Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject China/Naming Conventions

1813:

using their common names is more a reflection of the linguistics of the English speaking world, then it is a judgement on who controls what. For nonpolitical articles, refering to a company "based in Taiwan" will be understood by most readers, while "based in the Republic of China" is an unconventional usage and is only going to raise eyebrows. Under these circumstances I'm adding my support to proposal #3 with the understanding that the official title still be used where appropriate. -

2320:

officially recognized as a country by most other countries in the world, but trying to split the two and make it seem like the ROC on Taiwan is identical as the ROC in China is ridiculous. Think about this. Taiwan is now a democracy. Could the government "move" again? Let's say there was a civil war in Taiwan and the ROC "moved" to the Pescadores. Do we now have the history of China as the history of the Pescadores? It makes no sense.

174:

comply with whatever the naming conventions NPOV section states is correct. It'll never get removed from that guideline, but that sentence will never be regarded as a useful guideline either. In any case, over the last few years of my involvement there has been steady progression to move anything titled with China to be specific to PRC or ROC, and IMHO, the more you keep them apart the better.

1264:. However, there are too many exceptions, intermediate cases, and contentious cases for it to work with any consistency. Some examples I have cited above. A few others that spring to mind might include "ethnicities of China" or "languages of China". What about "islands of Taiwan"? Is Kinmen an island of Taiwan? It is neither administratively nor geographically a part of Taiwan province/island. 2511:". These articles can't be renamed to "of Taiwan"; while an "of Taiwan" article could conceivably be spun off, the cut-off date will be completely arbitrary (1949, when the PRC was founded? 1971, when the UN gave up the idea that the ROC controlled "China"? When CKS died? After the end of martial law in Taiwan?) In other areas, "of Taiwan" has more historical continuity, like 3256:

these articles will have to be renamed. As a result it is more practical to name these on a case-by-case basis, but provide a list on a page called "Current ROC/PRC naming conventions" or something along those lines. I have added notes as to the case-by-case basis attempting to scrounge the best of NPOV possible. Feel free to disagree.

2090:

country in its entirety. In hundreds of conversation I have had with suppliers in China and Taiwan, I have never heard anyone refer to the "ROC" as such. Instead, BOTH my Chinese and Taiwanese contacts always refer to "Taiwan" . I recommend merging the articles under Taiwan and having a seperate section on the "ROC". --

604:

articles better, but I can't agree with these types of controversial mass renaming. 1) Because I think it's futile and invites revert-warring, and 2) because I prefer a case-by-case basis on article naming instead of abiding by a standard that may only exist in WP. But again - I do know that your intention is good.

1958:"Furthermore as a matter of fact the Republic of China governs not only Taiwan. A company based in Taiwan would automatically be based in the Republic of China (unless the time frame concerned is prior to 1945). But what about a company based on Quemoy? Is it based in Taiwan? Different people have different opinion." 2879:

possible, doesn't mean we can't be more consistent. Again, I assert there is no consistency now, and I challenge you to prove me wrong. NPOV, as I explained to Instantnood, is about referring to sources to support assertions made in articles, not about choosing politically neutral names for articles. --

468:), "Media in/of X", china-stub adds to "Category:China stubs" while china-geo-stub adds to "Category:People's Republic of China geography stubs" and china-struct-stub adds to "Category:Mainland China building and structure stubs". I hope you see deciding on a case-by-case basis is just going to be chaos. 269:

relation of the PRC, ROC, and Taiwan. Certainly when referencing official governmental organs, e.g. the ROC Executive Yuan, we should strive to use the official titles (abiet with some type of disambiguation). However for naming things like the economy article Ideogram just mentioned, or articles like

3187:

It is never a matter of debate whether "Taiwan" in common usage means Republic of China, to the extent that Lee Teng Hui was known commonly as the Taiwanese president. When it comes to neutral point of view, however, neutrality overrides common usage. Referring the whole Republic of China as "Taiwan"

3173:

The fundamental question we have to ask is whether common usage remains accurate. In some cases yes; in other cases, it's misleading. My opinion is that if it has anything to do with the government, use official names; if it doesn't then dont. It should be "parks in Taiwan" and "National parks of the

1992:

I just want to be specific about this, since it's a point of long-running contention in categories and stub categories. In the past, there's been renames of PRC cats to "mainland China", but also the creation of separate "mainland China" cats as children of their PRC counterparts. It's not clear to

1431:

Culture is usually considered to belong to a people and has deep historical roots, and should follow Geography of X. However, it is possible to speak of the modern Culture of the People's Republic of China distinct from the deep-rooted Culture of China. No need for Culture of the Republic of China.

720:

I support Ideogram's plan stated above with Hong Kong, Macau, and Tibet named separately separately. I find very little reason to ever use "Mainland China" in an article title. It just doesn't describe anything that is helpful to the reader. The only exception might be something like "Geography of

545:

and point to it the next time someone wants to change it. Then they will have to try to forge a new consensus. That's what Knowledge (XXG) is all about, standards are defined and enforced by consensus. Now, you may say that I can't achieve a consensus here in the first place, and you may be right,

516:

excludes information about Taiwan, even when it's geography. I think as it stands, a lot of the X of China articles have become intentionally ambiguous over the years as to whether or not it includes Taiwan. I foresee a lot of editors revert-warring these kinds of naming if you're going to do it on

398:

is perhaps analogous, yet all départements d'outre-mer, territoires d'outre-mer, etc., of France are integral parts of the French Republic, that few if not no article focuses only on the part of France in Europe, and as a result we rarely need to use the term in titles of Knowledge (XXG) articles and

393:

in titles serves the same purposes as disclaimers, and using it with disclaimers is the clearest and the most politically correct. Is there any other sovereign state on Earth which like the PRC defines such territories as Hong Kong and Macao to be part of itself? As far as I know, at least the United

235:

Actually I don't know why we have to set some kind of artificial consistency or standard that only exists in WP. I would prefer we name them on a case-by-case basis, on whatever best reflects real life, instead of using a standard that is more prevalent only inside of WP. Not everything is going to

3557:

I hope we can see some consistencies being drawn out here. As people have suggested before, anything that is "official" must have the PRC/ROC attachment, while anything that is civil in nature should simply use "China" and "Taiwan" without trying to conform to a largely unrelated political standard.

2815:

I think we do currently have naming conventions regarding the use of ROC vs. Taiwan. I don't know whether they are actually written down somewhere, but there more or less seems to be agreement how to handle the issue. In your list above, the ROC entries are in my opinion clearly at the only possible

2023:

No, I've generally been inclined to get rid of them, precisely because they exist on such an unsystematic basis, and because it seems to be an informal name for something that's not an official subdivision. I just don't think it follows either way from the current "option 3". Do we need a separate

1812:

I still see the whole thing as a question of semantics. No one is going to argue that the ROK controls everything south of the DMZ while the DPRK controls everything north of it, irrespective of whether or not each side acknowledges the other sides's right to do so. The choice to refer to both sides

1471:

Similar. General agreement, definitely on the first, overall governing concept. But I'm not sure we need separate articles for "History of Taiwan" and "History of ROC", for example, since the two are geographically co-terminous. This is like having separate articles for the Italian peninsula and the

797:

A simple rule of thumb when naming articles is simply scope. Is it something that has been around since before 1949? (e.g. Economy, Culture, Railways... etc) If so then "... of Taiwan" is fine. If not, then is it related to an official governmental body? (e.g. military, government offices... etc) If

654:

You are basically arguing that it is impossible to maintain consensus. If that were true, Knowledge (XXG) wouldn't work. There are all kinds of policies here that are maintained by consensus, how do you think those policies were formed? You don't seem to understand that discussing beforehand is a

2460:

Ok, there are slightly more people supporting #3 now, but Knowledge (XXG) is not a democracy and we still need to establish consensus. So please discuss. I think I answered the concern about edit-warring, what other concerns are there? Kusma, if you like I can come up with a list of the affected

2348:

the political situation, history and current interpretations. This page would in turn point to more detailed explanations of each naming / POV / political issue (we have no shortage of such pages, so people who want to know will have ready access to everything). This solution seems to me closest to

2165:

I'm not sure I'm entirely convinced by the "collapsing" arguments, but I'm utterly unimpressed by the alternative, the likely consequence of which seems to be "let's have no scheme at all, decide on a per-article and per-category basis, and where there's no per-article consensus, edit war" and edit

