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the Cirrus factory from nearby
Croydon to Blackburn's home ground in Yorkshire? Blackburn had their eye on a new range, they did not want their name associated with the older generation of Cirrus types. So Cirrus Hermes remained a separate operating company under its old name (less the hyphen) within the group, while the Minor (Cirrus III replacement?) and Major (Hermes replacement?) were still under development. Manufacture and sales began under the Cirrus Hermes company name in 1935. Only after they had become established and the older types could be withdrawn, did Blackburn bring the company in as an operating division under their own name, around the start of 1937. (Some of the motivation needs me to find my source again, but the events and dates are unarguable from the sources I give here). If Philips and Powis were involved at any stage, let's see your evidence.
754:. Yes the whole thing is confusing, especially when scarce sources conflict as much as they do and even authoritative histories disagree. It is hardly surprising if a fresh eye bringing more sources finds things that need sorting out, I trust that you appreciate this aspect. In particular, I am proposing to rename just two engine articles and one company article; I do not regard that as "wholesale" and I do not regard such aggressive language as helpful.
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1415:. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are
709:) was another measure that I hoped would be helpful. The article titles are those given by the reference source used (Lumsden, British aero engines) and I agree with them as that is how they appear on UK CAA airworthiness and certification documents, museum placards etc. For British engines it is usual to use 'type' instead of 'model', an
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On the use of "models", my usage does not refer specifically to types as you suggest but also to variants, i.e. as a shorthand for "types and variants". Most or all could be replaced with "engines", if you prefer. But really, that is a distraction from the present discussion, I'd suggest you copyedit
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Gunston's encyclopedia (4th edn 1998) discusses the
Blackburn Cirrus developments, indeed all developments, under Cirrus, Blackburn do not even get their own entry in the encyclopedia. So we would need to see strong evidence of common usage to the contrary (and not just a list of cherries picked via
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article currently covers the whole range of "Cirrus" engines. As I have filled it out I have found that sources tend to describe them according to the manufacturer in focus at the time, there is no definitive usage between say "ADC Cirrus" vs. "Blackburn Cirrus" and under Cirrus-Hermes they tend to
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are some advertisements for the Minor and Major throughout much of 1935. Notice that they are being offered by the Cirrus Hermes
Engineering Co Ltd. with its address given as Brough, i.e. Blackburn's address. Philips and Powis were based in Berkshire and Northern Ireland; why would they have moved
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point. But we have a cadre who insist on the "correct" spelling in case it confuses the poor foreigner - a foreigner who in truth will have come across Ltd. many times but has no idea that
Knowledge (XXG) is, or can be, an exception to the norm. Do we have an adopted policy or guideline on this? —
909:
1936 Public company incorporated: Blackburn
Aircraft Ltd. This acquired the 2 existing companies of Blackburn Aeroplane and Motor Co, and North Sea Aerial and General Transport but the directors decided not to bring Cirrus Hermes Engineering Co, an associated company, into the group at that time
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The
Blackburn Cirrus Minor and Major were wholly designed and produced by Blackburn. The full name of the division was Blackburn Aircraft Ltd, Cirrus Engine Department, Brough, Yorkshire. The assets and production rights of the Cirrus-Hermes Engineering Company were bought by Phillips and Powis
815:
There are many instances of engine articles using their common name instead of the launch company or designer, arguments rumble on as to what the common names should be but community consensus and use in sources and official publications generally helps.
