1253:, citing the discussion above. I disagree with the substance of those edits, which removed Buddhist and folk myths and left only Shinto elements. I do not think that there was consensus for such changes in the September 2010 discussion. I have therefore rolled back the changes. I expect that Shinkansen Fan may want to return to his version of the template, so I am re-opening discussion here, so as to get the greatest possible participation among interested editors.
2027:. The hyphens separate distinct terms. To cram the seperate terms together would create some article titles of intimidating length, especially for readers not familiar with Japanese names. As for the kami and some of the older historical figures, I agree that some of the -no-kami/mikoto suffixes can be shed for the sake of similicity. If you look at European figures, the article title is focused on the name. Titles are only added to distinguish one (for example)
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direct readers to the central "Kiki" narratives, or point to the broad outlines of the multiple mythological and religious traditions that exist in Japan. I will again assert that if the goal is the former, calling this "Japanese mythology" is misleading. Also, labeling syncretism as "a product of... cultural transfer" seems to assert an ideology of historical purity that I think many (or most) scholars would find controversial.
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1532:'s genealogy) in detail and cite many sources. My edit is based on these books, specifically Tamio Tobe's "Truth in Fantasy" series which are cited by Japanese Knowledge. Buddha appears in Volume 19 (Emperor Kinmei) of the Nihon Shoki, which says that whether or not Japan should accept Buddhism was a major controversy in his time. Thus, there was a need to reconcile differences between Shinto and Buddhism.
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The lower template seems more balanced and better looking to me, but the pictures are very small. If you increase them to 100px, the whole template is still smaller than the upper template, so I would recommend that change. Also, the upper template feels somehow intimidating; the lower one feels more
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is a series of tales about the creation of the deities and the land in time immemorial, as told in Kojiki, Nihon Shoki, and Fudoki of some provinces such as Izumo. These texts chronicle the events that took place in
Takamagahara, Izumo, and Hyuga. The creation process began with the birth of the five
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Certainly the 七福神 (mostly) have origins outside of Japan, but their treatment as a group is a strictly
Japanese tradition, isn't it? (As I mentioned above, I'm not expert in this area.) Similarly, Buddhism has its origins in South Asia, but its practice in Japan is in some ways regionally specific. I
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Oh, you mean the pictures, not the internal links. I see where you're coming from in semiotic terms, but in visual terms either the pictures become too small or the white space overwhelms the links. If I recall correctly, originally the template had only one image of
Amaterasu, but someone (I forget
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Scholars seem to think that influences of
Buddhism and folk beliefs result from various medieval reinterpretations of Kiki mythology. I think this change in the narratives occurred because Buddhism widely spread among the bushi and commoners in medieval times, long after it was officially introduced
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Specifically regarding
Shinkasen Fan's template: I don't understand the organization. This is probably because I have limited knowledge of Shinto. Importantly, though, there is no explanation of this organization on any of the pages linked. This makes the template not very helpful to Knowledge users
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We'd like to collect information on how the current tool is used by....you! How do you yourself and the other maintainers of your project use the web tool? Which of its features do you need? How frequently do you use these features? And what features is the tool missing that would be useful to you?
