1210:. I would not favour a reversal to the old transliteration system. The question, how has the new system come into being, is secondary. What matters is that there is a new practice of transliteration with a new system officially used by government and local authorities alike. Whether that is the result of one single decision or a series of particular decisions, and whether these are publicly available and quotable is quite irrelevant I reckon. The new practice is here, and we better accept that. As for the inconsistency in rendering Речица as Recica rather than Rechica on that road sign, the experience of other countries that have recently made similar changes in their Romanization systems (like Russia, Ukraine and Bulgaria) testify that errors inevitably occur in such large scale changes, which however is no reason to question the new systems.
976:). I understand that the Macedonian government haven't come up with official law for transliteration, but in case like this, it's better to respect the official documents issued by the government which use diagraphs for the Macedonian names both in passports, road signs and english version of the websites. In my ID card there is "Скопjе - Чаир" or "Skopje - Chair" (not Čair). For the lovers of the visual appearance of the diacritics - that's not a good excuse for leaving them in usage. Another thing that you should all consider is, currently the Macedonian cyrillic alphabet is the only non-English alphabet romanized with diacritics, every other cyrillic alphabet is romanized with diagraphs (Serbian is exception because Serbia is using two official scripts - Cyrillic and Latin which is not the case with Macedonia).
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controversy or debate within the country? Whatever the
Macedonian government and people decide, the world will surely eventually follow, although it may take a bit of wait-and-see (as was the case, for instance, with Indian city names like Kolkata), and it may be perfectly sensible to use a diacritic-less transliteration from Cyrillic to Latin alphabet (after all, we already do this for Russian). On the other hand, I would worry that perhaps this new transliteration scheme might not be a "done deal"; maybe it is just a proposal, and one faction pushing for this change is simply trying to use Knowledge (XXG) as a platform to promote this change? (I am thinking, for instance, of the periodic attempts to rename the
1050:
Knowledge (XXG) has huge influence over other site (even Google Maps used to copy information from here) and what government uses for ID cards and naming places is exactly what it counts. I'm 100% sure that if
Knowledge (XXG) had the names with diagraphs, the travel books would copy that information. Once again, that traditional system is not part of Macedonia anymore. That system was in force when Macedonia was part of Yugoslavia and preset at the old ID cards and passports. According to you, Knowledge (XXG) shouldn't listen to the government for transliteration? If that's the case, let's change the naming to the Bulgarian, Russian, Greek and other diagraph-transliteration countries to the scientific one.
972:: I would like to explain some things. The road signs that use Yugoslav transcription are the old road signs - the new ones use diagraphs. Second of all, those English travel websites are copying information from here and they see "Delčevo" so it's likely for them to write "Delčevo" instead of "Delchevo". People are using Knowledge (XXG) more than we all think so that is why we need to provide accurate information. Indeed, the English alphabet does not use diacritics and the transliteration issue is appearing at the English Knowledge (XXG) only. Look how the French transliterate the Macedonian names without asking for a law for transliteration (
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1306:, that (or those) may or may not have been publicised. That said, I suppose that there would be a relevant instruction at the offices (or police stations) issuing ID cards and passports, possibly part of the forms filed when applying for such documents. Perhaps Macedonicus could scan and upload here a copy, which would do I reckon. Best,
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data bases and web sites. And yes there are some old road signs yet to be replaced in
Bulgaria, and some old street name signs in downtown Sofia too, even though their replacement was approved and started back in 2006. So what? In no instance whatsever is an application of the new system replaced by one of the old system.
