873:, if it looks like a stub, or already tagged as one on the article page, I just went ahead assessed it as such. However, if you feel that any particular article meets the Start through B standard, you are free to re-assess as you see fit. 2) As far as the infobox stats go, there doesn't seem to have been a standard stat table to use, so I try to use categories that will show some numbers; it doesn't look good to me to show that someone went .000, 0 HRs, 0 RBIs in a career, looks better to show 1 Game played, 2 at bats, 1 base on balls (as an example). However, if you think different stats would look better, go ahead and change it, not a big deal. 3) Most of the time, its me hanging out here in the oldtime-baseball task-force, so the more people like you that have an interest in helping out, the better this great era of baseball will be. I especially like your interest in the NABBP player lists, it helps get those article created and categories filled.
393:. Since these leagues are not considered "Major Leagues", but it has been established, apparently, that the players themselves are considered "Major Leaguers". That way, we can keep all the pre-1871 team categories, like the Red Stockings, and seperate the 1871-1875 teams. As much as people like me want to promote the NAPBBP to Major League status, it doesn't appear likely that it is going to happen. I look forward to anyone's thoughts on this matter.
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1145:... what would I do in practice? When listing NABBP clubs that do not have pages here (see below, section "Infobox list of Teams"), I have liberally or even universally used the style represented by "Enterprise of Brooklyn" and "Irvington of Irvington, NJ" —with a bluelink for the city if not very famous, no redlink for the club except
1245:
does not use the
Template. There are big basic problems with what is presented in that league standings table but let me say that I dislike the column-widths strongly, especially forcing the team names to display on two lines. I don't believe that "Wins" and "Losses" need to be spelled out, nor would
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We should strive to leave team/club naming conventions implicit in player articles and we should keep any explanation short where necessary. Maybe some boilerplate on player Talk pages will be useful. Supposing a comfortable clear explanation in one paragraph, I believe it would be appropriate only
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Marshall Wright's compilation is the source for almost all of my NABBP teams listings and classifications in players by team categories. I have not provided references and I feel tentatively that superscripts are inappropriate there. I have upgraded any article from stub to start only where I have
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even if we do use that brandname back to 1871. I doubt that readers will infer the Team list is more comprehensive, even if the titles of three preceding cells specify MLB and the Teams title does not; on the contrary, some will presume that Teams covers MLB only, even though MLB is not specified.
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page went through PROD and was deleted without any fanfare. It has since been restored, but it drew my attention to the page, and...wow, is it in horrible shape. I have added a paragraph on the basic nature of the controversy, but I figure someone from this subproject could probably better handle
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Yes, it probably should be moved. I'm just concerned about the protocol for single-article categories, because I thought they might just get deleted. In fact, it might just be easier to create the new category and change all the existing articles rather than get it moved, because getting it moved
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I notice there is no separate category for the players from this team, and they seem to be lumped in with the team that was founded in 1882. On various pages, I see conflicting information regarding whether or not the two teams were the same organization, but most of what I've seen indicates they
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I am going to attempt to kick-start this task force. I spent almost of all my time creating and re-working these articles anyway, but this task-force seems dead. I've added the assessment table, and will spend some time getting the old-time tags on all articles that fall within the task force's
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Need a source. Many "RS" (a dubious classification with regard to early baseball), such as the
Britannica, assert that Philadelphia N.L. officially adopted the name Phillies in 1890, making it the oldest team name in American professional sports. But I'll be darned if I can find a primary source
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page mentions absolutely nothing about the rules of the 19th century (or, indeed, any major rule difference beyond the introduction of the DH), and indeed the focus is on the "static" nature of the game's rules in the "modern era". It's seriously pathetic. On this one, I don't even know where to
324:, etc. I added the rest of the 1869 team into the category just in case. In that vein, I suppose that the manager category wouldn't be necessary, even though I have seen, and maybe created, a few manager categories for teams that had just one manager. Sorry for the bad edit earlier. Shouldn't
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at the beginning of the Teams list. Unlike Negro
Leagues, OB minor leagues, and Japanese leagues for later players with notable mixed careers, the NABBP part of anyone's career is ~always at the beginning. Thus the method of dividing the Teams list with bold headings does not interfere with its
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I chose to avoid repeating "NABBP" on every line, not to mention using a longer version of that name, but I don't yet! have any strong or nearly complete opinion about styling the
Infobox list of Teams. We need other opinions but that isn't urgent. The number of pages for NABBP players is small
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Is there consensus to use the
