1031:' which refers to the varieties of English spoken in Wales and not to the Welsh language. However, I would like to point out that Welsh English does contain loanwords from the Welsh language and some speakers code switch by using both English and Welsh words in the same sentence although this is colloquial rather than formal. Although more than 50% of respondents in Gwynedd and Ceridigion claimed to be able to speak Welsh in the last census both counties have their share of native English-speakers especially in the coastal resorts where some of the rivers in question meet the sea. Below I have provided the video by Natural Resources Wales with the use of the word 'Afon' about three minutes in.
983:, for example, on Wicipedia Cymraeg). Certainly for the more widely known rivers in Wales I would think it's more appropriate on the English language Knowledge (XXG) to call them rivers. As for the smaller tributaries, it's probably not worth working up a sweat changing them, but I don't know at the moment at what point a Welsh river becomes "widely known". The situation is complicated by the fact Welsh is an official language in the UK, so Ordnance Survey will not surprisingly also give the Welsh translation of rivers in Wales. Citing Ordnance Survey as proof that Welsh name/translation is commonly known by monoglot English speakers, is a weak argument in my opinion.
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been almost no such weighing in by others. With two minor exceptions, what has taken place is actually a dialogue between two editors. Such discussions are not likely to establish any definitive clarity and unfortunately, this one has now lingered for nearly 3 months with little prospect of producing any further input. Nevertheless, a formal close has been requested and therefore the only way to summarize this is that
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1288:– The Rfc header above should be removed. This Rfc is not an Rfc; rather, it is a free-ranging discussion about how to improve a proposed new project subpage recommendation. As such, a discussion about that is just fine, and appropriate. But, that does not make it an Rfc. A "Request for comments" is not an invitation for a free-wheeling discussion about anything, but a specific part of the
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though some sources might use both prefixes interchangeably. I am however unable to provide much more sources than OS maps or mainstream media so it might be useful if anyone can provide university-level textbooks, books published by respected publishing houses, magazines and journals which are reliable sources according to
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and I have seen the 'River' prefix used by the BBC and some local and national newspapers which use
Standard English which I am sure is more or less nationwide in England and Wales. However, I have seen the use of 'Afon' by The Guardian, the Cambrian News, North Wales live and Natural Resources Wales
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in
Shropshire. As for 'Afon' and 'Nant' they are the Welsh words for 'river' and 'stream' respectively and are also used in OS maps of Wales often without an English equivalent. I decided to start this discussion after noticing some articles about rivers in Wales use the Welsh prefix 'Afon' in their
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I would also like to raise the issue on whether to include the
English translation in articles with the 'Afon' prefix in the title. To include such a bracket seems unnecessary in an English-language article if the introduction says it is a river e.g. the first six words (without the bracket) in the
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move discussions giving their reason, after I asked them, for keeping and moving the articles as 'There is clear consensus that this is the most common form'. By the sound of it even admins get confused by the inconsistency over the use of 'River' and 'Afon' in sources referring to rivers in Wales.
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I started this Rfc in response to confusion over whether to use 'River' or 'Afon' in an article about a river in Wales, in recent move discussions I was involved in, in the absence of a guideline I know of. This page seemed the best place to suggest such a guideline. I stand by my decision to start
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We recommend choosing a single name, by some objective criterion, even a somewhat arbitrary one. Simple Google tests are acceptable to settle the matter, despite their problems; one solution is to follow
English usage where it can be determined, and to adopt the name used by the linguistic majority
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in case it is useful here in deciding whether to use 'River' or 'Afon' in an article title. The guideline includes the preference for just one name in the title of an article but also states 'There are cases in which the local authority recognizes equally two or more names from different languages,
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is a fast flowing stream of the Lake
District in North West England' without a translation of the local language or dialect. I am however unsure if the use of a prefix should be avoided if it might be controversial. e.g. the introduction could just call the above example 'the Mawddach' or just use
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It has been suggested that this discussion does not meet the expected format of a
Request for Comment but there is a definite request by the originator for other editors to weigh in on the issue. Whatever the formalities, this is a RfC at least in spirit. The more salient issue is that there has
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Yes, I see what you mean. The order is confusing. It could be taken to mean that the list should appear before the body of the text. I'll move it down to be after the text. It was really just a check list item, no particular order. I tried to make this guide as close as possible to the WP:RIVERS
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to ask if they can offer any assistance and received the reply 'Honestly I don't see this getting resolved anytime soon as long as there's no consistency in the sources, where some rivers are more commonly called "River X" and others are "Afon X". I don't have much to add, I'm afraid'. I chose
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has also been discussing this on my Talk page. Bear in mind Welsh is a language, as is
English, not a dialect. There are differing dialects within Welsh, as there are within British English too (I'm unaware of there being multiple words for 'river', other than 'afon', in any Welsh dialect). It
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Thanks for making a start on this page & I agree with your comments in the lead that this will be complex. I have already been involved in discussion relating to River X or X river where X river is the name used locally (& on OS maps) - perhaps UK examples could be used eg
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stating their reason as 'There is clear consensus that this is the most common form'. In light of this I would suggest using, in an article title, whichever prefix out of 'River' or 'Afon' is more commonly used by reliable
English-language sources for that particular watercourse.
