2886:
2875:
2874:
2860:
2859:
2858:
2857:
2847:
2842:
2834:
2822:
2821:
2816:
2815:
2814:
2813:
2812:
2811:
2810:
2809:
2808:
2807:
2806:
2805:
2795:
2790:
2782:
2742:
2737:
2729:
2694:
2693:
2689:
2688:
2687:
2686:
2685:
2684:
2683:
2682:
2672:
2667:
2659:
2626:
2621:
2613:
2602:
2601:
2596:
2595:
2594:
2593:
2592:
2591:
2562:
2561:
2556:
2555:
2554:
2553:
2543:
2538:
2530:
2518:
2517:
2512:
2511:
2510:
2509:
2508:
2507:
2473:
2468:
2460:
2449:
2448:
2421:
2418:
2407:
2402:
2394:
2369:
2367:
2366:
2342:
2340:
2339:
2334:
2333:Other thoughts
2331:
2330:
2329:
2328:
2327:
2310:
2300:
2299:
2293:
2292:
2291:
2290:
2266:
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2254:
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2227:
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2216:
2215:
2197:
2196:
2195:
2194:
2188:
2165:
2164:
2143:
2142:
2135:
2134:
2127:
2126:
2119:
2118:
2111:
2110:
2100:
2099:
2096:
2091:
2089:
2086:
2078:
2077:
2076:
2075:
2074:
2073:
2072:
2071:
2070:
2041:
2040:
2039:
2038:
2037:
2036:
1997:
1996:
1988:
1987:
1986:
1985:
1984:
1983:
1975:
1974:
1966:
1965:
1964:
1963:
1957:
1956:
1948:
1947:
1946:
1945:
1944:
1943:
1935:
1934:
1933:
1932:
1926:
1925:
1924:
1923:
1922:
1921:
1913:
1912:
1911:
1910:
1898:
1897:
1896:
1895:
1894:
1893:
1885:
1884:
1883:
1882:
1872:
1871:
1870:
1869:
1863:
1862:
1861:
1860:
1846:
1845:
1844:
1843:
1836:
1835:
1828:
1827:
1826:
1825:
1824:
1823:
1820:
1817:
1808:
1807:
1788:
1787:
1786:
1785:
1779:
1778:
1769:
1767:
1766:
1765:
1764:
1763:
1762:
1692:
1691:
1684:
1677:
1670:
1669:
1668:
1665:
1656:
1649:
1636:
1630:
1612:
1611:
1610:
1583:
1580:
1579:
1578:
1521:, inventor of
1510:
1507:
1506:
1505:
1504:
1503:
1474:
1473:
1404:Moving forward
1366:
1363:
1362:
1361:
1360:
1359:
1326:
1284:
1281:
1280:
1279:
1278:
1277:
1248:
1221:be discussed.
1206:
1203:
1202:
1201:
1200:
1199:
1198:
1197:
1196:
1195:
1095:
1094:
1093:
1092:
1091:
1090:
1089:
1088:
1087:
1086:
1085:
1084:
1083:
1082:
1081:
1080:
1079:
1078:
1077:
1076:
868:
867:
864:
857:
856:
833:
832:
819:
818:
798:
797:
796:
795:
794:
793:
792:
791:
700:
699:
696:
693:
690:
687:
684:
681:
670:
669:
668:
667:
666:
665:
638:
637:
636:
635:
617:
575:
574:
550:
547:
546:
545:
544:
543:
542:
541:
540:
539:
538:
537:
536:
535:
534:
533:
532:
531:
369:
368:
367:
366:
365:
364:
363:
362:
361:
360:
359:
358:
357:
356:
355:
354:
155:
154:
153:
152:
151:
150:
149:
148:
147:
146:
45:
42:
41:
32:
31:
23:
15:
14:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
3081:
3067:
3066:
3062:
3058:
3043:
3039:
3035:
3031:
3030:
3029:
3028:
3023:
3021:
3018:
3016:
3014:
3011:
3008:
3006:
3003:
2999:
2998:
2997:
2993:
2989:
2985:
2982:
2981:
2980:
2979:
2974:
2972:
2969:
2967:
2965:
2962:
2959:
2957:
2954:
2950:
2949:
2948:
2947:
2943:
2940:
2939:
2932:
2928:
2924:
2919:
2910:
2909:
2908:
2907:
2902:
2900:
2897:
2895:
2893:
2890:
2887:
2885:
2882:
2879:
2878:
2877:
2876:
2871:
2867:
2862:
2861:
2856:
2855:
2850:
2848:
2845:
2843:
2841:
2838:
2835:
2833:
2830:
2826:
2825:
2824:
2823:
2818:
2817:
2804:
2803:
2798:
2796:
2793:
2791:
2789:
2786:
2783:
2781:
2778:
2774:
2773:
2772:
2769:
2764:
2759:
2753:
2752:
2751:
2750:
2745:
2743:
2740:
2738:
2736:
2733:
2730:
2728:
2725:
2722:
2718:
2714:
2713:
2712:
2708:
2704:
2700:
2699:
2698:
2697:
2696:
2695:
2691:
2690:
2681:
2680:
2675:
2673:
2670:
2668:
2666:
2663:
2660:
2658:
2655:
2651:
2650:
2649:
2645:
2641:
2637:
2636:
2635:
2634:
2629:
2627:
2624:
2622:
2620:
2617:
2614:
2612:
2609:
2606:
2605:
2604:
2603:
2598:
2597:
2590:
2586:
2582:
2577:
2568:
2567:
2566:
2565:
2564:
2563:
2558:
2557:
2552:
2551:
2546:
2544:
2541:
2539:
2537:
2534:
2531:
2529:
2526:
2522:
2521:
2520:
2519:
2514:
2513:
2506:
2502:
2498:
2493:
2484:
2483:
2482:
2481:
2476:
2474:
2471:
2469:
2467:
2464:
2461:
2459:
2456:
2453:
2452:
2451:
2450:
2446:
2445:
2444:
2443:
2439:
2438:
2434:
2430:
2425:
2419:
2417:
2416:
2415:
2410:
2408:
2405:
2403:
2401:
2398:
2395:
2393:
2390:
2386:
2364:
2363:
2362:
2360:
2337:
2336:
2332:
2325:
2320:
2311:
2304:
2303:
2302:
2301:
2298:
2295:
2294:
2289:
2286:
2281:
2276:
2270:
2269:
2268:
2267:
2263:
2256:
2255:
2249:
2242:
2238:
2231:
2230:
2229:
2228:
2225:
2223:
2218:
2217:
2213:
2208:
2199:
2198:
2189:
2186:
2182:
2178:
2169:
2168:
2167:
2166:
2162:
2161:
2156:
2155:
2154:
2152:
2151:
2137:
2136:
2129:
2128:
2121:
2120:
2113:
2112:
2109:
2106:
2105:
2102:
2101:
2094:
2087:
2082:
2069:
2066:
2061:
2056:
2049:
2048:
2047:
2046:
2045:
2044:
2043:
2042:
2035:
2031:
2027:
2022:
2021:
2020:
2017:
2012:
2007:
2001:
2000:
1999:
1998:
1994:
1990:
1989:
1981:
1980:
1979:
1978:
1977:
1976:
1972:
1968:
1967:
1961:
1960:
1959:
1958:
1954:
1950:
1949:
1941:
1940:
1939:
1938:
1937:
1936:
1930:
1929:
1928:
1927:
1919:
1918:
1917:
1916:
1915:
1914:
1909:
1906:
1902:
1901:
1900:
1899:
1891:
1890:
1889:
1888:
1887:
1886:
1880:
1876:
1875:
1874:
1873:
1867:
1866:
1865:
1864:
1858:
1857:
1854:
1848:
1847:
1840:
1839:
1838:
1837:
1833:
1830:
1829:
1821:
1818:
1815:
1814:
1812:
1811:
1810:
1809:
1805:
1801:
1797:
1793:
1790:
1789:
1783:
1782:
1781:
1780:
1776:
1773:
1772:
1771:
1761:
1758:
1753:
1748:
1742:
1741:
1740:
1736:
1732:
1728:
1727:
1726:
1723:
1718:
1713:
1707:
1706:
1705:
1704:
1700:
1696:
1689:
1685:
1682:
1678:
1675:
1671:
1666:
1664:
1661:
1657:
1654:
1650:
1647:
1646:
1643:
1637:
1634:
1631:
1628:
1624:
1620:
1616:
1613:
1608:
1599:
1595:
1594:
1592:
1589:
1588:
1587:
1581:
1577:
1573:
1569:
1565:
1564:
1563:
1562:
1559:
1554:
1549:
1542:
1541:
1540:
1536:
1532:
1526:
1524:
1520:
1514:
1502:
1499:
1494:
1489:
1482:
1481:within reason
1478:
1477:
1476:
1475:
1472:
1468:
1464:
1459:
1458:
1457:
1456:
1453:
1448:
1443:
1437:
1433:
1429:
1427:
1423:
1419:
1417:
1413:
1409:
1405:
1401:
1399:
1395:
1391:
1385:
1383:
1379:
1375:
1374:administrator
1371:
1364:
1358:
1354:
1350:
1346:
1345:
1344:
1340:
1336:
1331:
1327:
1325:
1321:
1317:
1312:
1311:
1310:
1309:
1305:
1301:
1296:
1292:
1289:
1282:
1276:
1272:
1268:
1263:
1262:
1261:
1257:
1253:
1249:
1247:
1243:
1239:
1235:
1234:
1233:
1232:
1228:
1224:
1220:
1215:
1214:
1204:
1194:
1191:
1186:
1181:
1175:
1170:
1169:
1168:
1164:
1160:
1156:
1153:
1152:
1151:
1148:
1143:
1138:
1132:
1128:
1127:
1126:
1123:
1121:
1114:
1113:
1112:
1108:
1104:
1099:
1075:
1072:
1070:
1061:
1054:
1050:
1049:
1048:
1044:
1040:
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1034:
1033:
1030:
1025:
1020:
1013:
1012:
1011:
1007:
1003:
999:
995:
991:
990:
989:
986:
981:
976:
969:
968:
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963:
959:
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953:
952:
948:
944:
940:
939:
938:
934:
930:
926:
925:
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921:
916:
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904:
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902:
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865:
862:
861:
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855:
852:
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842:
835:
834:
830:
825:
821:
820:
815:
814:
813:
812:
808:
804:
790:
786:
782:
778:
777:
776:
773:
768:
763:
757:
754:
753:
752:
748:
744:
739:
738:
737:
734:
729:
724:
717:
716:
715:
714:
710:
706:
697:
694:
691:
688:
685:
682:
679:
675:
674:
673:
664:
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656:
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644:
643:
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584:
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569:
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556:
548:
530:
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522:
518:
517:
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512:
508:
503:
502:
501:
497:
493:
488:
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486:
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478:
473:
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471:
468:
463:
458:
451:
450:
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433:
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431:
427:
423:
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397:
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389:
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2248:this section
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2176:
2158:Nominator's
2157:
2149:
2148:
2146:
2107:
2080:
1903:Add link to
1795:
1768:
1693:
1658:Add link to
1618:
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1543:
1528:
1516:
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1512:
1480:
1435:
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1430:
1421:
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1368:
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1286:
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1212:
1211:
1208:
1173:
1130:
1119:
1097:
1068:
993:
869:
858:
823:
799:
701:
671:
601:
579:operate....
552:
391:
370:
340:
334:
304:
286:
245:
212:
205:
164:
158:
156:
116:
112:
47:
33:
25:
2324:sub-section
2160:sub-section
1390:Bureaucrats
1300:Alecmconroy
1252:Alecmconroy
943:Alecmconroy
877:Angryapathy
392:by an admin
50:Bureaucrats
3057:Tryptofish
3034:Tryptofish
2988:Tryptofish
2923:Tryptofish
2703:Tryptofish
2640:Tryptofish
2581:Tryptofish
2497:Tryptofish
2429:Tryptofish
2375:Unresolved
2244:Last para:
1784:Fine by me
1463:Tryptofish
1436:Conclusion
1412:considered
1408:clueocracy
1335:Tryptofish
1238:Tryptofish
994:discussion
929:Tryptofish
893:Tryptofish
803:Tryptofish
758:. Cheers.