1255:

rules about when to use China and when not to (e.g. by replacing it with mainland China). As another example, does "culture of China" include Hong Kong culture or Taiwan culture? It's ambiguous and problematic. I would argue that in many contexts and in many sources it does. However, equating China

676:

I already explained that a case-by-case naming system confuses the reader. Do you think the Encyclopedia Britannica doesn't have a naming system? That's one huge advantage traditional encyclopedias have, they have a consistent editorial direction. You seem to think a naming system is contrary to

511:

I can see the problem with the different categories. They seem to be randomly categorised, for example, between X of PRC and X of China, without rhyme or logic. But as far as article names go, I'd prefer a case-by-case basis. I don't think readers will be confused with the different naming. And

3255:

For some of these articles I think it should be obvious that the naming is somewhat superfluous and unnecessary, and attempts to confine itself to a political standard rather than attribute it to practical and popular usage. Admittedly too, as the geopolitical status in the region evolves, some of

3158:

note that the point of Knowledge (XXG) is to reach consensus via discussion and voting in the straw poll above is not going to be used for any decision, it is only used to get a general sense of what people think. Please go through the list of affected articles above and note which items you feel

2781:

To answer your questions, it seems clear to me that "Taiwan" should refer to ROC after 1949, since that is when they retreated to Taiwan. Generally our articles are written to describe the present-day, and there is no ambiguity by referring to Taiwan. Articles about the history of the ROC before

2403:

Partial support. I'm not sure I'm entirely convinced by the "collapsing" arguments, but I'm utterly unimpressed by the alternative, the likely consequence of which seems to be "let's have no scheme at all, decide on a per-article and per-category basis, and where there's no per-article consensus,

2319:

20:59, 26 February 2007 (UTC) This is qualified support. First of all, the fact that this discussion is taking place on a China articles talk page is already biasing the whole thing. Second, the modern day ROC is really the same thing as Taiwan. You can say that the modern day Taiwan/ROC is not

2070:

Feels to me more like an add-on than a clarification. I'd like to see the question addressed specifically and separately, since for one thing, some people may have a different opinion on this than they do on the "mass renaming", and for another, because even if the #3 gets consensus (or at least,

1715:

Only recently; in many things, there is some continuity between the Republic of China when Taiwan was not a part of it and the Republic of China whose territory is almost only Taiwan. Those things (like the Constitution of the Republic of China) can't be simply called "of Taiwan", and it gets very

726:

It is not good enough to say "a lot of the X of China articles have become intentionally ambiguous over the years as to whether or not it includes Taiwan." Knowledge (XXG) does not practice self censorship. If you say "the People's Republic of China" for matters that occurred after 1949, everyone

2866:

No, we really don't have any naming conventions. If you think we do, feel free to explain them. There is no agreement, and every time some new editors come along it is impossible to explain to them why some articles are PRC/ROC and some are China/Taiwan. Then they edit war for a while. If you

1888:

The names don't really reflect their histories accurately. Many Taiwanese companies were taken over by the KMT/ROC machine after 1945 and they renamed them China blah blah blah or something similar. They tried to change things to be more Chinese just by changing their names. One reason to call

1764:

At times I was on the verge of comparisons with the Korean situation as well. However, we have to note that the political situation is quite different. The two Koreas do not explicitely refuse to recognise each other. They do not claim the entirety of each other's territory (or at least since the

603:

pointing people to the naming conventions guideline if they revert? Not that many people actually participate in discussions over at the naming conventions articles anyway. Editors will feel totally ambushed by controversial changes they don't agree with. I can agree that we need to categorise

2089:

Having two articles for the same country is confusing and mis-leading. There is not a separate article called "America" that just decribes the geography of the US and a seperate article "United States of America" describing its government. In English and common use, the term "Taiwan" denotes the

3116:

Two pieces of fact to note: i) "Taiwan" means what the Republic of China took from Japan following the end of the Second World War, and ii) Hong Kong and Macau are part of the People's Republic of China since 1997 and 1999, but they are not part of "Mainland China" (while Chongming, Hainan, the

2878:

I simply don't see what is strange or inconsistent about what I stated. Articles about the present day, which is most of them, should refer to Taiwan. Articles with history going back before 1949 should refer to ROC. What could be simpler? And again, just because complete consistency is not

2228:

Therefore, while I understand it's more convenient to follow common names, that's not what titles should follow, considering the importance of NPOV and accuracy to an encyclopædia. Redirects and disambiguation notices are already fulfilling convenience requirements to cater everybody's needs. —

268:

I would have to echo the sentiment regarding a flexible naming standard, especially on non-political, or articles with a broader scope. Like it or not to at least 90% of readers already associate the People's Republic of China with China as a whole, and couldn't distinguish (nor care) about the

173:

I've also expressed many times that nobody really disputes that "China" is the PRC, (even the old guard ROC recognizes that, they just say they no longer govern it and maintain they are the legitimate claim to be China). There are probably 100,000 references to China inside articles that don't

158:

treat a country by the name of some jurisdictional sub-division just because in the main it doesn't apply to some other subdivision. The existence of Hong Kong/Macao does not mean articles about the rest of the country should be titled mainland China. There are dozens of other countries with

1250:

Mainly NPOV, but also inconsistent treatment/common usage problems. For example, "China" is used differently in different contexts. In my experiences, in common usage in English generally speaking "China" today would encompass Hong Kong and Macau. However, if you are talkinga bout the Chinese

2527:

etc. Anyway, the situation here on Knowledge (XXG) may be messy, but this mirrors the real world situation of Taiwan. Most Taiwan-related articles seem to have made a pretty good choice between "Taiwan" and "ROC" depending on the context. I don't really see any articles that need renaming.

492:

I hope you can see that by simply applying the fundamental properties of these terms, namely that PRC and ROC are modern countries while China and Taiwan are ancient geographic regions (and Hong Kong is an exception) you can logically determine what any article or category should be called.

837:

Avoid mass renaming of articles with article names that are often subject to revert-warring, such as article names with the words "China", "People's Repbublic of China", "Taiwan", and "Republic of China", etc etc. Leave the naming of Chinese-related articles to be determined on a flexible

440:

I don't care if you want to call it "Economy of Taiwan" instead of "Economy of the Republic of China" as long as you can then tell me when and where to use "Economy of China" and "Economy of the People's Republic of China" and maybe "Economy of mainland China" and "Economy of Hong Kong".

39:

What we mostly have now is that articles relating to Politics, Government, and Economy are referred to as X of the PRC/ROC with additional X of Hong Kong and Macao, and articles relating to Geography, History before 1949, and Culture are referred to as X of China/Taiwan. Exceptions are

870:

Hong, your proposal is editorializing which doesn't belong in the proposal description. The proposals are supposed to specify 'what' not how. You don't see me putting my arguments in favor of my favorite proposal in the proposal description below. Have the courtesy to do the same.

3089:

All these involve stands-out places such as Quemoy and Matsu. We can't portray like Taiwan, as an offshore country in the Western Pacific, is occupying some geographically non-Taiwan islands along the Asian continent coast and deep in the middle of the South China Sea. Passer-by

2935:

exceptions. But it would help me a lot if you could go through the articles I listed and mark the ones you feel should not be renamed to China/Taiwan, so we can see what we are talking about. (Don't forget, after we finish the article names we also have the category names.)

2363:

I've been flipflopping in my mind on this issue for a while now. However, since this proposal codifies things that we already do anyway, it seems fair to write it down. However, my support is also contigent on the creation of a single page discussing these issues per JFG

311:

Of course this makes enforcement more difficult, and we will always face the possibility of "true believers" of one of any political camps trying to rename everything to fit their own interpretation of events, but will ultimately prove to be a better reflection of reality.

1167:

Before any kind of mass-renaming takes place, we'd need a lot more discussion, including more examples of what exactly would happen to individual article titles. I don't actually think consistency can be achieved (one man's consistency will be another's inconsistency).

1427:

History can be of a political entity or a place or a people, so we should have History of all four possibilities. History of the economy of X could cover PRC/ROC in modern times and China before that. (History of the economy of Taiwan would be difficult to write.)

1315:

In addition to what Sumple has mentioned, is the culture of Kinmen Taiwanese culture? Is the language spoken on Matsu a language of Taiwan? Is a Macau company a Chinese company? Strictly enforcing a China-Taiwan dichotomy is creating more biases and inaccuracies.