Infobox and to feature major league playing stats for everyone who did play in the majors? (The example of Satchel Paige suggests Yes but also shows another focus in the Teams and Highlights sub-boxes. Is Satchel Paige a model useful for early players too, who were
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Here I see no reason to split the
Chicago ballclub except practical ones: (a) everything pertaining to 1870-1875 or 70-71 or 74-75 or 71-75 is likely to be lost in the tidal wave that represents 130-odd subsequent seasons; (b) there are thousands of modern Chicago Cubs fans, so it's best not to
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In the process of doing this, I also noticed that there are separate categories for
Cincinnati Red Stockings and Cincinnati Red Stockings (AA) for players, but not for managers. Noting this, I went under the assumption that the former belongs to the pre-NA Red Stockings and moved all the AA Red
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For what it's worth, I think the
Infobox list of teams provides the most important information in the Infobox, for most ballplayer articles (but no majority of reader visits). Nevertheless, its current location at the bottom is reasonable because the list is often relatively long. We must have
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that came back in 1874 was called a "hiatus", but I am reading more and more that these are two different teams, complete with different ownership/players/personnel, etc. If this is actually true, it appears that alot of work would have be done to correct this. So in essence, the first White
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Changes in business form do not warrant splitting articles on ballclubs or leagues. The number of historical baseball club and league "reorganizations" in the sense of
Business news is enormous. (Meanwhile too many articles(?) or categories or lists are split by team nickname, including some
966:. Indeed Kelly seems to be the only major leaguer with debut 1871 to 1876, whose firstname we know, and the only regular player, who does not have a page here. "McCloskey" of the 1875 Washington Nationals seems to be the only other 10-game player missing, with debut 1871-76. --
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is "United States baseball outfielder, 1850s birth stubs". I doubt that should be displayed, along with the equivalent note in italics just above the categories. Maybe I caused this by redundant display when I rearranged the footer. Comment: Somewhere we may have a stub whose
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is longer than the so-called prose! Is there consensus to use all of "Major League
Baseball center fielders | Baseball players from Maryland | 19th-century baseball players", using Armstrong for example? Generally I have added players to their NABBP team categories (eg,
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I've been working with 19th century baseball player, managers, umpires and executives for almost 2 years, and only recently discovered this sub, and will be continuing my devotion for these much ignored group of people. I've recently been able to achieve GA status for
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Ok, I, along with many others, know of the split between seasons of the Chicago White Stockings, and that it was the Great Chicago Fire that burned down their stadium and detroyed all of their equipment. Currently, the time between the team disbanded in 1871 and the
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requires an admin, I think. Also, I see no reason why we shouldn't create pages for the NABBP teams if there are enough articles to do it. In any case, it seems like we're on the same page here. Thanks for keeping this project going, and I'm glad I can contribute! -
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for everyone who continued in so-called MLB only as a player before 1876. This partly-abbreviation fits the space available and appears only in a pair with the full N.A.B.B.P. spelled out. For other major leaguers with some NABBP team listings, I have used either
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When the given list of teams is more comprehensive, therefore, we should somehow indicate that. I don't like long listings, such as "Negro Leagues" or even "NABBP" after every team name where applicable (which Neon suggested). So I have opted for a heading
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I modified the baseball wikiproject template to allow for the taskforce, please use this one as it keeps the articles organised under the main baseball project and also under the taskforce. If brown isn't a suitable colour it can be changed..
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I tried out a way of listing the teams in McMullins' infobox, but had another one as well. You give a heading for each early league. Such as NABBP, then list those, NAPBBP, then list those, NL, then list those. Lemme know what you
904:
I have inserted a parenthetical divider that finesses the matter of "major leagues" and "MLB". At the same time let me note that the box provides "MLB debut" and "Last MLB appearances" without apology to the brand owner. What do you
1301:, depending whether a previous editor had demarcated "As Player" and "As Manager". The use of "League" is noncommittal regarding the MLB brand and it fits our practice in calling NAPBBP a league, or the "first professional league".
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Always I have formatted these two or three headings within the Teams cell using initial semicolons, hardspaces, and colons. That improves the look by indenting the headings a little and the listings a lot, rather than jamming
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The reorganized Chicago Base Ball Club did lease grounds for 1872, build a new ballpark there, and operate it commercially beginning in the 1872 season. Indeed, it hosted some NAPBBP championship games during 1872 and 1873.
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broadly and Start class reservedly. Considering that nothing much will every be known about many of these article subjects, many of our Starts and some Stubs probably satisfy the not-very-rigorous descriptions of C class.
