862:
border. Ethnographic studies performed by
Finnish, Russian and European 19th century ethnographers (such as Lönnröt, Sjögren, Castren, Keoppen and others) indicate that there were no such things as "Finnish Karelians" or "Russian Karelians" from the ethnic point of view as late as the end of 19th century. What is often mistaken, by modern Finnish ethnographers, for ethnic identity is is a mere citizenship of ethnic Karelians on both sides of the border, where some are of Finnish citizenship while others are of Russian citizenship. There is one more historical aspect that has to be mentioned here which caused this artificial "ethnic" division - Karelian Independence movement in White and Olonets Karelia in 1918-1922 and the Finland-Soviet Wars that took place in the first half of the 20th century. The rhetoric that was used by some of the notable Finnish politicians (K.G.E. Mannerheim in particular) on the subject of Karelia and Karelians in the first half of the 20th century were completely abandoned and abolished in Finland after the Peace Treaty of Paris, 1947. Any mention of ethnic ties between the population of Finland and Karelians, that still lived in the Soviet Union was prohibited. The theory that there are "Finnish Karelians" and "Russian Karelians", which are ethnically different was created, however insubstantial it was. Most of the ethnic Karelians were assimilated into Finns, merely for political reasons. Finnish political leaders simply did not want to mess with the Soviet Union over the subject of Karelia any more. Hence all this nonsense about different ethnic groups of Karelians.
1063:
Karelia, Olonets
Karelia in the Russian Empire were of Karelian ethnicity at that time . In different sources the ethnic subgroups were called Finns and Karelians, sometimes Finns and Finno-Karelians but there was always a distinctive ethnic separation of Finns and Karelians in those studies. Having said all that I would also like to point out that all ethnic Karelians that inhabited the provinces that belonged to the Duchy of Finland also viewed themselves as part of the Finnish nation, which did not change when Finland gained its independence in 1918. The events that took place in the Russian Karelia in 1918-1922 indicate that the majority of the Russian Karelians, though being Orthodox, desired to belong to Finland and to be part of the Finnish nation too. However due to the Antanta intervention in the White Karelia and the Soviet intervention in the Olonets Karelia it never happened. The evidence suggests that an ethnic Karelian settling in Finland gets fully assimilated into the Finnish nation within 1 generation as the difference between the nations is so small.
1321:
ethnicity - in other words, the
Orthodox East Karelians. (Minahan mentions that some Karelians live in Finland too. It is easy to see what he is referring to: Before 1939 and 1944, there were 55 000 Karelian-speaking Orthodox Karelians in Finland too, but after the evacuation they have been linguistically assimilated in the Finnish population). Information of the identity of the Finnish Karelians is extremely essential, necessary and relevant here as long as both of the distinct groups of Karelians are discussed in a same article (which is perhaps unwise). It is very significant that the Finnish Karelians do not share the same ethnic or national identity with East Karelians, despite of the often expressed feeling of being closely related with them. I cannot understand why you want to obscure this issue.--
1815:
example, the
Finnish Language is called "idioma finés" in Spanish, and "idioma finlandés" is discouraged as wrong, because all the languages of Finland (Finnish, Swedish, Sámi, Karelian, etc) are "idiomas finlandeses" ("languages of Finland"). The same happens with people: someone of, for example, Swedish ethnic background who is a citizen of Finland is a "finlandés" but not a "finés", while someone of Finnish ethnic background who is a citizen of the USA is a "finés" but not a "finlandés". Looks like I was biased towards seeing the same differences happen in English, that's the reason I mentioned them in here, sorry for that. --
1527:
southeastern dialects of finnish, so I do not have any personal interest on this, and as far as I understand, in
Finland there is no controversy about the facts told in the source I gave. The position of Karelian language in Finland has been recognized only recently, as was told in the text, but not all the inhabitants of the ceded areas spoke karelian languge, but, instead, in the western part of the area southeastern dialects of Finnish were spoken. And all this, as far as I can understand, is not matter of opiniin but, on the contrary, widely held and undisputed facts.--
800:: FINNISH 4,700,000 in Finland, 93.5% of population (1993); 300,000 in Sweden (1987); 12,000 in Norway (1993); 5,153 in Estonia (1993); 214,168 in USA (1970 census); 36,725 in Canada (1971 census); 6,000,000 in all countries (1995 WA). Uralic, Finno-Ugric, Finno-Permic, Finno-Cheremisic, Finno-Mordvinic, Finno-Lappic, Balto-Finnic. Dialects: SOUTHWESTERN FINNISH, HÄME (TAVAST), SOUTH POHJANMAA, CENTRAL AND NORTH POHJANMAA, PERÄPOHJA, SAVO (SAVOLAX), SOUTHEASTERN FINNISH (FINNISH KARJALA, FINNISH KARELIAN).
1467:"in Finland, Finnish Karelians traditionally live in the regions of Savonia and Northern and Southern Karelia. As Finland had to cede parts of Karelia to the Soviet Union in World War II, evacuated Finnish Karelians settled also elsewhere in Finland. They traditionally speak Karelian. However owing to Karelian not being recognized as its own language by the Finnish government until recently, most Karelians had no choice but to learn Finnish and now speak mostly Finnish Karelian dialect. "
31:
312:
291:
1043:"About dialect and language: The dialect spoke by evacuated Finns are not same than language (or dialect) spoke by Karelians. This fact has never criticized by linguists. Only that is, if Karelian language is a distinc language or a dialect of Finnish.Kahkonen 10:02 10 May 2004 (UTC)" Not true. About 10% of Finnish nationals evacuated from Karelia were Karelian speaking ethnic Karelians such as my family. You don't seem to be aware of our existence
527:
438:
411:
88:
64:
322:
1079:
information should not be restored if it is completely irrelevant. It is hardly possible to estimate the number of
Finnish Karelians very exactly, as it is a diffuse sub-ethnic identity. The present-day Karelian districts in Finland have 300 000 inhabitants, but not all of them might designate themselves as Karelians - and people identifying themselves as Karelians live in all parts in Finland.--
1780:). What is usually understood to traditionally differentiate Karelians as a people and Karelians as a sub-group of Finns is that the former speak the Karelian language and are Orthodox Christians while the latter speak Finnish and are Lutheran Christians. The former also feel they are their own nation and the latter identify themselves as one of the sub-groups of Finns (among others like
366:
2003:
898:(nowadays most of the Russian Karelians speak Russian). Russian Karelians have not traditionally considered themselves to be Finns, but have cultivated their own identity instead. Attempts to obliterate the difference between two different kinds of Karelians are based either on misunderstanding and limited knowledge of Finnish history, or on some national-chauvinistic agenda.
448:
22:
172:
880:
ancient times. Also, I must protest agaist the "Flag of
Karelians" in the article. This flag was the flag, designed by the national romantic artist Akseli Gallen-Kallela, for the so-called Uhtua republic, more generally for East Karelia. It was used during the Finnish occupation of East Karelia by the occupants and that's about it.