3573:

My proposed list only covers articles that would be renamed from PRC/ROC to China/Taiwan under my proposal. Since you are making a different proposal, you need to also address articles that would be renamed from China/Taiwan to PRC/ROC, for instance possibly

1971:"Where does this leave "mainland China" categories? But sign me up for anything that gets some sort of stability and consistency." In this proposal we would use "China" to describe all articles about the PRC but with the understanding that in some cases like 1765:

last decade or so in the South), and nor do they claim to be the sole "Korea" in the world. These are the primary issues over China which results in names becoming a senstive issues. In Korea, however, we see much less contentions over names, if at all.--

1420:

PRC/ROC are political entities from modern history and China/Taiwan are geographic entities that have always existed. Certainly Government of X, Foreign relations of X, and Politics of X should use PRC/ROC. And Geography of X should be China/Taiwan.

236:

work perfectly in that "PRC" should be used for everything, or "mainland China" be used for everything. Now having said that, I do want to ask for more of a notice and concensus before anybody start mass moving articles and mass emptying categories.

2949:) and other official institutions (like the military) to stay at "of the Republic of China". Culture, economy, sports, tourism, anything not so much government-connected should be at "of Taiwan". I hope that makes a more or less clear separation. 2843:

Note that your consistency for "the present day situation" implies that we make strange choices or become inconsistent in our treatment of the history of the ROC. I don't think complete consistency is possible, and when in doubt, neutrality is an

710:(outdent) You seem to think there are armies of revert-warriors hiding in the bushes waiting to pounce on any changes. What are you so afraid of? I have already made some major moves and I've found that most articles are just abandoned. -- 761:

Well, unfortunately this isn't Encyclopedia Britannica. I don't even know why you think mass renaming of controversial article names is ever a good idea. But hey, go for it. I can't stop you. I'm just stating that I don't support it.

1692:

No, it's easier to understand for new users, because it is simpler to state (just look at the description) and it corresponds to common usage. The only proposal guaranteed to avoid edit-warring is proposal #1, making no changes at all.

414:(outdent) Inconsistency leads to confusion. We should expect Knowledge (XXG) readers to click on links and read more than one article and if we can't explain why we pick PRC/ROC or China/Taiwan then they will never learn the difference. 2137:

Most people around the world understand "Taiwan", but not "Republic of China". Insisting on all articles on Taiwan being labelled "X in the ROC" seems to me just being done to placate people that support the Chinese view on Taiwan. --

77:

was in favor of keeping Taiwan as the more commonly used term. Again, if we really want to collapse all ROC/Taiwan articles to Taiwan (and all PRC/China/Mainland China articles to China) I can deal, although it would be more work.

847:

I don't see a compelling enough reason to mass rename article names that are possibly controversial and prone to revert-warring. Plus, I think it's better to examine the naming of these articles on a flexible case-by-case basis.

2888:

I don't think we are too far apart in our positions. I just think that there are some articles which are about both present day and past things, and I prefer the historical continuity POV to the "current consistency" POV. I think

567:

be included as well, since that's also a controversial topic, which people of different political views regard as being or not being part of China, and is also inconsistently applied and as messy as other categories. Just look at

2212:

is creating even more trouble, as that's implying territories under the ROC (i.e. Taiwan (including the Pescadores, Orchid Island, Green Island, etc.), Quemoy, Matsu, Taiping (with Chung-Chou) and the Pratas) not to be part of

1068:

Oh now you didn't ask me to specify before. Just read proposal #2. I think it's well-written, and it contains explanations of why it might be a good idea to rename the articles as specified in the proposal. For example:

1612:

Easily understood by members of WP:China it may be, but this will quite inevitably bring on edit wars and lengthy debates spurred by misunderstandings from new users and others unaware of the Project's decision or logic.

201:. My purpose here is to impose a consistent naming convention on all the China related articles. I've looked at almost one thousand articles and I am perfectly capable of fixing them all to follow a naming convention, 1664:

I think you are failing to consider the possibility that the current system, having no standard, is more likely to invite revert-warring from new users who don't understand it, because there is nothing to understand.

31:

I would like us once and for all to agree on a set of naming conventions to handle the whole China/PRC/ROC/Mainland China/Hong Kong and Macao/Taiwan mess. I don't really care what we agree on as long as we apply it

1734:

Collapse ROC/Taiwan to Taiwan and PRC/China to China. Use ROC and PRC only where it is part of an official title and in historical contexts, e.g. Constitution of the Republic of China and History of the Republic of

337:

I agree it has to be flexible and applied on a case-by-case basis, and as a matter of fact this has been the case for some time. Nevertheless I'm afraid for articles such as economy and culture, distinction between

1259:

When I said I think #3 is good in general principles, what I mean is that a China/Taiwan dichotomy based on the PRC/ROC administration dichotomy, with a flexible exception for Hong Kong, does reflect common usage

512:

yeah they read more than one article - that's what wikilinking and the search function are for. For one thing, it's going to get controversial if you name something for "China" on an article that either includes

817: 3319: 2593: 1293:

We can go through the list of all the affected articles and decide by consensus what to do with the exceptions. I am already preparing such a list to answer Kusma; there really are not many affected articles.

103: 2515:. One problem is that "Taiwan" is often ambiguous, referring to either the geographical entity, or the province of the ROC, (or the hypothetical province of the PRC), or to the country usually called Taiwan. 150:

Anyone remotely interested in looking up Chinese articles will quickly discover the political differences between all these: PRC/ROC/TW/HK/MO. This has been fairly stable for awhile, why are you bringing it

2404:

edit war" and edit wars on every article and category separately" alternative. Where does this leave "mainland China" categories? But sign me up for anything that gets some sort of stability and consistency.

636:

You are not listening to me. Why do you think I planted invitations everywhere to join the discussion? Do you really think an editor who revert wars while refusing to discuss will gain the support of the

3377: 2638: 2503:

Yes, I'd like to see a list of affected articles. I think there are many articles where we should say "Republic of China" instead of "Taiwan", especially when there is historical continuity. Like "

1212:

Put another way: we can give it a try first and if there is a lot of edit-warring we can stop. If there is little edit-warring then there is no problem. Would any of you be in favor of that? --

3438:(This is basically all civil. Think about it from a tourist perspective. Do you hear them say, hey I'm going to China! -or- hey, I'm going to the PRC! Therefore, "China" is more appropriate here.) 2340:

reality and usage, and be accessible to all readers. For the sake of correctness and sensitivity to different points of view, add a prominent disclaimer to the top of each article, pointing to a

2166:

wars on every article and category separately" alternative. Where does this leave "mainland China" categories? But sign me up for anything that gets some sort of stability and consistency.

3491:(unecessary. most of these banks are private institutions that couldn't care less whether they earn money off of mainland, Hong Kong, or Taiwanese. which is why it is probably better to have 3120:

The simple rule is that - a) articles with scope beyond should not be titled "Taiwan", and b) articles not covering Hong Kong and Macau should not be titled "People's Republic of China". -

1201:

edit warring is not supported by any evidence, it is just a generalized fear. If your only reason to support the status quo is to avoid edit-warring, I submit your reasoning is invalid. --

1982:

However, I agree with you that any consistent standard is better than what we have now, so if you want to treat China/mainland China differently, feel free to propose it for discussion. --

1222:

I've decided on my vote. While I think #3 is good in general principles, in practical applications it is likely to run into too many problems. As a result, I'm voting for the status quo. --

1182:

I think proposal #3 is quite clear, and much better than the current situation. There may be individual problem cases, but I think they will be few, minor, and resolvable by consensus. --

471:

If we can settle on a reasonable naming standard, we can explain it in a paragraph or two and link to it from all the introductory articles. I don't think it's that hard, you just have to

295:. More complicated, I'm open to using either "(Republic of China)" or "(Taiwan)" in the title disambig, but the ROC/Taiwan disambig should be mentioned somewhere in the body of the article. 3423: 2673: 2263:

NPOV is about being balanced to sources. Creating a China/Taiwan dichotomy is not balanced: many sources would treat Taiwan as a part of China, while others would treat it as separate. --

2246:

not maintaining some kind of political neutrality between PRC/ROC and Taiwan independence. You can't find any sources that apply the ROC/Taiwan distinction like Knowledge (XXG) does. --

2992:

has the same problem: "Taiwan" is a bit imprecise in that context. Perhaps a better name would be to always use "Republic of China (Taiwan)", but I am sure that has other disadvantages.