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reliable
English language source calls it a River I would argue that it should be called a River on the English language Knowledge (XXG). If there are no English lanuage sources that call it a river, I suspect the water course is too obscure to expend energy on a page move.
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although this is the
English-language Knowledge (XXG). I am however unsure of the formality, as opposed to colloquialism, of the use of 'afon' in English. The most formal example of the 'Afon' prefix in English I have found is in a video from Natural Resources Wales in the
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article the preference for Welsh place names over similar-sounding anglicisations is more common in the west of Wales so the same might be true for the 'Afon' prefix. As for 'Nant X' I have seen it used in OS maps and on local signs for streams in Wales e.g. Nant Gwernol,
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and the UK Environment Agency CAMS outline for writing about rivers. There is much still to be done on, and to, the page. The formatting needs the "magic touch" of the other guidelines and there is much discussion to be had. My intention is to offer a humble
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doesn't alter the fact that Welsh is not English, and this is the English language Knowledge (XXG). The name of the Rheidol is 'Rheidol' and the Dulas is 'Dulas', much as the Thames is the Thames, the Medway is the Medway and the Trent is the Trent (see
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Experience shows that the straightforward solution of a double or triple name is often unsatisfactory; there are all too many complaints that one or the other name should be first. We also deprecate any discussion of which name the place ought to have.
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the use of words common to all varieties of English is preferred although there are allowances for local dialects (formal not colloquial) if there are strong national ties to a topic. The word 'river' appears to be common to all varieties of
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I would like to suggest including three more examples of local names for watercourses (X Brook, Afon X and Nant X). 'Brook' is a common name for a stream in the West Midlands which does appear in Ordnance Survey maps of the area e.g.
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To add a suggestion: if a watercourse is known by multiple names among English-speakers the most common name could be used in the article title with other names marked as 'Also known as', following the example in the
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Yes,and I've just thought of the Scottish "Water of" and "Water" as in Jed Water and Annandale Water. I think the canal and waterways poeple already have a project. I remember seeing somthing recently. I agree about
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1117:, at the Dyfi estuary, to 'Aberdovey' as 'Both names appear to be in use, but the consensus here is that the sources suggest "Aberdyfi" is the common name in English-language sources' after I asked them.
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but English discussion of the place is so limited that none of the above tests indicate which of them is widely used in English; so there is no single local name, and English usage is hard to determine.
260:. For example, the list of elements to be included in the article is in a different order (WP:UKGEO puts the list of tributaries quite high up, whereas WP:RIVERS has them later). I wrote most of the
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As for brooks, there are 'brooks' all over England and South Wales, it's definitely not exclusive to the West Midlands. Exactly why some watercourses are brooks and others are streams I've no idea :)
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to provide their reason for their decision to move to 'River' as opposed to 'Afon', in case it helps in this discussion, besides 'River' having more comments in favour considering
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in August 2019) proposed moving the article to 'Afon Dyfi' although they were open to 'River Dyfi'. Although I did argue in favour of the move to 'River Dyfi' I did ask the admin
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articles but both times it was decided not to move those articles and the opponents of the proposals argue that the use of 'Afon X' is normal locally. The article
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including some which keep their original spelling. However, it does not have 'afon' unchanged so I am unsure of its frequency or formality in English.
1229:, in which the anglicised 'River Dovey' does not appear to be used as often as the one for the village and community of 'Aberdovey', some users on
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I thought I'd try to test this by doing a map for a local river but it flows both into & out of a reservori - how would this be represented?—
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describes at least four dialects of English within Wales (North Wales, Cardiff, South Wales Valleys and West Wales). According to the
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started the sub page article to form a base line for improvement. As a basis I used the other guidelines on WikiProject:UK geography,
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article following the WP:RIVERS guidelines, and it might have turned out quite differently if I had used these WP:UKGEO guidelines.