1596:
on there; Jääski which was populated by
Finnish Karelians, not the Karelians this article is about. It would be better if English Knowledge did the same thing as Finnish and Russian Wikipedias, and had two different articles, one for these Karelian-speaking Karelians this article is about, and another one for Finnish Karelians.
782:"Myö annettii sil viel yks pien pala ja lähettii juoksemaa nii kovast ku jaksettii. Mut eihä se karhu kauva sitä yhtä pallaa syönt. Se läks juoksemaa mei peräst ja sai meijät kii iha vähä matka pääs. Mei pit taas antaa sil vehnästä eikä myö ennää hirvitty lähtee juoksemaakaa ku meitä alko jo vähä hirvittää se karhu kujjeet."
1579:
reliable and undisputed (in fact the same I gave above), but, instead, the text in the chapter written with reference to the source was written for the gratest part against the source given and the interpretations and claims made in text could not be found in the source at all. So I rewrote the whole
658:
keep in mind that some readers might, so it's important not to "disturb" such readers with statements that conflict with their understanding (unless their understanding is patently false AND unusual), which would give our text a low credibility. I hope we agree that things common for
Karelians are to
651:
Think of the difference between Finnic and Finns. A Karelian can be, but doesn't have to be, a Finn. While all
Karelians are Finnic, only the western Karelians are Finns. Remember that we write for an intended public that may know very little or nothing. Do not assume that the reader know anything in
643:
I mean this, what I wrote to Tuomas in my Talk page: Do You think that other Finns and evacuated Karelians are 'different peoples'? I, and official Finland and other world, do not think. So you want to say that Karelians living in East Karelia are Finns? Or that Finns are Karelians? I think _that_ is
619:
We explain more, and state less. If you by "different types" mean that Savo people were transferred to Ladoga-Karelia, then write that with years and figures if you know. If you mean that people's mentality was influenced by the difference between being a serf or a taxed freeholder, then write that -
1850:
Now I wonder if English did, too, use initailly Finn and Finnish as two different concepts because of Swedish or any other language influence and then started forgetting it as we did, until the terms became interchangeable; or there is another reason for the terms in English to be synonims... God, I
1814:
By the way, the whole Finn/Finnish thing looks like a bias on my side: we do have that differentiation in my first language (Spanish, where we use "finés" for things related to the Finn people and "finlandés" for things related to Finland, although people make mistakes with the words sometimes). For
1703:
multiple users came to the conclusion that "Karelians" page should probably be made into a disambiguation page. This disambiguation page would have links to two articles, one being this and the other being about Finnish Karelians (named Karelians (Finns) or something along those lines). Latter which
1595:
I tried to fix some of the issues brought up by Urjanhai above in the first section of the article. However, it would be good if somebody with better sources could check it and possibly phrase it better. The fact is that this article has MASSIVE issues. There is even a picture of a woman from Jääski
1062:
I would like to state couple things here about Karelians in Finland. Several studies done by different ethnographers in the 19th century indicate that majority of the population that inhabited Karelian Isthmus and Ladoga Karelia, Southern and Northern Karelia of the Grand Duchy of Finland and White
700:
Are the Flemish ethnically different from the Dutch? Are Norwegians ethnically different from Swedes? Are Scanians? Are Ålanders? Are Finland-Swedes? You may have convictions making you answer these question with yes or no, but that's not my point. My point is that both answers are reasonable and in
2090:
i am talking about not some karelian nationalist groups, but the ethnicity overall. Hanging this flag over all of the ethnic karelians and not just the nationalists is like hanging the soviet flag over all ethnic russians. I didnt hear of no vote for karelians to show up and decide that it is their
1252:
I'm willing to give you some time in order for you to get a chance to clean up the article. Just that in case you're going to proceed editing the article according to your opinions and without referring to any published sources printed in English, I would have to revert this article back to the way
1148:
So you have misused the source, perhaps in an oversight. Besides the introductory part you restored in the article is of very poor quality, very confusing and in many respects conflicting with the rest of the article. To example, the separation between the Finnish and East Karelians is mentioned in
861:
The statement that "Russian Karelians" and "Finnish Karelians" are not of the same ethnic group is completely incorrect and insubstantial. Historical evidence suggests that after being divided in 1323, Karelians have kept their identity and ties until first half of 20th century on both sides of the
1739:
Just a little extra detail: I consistently see the use of the word "Finn" as an ethnic/"nation-state creation"/XIX century nationalism term, while the term "Finnish" is used as an administrative/current country/citizenship term. Maybe my interpretation of the terms is wrong, but if that's how they
1509:
in Northern Karelia. In 16th century or so, Karelian langue was still spoken in nothern Karelia but then there was some migration in and out and Savonian dialects spread there. In the areas ceded to Soviet union after World war two, the southeastern dialects of Finnish language were spoken in the
1299:
Well, in case you think it's better now, why did you tag your own edits with the neutrality disputed tag? regarding Minahan, he clearly describes the flag as Karelian without any reference to Orthodox or Lutherianism. In case you say that the Finnish Karelians think of themselves as a sub-group of
1267:
James Minahan is very obviously discussing only the Orthodox East Karelians, and does not suggest in any way that the flag is connected to Lutheran Finnish Karelians. The flag should, can and will be removed from the infobox, as no source is presented for the uncorrect claim that it is a symbol of
559:
The Karelian language is very closely related to the Finnish language, and particularly by Finnish linguists seen as a dialect of Finnish. The dialect of Karelians who are citizens of Finland is however uncontroversially considered a dialect of Finnish, since that's the standard language taught in
897:
Let us make one point perfectly clear: The "Russian Karelians and "Finnish Karelians" are not the same ethnic group. The Russian Karelians spoke their own Karelian language (some of them still do) which was closely related to the eastern dialects of Finnish, but is neverthless a distinct language
879:
I suppose a different language (Karelian dialect of Finnish vs. Karelian) and religion (Lutheranism vs. Russian Orthodoxy) are inconsequential as far as ethnicities are conserned in your book? Sure, all Karelians have the same origin, but a whole lot of water has passed under the keel since those
1842:
When I learnt of the proper use of the words in Spanish I started seeing they were not used consistently in the Spanish Knowledge, so I started a "campaign" to change them all using Replacer, but since I wanted to be really sure and have some arguments in case someone was against my edits once I
1735:
If Karelians are mostly considered two different ethnic groups and only fringe groups or individuals find that controversial, then the choice is obvious: split the Karelia article, create the Finnish Karelian one and the disambiguation, and move this one. If the controversy is real and there are
1388:
And this can happened of course as long as there is a source printed in English that represents the facts this way. Since WP is not dealing with people's personal identities, either someone identifies him/herself as a sub-Finn Karelian, Karelian in general or an Eastern-Karelian should not be an
696:
With virtually all ethnicities you can find some kind of influence back and forth with neighbouring groups. Hence members of a certain ethnicity that become isolated from eachother can often be considered to evolve into separate ethnicities. But again, it's not easy to say when such a process is
676:
But, Finns and 'western' Karelians are not distinc ethnical group and nor are 'Swedish-speaking Finns' and Finns. Go look Finland's official pages and post here, if you find distinc ethnical groups of Western Karelians and Finns. There are about 300 000 such Finns and at least 1 000 000 who have
2105:
well, in general, the Karelians themselves use it as widely as possible as their own flag (despite the fact that there are not so many Karelians left because of not identifying themselves as Karelians in the census). By the way, many Russians also use the Soviet flag as their own. But this is a
1846:
When researching, I recall reading somewhere that in the Finnish language the difference doesn't exist (I remember even the word "suomalainen" because I loved the way it sounds), and we have that difference between both words because of either Swedish or German influence, I don't remember which
1284:
After reading English websites, it seems that in English the ethnonym Karelians refer mainly to the (Orthodox) East Karelians, and does not generally include the concept of (Lutheran) Finnish Karelians. It would be advisable to reduce this article to discuss only the East Karelians and take the
688:
Indeed, borders of ethnicity and nations are to a large degree arbitrary. Hence one must keep in mind in who's interest different definitions are. In accordance with many Russian sources, you can argue that those Karelians that came under Swedish and later Finnish rule were un-Kareliïzed if not
2075:
Well, in general, it's just a historical fact of how this flag appeared. Secondly, it was the Karelians themselves who chose this flag as the basis, so it would be unlikely that they would “покрутили пальцем у виска”. No one forcibly imposed it on the Karelians, so it's not up to us to decide.