2945:

I can live with renaming most of them to "of Taiwan", although I am not really convinced what is best. I would like those articles concerned with the constitution, the government (say,

62:

is that the PRC currently encompasses Hong Kong and Macau but those areas are best covered under articles of their own. This doesn't bother me because we have a simple disclaimer in

346:

has to be better maintained. For instance, Quemoy, Matsu, etc., are part of the economy of the ROC. They're however not culturally part of Taiwan and are generally excluded from the

3447: 3337: 2693: 2608: 2071:'supermajority') support, then "mainland China" fans will doubtless ignore this on the basis that it wasn't explicitly part of the original proposition, and thus "controversial". 3265: 2548: 1438:

There is also the China/PRC/mainland China/Hong Kong issue. The only examples I can think of here are Economy of X and Demographics of X. Economy and Demographics are measured

3313: 2588: 3307: 2583: 3511:(again, this is very confusing for people not familiar with the geopolitical situation. but this will have to do b/c there is no better alternative of putting this clearly.) 3143:

Is there a President of Mainland China? Is there a Constitution of Mainland China? Why should Hong Kong and Macau be covered in an article on Education in Mainland China? -

1961:

We are only to use ROC in political context, so I think in this case we would still use Taiwan unless it specifically asks for the country. Then we would put ROC (Taiwan).--

3355: 3289: 2871:

you will see that it is entirely about the present-day, except for a list of engagements which doesn't belong in the article at all. You give no reason for not calling it

2623: 2568: 3502: 2981: 2730: 2778:

There it is. I might have missed some, but I think all the important ones are there. Feel free to note the cases where we should not replace PRC/ROC with China/Taiwan.

2192:. The rationale was that whereas the common name principle was acknowledged and considered, NPOV has a higher ground. According to Jimmy Wales, NPOV is "non-negotiable". 3530: 3441: 2989: 2750: 2688: 437:. Browse a little. There is no consistency at all, because everybody names their own private articles without regard for any of the others. That's what I'm here for. 52:. We also have History of the PRC/ROC which concentrate on the history of those political entities rather than the history of a geographic region or a group of people. 2988:

can't be renamed to "of Taiwan", since "Taiwan" has a geographical meaning as an archipelago that does not include the whole territory currently controlled by the ROC.

3429: 2678: 1306:

Also, even if there are exceptions, it would be more regular than the current situation, in which every article and category name is treated as its own exception. --

3405: 3399: 3331: 3283: 3277: 2658: 2653: 2603: 2563: 2558: 3514: 2740: 1993:

me from #3 whether it permits or disallows something corresponding to the latter. If we're going to have these, it would be prudent to say in what circumstances.

1251:

economy, the situation becomes more complicated, and very often it would not include Hong Kong and Macau. I don't think such problems could be solved with adopting

389:

unacceptable? The South China Morning Post uses it, the New York Times uses it, the TIME magazine uses it, the People's Daily uses it, and the BBC uses it. Using

3417: 3325: 2668: 2598: 2798:

is mostly about, and should be solely about, the current form of the Military, and the list of past engagements should be moved to one or more other articles.

727:

agrees that it does not include Taiwan, whether that is good or bad. "Medicine of China" should have a corresponding "Medicine of Taiwan" article, and so on.

3393: 3301: 2833: 2772: 2648: 2578: 496:

Again, I'm not wedded to any specific detailed proposal; if you can come up with an equally logical alternative rationale I'll be happy to implement it. --

3387: 3361: 3343: 2643: 2628: 2613: 1867:

Instantnood your example of Quemoy is bunk. That's because you are false defining Taiwan to mean Taiwan Island when that's rarely how people use the word.

882:

All right, I moved possibly objectionable commentary below to "Discussion". Can we do the same here? Not to mention you are repeating yourself again. --

2142: 1435:

Medicine and healthcare systems are determined by governments, so follow Government of X, again excepting the fact that China existed before the PRC/ROC.

1197:

you will see that there is considerable edit-warring just to try to maintain the status quo. The assertion that trying to impose a standard will lead to

170:

article could be updated quickly to include an overview of HK/MO information, retitled to be about the PRC, and link to those more expansive sub-articles.

3476: 3435: 3295: 2715: 2683: 2573: 2504: 1443: 449: 292: 63: 998: 517:

a mass scale. I know your intention is good here, but the implementation just sounds impractical considering the nature of WP editing and WP editors.

3485:(basically fair, but you don't want people to be confused. Therefore, with practicality in mine, this is more appropriately, "human rights in Taiwan".) 2392: 542: 137: 3508: 2985: 2735: 99: 2370:

02:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC) tentative support. I'm traveling and didn't read all the above discussion over the last month, but this looks right.

2200:

equals the entirety of the modern ROC (e.g. considerable number of pro-Taiwanese independence people never consider Quemoy and Matsu to be part of

1575:

Collapse ROC/Taiwan to Taiwan and PRC/China to China. Use ROC and PRC only where it is part of an official title and in historical contexts, e.g.

486:

I know I said that I don't care, but just to prove to you it's not difficult to determine a set of rules, I'll give you the ones I've been using.

394:

Kingdom doesn't, while the Netherlands is defined to be part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, together with Aruba and the Netherlands Antilles.

218:

Now if you can pull your head out of your political position, just pick one of the three possibilities I listed and explain why you prefer it. --

1912:

Also, it says to use Taiwan instead of the ROC, not Taiwan island or Taiwan province. Taiwan is the common name of the ROC, so it's a fact that

3488: 2725: 782:

No encyclopædia can be too layman. In some ways it might be considered by some to be a little pedantic before they actually started reading. —

595:

Man, that's just inviting revert-warring. Since when have naming conventions stopped revert-warring, especially if you plan on name changing

3482: 2894: 2720: 2159: 1576: 3205:

Sorry, I don't really get what's not neutral about it? And also, there is actually a article in the Chinese version of "Military of Taiwan (

2901:

actually discusses the historical origins of this flag, which are completely unrelated to Taiwan. A possible way out would be a new article

1706:

I support this proposal, but it would be better if we mention in the articles that Taiwan is only a common name for the Republic of China.--

1586:

Normally China would be understood to include Hong Kong and Macau, except as noted. However, there would also be separate articles such as

430: 2783: 478:

And remember that we have redirects. It is silly to insist that "X of Taiwan" is easier to find when we can just plop a redirect there.

1602:

This is simple and corresponds to common usage, so it would be easy to understand and less controversial. It is more work, however. --

281: 59: 2045:

No, I've clarified here what I mean in this proposal. If anyone disagrees, they can make another proposal and we can discuss that. --

1750:" instead of "Republic of Korea" on ROK related articles, I am leaning towards this proposal... unless someone wants to suggest to the 17: 3460: 3408:(does this include HK prostitution? it is a civil issue, therefore more appropriately, it should be "Prostitution in mainland China".) 3271: 2946: 2837: 2705: 2553: 2516: 1481:

FYI, Taiwan wasn't part of the ROC until 1945, and Taiwan makes up more than 95% of ROC territory (yet not coterminous) since 1949. —

2845: 3536: 3520: 2868: 2821: 2795: 2755: 2745: 2508: 2491:

It looks like it will be some time before we reach consensus, but if that discussion is still there, I will post our decision. --

3546: 3051: 2817: 2760: 1654: 1580: 1494: 1345: 1099: 969: 920: 858: 772: 614: 573: 563:

Neutral on the proposals so far, but I suggest if you do suggest new and consistent naming conventions, I suggest guidelines for

527: 461: 246: 1497:. The ROC governed all of China from 1912 to 1949, so the history of the ROC is not coterminous with the history of Taiwan. -- 3549:(again, this is mainly a civil matter. You don't hear people say "I went to the ROC last week and got a great tan!" Therefore, 3411: 3349: 2663: 2618: 2413:

Replace "mainland China" with "China" in all category and article names. In cases where Hong Kong is treated separately (e.g.

2791: 1447: 1010: 167: 49: 3174:

Republic of China" (in vs. of is a somewhat rough indicator)...."Military of the Republic of China" "Tourism in Taiwan"...--

677:

the laws of nature, but the fact is we are here to organize information and a case-by-case system is no organization at all.

