Knowledge talk:Reference desk/Archive 8

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larger community. It is after all our collective wisdom that educates and provides perspective (sometimes in the form of humor) through our answers to the variety of questions that come up within the current categorizing scheme. I personally feel enriched by my scanning of the questions and answers in the categories even though my primary interests may lie within some narrower field within a given category. Oh, and don't get me started on the many young people who can't get things straight as they are now segmented!

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cyclical period on the reference desk where the number of questions starts to decline for the 2 months or so, so it's quite interesting that the request for splitting has occurred now. I think what we should do is add at most 3 desks - if we do any splitting. I'd like to see the size of the humanities, science and miscellaneous desks cut in half. What's 3 new desks we can introduce that can do that? I haven't been following the content of these desks quite so closely anymore. --

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29648 81% 1389 3196 Knowledge:Reference desk/Miscellaneous 4764.6 MB 28578 97% 2266 480 Knowledge:Copyright problems 3563.8 MB 27827 46% 2908 8390 Knowledge:Sandbox 140.1 MB 25838 59% 2134 5920 George W. Bush 1679.6 MB ... 8890 79% 496 1009 Knowledge:Reference desk/Science 1757.2 MB ... 6018 69% 401 1180 Knowledge:Reference desk/Humanities 850.6 MB

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desk will also begin to really pick up by April. I guess for now, 7 sections at most would suffice, but do whatever is easiest with your code. Also, we don't have to be too concerned if the header is not added exactly after midnight. Hydnjo has been very kind to actually go into the page history and figure out the last question posted before midnight...but if the bot is off by one or two questions, I think it would be okay too. I hope this helps! --

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since I'm not at my computer around midnight and won't usually get the message until about 15:00 UTC. (I already know about the new day's header being misplaced if a new section sneaks in between midnight and the bot's update; it just appends it to the bottom.) One question: how many daily sections should I leave on the pages (not including the new, empty section for today)? Manual archival's been varying between six and seven. —

1175: 599:. Lots of categories, and so, pages to check, actually makes it less convenient for question answerers, who have to open up lots of pages. Smaller, barely used categories will get ignored, and answer quality would drop as a result. (The reference desk is the one place where watchlists don't help.) It's also going to drastically increase the difficulty of maintenance. 1478:: when a user types a summary and hits "Enter", instead of the cursor moving to the next textbox, a blank question is submitted. This is a really poor interface, because hitting "Enter" seems like a very natural thing to do. If this bug is affecting you, you may wish to comment on it, or advocate that it be fixed. -- 602:

Less convenient? I know a lot about music, but not about the other humanities. I stopped watching the humanities page for that reason. This will actually introduce more people such as myself to watch and ARCHIVE(hint hint, maintenance easier) these pages. There won't be any bare categories, these

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The categorization is good. I don't think we can do much better than that. To be honest, I'd prefer if we didn't do this splitting stuff at all. I mean, when will it end? But of course, I can only assume that Wikipedians in general love the reference desk, and I guess this splitting is just a healthy

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Well, not that we shouldn't split the reference desk - but I think we have to think carefully about this one. Are we splitting because we really want a comprehensive reference desk service? Or are we doing this out of convenience that the pages look shorter? Or a little bit of both? Or something else

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When I archive, I don't really think too consciously about the number of sections I leave on the reference desk - but people seem to be happy with having 5 to 7 active sections. I leave only 5 sections active when the desk is extremely busy...this is usually during the late fall. The activity on the

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Nor do I really see any reason to split humanities when it doesn't have the same volume as science. Further, the more we split, the more likely we are to have questions miscatted or falling into an overlap (e.g. discussion of society inevitably requires reference to history. And what about questions

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which should probably be reposted here. We offer the "Ask a question" link much more prominently than the "Search" box - no wonder new readers use it! We need a "Search" (or "Look up") box right under the Welcome line before we can even think about blaming others. This is more important and helpful

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I've run this in read-only mode for the past few days, and it seems to be working correctly. I'm going to start running it on the live pages tonight. Please let me know on my talk page if it does anything wrong, instead of just quietly fixing it, or it'll keep doing it wrong; but do fix it, too,

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receives only three or fewer (sometimes zero) questions per day. Any section with sparse traffic because of too narrow a definition (say, Music) will not be visited except by those with a narrow interest (in say the Humanities) and thus will be neglected and forfeit the rich perspective of the

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On another note, the images on the template will be kept in the case of some categories. Currently those images are used as links to redirect to the specific ref desk pages. We'll need to eventually change them to redirect to the new ref desk categories(except for the ones we're keeping, like