1788:, etc). That is the situation simplified, of course. As for "real world" controversies, from what I've seen nowadays it's mostly about ethnic-group-Karelians not liking it if they are called Finns/Finnish, while Finnish Karelians feeling that their identity is strongly tied to being Finnish. --
1731:
In this very discussion page I see the subject of the differentiation of Karelians to be controversial. Maybe it's just a couple of editors but it could be a "real world" controversy. I'd try to be sure of that first (not saying you aren't, just saying I'm not and I prefer not to vote about it
923:
Yes. I hope that those favoring the current version of the article would write their reasons here. The current version claims that these are the same people, which is 1) not true, 2) anti-consensus (also by looking at this talk page), 3) not backed by any sources either. By the way, one has to
1526:
of the ceded areas have been speaking the southeastern dialects of Fiinish language all the time at least trough the 19th and 20th centuries as well before the WW2 and after that. Those from the eastern parts spoke karelian language. I myself am not speaker of either Karelian language or the
1320:
Neutrality tag was a protest against some of your edits, such as the presentation of the East Karelian flag as a symbol of all Karelians. Read the Minahan's text carefully, and you will see that he is very obviously discussing only the non-Finnish Karelians belonging to the distinct Karelian
1444:
About 10% or so of the 400 000 or so evacuated were ethnic Karelians. So not all Finnish Karelians are part of the same "tribe". They share history with each other but you can't deny the effects of centuries of assimilation. I am an ethnic Karelian and I support the "two Karelians" concept.
1078:
Some misinformed person restored a nonsensical piece of disinformation into the article. The numbers on Finnish people evacuated from the ceded territories in 1939 and 1944 simply is not the same as the number of Karelians in Finland, as Finnish Karelia was not ceded completely. Referenced
831:
Hmm, I just added info about the south western dialects to the article, take a look and comment on that. I even added some footnotes to sites that unfortunately are in Finnish. Kahkonen, note that this article is about the language of the Karelians, not the Karelian language. --
570:
I don't know. There has still not made clear difference between Karelians and Finnish Karelians. Karelians are Karelians living mainly in Republic of Karelia. Finnish Karelians are however Finnish people like Tavastians (hämäläiset) are, or Savolax (savolaiset), or Proper Finns
1871:
which is a disambiguation page. How do you think it should be handled, if this page is moved to "Karelians (ethnic group)", would "Karelians" be made to redirect to "Karelian" then? Not sure if there's point in having 2 different disamb pages for "Karelian" and "Karelians".
628:
Throughout recorded history, Karelia had been under the rule of either Sweden (Finland) or Russia (Novgorod), but its inhabitants were almost exclusively Finno-Ugrians. After Finland gained independence in 1917, Karelia was divided between the two states, Finland and Soviet
1279:
tells of the history of the East Karelian flag. The infobox of the article is generally so confused that it is a disgrace. The introductory part is relatively good after my edits, referring to a website maintained by an institution under the Finnish Ministry of Education.
1219:. I'm clad that you are willing to claim about your competence regarding the subject. Please do not hesitate to show it in practice by editing the article according to secondary published sources and cleaning it up by providing inline citations etc. and following the
774:"Enne vahnas Karjalas oli vähä peldomuadu, sendäh mešäs ajettih kaskie. Kaski ajettih keviäl, konzu jo puuloih roih täüzi lehti. Puut kuattih, karzittih. Parembat parret mendih dieloih, karumbat päittih hallokse. Tulien vuon se kaski poltettih, sit künnettih."
845:
Yes, I tried to add this information, but they always deleted it. You did it better, thank you. But, why there is still that stupid clause "Karelians living in Finland learn Finnish standard language in school." Of course they do! So do I and so do all Finns.
680:
About dialect and language: The dialect spoke by evacuated Finns are not same than language (or dialect) spoke by Karelians. This fact has never criticized by linguists. Only that is, if Karelian language is a distinc language or a dialect of Finnish.
576:
In Finnish language there is not Karelian dialect but Southeastern dialects (kaakkoismurteet). Karelian language is different than that Southeastern dialect. Karelian language is so near to Finnish language that some linguist see it as a dialect of
2120:
And what flag do you propose as the Karelian national flag? The flag of the Karelian Republic in this capacity is not suitable, if only because it is just the flag of one of the subjects of the Federation. In a row, would the Tver Karelians use it
1094:
Please note that in case you continue editing the article according to your opinions that contradicts what the given sources say, the article is going to be listed for protection. Feel free to introduce any facts to the article according to
672:
I think this is same among 'Swedish-speaking Finns' Swedes or Finns. Following this logic we can talk about Swedes who live in Sweden and in Western Finland, and only they are Finns. So: "A Swede can be, but doesn't have to be, a Finn."
536:
421:
659:
be mentioned first; Things different for different Karelians are to be mentioned thereafter? If you agree with official Finland, then I think this is most of all a matter of linguistics, since I don't believe to be in conflict with
1373:
Or, we can make Karelians into a disamb page that says Karelians may refer to Finnish Karelians see Finnish people and Eastern Karelians, see Eastern Karelians or whatever is the most common name for Orthodox Karelians used in
804:(T. Salminen). Finnish is closely related to Karelian and Olonetsian. About 300,000 are bilingual in Swedish. National language. Typology: SVO. Christian. Braille Bible. Bible 1642-1991. NT 1548-1976. Bible portions 1891-1986.