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had been the default position for naming streamcourses (including descriptive titles such as brook, afon, etc.) prior to this RfC.
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discussion although I was satisfied with the move to 'River Dyfi' and was merely asking them to provide a reason for the move.
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thought 'River Dyfi' was a 'horrible' mixture of the English and Welsh languages although it is used by reliable sources and
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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1304:. To the closer: I don't see how this can even be declared "no consensus", because you'd have to say, "No consensus
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Thanks for making the contact. I can see there will be a lot of talk about definitions, but this is no bad thing.--
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of course! I havn't seen any other that does so, on my travels round Knowledge (XXG), so I think it should.--
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has ended after over a month of debate over whether to move the article to 'River Mawddach' with the closer
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but DrKay stands by their comment that all the commentators were in favour. This contrasts with
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has been generated on naming the articles on streams which have both English and Welsh names.
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RfC is one of several processes available within Knowledge (XXG)'s dispute resolution system.
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as this copes with tributaries etc better (IMHO). Are we including man made watercourses eg
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Whether to include an English translation bracket in articles with non-English titles
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guide, in fact I cut and pasted a lot of it from there. Thanks for your comments. --
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Oops! Sorry, I reverted an edit. There was an edit conflict and as I had the info
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Regardless of whether some sources use the Welsh, it's still Welsh, not English.
1027:. I would also like to apologise for any confusion caused by my use of the term '
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suggests using the former, whilst the UK geography project suggests the latter.
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discussion which succeeded in getting it moved from River Dovey. The nominator
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on environmental, social and economic considerations of the Dyfi catchment area
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According to the OED, this is a mis-spelling, and the correct word should be
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Should there be a "Scope" section to define the coverage of the guidelines?--
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Can we have a symbol to indicate limit of tidal zone (where there is one)?—
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Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Rivers#Correct ambiguity in naming section
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At present two different disambiguation styles are used for UK rivers (eg.
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Knowledge (XXG):Naming conventions (geographic names)#Multiple local names
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this discussion until it is legitimately closed (preferably by an admin).
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Knowledge (XXG):Naming conventions (geographic names)#Multiple local names
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How far is this guideline intended to cover estuaries etc - see
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I think this is the guideline used in the decision to not move
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Knowledge (XXG):Manual of Style#National varieties of English
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titles particularly for the smaller lesser-known rivers e.g.
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where I have started experimentally to use the route maps--
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There doesn't seem to be much correlation between this and
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Since then the River Dovey article has been moved back to
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is a river'. I would also like to point out that the
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The following discussion is an archived record of a
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Would somthing like this be OK for a route diagram?
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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject_Rivers#Article_Structure
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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject_Rivers#Article_Structure
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No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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889:most common name supported by reliable sources
787:There is currently a discussion about this at
865:A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
18:Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject UK geography
8:
1142:Talk:River Dovey#Requested move 28 July 2019
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1263:No prejudice against speedy renomination.'
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1205:I would like to raise the point of
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753:Will this do? Maybe one for each?--
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9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
1483:
1471:
1466:
1465:
1461:
1457:
1453:
1449:
1441:
1437:
1433:
1429:
1425:
1421:
1420:
1419:
1418:
1414:
1410:
1406:
1401:
1397:
1393:
1392:Afon Mawddach
1389:
1388:Afon Mawddach
1380:
1378:
1377:
1373:
1369:
1364:
1360:
1355:
1346:
1342:
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1333:
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1303:
1295:
1291:
1285:
1280:
1277:
1276:
1275:
1274:
1270:
1266:
1262:
1261:No consensus.