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Hold on a second... that document is a very specifically a standard for encoding names on passports, not a general transliteration standard. Those are domain-specific requirements: even Latin-alphabet letters are "transliterated" to remove diacritics (for instance German ä becomes ae, see
Appendix 9
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Road signs are being replaced as the roads are being repaired or new ones are built. That process is very slow in
Macedonia but hey, there are old road signs in Bulgaria aswell with the scientific transliteration, it's just they are lesser than those in Macedonia. When the corridor X is repaired, new
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Whether this is official or not, I think we should choose whichever version is more commonly used. If the government has indeed stopped using diacritics, which I hope is not the case since diacritics make words more visually pleasing at least to me, that doesn't necessarily mean that we should change
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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on
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I would hope that travel books would be written by people who actually travel to a place, talk to local people and look at local signs, and extensively study the actual "facts on the ground" and become experts. I hope no one is writing a travel book by staying at home and using only
Knowledge (XXG)
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Quite so. It is large scale due to the vast number of road signs and street names involved, which means it takes time, needs money, and in addition to the central state agencies is carried out by a number of local authorities too. It's easier with the ID documents and still easier with electronic
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Don't you think that the travel books look for information here on
Knowledge (XXG)? So when the reader goes to the website of the Municipality of Kochani he is confused because he seen "Kočani" at Knowledge (XXG)/TravelGuide and Kochani at the genuine web site? That's exactly why I suggested this,
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That article is from 2008, and (per Google
Translate) refers to a "proposal" by the Совет за македонски јазик that is applicable only to personal names. Later in the article there is some commentary that the time will soon come to discuss how to render place names in the Latin alphabet. So that
922:
for now, I'd like to see more citations about this new transliteration scheme. Surely it's been discussed in
Macedonian media, or perhaps a law was passed? Can you provide such citations, in English or in Macedonian? Is there a plan to redo road signs on major highways, is there any continuing
1172:
Shouldn't it be
Rechitsa? No properly developed transliteration system would use the same symbol for two completely different letters ч and ц? This suggests to me that it is too early to determine what any new 'official' system will require, and in the meantime leave the titles unchanged.
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gives Delčevo, Kočani, etc. This site usually gives all kinds of variants. But for these towns, just one spelling is given. So I assume the traditional spellings are still official. I sincerely hope that travel book authors do not copy spellings from Wiki, but rather have direct access to
1765:
Maybe, I have no idea, but the Delčevo example of Macedonian customs and Lonely Planet are what I was pointing out. They are in the minority in .mk usage, but still the common usage in English sources. My main point was about the customs, and lack of any official/government direction.
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any change, it takes note of it after it has already taken place or well underway. That might already be the case, but we need a bit more documentation. But in any case, your argument above simply doesn't reflect what Knowledge (XXG) does and what Knowledge (XXG) is. --
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I don't see evidence of large-scale changes. The vast majority, perhaps all, of the signs referring to Kičevo still spell it that way. There is not, currently, a mass project to remove all of the old road signs and replace them with ones using a different transliteration
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The article presents a number of comments made by different linguists, mentioning also proposals that were not adopted. However, the new transliteration in the passports was a fact already, with one of the comments complaining about the new spelling of some particular
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But Lonely planet and Macedonian customs can't be more relevant than the sources I presented. Now I think that it doesn't matter how much evidence of this new system I will provide, you will still find a way to keep the scientific one for unknown reasons to me.
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That's actually a problem, because it really ought to be Rechica if the transliteration proposed in this move request was being used. Google Maps seems to use Rechica. This makes it look like the transliteration situation is still in a state of flux. --
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road signs will be placed. And why are the road-signs most important "source" for the transliteration? We all know that road-signs are placed from different firms for every road and not all are always correct. It's a global issue, not only in Macedonia.
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on page IV-48). If, say, Croatia adopted this international standard for its passports, it does not follow that they would remove č š ž from their road signs (I am pretty sure they haven't done so). And German road signs still say Köln, not Koeln.