2189:
2043:) Again, its all subjective but if you would have went to Karelia and asked a random ethnic Karel of their flag, they would have just "покрутили пальцем у виска", of course if you dont get lucky enough to meet this guy:
1223:. Leaving the article in current state is unacceptable and since you haven't provided any sources to your opinions and claims above regarding the flag etc, these edits of yours can be reverted to back to according to
1978:
its not there neither in Finnish or Russian, nor i can find any other ethnicity article that would have their own flag in the infobox (probably because i didnt look too hard for it), same goes for the area article
1285:
information of the Finnish Karelians to separate articles discussing the Karelian provinces of Finland. (Finnish Karelians are not an ethnic group, but rather a regional group included in the Finnish ethnicity).--
35:
2254:
1708:. There was a little bit of conversation about what these two articles should be named. I made the suggestion of naming them Karelians (ethnic group) and Karelians (Finns) in the same spirit as we have articles
689:
evacuated to Tver. But this is not in accordance with the usage in either Finland or the English speaking world. In English, the notion of the Fennomans and AKS has had some success, which also reflects in the
1773:
1609:
2179:
1810:
All that seems legit, you've solved my concerns. You have my vote and will see the same things happen in the Spanish Knowledge (where I usually am one of the editors that works in the articles related to
2249:
588:
So what to do? We know, that there is two types of Karelians: Karelians who live in Finland and consider themselves Finns and Karelians who live in Republic of Karelia and consider themselves Karelians.
2135:
I do not dare to propose a new flag for Karelians — I just think, and again, thats just a subjective view of mine, that the flag should be replaced with the map of where the Karelians live, thats it.
1740:
are used and I understand the Karelian topic properly, then these Karelians wouldn't be "Karelian Finns" but "Finnish Karelians" (as they are actually referred to in this very article, by the way). --
2199:
2194:
1828:
That makes sense. Swedish has the same thing between "finnar" and "finländare", while in Finnish there is no differentiation. Sometimes it would be very useful to have that differentiation though.
1658:- Apart from the nomination there is one !vote in favour. For those against moving there is one !vote against. Were it simply numerical I might relist or call this a straight no-consensus. However
807:
This is mentioned somehow even in Red Book: " Ingrians is not a separate language but consists of eastern Finnish dialects (the vernaculars of the Savo and southeastern dialects of Ingermanland"
1117:
Given sources I removed are completely mispresented, irrelevant and misleading so they cannot have any value whatsoever. That should be evident to anyone who knows anything about this matter!
2014:, which is considered the first national state of the Karelians until it was liquidated during the . Since the national movement of Karelians, this flag has been considered the national flag.
1227:
any time. where it clearly names the flag as the Karelian flag without any reference to "East Karelians". regarding c 140,000 Karelians living in Finland, the note always said that they were
1864:
Not sure if English had any divisions, they have words like Swede/Swedish, Dane/Danish and I've only ever seen those as synonyms as well. I do share your love for languages hahah
255:
228:
218:
203:
1580:
chapter according to the actual source. Also the arhcive link was totally needless because the resource had been there all the time, only the url had slightly changed.--
233:
223:
1160:, is available for online reading if you follow the link and everybody can verify the facts. In case you continue without presenting any sources and, adding facts like
2244:
1121:
Does your source even claim that? I do not believe it does, so you are probably using the source in a way comparable to original research. The East Karelian flag is
2209:
1215:
Please note that in case you choose to comment on contributors instead of the content also in the future, you comments can be simply removed from this talk page pr
142:
1847:
exactly, but in case it came from German, it would make sense they "copied" it from Swedish first, if we look at the history of Finland and the geography involved.
1673:
152:
1099:, any claim or opinion that is not sourced is going to be reverted and removed. Any removal or altering the sourced text is going to take the article closer to
1700:
268:
1197:
claim that the 140,000 war evacuees are the only Finnish Karelians or that the East Karelian flag is a symbol of the Finnish Karelians too. In other words you
2224:
1201:
the source, and anyone can check this. It is obvious that you know next to nothing about the Karelians and presumably care even less, so why do you bother?--
571:(varsinaissuomalaiset), or Bothnians (pohjalaiset), or uusimaalaiset. For example: President of Finland, Martti Ahtisaari, is Finn, karjalainen not Karelian.
387:
2214:
2204:
1119:
It is simply absurd to suggest that the number of still living evacuated persons from the ceded territories is the same as the number of Finnish Karelians.
128:
1545:
the neutrality but just misconseptions and misunderstandings abnout the basic facts on which there is no controvesrsy (at least with the passage cited).--
213:
1764:
Both Finnish and Russian Wikipedias (aka places where I'd expect people to have the most issue about these concepts) have different articles for both (
623:
Although I do of course not endorse everything at the karjalan liitto site, I would like to remind you of the following prominently located statement:
2174:
1510:
western parts of the area and Karelian language was spoken in the eastern part of the area. Also, the southeastern dialects of Finnish were spoken in
1736:
enough people and/or groups that believe Karelians are a single group, then I believe they should be in a single article that covers the controversy.
2239:
1705:
507:
393:
264:
104:
715:
So why not to add these tips into page when they are facts? Saying like "In Finland, West Karelians are considered and consider themselves Finns".
2184:
517:
1464:
I do not bother to read trough the whole article and the whole discussion just now but the following passage is clearly incorrect and erraneous:
103:, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
2229:
2219:
373:
1575:
In the chapter "Language" there was a template about relying on single source. This, however, was not the main problem, as the source given
2259:
1202:
1080:
914:
881:
722:
And thank you, you are saying I'm not a Finn ethnically :-) Go and say to Martti Ahtisaari he is not ethnically Finn :-) Or Kimi Räikkönen.
1670:
also casts doubt on it. I see nothing that rebuts these points, but if you wish to discuss this further come and find me on my talk page.
1645:
Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
785:
1322:
1286:
1269:
1130:
176:
95:
69:
1335:
So it has become be obvious that this article should be mostly about the east Karelians and the Finnish Karelians should be a part of
344:
1300:
Finnish people, how would be that relevant to the article here? Everything about Finnish sub-groups should go into the article about
1339:
as the subgroup. The article can briefly mention the historic relationship but should have a note on top of the article saying that
1001:
951:
924:
remember also the radical population changes which occurred in the 1600s. The article in the Finnish Knowledge is in an OK shape. --
483:
751:
Again, I want to emphasize that: "In Finnish language there is not Karelian dialect but Southeastern dialects (kaakkoismurteet)."