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Since you are streamlining this era, maybe you could create a stub for the Union of Morrisania. Seems to be a club that it referred to quite a bit, but no article yet. Also, would you recomend using "Morrisania Unions"
1332:. Among the three NABBP team listings only Brooklyn Atlantics is linked. There is no page for the Enterprise or Quaker City club, nor do I recommend true stubs, so I have not redlinked those listings. (There is a
1052:, then streamlined and updated a summary of its coverage on the Category talk page. While it literally reports on the category, that summary thereby reports wikipedia coverage of the NABBP teams as far as I know.
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21:
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I've gone ahead and created the new category (along with ones for managers and seasons) and moved all the appropriate pages into them. I also removed the pre-1882 managers from the managers navbox and manager
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P.S. I will upgrade known NABBP players to Start class only after covering pre-1871 play in the modest fashion described here. I don't plan to list NABBP teams in the Infoboxes without any coverage in prose.
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I figured it was about time to finish splitting up the Hoosiers into their separate articles, one for the AA team, one for the NL team, and one for the minor league teams (the FL team was already merged into
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only, I have listed NABBP teams in the Infobox, following the popular naming convention and the established list style. The linked team pages may or may not cover their pre-league histories; that's another
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were not. I'm going to go ahead and create the new category, and will go through and move players, but beyond that there are probably a number of pages that will need to be reviewed to address this issue. -
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enough that all of their Infoboxes can be changed manually in "no time", as time runs here. On this scale there is little harm in proceeding either to experiment or to cover all of them in a uniform style.
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Stockings to the proper category. This left only a few pages in the original category. I didn't create a managers category because, as far as I know, the original Red Stockings only had one manager (
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they provide a few slightly different trial looks at how to present the basic team records of W, L, and T games. They also amplify my reply to Neonblak above, that I would avoid much use of the "
1426:, without adding any material about Hands lost to that article. I don't know if anyone here cares about old-time statistics, but this seemed to be a good place to mention this loss of coverage.
523:
1115:
In writing more than a prosified list of a player's team affiliations, I would generally try to specify Morrisania "now in the Bronx" or Lansingburgh "now in Troy" and thereafter use (the)
1096:. Isn't it reasonable to use that convention for all team/club article titles? I say this despite writing the other in prose, because I think it doesn't matter much with a redirect from
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163:
Hey, I'll help out with this project. I'll add infoboxes to every page. Just give it time, I have other commitments to Knowledge (XXG). I'm in over 20 projects, so this will just be
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this than I. For an important historical (and statistical) issue, the page has almost no information on the issue itself, and instead consists mostly of background on the NAPBBP.
526:. The immediate stimulus is integration of NAPBBP playing records in the stat-historical baseball database presented at MLB.com (new sometime after 2006, new to me this week). --
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Stockings played from 1870-1871 in both National Associations, and the second White Stockings started play in 1874 and are now the Cubs. Thoughts on how to seperate these?
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parameters. Speaking of parameters, what constitutes pre-1900. I would assume that all players who played the bulk of their career before 1900? If so, that might mean
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I agree that they should be separate, and also agree that the pre-1871 players should be taken out of the MLB players category entirely. There is already a category for
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Again there is some discussion of how the major leagues and Major League Baseball (r) do and should define our coverage of competitive baseball in olden days. See
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420:. I would suggest that the new category for NABBP players should have the same status, but without additionally being a subcategory of MLB players. -
1149:. Where I know of an article on the club, I have linked to its title using the modern naming convention of its title, no redirect. For example, see
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784:, more detailed than team affiliations --with references to Marshall Wright's stat-historical compilation-- but I have not added to any Infoboxes.
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P.S. My main point was simply that I am covering pre-1871 play in prose (literati must pardon the term) rather than in tables or Infoboxes. -P64
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or a bullet against the left boundary of the cell. It also leaves "League player" and "League manager" easy to change by substitution of
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Hands lost is an ancient baseball statistic. It previously had its own article, a stub. Somebody recently redirected Hands lost to
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included some write-up of the NABBP career, typically relying on the data compiled by Wright, with a reference. For example visit
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I revised some articles on early players to provide some coverage of their NABBP careers and upgraded them to Start class. See
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Okay, I've been waiting a couple days; it seems like no one has any objections. I think I'll go ahead and make it a template.
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Ok, here are my thoughts on this. Having a category for the original Red Stockings is up for debate, as it may be the only
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familiar chronological order of teams, and the N.A.B.B.P. heading (if any) is ~always the first item in the Teams cell.