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Personally, I think splitting the desk will help solve the problems above only transiently - by making the reference desk more accessible, it makes it grow quicker. Right after the previous splitting, the popularity of the reference desks soared. Interestingly enough, we are actually entering a

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now stands. After much discussion and controversy the proposal to make four categories was approved not so much from a need to have categories per se but to improve manageability, the page was just too darn long and smooth navigation required archiving at less than appropriate intervals. That

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The current suggestion of providing eight categories has also been met with the suggestion that the RD categories be aligned with the Main Page categories (now eight plus Misc to equal nine which is soon to be upped to ten plus Misc equaling eleven categories) which IMO seems like drastic

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Edits Unique users Articles Archived Total Reg. Reg. Unreg. 40240 97% 1496 607 Knowledge:Votes for deletion archive May 2004 2368.2 MB 32037 40% 2756 9658 Knowledge:Sandbox/History 237.7 MB

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Good idea. We definitely shouldn't split it up into the new categories cus that'd make it harder to find old humanities. Your choice which one to archive it in(Society might be more reasonable though cus I'm expecting it to get less posts overall in the future). Peace,

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Oh what a neat idea! Lets make this particular little corner of WP the opposite of the entire rest of WP. With every new brain around here comes a refreshing and brilliant perspective of how things should be. Personally HC, I don't think that would be

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A couple of problems--question answerers not wanting to watch a page because it is too broad, archives piling up too fast, making it more hard for people to find answers to old questions, and confusion for people asking questions. These are the major

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Wonderful news! The last time I talked to someone, the archival was not possible because I wouldn't be around during noon or midnight UMT (whichever one is applicable). Speaking of which, let me archive the pages right now. It's getting rather long.

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Yes, that would be nice too, I think! Hmm...I'm not sure if this would be possible - like all Knowledge talk pages, whenever you add a new "thread" to the page, it goes to the bottom. I guess there might be a way to do this if someone could code it.

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Having been a regular reader/contributor here for a while now, I have concluded that the existing sectioning is about right and that this attempt to further fragment the Reference Desk seems more like a solution in search of a problem.

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likely that there will be overlaps, because they aren't specific enough. Culture refers to what members of society do, and society refers to things having to do with the society as a whole. If you look at the (still in progress)

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I have one request though - let's elaborate more on your ideas before we make any attempt at splitting. At this point, I am weary of increasing the number of desks unless other people jump in and help with archival/date stamping.

901:(as a direct result of the following comment, this humorous proposal has been condemned to relocation to an undisclosed location for trying to be humorous about this serious topic. please contact this user for private showings) 1397:

I just did. That'd be pretty handy; it was getting fairly backed up for a while. I'm usually on around noon UMT; I can archive it for y'all if you like. It'd be like Hollywood Video's 5 1/2 days scheme.

643:?), and other confusing things (Hell, I wouldn't be able to tell you the difference between 'culture' and 'society'), which will inevitably lead to new users dumping questions any old place. 693:

Also, I think a change of this nature will need alot more user consultation than just this relatively obscure talkpage. I mean, if you guys are planning to push ahead with this. --

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and list any TeX expressions that they would like to see in the special characters list on edit pages? I'm looking for the top 25-50 most-used characters/functions/etc. Thanks. —

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Well, I'd like to preserve the humanities desk in some way...the page history for that should fall in somewhere; perhaps the "culture" desk if that is more appropriate. --

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Wouldn't it be nice to put today's additions on top? Now I have to scroll to the bottom of at least the Table of Contents in order to read the most recent questions. ---

496:-- I'll merge the page histories afterwards. This way, we can guarantee our "normal" operation of the RD while these changes are being tested out. Sounds good? -- 505:

You're aware of how much work that entails? Figuring out which cat all those questions go in? Or am I wrong to assume you'll be moving them to the new cats?--

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be under the impression that music would have its own category...we aren't planning on doing that...it would be under

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Perhaps there should be a category JUST on computer questions. But you notice even with sub-categories, some stuff does get posted to the wrong ones.

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Perhaps we should remerge science and math? If you suggested us doing that we could probably do that, and would be more constructive. thx, --

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LOL :-) Well, after some thought, it might be easier to just keep it the way it is until MediaWiki fundamentally alters its software! --

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If the reference desk is going to be split, are there any volunteers who will agree to patrol the pages and add the date headers? --

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than most of the other links in that prime place. It would also help if we added a search box to the top of this (helpdesk) page.