2234:
1560:
just now I did not have time to rewrite the introduction. In the source I gave above there is all information that is needed. --
2169:
2039:
republic of Uhtua only existed on paper, the flag was rarely used by anyone besides the Irish-Karelian regiment I think. (See
1253:
James Minahan has represented the facts in his book. So please, do not hesitate to put your claimed competence in practice.--
1969:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
335:
296:
479:
461:
416:
44:
1662:
has raised very strong reasons, based in established guidelines, for not carrying out the proposed move. Particularly
701:
most cases probable. Therefore it's good to be careful in one's wordings. Therefore I reverted your recent change here
1709:
1473:. That is: 1) people living in Savonia are not regarded as Karelian neither by themselves or anyone else. They are
1636:
1903:
Nice, thanks for the insight. If there are no more participants in this convo, I'll take care of it next week.
1502:
1206:
929:
910:
885:
1696:
1084:
810:
1947:. (I'll add a DAB hatnote now.) In addition, both groups are ethnic groups, so the proposed title violates
1944:
1450:
1326:
1290:
1273:
1134:
1048:
1146:
Benjamin's book does not suggest in any way that the II World War evacuees were the only Finnish Karelians.
777:
763:
But: "Karelian language is so near to Finnish language that some linguist see it as a dialect of Finnish."
190:
906:
767:
2061:
either way its just a bad idea to hang a flag on an ethnic group, or to hang an ethnic group on a flag.
2017:
And yes, the national flags of other ethnicities are also available in infoboxes, for example, like the
1895:
1856:
1820:
1745:
1646:
466:
50:
1446:
1189:
Your comments are simply so misinformed that I do not know what to do about them. Unlike you suggest,
1044:
561:
1891:
1852:
1816:
1741:
786:
http://www.internetix.ofw.fi/opinnot/opintojaksot/8kieletkirjallisuus/aidinkieli/murteet/kaakkmur.html
1713:
1149:
the language part of the article; you cannot remove the information from the introductory part only.
902:
1064:
863:
21:
1952:
1948:
1777:
1667:
1649:
after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
1601:
1068:
925:
867:
607:
343:
on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
1937:
1663:
1585:
1565:
1550:
1532:
1501:
in the 19th an d 20the century. Instead, they have, at least in 19th and 20th century spoken the
1471:
1011:
961:
819:
1769:
1597:
2011:
1908:
1877:
1833:
1793:
1721:
1617:
1506:
1498:
1482:
1478:
998:
948:
664:
635:
992:
942:
802:
Southeastern dialects called 'Karelian' in colloquial Finnish are distinct from true Karelian
1515:
1494:
1470:
How the things are in reality is explained here (in Finnish) by a reliable, neutral source:
1394:
1379:
1364:
1309:
1258:
1180:
1108:
1034:
791:
620:
or, maybe even better: propose wordings here if you fear that you might be misunderstood.
2140:
2126:
2111:
2096:
2081:
2066:
2052:
2030:
1988:
1682:
1220:
1024:
985:
973:
833:
311:
290:
244:
1125:
a symbol of Finnish Karelians. And so on. You are abusing the Knowledge rules to present
2044:
797:
1659:
1519:
1348:
1342:
1336:
1301:
1172:
1153:
526:
379:
327:
134:
1843:
started fixing them (it didn't happen lol), I reasearched it for a little while first.
560:
schools. Finnish Karelians speaks however Finnish. ??????? What somebody meant here?
2163:
1581:
1561:
1546:
1528:
1490:
1216:
1100:
847:
822:
725:
682:
645:
613:
581:
453:
772:
And compare (this is not same text, but you can see differences): Karelian language:
1904:
1873:
1829:
1789:
1717:
1613:
1096:
100:
87:
63:
437:
410:
1229:
Finnish records of people born in Karelia, the areas ceded to the USSR after WWII
2018:
1390:
1375:
1360:
1305:
1254:
1176:
1104:
1030:
739:
705:
1765:
1605:
2136:
2122:
2107:
2092:
2077:
2062:
2048:
2026:
1984:
1781:
1678:
443:
317:
1716:. Nobody has objected so I'm bringing the conversation over to this article.
1785:
1692:
1474:
1356:
210:
Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution:
2002:
1156:, I might have to revert your edits because of it. The source you claim is
1029:. More work is needed of course but I hope this puts things back on track--
811:
http://www.kotikielenseura.fi/virittaja/hakemistot/jutut/vir98palander.html
204:
Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups
1868:
99:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to
2040:
1359:. Do you want to take care of it so that the mess could be cleaned up?--
778:
http://www.jns.fi/museokoulu/kokokuva/kansanperinne/kaakkoismurteet.html
1980:
1887:
1486:
1277:
365:
340:
1505:, and of those the southeast Finnish dialects in southern Carelia and
768:
http://www.jns.fi/museokoulu/kokokuva/kansanperinne/karjalanmurre.html
171:
2022:
1511:
470:
1761:
page on this very Knowledge starting with "Finns or Finnish people".
1231:, there is no need to duplicate that information in the infobox etc.
1191:
my claims are in no way in conflict with the source book you present
478:
Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the
1758:
1436:
Ethnographic Maps of European Russia published in 1849, 1851, 1874
735:
757:"Karelian language is different than that Southeastern dialect."
2144:
2130:
2115:
2100:
2085:
2070:
2056:
2034:
1992:
1974:
why is this "national karelian flag" everywhere on english wiki?
1959:
1940:(a disambiguation page is not needed for only two articles) and
1912:
1898:
1881:
1859:
1837:
1823:
1797:
1748:
1725:
1701:
Talk:Karelia (historical province of Finland)#Splitting proposal
1686:
1666:
means there is no point in the proposed disambiguation page and
1621:
1589:
1569:
1554:
1536:
1454:
1398:
1383:
1368:
1330:
1313:
1294:
1262:
1210:
1184:
1138:
1112:
1088:
1072:
1052:
1038:
933:
889:
871:
836:
825:
742:
708:
667:
638:
596:
564:
238:
2190:
Knowledge level-5 vital articles in Society and social sciences
1175:
so that it would be possible to clean it up finally. thanks! --
1165:
East Karelian flag (Note: Not a symbol of the Finnish Karelians
608:
http://www.valtioneuvosto.fi/tpk/puheet-1999/P990619.karen.html
1757:
As far as I know, Finns and Finnish are synonyms. We have the
820:
http://learning.lib.vt.edu/slav/nat_ethnic_nordic.html#finland
717:
This is a fact and "we only list facts" - it's NPOV, you know?
702:
382:
in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
378:
This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the
137:
in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
133:
This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the
15:
1355:
that should have a note, for inf about Eastern Karelians see
728:
19:23, 10 May 2004 (added some more 07:40 11 May 2004) (UTC)
2001:
525:
1167:
etc. the claims that are in conflict with the given book,
677:
Karelian parents. So post here, if you find such numbers.
2255:
Demographics and ethnography of Russia task force articles
792:
http://www.nordiska.uu.se/ICLaVE2/ICLaVE_pdf/Markkola.pdf
2180:
Knowledge vital articles in Society and social sciences
734:
By the way: You might be interested in the new page on
2250:
C-Class Russia (demographics and ethnography) articles
2200:
Start-Class articles with conflicting quality ratings
2195:
C-Class vital articles in Society and social sciences
2045:
https://www.twitch.tv/uebermarginal/v/1870981001?sr=a
798:
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/ethno/Finl.html
537:
the demographics and ethnography of Russia task force
1127:
misleading information based on mispresented sources
731:
What did I say? You should maybe read one time more?
339:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
256:
Knowledge:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests
229:
Category:Ethnic groups articles needing reassessment
219:
Category:Ethnic groups articles needing merge action
815:And simply google "southeastern dialects Finnish".
1162:300 000 inhabitants in present-day Finnish Karelia
760:This is a fact, that no linguist has critisized.
754:This is a fact, that no linguist has critisized.
392:This article has not yet received a rating on the
234:Category:Ethnic groups articles needing attention
224:Category:Ethnic groups articles needing infoboxes
2047:, but again they are just the town's crazymen.
1867:Btw, I just noticed there is an article called
1886:Yes, as happens with other similar cases like
1497:region in Finland do not and have not spoken
200:of articles within the scope of this project.
8:
1341:For information about Finish Karelians, see
1704:does not exist yet but would be split from
997:. John Benjamins Publishing Company. 2000.
947:. Greenwood Publishing Group. pp. pp. 368.
1635:The following is a closed discussion of a
1489:. 2) Most people living in the regions of
766:See? If not see page: (sorry, in Finnish)
405:
285:
214:Category:Unassessed Ethnic groups articles
160:
58:
1604:are equivalents to this article, whereas
1276:) 14:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC) This site
592:See link (about Finns called Karelians):
1706:Karelia (historical province of Finland)
1541:And so, the main issue to my opinion is
2245:High-importance C-Class Russia articles
1429:
994:Language Death and Language Maintenance
407:
287:
60:
19:
2210:High-importance Ethnic groups articles
1020:
1009:
981:
969:
959:
2041:https://voinitsa.ru/pages/art261.aspx
1171:the article is going to be listed at
818:And good collection of links in page
603:President Martti Ahtisaari's speech:
164:WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks:
7:
2010:This is the flag of the short-lived
1851:love languages, they are amazing! --
1654:The result of the move request was:
1522:were spoken. And so, those from the
459:This article is within the scope of
333:This article is within the scope of
93:This article is within the scope of
2225:Unknown-importance Finland articles
113:Knowledge:WikiProject Ethnic groups
49:It is of interest to the following
2215:WikiProject Ethnic groups articles
2205:Start-Class Ethnic groups articles
1058:Number of the Karelians in Finland
1019:Cite has empty unknown parameter:
980:Cite has empty unknown parameter:
380:project-independent quality rating
135:project-independent quality rating
116:Template:WikiProject Ethnic groups
14:
939:updated the article according to
2175:Knowledge level-5 vital articles
1998:Are you talking about this flag?
1965:The discussion above is closed.
446:
436:
409:
364:
320:
310:
289:
170:
86:
62:
29:
20:
2240:High-importance Russia articles
1612:are about Finnish Karelians. --
512:This article has been rated as
147:This article has been rated as
2185:C-Class level-5 vital articles
693:-article at Virtual Finland.
422:Demographics & ethnography
1:
2230:All WikiProject Finland pages
1622:18:19, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
1477:. And they also do not speak
857:Different groups of Karelians
597:http://www.karjalanliitto.fi/
534:This article is supported by
353:Knowledge:WikiProject Finland
347:and see a list of open tasks.
107:and see a list of open tasks.
2220:Start-Class Finland articles
1732:without knowing that point).
1628:Requested move 18 April 2022
1590:11:07, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
1570:11:09, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
1555:10:11, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
1537:10:06, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
1399:15:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
1384:15:38, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
1369:15:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
1351:should have a clear section
1331:15:19, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
1314:14:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
1295:14:41, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
1263:14:04, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
1211:10:48, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
1185:03:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
1139:09:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
1113:22:05, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
1089:20:17, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
1073:08:00, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
1039:20:30, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
890:21:02, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
872:08:37, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
492:Knowledge:WikiProject Russia
356:Template:WikiProject Finland
2260:WikiProject Russia articles
1774:ru:Карелы (субэтнос финнов)
1610:ru:Карелы (субэтнос финнов)
1268:both groups of Karelians.--
495:Template:WikiProject Russia
2276:
1960:04:14, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
1913:19:10, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
1899:13:09, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
1882:10:14, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
1860:01:24, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
1838:19:08, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
1824:18:26, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
1798:17:46, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
1749:16:37, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
1726:16:04, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
1710:Macedonians (ethnic group)
1687:12:33, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
1493:region in Finland and the
1340:
518:project's importance scale
394:project's importance scale
153:project's importance scale
2145:15:44, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
2131:13:55, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
2116:13:08, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
2101:12:52, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
2086:12:48, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
2071:12:42, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
2057:12:38, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
2035:11:47, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
1993:09:20, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
1455:23:06, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
1053:23:01, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
533:
511:
469:dedicated to coverage of
431:
391:
377:
305:
177:WikiProject Ethnic groups
159:
146:
132:
96:WikiProject Ethnic groups
81:
57:
1967:Please do not modify it.
1697:Karelians (ethnic group)
1642:Please do not modify it.
1503:Eastern Finnish dialects
1225:One Europe, Many Nations
1169:One Europe, Many Nations
944:One Europe, Many Nations
934:14:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
837:19:30, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
826:20:16, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
743:10:31, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
709:15:16, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
685:10:02 10 May 2004 (UTC)
668:08:51, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
648:09:20 10 May 2004 (UTC)
639:08:19, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
616:08:43 10 May 2004 (UTC)
2235:C-Class Russia articles
1158:completely mispresented
941:Minahan, James (2000).
850:7:40, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
599:(click link In English)
584:19:18 9 May 2004 (UTC)
565:16:38, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
482:, or contribute to the
2170:C-Class vital articles
2006:
1770:fi:Karjalaiset (kansa)
1598:fi:Karjalaiset (kansa)
530:
119:Ethnic groups articles
2005:
1193:, as the source does
917:) 11:48, 9 March 2006
780:Southeastern dialect:
529:
36:level-5 vital article
1714:Macedonians (Greeks)
1199:have misrepresented
336:WikiProject Finland
269:discuss these tasks
175:Here are some open
2007:
1144:I checked it out:
663:Finland either. --
531:
484:project discussion
462:WikiProject Russia
252:Start an article:
45:content assessment
2012:Republic of Uhtua
1677:
1674:non-admin closure
1507:Savonian dialects
1499:karelian language
1495:Northern Karelia
1483:Savonian dialects
1479:karelian language
1353:Finnish Karelians
919:
905:comment added by
704:. Kind regards! /
552:
551:
548:
547:
544:
543:
404:
403:
400:
399:
284:
283:
280:
279:
276:
275:
2267:
2106:separate issue.