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1) Well, since most of the time, it's been me mass assessing oldtime articles to ensure that each one is assess with
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What about demarcation between the NABBP and following portions of the Teams list? I have inserted another heading
1021:(statistics goes without sayin') as titles of the three central cells. (I haven't made that change anywhere.) --P64
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to coincide with the player cat? Lemme know what you think, If I missed the point of your question, I appologize.
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was simply a redirect. It really should be its own article. Would any of you like to take a stab at it? Cheers,
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I'm posting this at the main project talk page as well, but this is probably the most appropriate place for it.
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do not fall within the parameters? If no one else weighs in on this, I will change the wording to reflect this.
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1336:. While listing NABBP teams I have added the same pages to previously existing "players by team" categories.)
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articles shorter than their Infoboxes, at least when displayed on a typical full screen. I haven't noticed it.
822:. (I didn't edit any of those numbers; did correct the identification of Armstrong's "9" from RBIs to Runs.)
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298:). On the other hand, it also seemed illogical to submit the current manager page to CfD without having a
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I admit that I found only one page to add, and only by luck. That one I renamed from "Cream Citys" to "
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dispute with them. If they prefer to exclude the 1870-71 teams we should be able to go along with that.
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Thanks. I'm going to move further discussion back here so as not to clutter up the project talk page.
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Do the league seasons beginning 1871 use "Templates" for more compact code? faster data entry? --
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1403:? The article needs be better research and reflect modern scholarly consensus on the subject.--
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team with such a category. If this is kept, then I suppose that one should be created for the
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start, since the differences between the modern game and the game of, say, 1871 are so vast. -
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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Baseball/Old-time Base Ball task force/Archive 1/Unreferenced BLPs
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111:. Let me know what you think! If the vote is unanimous, I'll go ahead and make it a template.
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coverage of the later NABBP seasons by prose and tables that should someday be, perhaps,
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1112:", linked to a redirect that we have. Editors must avoid the plural red link, however.)
1059:" in order to match the naming style that has been widely used here. I recommend it. --
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Answer: All but one, if I clerk correctly: William J. Bill Kelly (outfielder) for the
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There has been a lot of discussion recently about deleting these unreferenced articles
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Ok, I think I see a few things that may need moving and deleting then, follow me here.
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player and manager categories should be moved to a new category under the parent
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I'd like to help. Pre-20th century baseball is an area of much interest to me. --
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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It should be called "Old-time Base Ball task force". Should I move the page? --
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for league play beginning 1871, then I recommend using the parallel structure
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is up from 7 to 10) but I have not added them to these other categories. --
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everything specifically about the Infobox list of teams, continued at the
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Remove the parent cat for all National Association players by team from
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Since we are in the mood to make things acurate, I propose that all the
1104:, perhaps with a geographical qualification. (The plural title such as
649:). In the process, I realized that the NL Hoosiers are essentially the
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Category:National Association of Professional Base Ball players by team
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seems to be strictly redundant for users; that one hits "Do you mean
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There are a few of those early World Series that aren't represented.
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The unreferenced articles related to your project can be found at
683:. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to
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I added some to this discussion at the main baseball talk page.
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For now these are only sections of so-called "lists" but they
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National Association of Professional Base Ball players by team
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Talk: National Association of Professional Base Ball Players
202:, and have created over 120 articles, most within this sub.
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for major leaguers? For example it's 9 Runs and 0 HRs for
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Category:National Association of Base Ball players by team
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Category: National Association of Base Ball Players teams
729:, so it is important that these articles are referenced.
1223:" naming style outside of article and category titles.
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without further reference to Morrisania or Lansingburgh.
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for example. There I have "written up" some records of
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1845 to 1868 in baseball#1868_records_of_major clubs
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I've created a preliminary design for an infobox at
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I'm not sure '1' is necessary, but otherwise yes. -
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391:National Association of Base Ball players by team
948:How many 1871 NAPBBP players do now have pages?
840:: Attention: The last category now listed for
330:Category:Cincinnati Red Stockings (AA) managers
1131:for team/club articles and for player Talk. --
826:I agree with the reply by Neonblak below. -P64
769:Finally yesterday I joined this Wikiproject.
471:Category:Major league baseball players by team
452:Category:National Association baseball players
302:category. So...I'm stuck here. Any thoughts? -
852:Category: Baltimore Marylands (NABBP) players
748:want this wikiproject to participate, please
447:, since they are considered "Major Leaguers".
8:
575:unofficial and poorly documented nicknames.)
1271:everything about the Infobox list of Teams.
641:Also posted at the main project talk page.