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I modified both templates. The upper template now has the 100px images on the right. The images of the lower template are 80px, and I think it looks better. If the size is 100px, the white space in the Seven Lucky Gods group becomes too big. We can resize the images again once we have enough number
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I second
Shinkansen Fan's suggestion that the most common form of the name without no-mikoto/no-kami be used in page titles, with alternate versions (including honorifics where they are commonly used) included in the article's lead section. I have no strong preference for the use of hyphens versus
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I agree that all these non-Shinto creatures and other topics unrelated to the mythology seem out of place. The
Japanese template only includes Kojiki and Nihon Shoki and the tales on the creation myth and the birth of the deities who rule the natural world. I listed these topics in my translation
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in
Takamagahara followed by the twelve deities (seven generations), "Kami(no)yonanayo" (the seven generations of the divine age). Izanagi and Izanami are the seventh generation. Izanami gave birth to the land of Japan (Kuniumi) and the gods and goddesses of natural forces (Kamiumi). The Buddhist
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I think that it might be good to remove the whole "Mythical locations" heading from the current template. As
Shinkansen Fan says, Ryūgū-jō is mostly referred to in secular folklore (e.g. Urashima Tarō). Tamagahara and Yomi are important concepts in Shinto, but do they need a link outside that to
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says that an article title should be recognizable, natural, precise, concise, and consistent. I believe the shortest names without -no-kami/mikoto are the best. Many gods and goddesses have aliases and their kanji characters often vary from chronicle to chronicle. In order to avoid this hassle,
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Probably no one can deny that Kojiki and Nihon Shogi are central texts in
Japanese mythology, no matter how one defines that term. What I disagree with is the suggestion that their narratives constitute its entirety. I suppose it comes down to a question of what these templates are meant to do:
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I prefer to note this distinction between the Kiki original and the medieval version and limit the scope of this navbox to the Kiki. My navbox is just a translation of the Japanese one, which is a very simple navbox of the Kiki mythology. Many notable deities and people are lacking, so there is
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There is a common joke in Japan that says we are born Buddhists, we live as Shintoists, and we die Buddhists. Shinto is the major indigenous religion here and its mythology has effects on our lives, but so does Buddhism as well as some foreign myths. To say that Shinto belief is the totality of
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deities and the Seven Lucky Gods don't appear in the mythology because they are not ancestors or descendants of Izanagi and Izanami. Perhaps we can move the Buddhist deities to a Buddhism template. I think Shichifukujin falls into the category of folk beliefs rather than the mythology.
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I think this hyphenation necessitates redirects and makes it harder to read and write articles. I personally like "Kuninotokotachi" as one word, rather than "Kuni-no-tokotachi", and "Kuninotokotachi no kami/mikoto" with no hyphenation rather than "Kuni-no-tokotachi-no-kami/mikoto" or
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We have greatly streamlined the process since the Version 0.7 release, so we aim to have the collection ready for distribution by the end of October, 2010. As a result, we are planning to distribute the collection much more widely, while continuing to work with groups such as
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Are members of this task force interested to create separate templates for religious and folkloric topics, ideally linked back to one another with a cross-reference? I'm not particularly expert in this area, but know just enough to take mild offense at the current templates.
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descended to Hyuga. Emperor Jimmu started his expedition to the east (Yamato) from Hyuga. There are a few other tales related to these places. The ancient provincial powers like Izumo, Hayato, and Kumaso may have their own tales, but I don't know much about
1175:. Selected articles are marked with a diamond symbol (♦) to the right of each article, and this symbol links to the selected version of each article. If you believe we have included or excluded articles inappropriately, please contact us at
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article mentions three parts: "... Shinto and Buddhist traditions as well as agriculture-based folk religion." (in detail the article seems to discuss only Shinto though as far as I can see). Sources also seem to include Buddhist myths:
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One last point: Shinkansen Fan do you mean to move Amaterasu to the right of Susanoo? That's fine. I'm not sure what you mean by "on top of", though. On my browser, with its current width, all of those links are on the same line.
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Yes, fully agree, as I wrote above all three should be mentioned under a heading "Japanese mythology". My association with Shinto only was more a spontaneous first reaction (probably influenced by what I've been reading lately).
2073:, etc. No standard naming convention exists now. Long compound names tend to be unpopular. I looked up long names in my books on the mythology and got the impression that we could cover main tales without facing that problem. --
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I would not have any strong objection to creating separate Shinto and Buddhist templates (aside from a general preference for elegance and efficiency), but I don't think that either alone can be called "Japanese mythology".
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I think compound words like Kamiumi, Kuniumi, and Kamiyonanayo should be treated as single words. (Kami and umi, kuni and umi, and kamiyo and nanayo all rhyme.) Words like Ame-no-ukihashi (天浮橋) may not need hyphens either.
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I don't think Buddhism and the Seven Lucky Gods belong here because their origin is not related to the mythology. Ryugu-jo most often appears in the folklore, so it should be moved to the folklore template. Also,
1510:(And by the way, suggesting that Nihon Shinwa usually refers to Shinto myths is really begging the question. Although that word can be translated as "Japanese myths", it is literally "Japanese god stories".)