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Thanks. I'll give it a bit longer for other editors to comment. But one peripheral detail bothers me. I find
Knowledge (XXG)'s constant spelling-out of "Limited" to be pedantic and precious. Almost nobody else goes beyond "Ltd." so that is the way that
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A few have their own articles, most do not. Some of those articles names are, or may be, inappropriate. If we adhere strictly to the
Company-Model-Variant (CMV) article naming convention, Some of these article titles are, or would be, clumsy. Following
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links in there, the aviation project will need to tackle this somehow this year, presumably by contacting the editor or by asking the top neddies of
Knowledge (XXG) to pay for block access or come to some kind of arrangement. There was a discussion at
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Aircraft (Reading) Ltd in
February 1934, two years later Blackburn acquired these assets and produced the Cirrus Major (1936) followed by the Minor and Midget (both 1937). They would have kept the Cirrus name to ensure sales in much the same way that
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so we call it that. On the other hand the Blackburn Cirrus Major was launched by Cirrus Hermes (no hyphen), which makes it the Cirrus Hermes Cirrus Major. Except, everyone has always avoided such ugly repetition and simply called it the
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As the creator of most of these articles I don't see any pressing reason to make sweeping changes. I remember that the Cirrus article range was very confusing and I worked quite hard to clarify the situation, creating the Cirrus navbox
1041:. Off hand I can't think of any other engine range that has been kicked about and developed so much between manufacturers but kept its unique identity throughout. Do we have a precedent on how we treat such situations? — Cheers,
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be referred to simply as the Cirrus. I am coming to think that the actual ADC products, the ADC Cirrus I, II and III, should be the only subject covered under this title, and the present overview content moved to say
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as a separate operating division. So, which Cirrus companies/subsidiaries/divisions should have their own articles and which should be subsumed into other company articles? My best suggestion at the moment would be:
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Cool, I will remove the link from ENGSPS and have a look around his website. Some of the other websites listed no longer exist but I'll leave the links there just in case some articles are using them as a source.
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set up shop at Croydon, lasted over twice as long and introduced many more models. When Blackburn first took it over it moved to their site at Brough and dropped the hyphen. later it was subsumed into the parent
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Now to specifics; we customarily name an article after the brand under which the product was initially launched. For example the Hawker Siddeley Buccanneer aircraft was launched as the
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The Cirrus and Hermes ranges of engines were produced by a series of manufactures, most of whom continued earlier variants while introducing new ones. They are currently summarised at
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We don't adhere strictly to the MDN system that the aircraft articles use though there is consistency within company ranges and military engines. Engine naming guidance is
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And your account of the history also conflicts with his. According to Gunston, "In 1934 the business was bought by Blackburn Aircraft at Brough", not two years later.
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around 2013 but the site owner (William Pearce) has had three specialist aero engine books published, one in 2012, one in 2018 and as joint author one in 2019.
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guideline that is what we should call it; note that NCAIR does not address this last point, and what's more is only an essay; it may have worked well for
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Thanks Steelpillow. It does indeed seem a reasonable way forward. I am persuaded by all the changes you suggest. Please go ahead with the changes.
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article, then cut down the ADC Cirrus to just that engine. Technically bad protocol but saved a lot of faffing with RfCs and edit logs. — Cheers,
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guideline. Basically, we stick to the common name and avoid all the "Co. Ltd." bit unless we need to disambiguate. Suits me. — Cheers,
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are cases where the designing company does not feature in the article name (but is rightly acknowledged in the article lead section).
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operated from the same address as ADC and lasted only 2 1/2 years; I am unsure if it was a subsidiary of ADC or not. The independent
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article it ought to be put up for AfD. That also casts a dead hand on my proposed American and Hermes company articles. — Cheers,
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Can't find any relevant examples, the Cirrus range seems to have bee a unique movable feast. The article on the company
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Using the website as a reliable source would open up very useful information, I would say that the last book is not
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The first two books are published by Old Machine Press (William Pearce) and the last by Specialty Press.
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There is an edit summary though : "See talk page"; but the talk page can't be read in a limited time.--
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that it is not the aspect they are personally interested in. More eyes/comments would be welcome at
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Please ignore the walls of text, you know what they always mean. Just ask yourself whether
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Done, rather than remove it I placed it in the reliable source section. There are a lot of
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Here are the existing engine articles, together with my suggestions for improvement:
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and hence also the guideline. Since it contains no information additional to the
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On creating (or otherwise) articles for each company involved, I have asked the
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of properly-cited content looks like it was justified or not. — Cheers,
778:, but it is inadequate for such confusions as surround the Cirrus range.
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across, which was mostly added by me anyway, and re-purposed it as the
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because its new products (engines) were still in the development phase.
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so he now qualifies as a reliable source. Thumbs up or thumbs down?!
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Check engine companies for categories and add to articles if needed.
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unless anybody has a policy/guideline based objection. — Cheers,
515:, they should be simplified to more common and intuitive titles.
1411:. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the
1370:. Has been pretty quiet in here this year. I just chanced upon
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1378:. Perhaps the hatnote needs bolding?!! All good fun, cheers.
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On company naming in article titles, I have now found the
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a search engine) before Knowledge (XXG) goes against that.
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that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject.
907:. I have added their references as cited in their text:
608:(ADC) unless and until its independence can be verified.