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There will be overlaps, but they will be the exception, not the rule. The categories are so huge right now that its actually

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I've noticed that there are a lot of "blank" questions, with a summary but no text. I suspect this may be caused largely by

381:- let's make sure to have the sentance or so description of what is included. Anyone oppose this categorization scheme?-- 47: 17: 121:

We need more specific categories, the pages get bloated. I'd suggest dividing humanities into the arts and music, etc.--

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I think it was better before. I also think the problem is elsewhere, and I've set things in motion to get it fixed. see

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Is this supposed to be serious? If not please remove it as the talk pages are only for work on articles. thx :) --

561:, or is it good as is? By the way, please answer the above questions/statements if you want to. Thanks, very much-- 143:

Word..and we can't add new categories cus page editing is locked thanks to vandals. If an admin could do this...--

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If your keyboard has an "End" key you could hit that to bring you to the bottom of the page instead of scrolling.

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I'm usually editing around early morning UTC, so I could make it part of my routine to check for the date. —

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and I'm still not convinced that that decision was wise given the sparce (three or fewer) daily inquiries.

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so that questions stay date sorted. Really could be automated, but it doesn't take much time. —

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section stands can in fact be instructive with regards to a boundary condition of specialization.

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This just came to mind. We'll also need to redo Knowledge:Reference_desk/How_to_ask_and_answer.--

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I'll watch the culture page all the time, what do you mean by add the date headers though?--

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It seems the reference desk is a greater burden on the servers than I would have guessed. —

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Those are fairly arbitrary and nonintuitive divisions. Humanities should be split into

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are huge subject matters. And by the way, a lot of people do watch the help desks.--

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resulted in a reasonable distribution of quetions (except for the usually heavy

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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is protected, but if you look very carefully, the template header is not :-)

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Can we at least give this a week before any changes are made to the main

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Perhaps this recategorization will help prevent duplicate questions :)--

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New Proposed Header (so as to squeeze in as many categories as possible)

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Latest archive is number 7. Hope I haven't archived too many threads. --

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What is actually the problem that this measure is trying to address?--

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You're correct in saing that I'm misunderstanding your position!--

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page? :-) Some Wikipedians only visit this page on a weekly basis.

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explains what to do if you see a similar problem in the future. —

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Hey ya'll, any changes need to be made to the appearence of the

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brain and reminds me of what day it is and how much time flies.

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Wikipedia_talk:Where_to_ask_a_question#From the Reference Desk

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had no categories at all not too long ago, pretty much as the

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And that's almost Knowledge's main categories. God damn it.

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Geesh, I quess that's it then - I'll give up all hope for a

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Every day someone needs to add =Date= to the bottom like

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We aren't doing it all at once, and we're trying to be

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Thanks for the sarcasm. It was just a thought ... ---