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I support a naming convention (in whatever way). However I am not familiar enough with the topic to say which convention would be preferable. All I can say so far is that Chamberlain's Kojiki
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1331:(isbn:1576074676), or 神仏習合 (isbn:4004304539), all of which describe the place of Shinto and Buddhism in Japanese life and tradition, as well as the relationships between the traditions.
2176:! As you may or may not know, we are currently involved in an overhaul of the bot, in order to make it more modern and maintainable. As part of this process, we will be rewriting the
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Can we find another image with a similar aspect ration for the right side fo the box to balance it? Right now, it looks very strange due to the offset created by the left image. ···
1920:). Hyphenation is necessary for compound kango made in Japan (和製漢語) with the suffixes-性, 制, 型, 的, 法, 力, etc. Other than that, usage of hypthens should be minimal, in my opinion.--
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Having said that, I don't have a strong opinion on the definition of Japanese mythology, but I think the Kiki alone can make a pretty big template even if we leave out the
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in use: compound names, spacing, and hyphenation. As for names including "no" like Saigō-no-Tsubone, I prefer spaces, and there are some articles following this pattern:
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I'm not sure what you mean by "related to the mythology." Are you suggesting that there is a single mythic tradition in Japan? You may also want check out the template
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Yes, it may well be worthwhile to have a template specifically dedicated to these narratives and the gods, locations, history etc. described within them.
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uses the hyphenation convention for both Romaji and translated names. However the book is from 1919, so we might well use a more modern convention.
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I wanted to align these two vertically to show that she has kicked him out, looks down on earth and their relationship is unequal. However,
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I would not be able to tell you about it. The first two are actual places visited by Buddhist pilgrims (among others); the latter is the
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As far as I understand the three mythologies (Shinto, Buddhist, folk) are sufficiently distinct to have three templates (my preference).
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will change. The upgrade will make many new, optional features available to all WikiProjects. Additional information is available at the
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that is part of the project. You might have noticed this tool if you click through the links on the project assessment summary tables.
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In addition to hyphens, the discussion might address which portion of the gods' names should be used as page titles. Currently we have
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I have proposed possibly expanding the scope of this project, and a few others. For the purposes of centralized discussion, please see
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looks worse than I thought because there are too few items now and needless spaces are created in the Mythical locations group. --
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Both Takamagahara and Yomi are important in the mythlogy, so they should stay. I included Izumo and Hyuga as mythical locations.
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to merge my edit with the Mythical locations. Major Buddhist figures and Seven Lucky Gods from yours. Which one do you like?
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was one such attempt, I guess. Perhaps we need a section of medieval reinterpretations and regional variations somewhere.
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I made some changes to my template. As for red links, I will try translating equivalent articles and related pictures.
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and the Buddhas. I don't associate Zen with any mythological tale though. I believe It's a very different subject. --
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spaces in names containing other nouns (no hime; no tsubone etc.), but agree that long compounds with neither (e.g.
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For a deity name, the most common one established in mythological studies without no-kami/mikoto should be used.
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are not supposed to contain red links, and both Izumo and Hyūga link to DAB pages and so need to be changed.
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According to the following books, 日本神話 generally refers to the Kiki (記紀) mythology that is told in the Koji
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2118:). These should be merged and I think we can drop Empress from the title. She was never a monarch, unlike
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Japanese Knowledge often uses katakana for page titles. We can write longer names within each article. --
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as "His-Swift-Impetuous-Male-Augustness," but this hyphenation may be excessive. W. G. Aston's Nihongi
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will be upgraded. Your project does not need to take any action, but the appearance of your project's
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1483:. I think someone from the Kiki is better. Also, I'd like to move all the groupings to the left and
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Looks good. I added alt text to each so people can hover over the image and see what it is. ···
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to include the creation myth, mythology from Izumo and Hyuga, and the earliest emperors.