1302:"If it's official there are." Sounds logical but that's not necessarily the way authorities operate. The widespread practice is a fact, and we ought to be guided by that. As for the relevant official decision (or decisions), as I pointed out at
816:: ok, you've corrected it now. You know, when people have responded to your comments, you should not alter or redact them. It will make people's responses hard to understand without looking through the page history. You should strikethrough the
1698:
You are drawing wrong conclusions from your statistics, which shows (as I pointed out above) a clear dominance of 'Delchevo' over 'Delčevo'. As for 'Delcevo', that's anything but the school system according to which 'Delcevo'='Делцево'
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Skopje - 506 926 Aerodrom - 72 009 Butel - 36 154 Gazi Baba - 72 617 Gjorche Petrov - 41 634 Karposh - 59 666 Kisela Voda - 57 236 Saraj - 35 408 Centar - 45 412 Chair - 64 773 Shuto Orizari - 22 017
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These moves first started Aug 2011, despite the fact that many editors (including myself) are evidently sympathetic to adopting the new system if it is official and widespread, there is still no sourced information either on
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or school system 'Delčevo,' as mentioned above and put in a text box. I suppose the above was open to misreading if you hadn't noticed the Lonely Planet box above, but all the same please read more carefully.
799:: I find your perceived need to "protect" the English language strange and rather illogical. If you so care about it, howcome you don't even bother to write the word "English" capitalized, which is the rule?
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Actually those are older. Newer road signs don't use diacritics. The signs on the road Kumanovo-Tabanovce (released in September, 2011) are without diacritics. For example, Rečica is now spelled as Recica.
725:"To enter Bulgaria from Berovo, head 25km north to Delčevo (120MKD, three daily buses). Crossing from Delčevo to the yeah-baby university town of Blagoevgrad requires a taxi (€25)." Marika McAdam
1444:(Ж becomes Ž) - Macedonian Latin alphabet, Pravopis na makedonskiot literaturen jazik, B. Vidoeski, T. Dimitrovski, K. Koneski, K. Tošev, R. Ugrinova Skalovska- Prosvetno delo Skopje, 1970, p.99
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Knowledge (XXG) is not a source, and from sources published in 1970 (Vidoeski et al.) and 1993 (Friedman, second edition 2003) it could hardly 'appear' what "is still in majority use" in 2012.
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is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Knowledge (XXG) policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
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your own nomination, please remove. Otherwise, interesting information, please upload some new road-signs to wiki commons. And quite happily waiting for presentation of actual evidence on
1031:, published in 2010, uses the traditional system. That's as up-to-date as it gets. What system the government uses for ID cards and driver's licenses has nothing to do with anything.
1438:(Ж becomes Ž) - footnotes Училишна книга од прво одделение, Victor Friedman, "Macedonian", in: B. Comrie (ed.), The Slavonic Languages, Читаме и пишуваме латиница, училишна Книга
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customs.gov.mk is still issuing press releases using the old system, which indicates that there has been no systematic government instruction to move to the new system.
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I'd like to see some more evidence, less edit-warring, and more consensus at WikiProject Macedonia and Knowledge (XXG) talk:Naming conventions (Cyrillic) before a RM.
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seems to be an outdated reference which doesn't really serve as a citation to support these moves, because it seems to date from the beginning of the process. —
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26 May 2011 We wish to inform that the defect of the weighing platform at the Delčevo border crossing point has been repaired and the working activities at ...
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moves for now, since things need to go slowly and with consensus in the Macedonia area. Obviously things are in flux in Skopje as Fut.Perf points out re.
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1027:. For English-language GBooks post 2000, the traditional system is more common across the board, typically by a factor of four or five. The
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As far as the actual proposal, rightly or wrongly English-language sources are still using the old Yugoslav romanization of Macedonian:
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1004:. No one opposes a change to a Bulgarian-like transliteration system if you can present evidence, so present evidence. Cheers.
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the article names. I'd say a solid majority of road signs in the country still spell place-names with the diacritics. --
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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The most likely reason for the prevalence of "Delcevo" is that "č" is not as readily available to type as "c" is. --
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or here. Saying that "there are no official sources" doesn't help. If it's official there are. Please present them.