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which needed some love I noticed it was sourced to the
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Does all this seem a reasonable way forward? — Cheers,
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Talk:Two-stroke diesel engine#Special:Diff/1035300967
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912:. I confess I have not checked out those issues of
1098:In the end I copied the multi-company content of
1295:, unfortunately. You have my sympathy, though!--
541:, but as that is so ugly I'd suggest moving to
146:does not require a rating on Knowledge (XXG)'s
37:and anything related to its purposes and tasks.
1072:I think I will move the ADC-titled article to
998:article is not only wrongly spelled but fails
990:Having just found the Notability guideline at
575:We also have an out-of place company article,
354:Add or complete specifications for engines in
480:This page has archives. Sections older than
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295:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Aircraft/Engines
531:- Expand current redirect into new article.
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622:Cirrus Hermes Engineering Company Limited
616:Cirrus-Hermes Engineering Company Limited
589:Cirrus-Hermes Engineering Company Limited
18:Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Aircraft
1448:There is a requested move discussion at
360:Improve modern, high profile, articles:
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1504:Knowledge (XXG) pages with to-do lists
1489:Project-Class aircraft engine articles
551:- according to CMV this should be the
537:- according to CMV this should be the
230:. To use this banner, please see the
730:, it has worked well for many years.
212:This page is within the scope of the
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1450:Talk:Avia#Requested move 4 July 2024
1436:Talk:Avia#Requested move 4 July 2024
1121:Old Machine Press as reliable source
525:- No change, keep as parent article.
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1494:Aircraft engine task force articles
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1172:as he is now a published expert. -
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55:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome!
1168:I agree, meets the exemption in
1125:Happy New Year! Looking through
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50:Click here to start a new topic.
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903:Ah, here's the missing source;
1399:CFM International CFM56 at FAR
448:- January 2012 - December 2012
418:- October 2009 - December 2009
260:the aircraft engine task force
1:
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1269:cited content, apparently on
1070:in order to help disambiguate
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47:Put new text under old text.
1409:featured article review here
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443:- March 2011 - December 2011
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553:Cirrus Hermes Cirrus Major
543:Cirrus Minor (aero engine)
539:Cirrus Hermes Cirrus Minor
453:- January 2013 - July 2015
433:- August 2010 - March 2011
413:- July 2009 - October 2009
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1260:Two-stroke diesel engine
624:- Create as redirect to
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563:Blackburn Cirrus Midget
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80:avoid personal attacks
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1133:. This was listed at
408:- Dec 2008 - Jul 2009
759:Blackburn Buccanneer
338:- Expansion required
215:Aviation WikiProject
1265:An editor has just
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1277:. — Cheers,
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29:This is the
1362:Time flies!
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1318:this revert
1279:Steelpillow
1271:the grounds
1258:Dispute at
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1078:Steelpillow
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1008:Steelpillow
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916:.— Cheers,
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684:Steelpillow
633:Steelpillow
227:task forces
1478:Categories
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1100:ADC Cirrus
1034:ADC Cirrus
1004:ADC Cirrus
992:WP:COMPANY
889:— Cheers,
869:floats by)
785:— Cheers,
742:floats by)
614:- move to
581:ADC Cirrus
523:ADC Cirrus
456:Archive 11
451:Archive 10
291:To-do list
221:open tasks
1186:Agreed.--
1135:WP:ENGSPS
940:WP:NCCORP
914:The Times
766:, so per
711:WP:ENGVAR
446:Archive 9
441:Archive 8
436:Archive 7
431:Archive 6
426:Archive 5
421:Archive 4
416:Archive 3
411:Archive 2
406:Archive 1
109:WT:AIRENG
101:Shortcuts
93:if needed
76:Be polite
31:talk page
1384:(Cumulus
1267:reverted
1236:(Cumulus
1207:(Cumulus
1153:(Cumulus
863:(Cumulus
772:WP:NCAIR
736:(Cumulus
682:Cheers,
675:WP:NCAIR
513:WP:NCAIR
393:Archives
237:Aviation
173:Aviation
61:get help
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650:Dolphin
482:31 days
366:PW1000G
343:Maybach
341:Create
319:refresh
307:history
178:Engines
116:WT:AETF
1407:for a
1387:nimbus
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824:) and
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150:scale.
1421:Z1720
1174:Ahunt
1068:, so
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372:, etc
313:watch
142:This
89:Seek
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362:GEnx
301:edit
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224:and
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