521:Tryptofish
492:Tryptofish
440:Tryptofish
377:Tryptofish
2420:Reactions
2262:provision
1951:Add link
1672:Add link
678:main page
54:consensus
2701:Done. --
2560:section.
2348:Resolved
2233:1st para
2185:at least
1842:discuss?
1798:page to
1621:page to
1519:Radiant!
1349:AndrewRT
1223:AndrewRT
206:far less
121:AndrewRT
2222:section
2212:section
1995:proper.
1877:Remove
1690:proper.
1651:Remove
1531:Uncle G
1426:Jimbo's
1398:Steward
873:WP:TLDR
829:Uncle G
396:Uncle G
2150:entire
2131:Purple
2123:Orange
1804:WT:CDA
1627:WT:CDA
1378:ArbCom
1265:here.
1213:or not
335:always
117:or not
2600:work?
2139:Green
1370:Intro
159:start
16:<
3061:talk
3038:talk
2992:talk
2986:. --
2927:talk
2921:. --
2918:Done
2873:one.
2721:this
2717:this
2707:talk
2644:talk
2585:talk
2576:Done
2501:talk
2495:. --
2492:Done
2433:talk
2359:here
2319:Done
2258:the
2207:Done
2177:Done
2030:talk
2026:Gigs
1796:this
1735:talk
1731:Gigs
1699:talk
1695:Gigs
1619:this
1607:Done
1572:talk
1568:Gigs
1535:talk
1467:talk
1384:.
1353:Talk
1339:talk
1320:talk
1316:Gigs
1304:talk
1271:talk
1267:Gigs
1256:talk
1242:talk
1227:Talk
1219:then
1163:talk
1159:Gigs
1107:talk
1103:Gigs
1098:able
1060:cent
1043:talk
1039:Gigs
1006:talk
1002:Gigs
998:this
962:talk
958:Gigs
947:talk
933:talk
897:talk
881:talk
807:talk
785:talk
781:Gigs
747:talk
743:Gigs
709:talk
705:Gigs
629:talk
625:Gigs
611:talk
607:Gigs
564:talk
560:Gigs
525:talk
511:talk
507:Gigs
496:talk
481:talk
477:Gigs
444:talk
426:talk
422:Gigs
381:talk
234:talk
230:Gigs
140:talk
136:Gigs
125:Talk
103:talk
99:Gigs
66:talk
62:Gigs
3013:(t/
3005:NJA
2964:(t/
2956:NJA
2892:(t/
2884:NJA
2870:and
2866:and
2840:(t/
2832:NJA
2788:(t/
2780:NJA
2767:Dui
2762:Mac
2757:Ben
2735:(t/
2727:NJA
2665:(t/
2657:NJA
2619:(t/
2611:NJA
2536:(t/
2528:NJA
2466:(t/
2458:NJA
2400:(t/
2392:NJA
2284:Dui
2279:Mac
2274:Ben
2240:is.
2115:Red
2108:Key
2064:Dui
2059:Mac
2054:Ben
2015:Dui
2010:Mac
2005:Ben
1942:Yup
1920:Yup
1756:fax
1746:Jus
1721:fax
1711:Jus
1557:fax
1547:Jus
1497:fax
1487:Jus
1451:fax
1441:Jus
1416:Rfc
1394:not
1382:Rfa
1189:fax
1179:Jus
1146:fax
1136:Jus
1028:Dui
1023:Mac
1018:Ben
984:Dui
979:Mac
974:Ben
919:fax
909:Jus
850:fax
840:Jus
771:Dui
766:Mac
761:Ben
732:Dui
727:Mac
722:Ben
659:Dui
654:Mac
649:Ben
602:not
592:Dui
587:Mac
582:Ben
466:fax
456:Jus
411:fax
401:Jus
345:|
341:Tan
325:fax
315:Jus
305:are
291:|
287:Tan
275:fax
265:Jus
250:|
246:Tan
217:|
213:Tan
195:fax
185:Jus
169:|
165:Tan
88:Dui
83:Mac
78:Ben
3063:)
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2377:–
2350:–
2224:':
2032:)
1855:}}
1851:{{
1751:da
1737:)
1716:da
1701:)
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