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And the signs in the links I made above are from 2010, so the "old" system was in use until at most 2 years ago. --
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931:). Can you provide citations to reassure us? I oppose for now, but we could perhaps revisit the issue later. --
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Publication about the natural change in population in the Republic of Macedonia (first quarter of 2012)
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The above search shows a significant number of official websites still using the old
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Are there no news media articles that could be cited, even if only in Macedonian? —
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use the same plus ts for c (the usage of ts for c requires further documentation).
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They are in use, please review your vote. Here are examples of their wide usage:
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Articles created or improved during WikiProject Europe's 10,000 Challenge
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1336:Како да се латинизира кирилицата (How to Romanize the Cyrillic Alphabet)
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Apcbg, I said nothing about 'Delcevo', obviously 'Delcevo'='Делцево'
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It would seem that the new Romanization system for Macedonian is the
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.
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If/when someone else nominates them, I'll participate in the RMs.
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Knowledge (XXG) article constitutes fair use. In addition to the
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per concerns that the proposed names aren't actually in use. —
1450:(Ж becomes Zh)- Се користи за документи во меѓународна употреба
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English version of the official website of the City of Skopje
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These newer road signs use the traditional transliteration:
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relates to whether to use the common/old or possibly new
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has had official status for Macedonian for decades (see
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Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Republic of Macedonia
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GSearch 19,200 / "Delchevo" site:.mk -Делчево 14,200
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GSearch 63,200 / "Delcevo" site:.mk -Делчево 46,200
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since I don't think this transition has occurred. --
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1381:standard introduced in 2004 as an amendment to the
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713:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Naming conventions (Cyrillic)
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837:: If you truly believed this, you would nominate
180:Fair use rationale for Image:Delcevo od kejot.jpg
1462:(Ж becomes Zh) is only used for e.g. passports.
1405:So this really isn't what we're looking for. —
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593:If these are indeed the official names then I
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820:. That's actually a wp rule for talkpages.
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1334:Yes there are, see the extensive article
1538:Born2cycle, which particular section in
1430:mk:Транслитерација на македонското писмо
845:to be renamed. We're still waiting. --
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1387:(Article 28). Hope this helps.
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350:Staro Nagoričane
346:
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200:but there is no
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55:
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1234:
1127:
753:as this is the
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451:
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432:Chucher-Sandevo
411:
373:
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331:
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182:
117:
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109:North Macedonia
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59:North Macedonia
29:
12:
11:
5:
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968:Support &
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925:Czech Republic
916:
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1540:WP:USEENGLISH
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1483:In ictu oculi
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1464:In ictu oculi
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1460:Документација
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1456:Училишно/ISO9
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1448:Документација
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1407:P.T. Aufrette
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1384:Passports Law
1380:
1379:
1378:ICAO DOC 9303
1374:
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1359:P.T. Aufrette
1355:
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1345:
1341:
1340:Globus Weekly
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1142:New Road Sign
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364:Krivogashtani
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244:
243:. Thank you.
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230:
226:
222:
219:Please go to
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1604:3) - page 54
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1185:? Really? -
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691:
685:AL3X TH3 GR8
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649:
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569:
514:Centar Zhupa
479:Šuto Orizari
474:Studenichani
359:Krivogaštani
274:
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261:
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218:
205:
191:
190:
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93:
40:WikiProjects
1783:Macedonicus
1703:'Делчево'.
1639:Macedonicus
1246:Macedonicus
1187:Sussexonian
1145:Macedonicus
1071:, Oxford's
1052:Macedonicus
978:Macedonicus
927:article to
699:Macedonicus
597:the move.--
580:Macedonicus
554:Vraneshtica
510:Centar Župa
470:Studeničani
394:Vrapchishte
30:Start-class
1820:Categories
1755:Local hero
1733:uchilishno
1725:uchilishno
1669:uchilishno
1522:Born2cycle
1235:Local hero
1177:. Anyway
1128:Local hero
637:Local hero
622:Local hero
550:Vraneštica
523:Belchishta
413:Arachinovo
333:Probishtip
279:Cúchullain
1572:AjaxSmack
974:Deltchevo
662:Fut.Perf.