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and try to improve any that need work; if you do, please give us the new revisionID at
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I've mocked up a version of the 'long' box with only Shinto, Buddhism, and the 七福神 at
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have Spanish translations. If someone understands Spanish, please help. Thank you. --
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1407:日本の神々の事典―神道祭祀と八百万の神々 (New sight mook―Books esoterica) Gakken ISBN-13: 978-4056016291
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Knowledge talk:WikiProject Religion#Possible reorganization of some related projects
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but includes a number of historical figures as well. I refer you to the articles
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I'm fine with the hyphenation of Toku-hime, but there are three ways of naming
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Fujin may not be the best representative of this task force. It's a product of
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1404:八百万の神々―日本の神霊たちのプロフィール (Truth In Fantasy) Shinkigensha ISBN-13: 978-4883172993
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Japanese mythology articles have been selected for the Knowledge 0.8 release
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for introduction to the mythology told in medieval literature, such as the
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Japanese mythology is to misstate something fundamental. See, for example,
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This message is being sent to each WikiProject that participates in the
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1401:日本神話―神々の壮麗なるドラマ (Truth In Fantasy) Shinkigensha ISBN-13: 978-4775302033
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The category "sacred and mythical locations" is also odd. I've visited
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I'd like to reopen the discussion on a standard naming convention of
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for offline release on USB key, DVD and mobile phone. Articles were
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Susanoo), but in others shorter names redirect to longer ones (e.g.
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Common alternatives and honorifics should be mentioned in the lead.
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It seems inappropriate to me to mix gods from the Shinto pantheon (
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I have just noticed that during January and February of this year
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to extend the reach of Knowledge worldwide. Please help us, with
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Version 0.8 is a collection of Knowledge articles selected by the
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who) suggested that two pictures would lend aesthetic balance.
1410:史上最強カラー図解 古事記・日本書紀のすべてがわかる本 Natsumesha ISBN-13: 978-4816350115
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with the details. You may wish to look at your WikiProject's
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Could someone help translating these articles? In particular,
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I've noticed that there are many hyphenated names of kami in
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Let me fix the broken internal links within this template. --
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I agree that the current one is aesthetically better. I made
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guess it depends on what one means by "Japanese mythology".
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I added one; changes are welcome, or we could remove both.
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Perhaps we need a standard naming convention. Thoughts? --
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Japanese mythology articles and revisionIDs we have chosen
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1395:日本書紀 下 風土記 (日本の古典をよむ) Shogakukan ISBN-13: 978-4093621731
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selected based on their assessed importance and quality
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Would anyone be interested in joining a sub project of
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All of the books above discuss the mythology in the
1392:日本書紀 上 (日本の古典をよむ) Shogakukan ISBN-13: 978-4093621724
331:: Participate in Japan-related deletion discussions.
137:. Current time in Japan: 09:58, September 29, 2024 (
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2151:Knowledge:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)
2015:in compound names. This subject is not limited to
1528:and legendary history of the Human Age (hitoyo) (
1398:もう一度学びたい古事記と日本書紀 Seitosha ISBN-13: 978-4791613878
1057:who are not already expert in the subject. Also,
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2172:Hello and greetings from the maintainers of the
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2228:Talk:The_Buddha#Requested_move_25_November_2022
985:. I added the content of the Japanese template
2259:? WP's coverage of this is quite poor atm imo
1438:substantial growth potential. We could expand
999:is not specific enough and may be omitted. --
896:Looks good, too. I add alt text here, too. ···
1730:approachable even with the same information.
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1945:Does anyone else have an opinion on this? --
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2168:Request for information on WP1.0 web tool
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1843:"Kuninotokotachi-no-kami/mikoto".
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1325:On Understanding Japanese Religion
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1835:"Ameno-uzume-no-Mikoto" for
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927:I have merged my content to
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1680:moved Shinto to the bottom
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1993:Knowledge:Article titles
1943:Second opinion requested
1829:"Izanami-no-Mikoto" for
1487:to the right, on top of
1270:Shinkansen Fan's version
666:. They apply equally to
658:Jmyth navbox and infobox
460:WP 1.0 assessment system
299:Good article nominations
1899:Chamberlain translated
1671:Ashihara no Nakatsukuni
1630:Other changes include:
1268:To me as a non-expert,
1110:descended to Izumo and
731:, but if I had visited
476:WP 1.0 project homepage
454:WP 1.0 bot announcement
2067:Kakinomoto no Hitomaro
1977:Tsukiyomi-no-Mikoto).