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Hopefully, 24: 297:(covering computing etc etc) and 254:. Science could be divided into 1191:...(CTU) 6002 yraunaJ 21 ,81:31 1173: 301:(physics, biology, environment, 29: 1361: 803:the camel's nose under the tent 766:. Here's the current template: 246:Humanities could be split into 1155: 1148: 1141: 1125: 1118: 1111: 1089: 1067: 631:that had a profound effect on 1: 1162: 1132: 1084: 1062: 312:And that would leave us with 18:Knowledge talk:Reference desk 1539:21:13, 21 January 2006 (UTC) 1519:02:51, 21 January 2006 (UTC) 1501:02:34, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 1483:17:33, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 1458:18:13, 23 January 2006 (UTC) 1436:08:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC) 1423:15:50, 20 January 2006 (UTC) 1409:23:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC) 1392:15:44, 15 January 2006 (UTC) 1343:15:58, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1311:16:01, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1287:12:11, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1274:05:18, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1261:03:33, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1247:14:19, 13 January 2006 (UTC) 1226:18:39, 12 January 2006 (UTC) 1206:16:56, 12 January 2006 (UTC) 1185:13:18, 12 January 2006 (UTC) 1031:12:27, 12 January 2006 (UTC) 1017:17:14, 12 January 2006 (UTC) 1002:16:26, 11 January 2006 (UTC) 976:23:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC) 957:13:01, 11 January 2006 (UTC) 947:11:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC) 921:13:16, 15 January 2006 (UTC) 911:16:28, 15 January 2006 (UTC) 899: 893: 885:08:01, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 876:21:22, 15 January 2006 (UTC) 852:20:47, 15 January 2006 (UTC) 842:20:41, 15 January 2006 (UTC) 796:18:08, 15 January 2006 (UTC) 758:18:04, 15 January 2006 (UTC) 721:07:49, 11 January 2006 (UTC) 711:20:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC) 698:19:40, 10 January 2006 (UTC) 683:20:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC) 673:19:39, 10 January 2006 (UTC) 660:20:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC) 608:20:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC) 586:18:32, 15 January 2006 (UTC) 576:23:57, 10 January 2006 (UTC) 566:21:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC) 542:18:32, 10 January 2006 (UTC) 510:17:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC) 501:16:44, 10 January 2006 (UTC) 386:16:01, 10 January 2006 (UTC) 374:15:53, 10 January 2006 (UTC) 357:15:52, 10 January 2006 (UTC) 289:(philosophy, religion, law, 271:15:41, 10 January 2006 (UTC) 240:15:11, 10 January 2006 (UTC) 112:18:07, 23 January 2006 (UTC) 1188: 1168: 1097: 214:20:55, 9 January 2006 (UTC) 204:20:35, 9 January 2006 (UTC) 182:20:29, 9 January 2006 (UTC) 148:11:48, 9 January 2006 (UTC) 139:11:43, 9 January 2006 (UTC) 126:11:17, 9 January 2006 (UTC) 1557: 635:which is expressed in the 293:). Science could go into 1252:Who is going to help out? 1048:stuff as it refreshes my 961:Urthogie: I refer you to 1353:Will someone look over 930:I got this table from 926:7 GB of Reference desk 465:Template:RD header new 1349:Most-used math codes? 42:of past discussions. 862:be more constructive 117:categories too broad 1476:MediaZilla Bug 4273 1366:• 2006-01-14 01:07 639:and indeed modern 305:, etc). Chopping 1377:Has anyone asked 1367: 1341: 1099:OR would that be: 653:new template page 372: 355: 199:entirely? 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263: 259: 255: 251: 247: 120: 106: 75: 43: 37: 1455:HappyCamper 1420:HappyCamper 1258:HappyCamper 1203:HappyCamper 1072:A)100.2... 1028:HappyCamper 573:HappyCamper 537:science).-- 498:HappyCamper 330:Mathematics 237:HappyCamper 201:HappyCamper 179:HappyCamper 109:HappyCamper 36:This is an 1498:Common Man 1335:Charles P. 1126:A)100.1... 1119:A)100.2... 1112:A)100.3... 1075:A)100.3... 1068:A)100.1... 866:WP:RD/Math 820:WP:RD/Math 747:WP:RD/Math 629:technology 621:scientists 617:historical 591:Opposition 461:template: 326:Technology 295:Technology 133:User:AlMac 95:Archive 15 87:Archive 10 1512:Superm401 1480:Creidieki 1355:this list 1156:A)99.1... 1149:A)99.2... 1142:A)99.3... 1090:A)99.1... 830:overkill. 678:issues.-- 303:geography 291:geography 264:(History) 82:Archive 9 76:Archive 8 70:Archive 7 65:Archive 6 60:Archive 5 1403:Xanthine 1284:Urthogie 1133:Q)100... 1063:Q)100... 970:Xanthine 954:Urthogie 918:Urthogie 882:Urthogie 849:Urthogie 793:Urthogie 718:Urthogie 708:Urthogie 680:Urthogie 657:Urthogie 641:language 605:Urthogie 583:Urthogie 563:Urthogie 539:Urthogie 507:Urthogie 383:Urthogie 334:Language 268:Urthogie 211:Urthogie 145:Urthogie 123:Urthogie 1430:Cryptic 1406:Katrena 1163:Q)99... 1085:Q)99... 973:Katrena 824:WP:RD/S 816:WP:RD/M 764:culture 637:culture 633:society 471:WP:BOLD 379:Support 338:History 322:Science 318:Society 314:Culture 307:History 299:Science 287:society 283:culture 39:archive 1433:(talk) 1400:Cernen 1339:(Mirv) 1329:Done. 1220:hydnjo 1196:ojndyh 1179:hydnjo 1011:Dismas 967:Cernen 905:hydnjo 903::-( 870:hydnjo 836:hydnjo 752:hydnjo 597:Oppose 340:, and 1236:Benne 1216:DR:PW 991:Benne 811:WP:HD 807:WP:RD 743:WP:RD 695:Fangz 670:Fangz 430:WP:RD 363:Proto 346:Proto 161:WP:RD 16:< 1531:and 1516:Talk 1388:Ruud 1362:0918 1301:this 1242:talk 1223:talk 1193:klat 1187:... 1182:talk 1042:nice 997:talk 943:Ruud 908:talk 873:talk 839:talk 755:talk 704:Bold 648:more 623:and 258:and 250:and 1381:if 1050:old 1046:old 859:not 469:be 458:new 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Knowledge

talk:Reference desk/Archive 8 - Knowledge

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