408:Aračinovo
390:Vrapčište
328:Probištip
1588:ID cards
1436:Училишно
1079:Kauffner
1065:GeoNames
1033:Kauffner
895:I will.
709:contribs
695:contribs
544:Vevchani
519:Belčišta
504:Radovish
464:Sopishte
385:Rostusha
375:Krushevo
322:Pehchevo
300:Delchevo
214:fair use
198:fair use
1514:Support
1229:system.
1208:Support
997:support
970:Comment
950:Comment
929:Czechia
897:GoodDay
865:GoodDay
835:Comment
814:Comment
797:Comment
776:Comment
759:GoodDay
751:Support
595:support
564:Chashka
539:Vevčani
533:Kichevo
499:Radoviš
459:Sopište
453:Karposh
403:Zhelino
381:Rostuša
370:Kruševo
317:Pehčevo
311:Kochani
296:Delčevo
275:No move
1565:Oppose
1479:WT:CYR
1304:WT:CYR
1286:WT:CYR
1175:Oppose
1025:Oppose
1002:WT:CYR
920:Oppose
697:) aka
673:Oppose
650:Oppose
632:oppose
528:Kičevo
494:Konche
448:Karpoš
399:Želino
306:Kočani
36:scale.
1705:Apcbg
1520:. --
1497:Apcbg
1389:Apcbg
1372:name.
1344:Apcbg
1308:Apcbg
1261:Apcbg
1212:Apcbg
1183:Chair
1074:, or
559:Čaška
490:Konče
423:Chair
344:Shtip
1787:talk
1772:talk
1742:talk
1709:talk
1689:talk
1643:talk
1621:and
1552:talk
1526:talk
1501:talk
1487:talk
1468:talk
1442:ISO9
1411:talk
1393:talk
1363:talk
1348:talk
1326:talk
1312:talk
1294:talk
1265:talk
1250:talk
1216:talk
1191:talk
1179:Čair
1164:talk
1149:talk
1125:. --
1103:talk
1083:talk
1056:talk
1037:talk
1010:talk
982:talk
958:talk
937:talk
901:talk
887:talk
869:talk
851:talk
841:and
826:talk
805:talk
788:talk
763:talk
740:talk
703:talk
689:talk
584:talk
419:Čair
339:Štip
206:this
164:'s "
1721:not
1701:not
1607:GIS
1516:.
128:???
1822::
1789:)
1774:)
1744:)
1711:)
1691:)
1645:)
1613:,
1609:,
1602:,
1598:,
1554:)
1546:?
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1503:)
1489:)
1481:.
1470:)
1413:)
1395:)
1365:)
1350:)
1328:)
1314:)
1296:)
1284:,
1267:)
1252:)
1218:)
1193:)
1181:→
1166:)
1151:)
1122:,
1119:,
1105:)
1085:)
1077:.
1058:)
1039:)
1012:)
984:)
960:)
939:)
903:)
889:)
881:.
871:)
853:)
828:)
807:)
790:)
782:.
765:)
742:)
601:—
586:)
561:→
552:→
541:→
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512:→
501:→
492:→
481:→
472:→
461:→
450:→
439:→
430:→
421:→
410:→
401:→
392:→
383:→
372:→
361:→
352:→
341:→
330:→
319:→
308:→
298:→
216:.
1785:(
1770:(
1740:(
1707:(
1687:(
1641:(
1600:2
1596:1
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761:(
738:(
706:·
701:(
692:·
687:(
665:☼
605:—
582:(
286:c
283:/
136:.
42::
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