2006:

My opinion is to forbid "mainland China" in all category names. However, if you have reasons to differ, I will listen. --

838:

case-by-case basis rather than named by an artificial standard that may only exist on WP and not necessarily in real life.

3470: 2928: 2909:

since the ROC military fled to Taiwan after the Chinese Civil War. In the context of the Taiwanese independence movement,

2906: 2898: 2890: 2825: 2710: 1737:

Kusma, this proposal says that we still will use PRC or ROC where it is part of an official title in historical context.--

2471: 1089:

Etc, etc, so on and so forth. They serve to explain the proposal, and they belong in the description of the proposal.

3316:(before UN recognized PRC, most of the world still recognized ROC as the legitimate Chinese government, therefore fair) 3381: 3231: 3039: 2787: 2971:. Also, you haven't offered an opinion on all the PRC articles (not to mention "(China)" and "mainland China"). -- 3371: 2633: 434: 180:

in/of, I don't care enough about prepositions in titles. There is a wiki-wide naming convention standard for it.

3586: 3567: 3238: 3213: 3192: 3178: 3167: 3147: 3134: 3124: 3094: 3084: 3070: 3001: 2975: 2958: 2940: 2922: 2883: 2857: 2809: 2537: 2495: 2482: 2465: 2449: 2441: 2421: 2400: 2383: 2374: 2360: 2333: 2324: 2310: 2301: 2292: 2272: 2250: 2236: 2170: 2131: 2094: 2075: 2049: 2028: 2010: 1997: 1986: 1965: 1945: 1924: 1893: 1861: 1817: 1807: 1794: 1769: 1758: 1741: 1723: 1710: 1697: 1679: 1669: 1659: 1639: 1630: 1617: 1606: 1553: 1532: 1513: 1501: 1488: 1476: 1466: 1409: 1396: 1388: 1380: 1369: 1350: 1320: 1310: 1280: 1241: 1231: 1216: 1205: 1186: 1175: 1160: 1137: 1104: 1043: 1014: 974: 942: 925: 901: 886: 875: 863: 824: 802: 789: 777: 752: 736: 714: 698: 619: 580: 550: 532: 500: 406: 368: 316: 251: 222: 184: 177:

Taiwan is fine as a common name for the ROC, even the KMT say it. I wish people'd get over themselves on that one.

144: 131: 110: 82: 66:. But if we really wanted to split up articles into X of Mainland China and X of Hong Kong and Macao I can deal, 465: 58:

I have no problem with imposing the current system on the exceptions. One objection raised in an old debate at

2512: 124: 120: 1799:

As I mentioned, it was particularly with regards to South Korea in the past decade or so. Please refer to its

3075:

Yes, probably, yes, maybe (Kinmen stands out a bit), maybe, probably, yes. All should be at least redirects.

1674:

Irrespective of which one we go with I suspect we're going to have plenty of edit wars anyhow.</cynic: -->

910:

Actually your proposals contain explanations on why they are good proposals. That's what my proposal does.

3533:(can't say much. again it is confusing, plus politically sensitive. this is the unpractical but only option) 3496: 3047: 2913:." That is still a bit awkward, but simply renaming the article is not going to provide a good result here. 2910: 1787:" - They can't refuse to recognise each other ever since both of them join the UN on September 17, 1991. — 1587: 1424:

An Economy must follow the laws set by the country it belongs to and should follow Government and Politics.

154:

I've said many times that using "mainland China" as the title for anything is politically unacceptable. We

694:

Basically you are repeating yourself. I invite you to take some time and think about what I am saying. --

3579: 3517:(this is regulated by the gov, but its uses are largely civil. therefore it is fair if this used "Taiwan") 3492: 3130:

How would you name articles which covers all of the People's Republic of China, on just about any topic?--

3043: 1941:

That's like Great Britain or Holland. They are common names for the United Kingdom and the Netherlands. -

285: 74: 41: 1830:

connotates any claim of territory or legitimacy, not to mention secession. That's not the case with with

1803:

with regards to this, unless you have not been updating yourself on Korean affairs for the past decade.--

163:, period. Most articles contain a simple disclaimer that HK/MO are written separately and that is enough. 3235: 3210: 2298: 2233: 2156: 2128: 1962: 1921: 1858: 1791: 1738: 1707: 1529: 1510: 1485: 1463: 1317: 1157: 786: 749: 403: 365: 3304:(this, although ran by the government, covers some pre-1949 history, therefore it is subject to debate) 1889:

things in Taiwan Taiwan/Taiwanese is because it prevents it from being confused with pre-1945 entities.

2380: 2091: 3209:)," perhaps we can translate that, and merge the current article:Military of the ROC into that one.-- 2479: 1976: 1650: 1591: 1341: 1095: 965: 916: 854: 768: 610: 523: 453: 242: 2964: 1850:(unless the time frame concerned is prior to 1945). But what about a company based on Quemoy? Is it 1360: 3374:(these ministries are a pain. They should technically fit into the "official designation" category) 3091: 3035: 2520: 2446: 2371: 2367: 1364: 181: 3540: 3524: 3206: 3059: 3055: 2968: 2389: 2139: 1716:

hard to stay neutral on the independence issue if the article is named "Constitution of Taiwan".

1006: 422: 92: 2204:, PRC government doesn't group Quemoy and Matsu to its claimed Taiwan Province, etc.). Equating 1751: 1746:

Quite frankly, I can see this whole thing going either way. However, in light of the usage of "

1442:; mainland China is not a country so Economy and Demographics of mainland China doesn't work. 3575: 3563: 3550: 3189: 3144: 3121: 3063: 2321: 2316: 1942: 1890: 457: 303: 299: 277: 270: 116: 45: 3365: 2414: 2268: 2230: 2153: 2125: 1972: 1855: 1788: 1507: 1482: 1460: 1405: 1276: 1227: 783: 746: 445: 400: 362: 106:

so I moved it. So now we need someone to write Media of the People's Republic of China. --

2475: 2350: 897:

discussion. It gives your opinion of all the other options, and is not necessary here. --

3080: 2997: 2954: 2918: 2853: 2533: 1800: 1720: 1645: 1393: 1377: 1336: 1172: 1090: 960: 911: 849: 813: 763: 605: 518: 426: 288:. Should contain disambig text in the article itself on the relation of the ROC to Taiwan. 237: 88: 1842:

Furthermore as a matter of fact the Republic of China governs not only Taiwan. A company

1528:

Taiwan wasn't part of "China" back before 1945. And many people still think it isn't.--

2902: 2872: 2829: 1614: 1473: 569: 418: 3420:(incorporate some historical background in this, we can scrap the "People's Republic") 1779: 1549:

Under the current conventions, ROC != China. And neither is the PRC for that matter. -

3583: 3164: 3067: 2972: 2937: 2880: 2875:; surely you don't expect a naming convention to depend on what "looks silly" to you. 2806: 2492: 2462: 2438: 2418: 2357: 2289: 2247: 2046: 2007: 1983: 1781: 1694: 1666: 1636: 1603: 1498: 1307: 1238: 1213: 1202: 1183: 1134: 1040: 1002: 939: 898: 883: 872: 821: 733: 711: 695: 547: 497: 291:

Articles concerning official bodies that require disambiguaton in their titles: e.g.

276:

Articles predominantly concerned with official bodies or contain ROC in their names:

219: 141: 128: 107: 79: 1078:

Culture is usually considered to belong to a people and has deep historical roots...

745:

is not a term to distinguish Tibet from the rest of China or the rest of the PRC. —

3559: 3414:(this is half civil, half government. so this is subject to debate. but this works) 3131: 2307: 1814: 1804: 1766: 1755: 1676: 1627: 1550: 799: 313: 298:

Articles predominantly concerned with nonofficial issues, or with a broader scope:

3432:(mostly civil in nature, although gov. is involved. perhaps just "China" here too) 1459:

Generally agree (not all details), but must be applied on a case-by-case basis. —

1156:

I agree with HongQiGong. Each entry should be considered on a case-by-case basis.

159:

various level of sub-divisions and none of them get this kind of treatment. X is

2264: 1747: 1472:

Italian state, when the latter could simply form a later portion of the former.

1401: 1272: 1223: 1039:

If you can't specify what text you are talking about then you have no point. --

2225:

would, likewise, be implying that Hong Kong and Macao are not part of the PRC.