1258:
1254:
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1244:
1240:
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1232:
1228:
1224:
1219:
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1073:
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1059:
1055:
1051:
1050:
1046:
1030:
1029:Welsh English
1026:
1021:
1016:
1013:According to
1012:
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1008:
1004:
1000:
996:
994:
990:
986:
982:
978:
973:
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968:
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946:Anglicisation
943:
942:Welsh English
939:
935:
931:
926:
922:
917:
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904:
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798:
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790:
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783:
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764:
760:
756:
755:Harkey Lodger
742:
740:
738:
736:
734:
732:
730:
729:
723:
714:
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706:
701:
699:
697:
694:
688:
679:
677:
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671:
670:
667:
666:
658:
657:
651:
648:
644:
643:
642:
641:
637:
633:
632:Harkey Lodger
629:
625:
622:I have added
620:
619:
615:
611:
610:Harkey Lodger
597:
595:
593:
591:
589:
587:
585:
584:
578:
569:
567:
564:
561:
556:
554:
552:
549:
543:
534:
532:
529:
526:
525:
522:
521:
513:
512:
508:
507:
496:
492:
491:
490:
487:
483:
482:
481:
477:
473:
472:Harkey Lodger
469:
465:
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463:
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458:
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453:Harkey Lodger
440:
438:
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434:
432:
430:
428:
427:
421:
412:
410:
407:
401:
378:
376:
373:
370:Plain course
367:
358:
356:
353:
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331:
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319:
318:
310:
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305:
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284:Harkey Lodger
280:
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263:
259:
252:
249:
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246:
242:
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237:Harkey Lodger
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215:Harkey Lodger
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198:
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193:Harkey Lodger
190:
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168:
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148:
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143:Harkey Lodger
140:
139:
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137:
136:
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127:
123:
119:
115:
114:
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112:
109:
105:
101:
100:Harkey Lodger
97:
92:
91:
90:
89:
86:
82:
78:
74:
70:
66:
65:River Parrett
62:
58:
49:
47:
46:
42:
38:
37:Harkey Lodger
33:
29:
19:
1469:
1444:
1407:'s leaflet.
1399:
1391:
1384:
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1310:
1309:
1305:
1278:
1260:
1250:
1220:
1216:
1212:
1204:
1182:
1088:
955:Nant Ceiswyn
938:Afon Rheidol
921:Afon Rheidol
880:
873:no consensus
872:
864:
858:
851:
816:
809:
793:chris_j_wood
786:
771:
752:
704:
621:
607:
559:
505:
504:
450:
303:
255:
234:
210:
206:
167:River Severn
164:
53:
27:
25:
1302:WP:RFCBRIEF
1138:River Dovey
977:Afon Medway
934:Afon Twymyn
506:How about ?
262:Monks Brook
1424:Rio Grande
1400:Trout Beck
1396:Trout Beck
1363:River Dyfi
1227:River Dyfi
1160:River Dyfi
1134:User:DrKay
1103:User:DrKay
981:Afon Trent
930:River Dyfi
925:Afon Dulas
57:River Avon
1426:but also
1259:stating '
1097:(renamed
951:Nant Brân
916:Rea Brook
906:(contrib)
900:Eggishorn
161:Estuaries
32:WP:RIVERS
1448:Aberdyfi
1359:Aberdyfi
1318:Mathglot
1306:for what
1223:Aberdyfi
1115:Aberdyfi
812:Toponymy
806:Toponomy
782:WP:RIVER
35:start.--
493:Loads
424:Source
266:Waggers
1294:WP:RFC
903:(talk)
879:, the
546:Tidal
207:pasted
189:Humber
173:&
28:boldly
1456:Tk420
1409:Tk420
1368:Tk420
1337:Tk420
1265:Tk420
1239:Tk420
1188:Sionk
1169:Tk420
1146:Tk420
1119:Tk420
1072:Tk420
1054:Sionk
999:Sionk
985:Sionk
972:Tk420
959:Tk420
231:Scope
120:from
16:<
1460:talk
1436:talk
1413:talk
1372:talk
1361:and
1341:talk
1322:talk
1269:talk
1243:talk
1192:talk
1173:talk
1150:talk
1123:talk
1076:talk
1058:talk
1003:talk
989:talk
979:and
963:talk
953:and
936:and
923:and
797:talk
776:and
759:talk
636:talk
614:talk
495:here
476:talk
468:here
457:talk
288:talk
270:talk
241:talk
219:talk
211:copy
197:talk
147:talk
104:talk
63:see
41:talk
1296:: "
1183:any
1162:by
647:Rod
486:Rod
470:.--
213:.--
179:Rod
177:.—
126:Rod
85:Rod
83:?—
75:or
1462:)
1454:.
1438:)
1415:)
1374:)
1343:)
1324:)
1271:)
1245:)
1237:.
1194:)
1175:)
1152:)
1125:)
1078:)
1060:)
1005:)
991:)
965:)
856:.
799:)
761:)
705:or
638:)
616:)
608:--
560:or
478:)
459:)
451:--
290:)
272:)
243:)
221:)
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169:,
149:)
106:)
43:)
26:I
1458:(
1434:(
1411:(
1370:(
1339:(
1320:(
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1282:(
1267:(
1241:(
1190:(
1171:(
1148:(
1121:(
1074:(
1056:(
1001:(
987:(
961:(
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893:(
834:s
831:r
828:i
825:f
822:b
819:D
795:(
757:(
634:(
612:(
474:(
455:(
286:(
268:(
239:(
217:(
195:(
145:(
102:(
39:(
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