1884:Encyclopedia of Shinto
1453:Japanese folklore long
1369:(based on the earlier
952:Japanese folklore long
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862:Join WikiProject Japan
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672:Template:Jmyth infobox
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170:Japan-related articles
1888:Kokugakuin University
1199:Knowledge for Schools
500:The Japanese article
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2071:Minamoto no Yoritomo
1765:of internal links.--
1195:One Laptop per Child
357:an article from the
339:Japan-related stubs.
190:Mythology task force
131:relevant discussions
2063:Soga no Kitashihime
2013:Support hyphenation
1689:Konohanasakuya-hime
1327:(isbn:0691102295),
1247:User:Shinkansen Fan
496:Translation request
369:unassessed articles
135:lists of open tasks
125:, please visit the
2216:Siddhartha Gautama
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1278:Japanese mythology
1241:Jmyth navbox again
1154:Knowledge 1.0 team
1085:Japanese mythology
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1969:Susanoo-no-Mikoto
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1837:Ame no Uzume
1814:
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1426:'s era. See
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50:WikiProjects
40:project page
39:
2247:Wikiproject
2029:Richard III
1659:Amano-Iwato
1633:omitted Zen
1228:John Carter
1168:algorithm.
712:Santa Claus
612:ja:タギシミミの反逆
597:ja:ウガヤフキアエズ
567:ja:大国主の国づくり
307:(TV series)
241:Peer review
123:participate
2277:Categories
2220:The Buddha
2174:WP 1.0 Bot
2133:Discussion
2033:Boneyard90
1819:articles.
1477:syncretism
739:in Shinto.
729:Mount Fuji
725:Mount Hiei
714:, and the
593:ja:山幸彦と海幸彦
578:ja:葦原中津国平定
555:ja:ヤマタノオロチ
534:アマテラスとスサノオ
468:WP 1.0 bot
133:, and see
2261:Kowal2701
2025:Toku-hime
1974:Tsukiyomi
1685:Watatsumi
1485:Amaterasu
1481:Silk Road
1166:WikiTrust
680:Amaterasu
563:ja:大国主の神話
519:イザナギとイザナミ
478:. — Carl
354:translate
74:Mythology
2190:Walkerma
2178:web tool
1801:Reopened
1636:omitted
1432:Taiheiki
1428:ja:中世日本紀
1162:versions
1059:navboxes
688:Momotarō
559:ja:因幡の白兎
400:Archives
279:Pictures
272:Articles
2135:ongoing
2116:ja:磐之媛命
1965:Izanagi
1901:Susanoo
1831:Izanami
1489:Susanoo
1108:Susanoo
1047:Shinto?
684:Susanoo
641:ja:神代七世
623:ja:欠史八代
608:ja:神武東征
587:山幸彦と海幸彦
582:ja:天孫降臨
572:葦原中津国平定
502:ja:日本神話
289:: None
282:: None
275:: None
215:history
152:Refresh
2238:«Talk»
2230:Best,
2224:Buddha
2097:Cnilep
1979:Cnilep
1732:Cnilep
1691:, and
1683:added
1673:, and
1657:moved
1649:Shinto
1611:Cnilep
1578:Cnilep
1559:Cnilep
1512:Cnilep
1458:too.--
1337:Cnilep
1255:Cnilep
1112:Ninigi
1063:Cnilep
1022:Shinto
959:Cnilep
883:Cnilep
830:Cnilep
785:Cnilep
746:Cnilep
637:ja:神産み
633:ja:国産み
565:, and
544:ja:天岩戸
529:ja:神産み
525:ja:国産み
508:世界の始まり
466:, the
366:Assess
252:: None
244:: None
46:scale.
1976:: -->
1971:: -->
1866:bamse
1675:Hyūga
1667:Izumo
1638:Inari
1375:Teiki
1371:Kyūji
1353:bamse
1309:bamse
1295:bamse
1115:them.
708:Moses
704:Jesus
700:Kappa
696:Tengu
462:. On
351:Help
286:Lists
225:purge
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