3426:(government-sponsored, but mostly civil in nature. just "China" is fine here.) 3175: 3076: 2993: 2950: 2914: 2849: 2529: 1717: 1385: 1374: 1169: 2805:

to be better than what we have now, which is no naming convention at all. --

2104:

is as inaccurate as (if not more inaccurate than) calling the United Kingdom

1975:

it doesn't really apply to Hong Kong and Macau. We already have the article

1267:

Adopting #3, I think, will tend to lead to either much confusion or too many

655:

way to deal with controversy. If we come to an agreement, the mass renaming

2905:

that says "The Republic of China (often called "Taiwan") currently uses the

2397: 2167: 2072: 2025: 1994: 1979:. The term "mainland China" would not appear in article or category names. 577: 3286:(statistics usually only evaluate the mainland China area, therefore fair) 2984:

can't be renamed to "of Taiwan"; I don't see a strong case for splitting.

2176:

It was a long process few years back that folks had decided to stick with

1193:

I would like to tackle the issue of potential edit-warring head on. From

55:

The categories are also confused but that can be fixed relatively easily.

3380:(see above. in this specific case maybe this could just be shortened to " 3352:(sketchy. why not have an entire article for all these Chinese entities?) 2824:

into pre- and post-civil war articles is rather unnatural, and to rename

2330: 938:

If you find such text feel free to move it to the discussion section. --

546:

but you can still choose whether to help me towards that goal or not. --

444:

There are many cases like this: "Medicine in X", "Culture of X" (we have

385:(response to user:SchmuckyTheCat's comment at 03:14, February 18) Why is 3444:(Partly gov-run, but basically civil in application. Therefore, "China") 959:

Why would I do that? I think they belong in the proposal description.

820:

for an example. All votes other than "Support" will not be counted. --

1778:" - Please refer to Article 3 of the 1987 Constitution of South Korea. 818:

Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Military history/Coordinators/February 2007

2963:

That sounds a lot like proposal #2. I don't quite see the reason for

2801:

It is important to note that our naming convention doesn't have to be

2524: 2201: 2980:

I don't have an opinion on the PRC articles. To your new additions:

2336:

For the sake of simplicity, apply this naming convention to reflect

659:. No individual editor can revert-war for long against a consensus. 2820:, a bad stub where the name is the least of its problems. To split 2100:

As Privacy has suggested above, referring the Republic of China as

2214: 1785:

The two Koreas do not explicitely refuse to recognise each other.

798:

so, then "... of the Republic of China" with relevent disambigs. -

564: 3320:

Government control of the media in the People's Republic of China

2594:

Government control of the media in the People's Republic of China

1675:

Anyhow, I need some time to think this over before I vote on it.-

104:

Government control of the media in the People's Republic of China

3159:

should not be renamed to use China/Taiwan, and most importantly

1083:

Medicine and healthcare systems are determined by governments...

1073:

An Economy must follow the laws set by the country it belongs...

893:

You really don't get it, do you? What you have written above

3450:(is healthcare even one word? "China" will do fine here too.) 3378:

Ministry of Public Security of the People's Republic of China

2639:

Ministry of Public Security of the People's Republic of China

543:

Knowledge (XXG):Naming conventions (Chinese)#Political NPOV

138:

Knowledge (XXG):Naming conventions (Chinese)#Political NPOV

2794:

to cover the past with continuity before 1949. Similarly

2417:) a comment will be placed in the article noting this. -- 193:

Almost nothing you said is relevant to the discussion. I

1776:

They do not claim the entirety of each other's territory

3424:

Science and technology in the People's Republic of China

2674:

Science and technology in the People's Republic of China

2478:. Could the consensus, if reached, be expressed there? 1194: 541:

If we achieve a consensus here we can write it down at

357: 353: 349: 197:

which naming convention you want to use, as long as we

732:

I guess those are just a few thoughts on the matter.--

3463:(uh... sketchy. This article only contains education 3338:

Internet censorship in the People's Republic of China

2782:

1949 would be clearly labeled with the dates such as

2609:

Internet censorship in the People's Republic of China

3448:

Women's healthcare in the People's Republic of China

3266:

Anti-Secession Law of the People's Republic of China

2694:

Women's healthcare in the People's Republic of China

2549:

Anti-Secession Law of the People's Republic of China

1754:

folks that they change their naming conventions... -

1450:

have disclaimers that they don't apply to Hong Kong

273:, I believe the common term is just fine. Examples: 3314:

Foreign relations of the People's Republic of China

2784:

Transportation in the Republic of China (1911-1949)

2589:

Foreign relations of the People's Republic of China

123:. If you are interested in this guy he also wrote 3503:List of finance ministers of the Republic of China 3467:, therefore "Taiwan" is perhaps more appropriate.) 3308:Foreign Minister of the People's Republic of China 2982:List of finance ministers of the Republic of China 2731:List of finance ministers of the Republic of China 2584:Foreign Minister of the People's Republic of China 2523:, although the latter does not explicitly include 2461:articles and we can go through them in detail. -- 205:. That's why I'm bringing it up now, because I'm 3531:Administrative divisions of the Republic of China 3356:Military budget of the People's Republic of China 3346:(distinct entity from HK, MO, TW, therefore fair) 3290:Economic reform in the People's Republic of China 2990:Administrative divisions of the Republic of China 2931:; as I said, I never claimed that there would be 2836:again is the only NPOV choice I see, and mirrors 2751:Administrative divisions of the Republic of China 2624:Military budget of the People's Republic of China 2569:Economic reform in the People's Republic of China 1506:Taiwan wasn't governed by the ROC before 1945. — 3442:Transportation in the People's Republic of China 3272:Communications in the People's Republic of China 2689:Transportation in the People's Republic of China 2554:Communications in the People's Republic of China 1237:What kind of problems are you worried about? -- 3515:List of national parks of the Republic of China 3430:Social issues in the People's Republic of China 2741:List of national parks of the Republic of China 2679:Social issues in the People's Republic of China 3406:Prostitution in the People's Republic of China 3400:Property Law of the People's Republic of China 3332:Human rights in the People's Republic of China 3284:Demographics of the People's Republic of China 3278:Constitution of the People's Republic of China 2786:or with "History of ...". Thus we would have 2659:Prostitution in the People's Republic of China 2654:Property Law of the People's Republic of China 2604:Human rights in the People's Republic of China 2564:Demographics of the People's Republic of China 2559:Constitution of the People's Republic of China 1854:? Different people have different opinion. — 1822:It's never a matter of dispute since neither 8: 3418:Rural life in the People's Republic of China 3326:Government of the People's Republic of China 2669:Rural life in the People's Republic of China 2599:Government of the People's Republic of China 3394:President of the People's Republic of China 3302:Education in the People's Republic of China 2893:is in the same catagory (name wise) as the 2834:Taiwan Province, People's Republic of China 2773:Taiwan Province, People's Republic of China 2649:President of the People's Republic of China 2579:Education in the People's Republic of China 115:Then there's somebody's quirky pet project 3477:Foreign relations of the Republic of China 3388:Politics of the People's Republic of China 3362:Military of the People's Republic of China 3344:Internet in the People's Republic of China 3274:(ran by government mostly, therefore fair) 2716:Foreign relations of the Republic of China 2644:Politics of the People's Republic of China 2629:Military of the People's Republic of China 2614:Internet in the People's Republic of China 2505:Foreign relations of the Republic of China 1256:with PRC would run against such a meaning. 348:relevant Knowledge (XXG) article, such as 293:National Police Agency (Republic of China) 3436:Tourism in the People's Republic of China 3296:Economy of the People's Republic of China 2684:Tourism in the People's Republic of China 2574:Economy of the People's Republic of China 1444:Economy of the People's Republic of China 450:Culture of the People's Republic of China 64:Economy of the People's Republic of China 3509:List of islands of the Republic of China 2986:List of islands of the Republic of China 2848:, consistency is a nice optional extra. 2736:List of islands of the Republic of China 3527:" redirect there and we should be fine) 2792:History of foreign relations of the ROC 2024:consensus-gathering exercise on this? 100:Media of the People's Republic of China 3489:List of banks in the Republic of China 2790:describing the present situation, and 2726:List of banks in the Republic of China 489:(proposal moved to Proposal #2 below) 18:Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject China 3483:Human rights in the Republic of China 2895:Constitution of the Republic of China 2721:Human rights in the Republic of China 1577:Constitution of the Republic of China 7: 995:Who's running this poll, you or me? 1644:Hardly means we should invite it. 431:Category:People's Republic of China 282:Government of the Republic of China 60:Talk:Demographics of mainland China 3461:Education in the Republic of China 3034:So does that mean it's ok to have 2947:President of the Republic of China 2838:Fujian Province, Republic of China 2706:Education in the Republic of China 2517:Geography of the Republic of China 2472:Category:Economy of mainland China 24: 3537:Politics of the Republic of China 3521:Military of the Republic of China 2869:Military of the Republic of China 2822:Military of the Republic of China 2796:Military of the Republic of China 2756:Politics of the Republic of China 2746:Military of the Republic of China 2509:Military of the Republic of China 161:of the People's Republic of China 3547:Tourism in the Republic of China 3298:(ran by government, fair enough) 3052:List of national parks in Taiwan 2818:Tourism in the Republic of China 2761:Tourism in the Republic of China 1635:ROFL. I wish I'd said that. -- 1581:History of the Republic of China 1495:History of the Republic of China 574:Category:Tibet Autonomous Region 462:Culture of the Republic of China 68:as long as we make it consistent 3412:Public health in mainland China 3350:List of banks in mainland China 2664:Public health in mainland China 2619:List of banks in mainland China 3553:is the more practical option.) 3479:(fair and obviously necessary) 1848:based in the Republic of China 1626:We don't have those already? - 1448:Demographics of mainland China 834:No mass renaming of articles. 168:Demographics of mainland China 50:Demographics of mainland China 1: 3471:Flag of the Republic of China 3292:(government initiative, fair) 2929:Flag of the Republic of China 2907:Flag of the Republic of China 2899:Flag of the Republic of China 2891:Flag of the Republic of China 2826:Flag of the Republic of China 2711:Flag of the Republic of China 2325:20:59, 26 February 2007 (UTC) 2311:20:28, 24 February 2007 (UTC) 2302:00:20, 20 February 2007 (UTC) 2293:03:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 1894:20:50, 26 February 2007 (UTC) 1862:20:38, 24 February 2007 (UTC) 1818:20:28, 24 February 2007 (UTC) 1808:14:17, 25 February 2007 (UTC) 1795:20:15, 24 February 2007 (UTC) 1770:17:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC) 1759:04:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC) 1742:19:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC) 1724:14:40, 20 February 2007 (UTC) 1711:00:25, 20 February 2007 (UTC) 1698:13:40, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 1680:04:23, 20 February 2007 (UTC) 1670:04:19, 20 February 2007 (UTC) 1660:04:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC) 1640:04:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC) 1631:04:05, 20 February 2007 (UTC) 1618:12:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 1607:07:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 1554:04:41, 20 February 2007 (UTC) 1533:00:33, 20 February 2007 (UTC) 1514:14:18, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 1502:13:42, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 1489:13:05, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 1477:12:06, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 1467:11:45, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 1389:02:31, 27 February 2007 (UTC) 1381:14:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC) 1370:18:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 1351:06:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 1187:00:48, 25 February 2007 (UTC) 1176:14:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC) 1138:08:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 1105:08:08, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 1044:08:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 1015:08:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 975:08:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 943:07:59, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 926:07:58, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 902:07:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 887:07:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 876:07:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 864:04:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 825:04:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 803:03:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC) 790:11:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 778:17:46, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 753:11:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 737:17:26, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 715:11:20, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 699:11:01, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 620:09:15, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 581:09:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 551:09:01, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 533:08:55, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 501:06:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 407:11:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 369:11:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 317:04:34, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 252:04:01, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 223:03:46, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 185:03:14, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 145:02:43, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 132:19:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC) 111:19:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC) 83:17:16, 17 February 2007 (UTC) 3382:Ministry of Public Security 3232:Template:Airports in Taiwan 3040:Foreign relations of Taiwan 2927:I wouldn't mind calling it 2816:choice of name, except for 2788:Foreign relations of Taiwan 2242:NPOV is