1005:If we are comfortable using the trademark
721:, of unreferenced living people articles (
326:Category:Cincinnati Red Stockings managers
109:User:Bookworm1/Old-time Base Ball template
1282:National Association of Base Ball Players
18:Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Baseball
1317:, if others decide to go there, because
1290:National Association of Professional BBP
1275:The Teams list should not be limited to
1325:(followed by "players" or "managers").
1321:always appears literally as the string
710:Unreferenced living people articles bot
1365:National Association as a major league
1359:A couple of pages that need major work
657:for anyone interested in discussing. -
445:Category:Major League Baseball players
441:Category:19th-century baseball players
383:Category:Major League Baseball players
48:Do not edit the contents of this page.
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1179:1870 in baseball#Professional_matches
806:Questions: How do you-all select the
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1399:Can someone rewrite the article for
1334:Category:Brooklyn Enterprise players
1446:backing up the assertion. Anyone?
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1038:new section, Infobox list of Teams
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22:Old-time Base Ball task force
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725:) related to your project.
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462:, then move them both under
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177:I'm willing to help here.
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808:career stats in the Infobox
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717:provides a list, updated
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681:good article reassessment
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464:Category:Baseball players
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1110:Athletic of Philadelphia
964:Bill Kelly at Retrosheet
842:Bob Armstrong (baseball)
812:Bob Armstrong (baseball)
705:06:14, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
212:20:52, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
1371:On a similar note, the
637:Maroons and NL Hoosiers
548:Chicago White Stockings
541:Chicago White Stockings
124:Voting for the template
1102:Eckford Base Ball Club
1262:Infobox list of Teams
1217:Talk:1869 in baseball
1057:Milwaukee Cream Citys
832:notable before 1871?)
820:Joe Kernan (baseball)
322:Excelsior of Brooklyn
46:of past discussions.
1401:Alexander Cartwright
1395:Alexander Cartwright
1210:1868 baseball season
960:Fort Wayne Kekiongas
685:good article quality
1424:Baseball statistics
1418:Hands lost redirect
1147:Union of Morrisania
1098:Union of Morrisania
1048:Today I cleaned up
691:. --Happy editing!
655:article's talk page
1328:For example visit
1323:; League
1187:and #Amateur_clubs
1181:and #Amateur_clubs
847:list of categories
1297:or both that and
1269:Orange highlights
1221:Morrisania Unions
1094:Naming convention
1034:Orange highlights
818:, and 1 RBIs for
651:St. Louis Maroons
600:1889 World Series
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1215:Along with
1044:Early teams
755:Thank you.
693:Nehrams2020
165:another one
40:This is an
1428:Lou Sander
1246:"Ties". --
1125:Union club
1019:MLB Career
1015:MLB finale
838:Categories
794:Stub class
604:Kingturtle
458:, created
443:under the
217:Kick-start
156:MrBaseball
1011:MLB debut
871:something
373:NA vs. ML
144:Bookworm1
129:Bookworm1
115:Bookworm1
65:Archive 1
1448:Solicitr
1405:KAVEBEAR
1080:Neonblak
1075:instead?
962:. Visit
929:Neonblak
878:Neonblak
622:Neonblak
556:Neonblak
478:Neonblak
398:Neonblak
337:Neonblak
273:Neonblak
232:Neonblak
228:Cy Young
204:Neonblak
131:approves
95:Borgarde
81:Borgarde
74:Template
20: |
1382:Dewelar
1375:of the
897:matter.
744:If you
701:contrib
659:Dewelar
503:Dewelar
422:Dewelar
353:Dewelar
304:Dewelar
255:Dewelar
169:Soxrock
43:archive
1319:League
1315:League
1208:, and
1121:Unions
923:think.
905:think?
746:do not
379:NAPBBP
226:, and
89:Rename
1198:begin
1153:. --
1117:Union
757:Okip
736:: -->
735:: -->
734:: -->
719:daily
439:Move
385:into
318:NABBP
290:list.
180:jj137
16:<
1452:talk
1432:talk
1409:talk
1386:talk
1350:talk
1344:. --
1313:for
1252:talk
1241:...
1232:talk
1159:talk
1137:talk
1065:talk
997:talk
972:talk
913:talk
860:talk
802:-P64
776:and
723:BLPs
697:talk
689:here
663:talk
608:talk
585:talk
532:talk
507:talk
426:talk
389:and
357:talk
308:talk
259:talk
236:talk
208:talk
187:Talk
1346:P64
1311:MLB
1277:MLB
1248:P64
1228:P64
1155:P64
1133:P64
1061:P64
1007:MLB
993:P64
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