about reference to 2150:the Chinese view on Taiwan 2116:. The scenario is not like 1493:LordAmeth, you should read 136:As background, please read 95:, note the in/of. We also 3603: 3372:Ministry of Health (China) 3239:20:53, 25 March 2007 (UTC) 3214:21:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC) 3193:19:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC) 3179:09:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC) 3168:11:03, 20 March 2007 (UTC) 3148:22:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC) 3135:22:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC) 3125:22:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC) 3095:17:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC) 3085:11:27, 20 March 2007 (UTC) 3071:11:03, 20 March 2007 (UTC) 3002:10:23, 20 March 2007 (UTC) 2976:20:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC) 2959:14:48, 19 March 2007 (UTC) 2941:11:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC) 2923:11:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC) 2884:11:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC) 2858:11:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC) 2810:10:56, 19 March 2007 (UTC) 2634:Ministry of Health (China) 2538:10:09, 19 March 2007 (UTC) 2496:03:41, 19 March 2007 (UTC) 2483:12:04, 18 March 2007 (UTC) 2466:04:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC) 2450:00:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC) 2442:03:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC) 2422:03:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC) 2401:03:18, 17 March 2007 (UTC) 2393:19:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC) 2384:19:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC) 2375:02:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC) 2361:22:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC) 2273:01:25, 18 March 2007 (UTC) 2251:00:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC) 2237:23:17, 17 March 2007 (UTC) 2219:People's Republic of China 2206:People's Republic of China 2178:People's Republic of China 2171:03:18, 17 March 2007 (UTC) 2160:23:17, 17 March 2007 (UTC) 2143:19:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC) 2132:23:17, 17 March 2007 (UTC) 2095:19:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC) 2076:18:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC) 2050:21:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC) 2029:15:53, 17 March 2007 (UTC) 2011:06:56, 17 March 2007 (UTC) 1998:04:39, 17 March 2007 (UTC) 1987:03:57, 17 March 2007 (UTC) 1966:19:19, 12 March 2007 (UTC) 1946:03:32, 15 March 2007 (UTC) 1410:08:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC) 1321:20:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC) 1311:08:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC) 1281:08:25, 19 March 2007 (UTC) 1242:08:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC) 1232:08:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC) 1217:12:27, 15 March 2007 (UTC) 1206:12:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC) 1161:20:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC) 435:Category:Republic of China 102:but that was really about 3587:20:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC) 3568:23:57, 1 April 2007 (UTC) 3117:Paracels and so on do). 2911:other flags were proposed 2334:09:43, 4 March 2007 (UTC) 1925:18:56, 3 March 2007 (UTC) 1397:07:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC) 475:and I will implement it. 466:Culture of mainland China 3322:(very tedious, but sure) 2513:Rail transport in Taiwan 125:Pharmaceuticals in India 121:Pharmaceuticals in China 73:Also, the old debate at 36:across Knowledge (XXG). 3497:List of banks in Taiwan 3048:List of banks in Taiwan 2832:looks silly to me. Now 2519:currently redirects to 1846:would automatically be 1588:Government of Hong Kong 203:if we can decide on one 3580:Demographics of Taiwan 3543:should redirect there) 3493:List of banks in China 3044:Human rights in Taiwan 657:won't be controversial 286:Republic of China Navy 75:Talk:Economy of Taiwan 42:Demographics of Taiwan 3280:(obviously necessary) 3230:And what about this: 2196:Not everybody agrees 2148:What do you mean by " 2112:, or the Netherlands 1001:comment was added by 3473:(fair and necessary) 3156:More opinions needed 2456:Furtherer discussion 2344:page which explains 1977:Economy of Hong Kong 1592:Economy of Hong Kong 1133:All right, fine. -- 454:Culture of Hong Kong 3340:(ran by gov., fair) 3036:Education in Taiwan 2521:Geography of Taiwan 1195:this thread on AN/I 396:Metropolitan France 3541:Politics of Taiwan 3525:Military of Taiwan 3364:(fair. where does 3188:is not neutral. - 3060:Politics of Taiwan 3056:Military of Taiwan 2969:Military of Taiwan 812:Please vote using 506:Further discussion 423:Category:Hong Kong 166:As a tangent, the 93:Media of Hong Kong 27:Naming conventions 3576:Economy of Taiwan 3551:Tourism in Taiwan 3064:Tourism in Taiwan 2182:Republic of China 1658: 1368: 1349: 1103: 1018: 973: 924: 862: 776: 618: 531: 458:Culture of Taiwan 344:Republic of China 304:Culture of Taiwan 300:Economy of Taiwan 278:Republic of China 250: 117:Medicine in China 46:Economy of Taiwan 3594: 3366:Chinese military 2474:has appeared on 2415:Economy of China 1973:Economy of China 1648: 1440:within a country 1358: 1357: 1339: 1318:Michael G. Davis 1158:Michael G. Davis 1093: 996: 963: 914: 852: 766: 721:Mainland China". 608: 521: 482:Example proposal 446:Culture of China 360: 240: 3602: 3601: 3597: 3596: 3595: 3593: 3592: 3591: 3495:as a whole and 3253: 2846:official policy 2480:Pavel Vozenilek 2458: 2434: 2429: 2411: 2285: 1852:based in Taiwan 1844:based in Taiwan 1801:Sunshine policy 1600: 1573: 1568: 1456: 1418: 1355: 1333: 997:—The preceding 844: 832: 814:approval voting 810: 508: 484: 473:make a decision 427:Category:Taiwan 347: 89:Media in Taiwan 29: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 3600: 3598: 3590: 3589: 3555: 3554: 3544: 3534: 3528: 3518: 3512: 3506: 3500: 3486: 3480: 3474: 3468: 3452: 3451: 3445: 3439: 3433: 3427: 3421: 3415: 3409: 3403: 3397: 3391: 3385: 3375: 3369: 3359: 3353: 3347: 3341: 3335: 3329: 3323: 3317: 3311: 3305: 3299: 3293: 3287: 3281: 3275: 3269: 3252: 3249: 3248: 3247: 3246: 3245: 3244: 3243: 3242: 3241: 3221: 3220: 3219: 3218: 3217: 3216: 3198: 3197: 3196: 3195: 3182: 3181: 3153: 3152: 3151: 3150: 3138: 3137: 3114: 3113: 3112: 3111: 3110: 3109: 3108: 3107: 3106: 3105: 3104: 3103: 3102: 3101: 3100: 3099: 3098: 3097: 3087: 3017: 3016: 3015: 3014: 3013: 3012: 3011: 3010: 3009: 3008: 3007: 3006: 3005: 3004: 2965:Miltary of ROC 2903:Flag of Taiwan 2876: 2873:Flag of Taiwan 2861: 2860: 2841: 2830:Flag of Taiwan 2776: 2775: 2769: 2768: 2764: 2763: 2758: 2753: 2748: 2743: 2738: 2733: 2728: 2723: 2718: 2713: 2708: 2702: 2701: 2697: 2696: 2691: 2686: 2681: 2676: 2671: 2666: 2661: 2656: 2651: 2646: 2641: 2636: 2631: 2626: 2621: 2616: 2611: 2606: 2601: 2596: 2591: 2586: 2581: 2576: 2571: 2566: 2561: 2556: 2551: 2545: 2544: 2501: 2500: 2499: 2498: 2486: 2485: 2457: 2454: 2453: 2452: 2447:SchmuckyTheCat 2444: 2433: 2430: 2428: 2425: 2410: 2407: 2406: 2405: 2395: 2386: 2377: 2372:SchmuckyTheCat 2368:SchmuckyTheCat 2365: 2354: 2349:the spirit of 2327: 2313: 2304: 2295: 2284: 2281: 2280: 2279: 2278: 2277: 2276: 2275: 2256: 2255: 2254: 2253: 2223:Mainland China 2184:, rather than 2163: 2162: 2135: 2134: 2087: 2086: 2085: 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1147: 1146: 1145: 1144: 1143: 1142: 1141: 1140: 1118: 1117: 1116: 1115: 1114: 1113: 1112: 1111: 1110: 1109: 1108: 1107: 1087: 1086: 1085: 1080: 1075: 1055: 1054: 1053: 1052: 1051: 1050: 1049: 1048: 1047: 1046: 1028: 1027: 1026: 1025: 1024: 1023: 1022: 1021: 1020: 1019: 984: 983: 982: 981: 980: 979: 978: 977: 950: 949: 948: 947: 946: 945: 931: 930: 929: 928: 905: 904: 890: 889: 879: 878: 867: 866: 843: 840: 831: 828: 809: 806: 795: 794: 793: 792: 758: 757: 756: 755: 743:Mainland China 729: 728: 723: 722: 708: 707: 706: 705: 704: 703: 702: 701: 685: 684: 683: 682: 681: 680: 679: 678: 667: 666: 665: 664: 663: 662: 661: 660: 645: 644: 643: 642: 641: 640: 639: 638: 627: 626: 625: 624: 623: 622: 588: 587: 586: 585: 584: 583: 570:Category:Tibet 556: 555: 554: 553: 536: 535: 507: 504: 483: 480: 419:Category:China 412: 411: 410: 409: 399:categories. — 391:mainland China 387:mainland China 380: 379: 378: 377: 376: 375: 374: 373: 372: 371: 326: 325: 324: 323: 322: 321: 320: 319: 309: 308: 307: 296: 289: 259: 258: 257: 256: 255: 254: 228: 227: 226: 225: 213: 212: 211: 210: 188: 187: 182:SchmuckyTheCat 178: 175: 171: 164: 152: 28: 25: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 3599: 3588: 3585: 3581: 3577: 3572: 3571: 3570: 3569: 3565: 3561: 3552: 3548: 3545: 3542: 3538: 3535: 3532: 3529: 3526: 3522: 3519: 3516: 3513: 3510: 3507: 3504: 3501: 3498: 3494: 3490: 3487: 3484: 3481: 3478: 3475: 3472: 3469: 3466: 3462: 3459: 3458: 3457: 3456: 3449: 3446: 3443: 3440: 3437: 3434: 3431: 3428: 3425: 3422: 3419: 3416: 3413: 3410: 3407: 3404: 3401: 3398: 3395: 3392: 3389: 3386: 3383: 3379: 3376: 3373: 3370: 3368:redirect to?) 3367: 3363: 3360: 3357: 3354: 3351: 3348: 3345: 3342: 3339: 3336: 3333: 3330: 3327: 3324: 3321: 3318: 3315: 3312: 3309: 3306: 3303: 3300: 3297: 3294: 3291: 3288: 3285: 3282: 3279: 3276: 3273: 3270: 3267: 3264: 3263: 3262: 3261: 3257: 3251:Proposed list 3250: 3240: 3237: 3236:Jerrypp772000 3233: 3229: 3228: 3227: 3226: 3225: 3224: 3223: 3222: 3215: 3212: 3211:Jerrypp772000 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1780: 1777: 1773: 1772: 1771: 1768: 1763: 1762: 1761: 1760: 1757: 1753: 1749: 1744: 1743: 1740: 1739:Jerrypp772000 1736: 1725: 1722: 1719: 1714: 1713: 1712: 1709: 1708:Jerrypp772000 1705: 1704: 1703: 1702: 1699: 1696: 1691: 1681: 1678: 1673: 1671: 1668: 1663: 1662: 1661: 1656: 1652: 1647: 1643: 1642: 1641: 1638: 1634: 1633: 1632: 1629: 1625: 1624: 1623: 1622: 1619: 1616: 1611: 1610: 1609: 1608: 1605: 1597: 1595: 1593: 1589: 1584: 1582: 1578: 1570: 1565: 1555: 1552: 1548: 1547: 1546: 1545: 1544: 1543: 1542: 1541: 1534: 1531: 1530:Jerrypp772000 1527: 1526: 1525: 1524: 1523: 1522: 1515: 1512: 1509: 1505: 1504: 1503: 1500: 1496: 1492: 1490: 1487: 1484: 1480: 1479: 1478: 1475: 1470: 1468: 1465: 1462: 1458: 1457: 1453: 1451: 1449: 1445: 1441: 1436: 1433: 1429: 1425: 1422: 1415: 1411: 1407: 1403: 1400: 1398: 1395: 1392: 1390: 1387: 1384: 1382: 1379: 1376: 1373: 1371: 1366: 1362: 1354: 1352: 1347: 1343: 1338: 1335: 1334: 1330: 1322: 1319: 1314: 1312: 1309: 1305: 1304: 1303: 1302: 1301: 1300: 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Knowledge (XXG)

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