1957:
1945:WP:1OTHERPRIMARY
1671:
1644:
1516:ingrian language
1481:but instead the
1437:
1434:
1028:
1022:
1017:
1015:
1007:
989:
983:
977:
972:has extra text (
971:
967:
965:
957:
918:
899:
500:
499:
496:
493:
490:
456:
451:
450:
449:
440:
433:
432:
427:
424:
413:
406:
368:
361:
360:
359:Finland articles
357:
354:
351:
330:
325:
324:
323:
314:
307:
306:
301:
293:
286:
198:on the talk page
195:
189:
174:
161:
121:
120:
117:
114:
111:
90:
83:
82:
77:
74:
66:
59:
42:
33:
32:
25:
24:
16:
2275:
2274:
2270:
2269:
2268:
2266:
2265:
2264:
2160:
2159:
2091:flag, did you?
1976:
1971:
1970:
1953:
1640:
1630:
1468:
1462:
1442:
1441:
1440:
1435:
1431:
1346:
1060:
1018:
1008:
1004:
991:
979:
968:
958:
954:
940:
900:
859:
557:
514:High-importance
498:Russia articles
497:
494:
491:
488:
487:
476:To participate:
452:
447:
445:
426:High‑importance
425:
419:
358:
355:
352:
349:
348:
326:
321:
319:
299:
245:Peruvian people
193:
187:
149:High-importance
118:
115:
112:
109:
108:
76:High‑importance
75:
72:
43:on Knowledge's
40:
30:
12:
11:
5:
2273:
2271:
2263:
2262:
2257:
2252:
2247:
2242:
2237:
2232:
2227:
2222:
2217:
2212:
2207:
2202:
2197:
2192:
2187:
2182:
2177:
2172:
2162:
2161:
2158:
2157:
2156:
2155:
2154:
2153:
2152:
2151:
2150:
2149:
2148:
2147:
2118:
2059:
2015:
2008:
1999:
1975:
1972:
1964:
1963:
1962:
1930:
1929:
1928:
1927:
1926:
1925:
1924:
1923:
1922:
1921:
1920:
1919:
1918:
1917:
1916:
1915:
1865:
1848:
1844:
1812:
1803:
1802:
1801:
1800:
1766:fi:Karjalaiset
1762:
1752:
1751:
1737:
1733:
1699:– On the page
1690:
1652:
1651:
1637:requested move
1631:
1629:
1626:
1625:
1624:
1606:fi:Karjalaiset
1573:
1572:
1520:votic language
1466:
1461:
1458:
1439:
1438:
1428:
1427:
1423:
1422:
1421:
1420:
1419:
1418:
1417:
1416:
1415:
1414:
1413:
1412:
1411:
1410:
1409:
1408:
1407:
1406:
1405:
1404:
1403:
1402:
1401:
1389:issue on WP.--
1386:
1349:Finnish people
1347:. The article
1343:Finnish people
1337:Finnish people
1302:Finnish people
1241:
1240:
1239:
1238:
1237:
1236:
1235:
1234:
1233:
1232:
1203:130.234.68.225
1081:212.146.44.208
1077:
1059:
1056:
1002:
952:
937:
936:
926:Jaakko Sivonen
907:217.30.179.130
895:
894:
893:
892:
882:84.251.161.164
858:
855:
854:
853:
852:
851:
840:
839:
796:
781:
773:
749:
748:
747:
746:
745:
732:
723:
719:
718:
632:
631:
611:
610:
601:
600:
590:
589:
579:
578:
573:
572:
556:
553:
550:
549:
546:
545:
542:
541:
532:
522:
521:
510:
504:
503:
501:
474:
473:on Knowledge.
458:
457:
441:
429:
428:
414:
402:
401:
398:
397:
390:
384:
383:
376:
370:
369:
362:
345:the discussion
332:
331:
328:Finland portal
315:
303:
302:
294:
282:
281:
278:
277:
274:
273:
265:edit this list
261:
260:
259:
258:
250:
249:
248:
241:
236:
231:
226:
221:
216:
208:
207:
206:
201:
166:
165:
157:
156:
145:
139:
138:
131:
125:
124:
122:
105:the discussion
91:
79:
78:
67:
55:
54:
48:
26:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
2272:
2261:
2258:
2256:
2253:
2251:
2248:
2246:
2243:
2241:
2238:
2236:
2233:
2231:
2228:
2226:
2223:
2221:
2218:
2216:
2213:
2211:
2208:
2206:
2203:
2201:
2198:
2196:
2193:
2191:
2188:
2186:
2183:
2181:
2178:
2176:
2173:
2171:
2168:
2167:
2165:
2146:
2142:
2138:
2134:
2133:
2132:
2128:
2124:
2119:
2117:
2113:
2109:
2104:
2103:
2102:
2098:
2094:
2089:
2088:
2087:
2083:
2079:
2074:
2073:
2072:
2068:
2064:
2060:
2058:
2054:
2050:
2046:
2042:
2038:
2037:
2036:
2032:
2028:
2024:
2020:
2016:
2013:
2009:
2004:
2000:
1997:
1996:
1995:
1994:
1990:
1986:
1982:
1973:
1968:
1961:
1958:
1956:
1950:
1946:
1943:
1939:
1935:
1932:
1931:
1914:
1910:
1906:
1902:
1901:
1900:
1897:
1893:
1889:
1885:
1884:
1883:
1879:
1875:
1870:
1866:
1863:
1862:
1861:
1858:
1854:
1849:
1845:
1841:
1840:
1839:
1835:
1831:
1827:
1826:
1825:
1822:
1818:
1813:
1809:
1808:
1807:
1806:
1805:
1804:
1799:
1795:
1791:
1787:
1783:
1779:
1775:
1771:
1767:
1763:
1760:
1756:
1755:
1754:
1753:
1750:
1747:
1743:
1738:
1734:
1730:
1729:
1728:
1727:
1723:
1719:
1715:
1711:
1707:
1702:
1698:
1694:
1689:
1688:
1684:
1680:
1675:
1669:
1665:
1661:
1657:
1650:
1648:
1643:
1638:
1633:
1632:
1627:
1623:
1619:
1615:
1611:
1607:
1603:
1599:
1594:
1593:
1592:
1591:
1587:
1583:
1578:
1571:
1567:
1563:
1559:
1558:
1557:
1556:
1552:
1548:
1544:
1539:
1538:
1534:
1530:
1525:
1524:western parts
1521:
1517:
1514:, where also
1513:
1508:
1504:
1500:
1496:
1492:
1491:South Karelia
1488:
1484:
1480:
1476:
1472:
1465:
1459:
1457:
1456:
1452:
1448:
1433:
1430:
1426:
1400:
1396:
1392:
1387:
1385:
1381:
1377:
1372:
1371:
1370:
1366:
1362:
1358:
1354:
1350:
1344:
1338:
1334:
1333:
1332:
1328:
1324:
1323:195.237.90.72
1319:
1318:
1317:
1316:
1315:
1311:
1307:
1303:
1298:
1297:
1296:
1292:
1288:
1287:195.237.90.72
1283:
1278:
1275:
1271:
1270:195.237.90.72
1266:
1265:
1264:
1260:
1256:
1251:
1250:
1249:
1248:
1247:
1246:
1245:
1244:
1243:
1242:
1230:
1226:
1222:
1218:
1214:
1213:
1212:
1208:
1204:
1200:
1196:
1192:
1188:
1187:
1186:
1182:
1178:
1174:
1170:
1166:
1163:
1159:
1155:
1151:
1150:
1147:
1143:
1140:
1136:
1132:
1131:130.234.5.136
1128:
1124:
1120:
1116:
1115:
1114:
1110:
1106:
1102:
1098:
1093:
1092:
1091:
1090:
1086:
1082:
1075:
1074:
1070:
1066:
1057:
1055:
1054:
1050:
1046:
1041:
1040:
1036:
1032:
1026:
1013:
1005:
1003:9789027247520
1000:
996:
995:
987:
975:
963:
955:
953:9780313309847
950:
946:
945:
935:
931:
927:
922:
921:
920:
916:
912:
908:
904:
891:
887:
883:
878:
877:
876:
875:
874:
873:
869:
865:
856:
849:
844:
843:
842:
841:
838:
835:
830:
829:
828:
827:
824:
821:
816:
813:
812:
808:
805:
803:
799:
794:
793:
788:
787:
783:
779:
775:
770:
769:
764:
761:
758:
755:
752:
744:
741:
737:
733:
730:
729:
727:
724:
721:
720:
716:
713:
712:
711:
710:
707:
703:
698:
694:
692:
691:Many Karelias
686:
684:
678:
674:
670:
669:
666:
662:
657:
656:
649:
647:
641:
640:
637:
630:
626:
625:
624:
621:
617:
615:
609:
606:
605:
604:
598:
595:
594:
593:
587:
586:
585:
583:
575:
574:
569:
568:
567:
566:
563:
554:
539:
538:
528:
524:
523:
519:
515:
509:
506:
505:
502:
485:
481:
477:
472:
468:
464:
463:
455:
454:Russia portal
444:
442:
439:
435:
434:
430:
423:
418:
415:
412:
408:
395:
389:
386:
385:
381:
375:
372:
371:
367:
363:
346:
342:
338:
337:
329:
318:
316:
313:
309:
308:
304:
298:
295:
292:
288:
272:
270:
266:
263:Feel free to
257:
254:
253:
251:
247:
246:
242:
240:
237:
235:
232:
230:
227:
225:
222:
220:
217:
215:
212:
211:
209:
205:
202:
199:
192:
191:Ethnic groups
185:
184:
182:
181:
180:
178:
173:
168:
167:
163:
162:
158:
154:
150:
144:
141:
140:
136:
130:
127:
126:
123:
110:Ethnic groups
106:
102:
101:ethnic groups
98:
97:
92:
89:
85:
84:
80:
71:
70:Ethnic groups
68:
65:
61:
56:
52:
46:
38:
37:
27:
23:
18:
17:
1977:
1966:
1954:
1949:WP:PRECISION
1941:
1933:
1691:
1668:WP:PRECISION
1655:
1653:
1641:
1634:
1576:
1574:
1542:
1540:
1523:
1469:
1463:
1447:AkuraIchiban
1443:
1432:
1424:
1352:
1281:
1228:
1224:
1198:
1194:
1190:
1168:
1164:
1161:
1157:
1145:
1141:
1126:
1122:
1118:
1076:
1061:
1045:AkuraIchiban
1042:
993:
943:
938:
896:
860:
817:
814:
809:
806:
801:
795:
790:In English:
789:
784:
776:
771:
765:
762:
759:
756:
753:
750:
714:
699:
697:concluded.
695:
690:
687:
679:
675:
671:
665:Johan Magnus
660:
654:
653:
650:
642:
636:Johan Magnus
633:
627:
622:
618:
612:
602:
591:
580:
562:62.143.8.246
558:
535:
513:
480:project page
475:
460:
334:
262:
243:
197:
183:Meta-tasks:
169:
148:
94:
51:WikiProjects
34:
2019:Circassians
1938:WP:ONEOTHER
1892:Metalpotato
1853:Metalpotato
1817:Metalpotato
1742:Metalpotato
1664:WP:ONEOTHER
1647:move review
1152:Please see
1103:. thanks!--
1021:|coauthors=
982:|coauthors=
901:—Preceding
467:WikiProject
300:Start‑class
73:Start‑class
2164:Categories
1782:Tavastians
1425:References
1374:English.--
834:Jniemenmaa
644:very POV.
186:Place the
1955:AjaxSmack
1811:Finland).
1786:Savonians
1778:ru:Карелы
1693:Karelians
1660:AjaxSmack
1656:Not moved
1602:ru:Карелы
1475:Savonians
1357:Karelians
1065:Karjala88
1012:cite book
962:cite book
864:Karjala88
652:advance,
196:template
39:is rated
1869:Karelian
1582:Urjanhai
1562:Urjanhai
1547:Urjanhai
1529:Urjanhai
1221:WP:STYLE
915:contribs
903:unsigned
848:Kahkonen
823:Kahkonen
726:Kahkonen
683:Kahkonen
661:official
646:Kahkonen
614:Kahkonen
582:Kahkonen
577:Finnish.
555:Language
1981:Karelia
1905:Vilutar
1888:indians
1874:Vilutar
1830:Vilutar
1790:Vilutar
1718:Vilutar
1614:Vilutar
1487:Finnish
1173:WP:SEMI
1154:WP:RSUE
970:|pages=
516:on the
350:Finland
341:Finland
297:Finland
179:tasks:
151:on the
41:C-class
2023:Evenks
1934:Oppose
1512:Ingria
1460:Errors
1391:Termer
1376:Termer
1361:Termer
1306:Termer
1255:Termer
1217:WP:NPA
1177:Termer
1105:Termer
1101:WP:RPP
1031:Termer
740:Tuomas
706:Tuomas
629:Union.
489:Russia
471:Russia
417:Russia
47:scale.
2137:Welso
2123:Modun
2108:Modun
2093:Welso
2078:Modun
2063:Welso
2049:Welso
2027:Modun
1985:Welso
1951:. —
1759:Finns
1679:FOARP
1097:WP:RS
736:Finns
374:Start
129:Start
28:This
2141:talk
2127:talk
2112:talk
2097:talk
2082:talk
2067:talk
2053:talk
2031:talk
1989:talk
1983:) .
1936:per
1909:talk
1890:. --
1878:talk
1834:talk
1794:talk
1722:talk
1712:and
1683:talk
1618:talk
1608:and
1600:and
1586:talk
1566:talk
1551:talk
1533:talk
1518:and
1451:talk
1395:talk
1380:talk
1365:talk
1327:talk
1310:talk
1291:talk
1282:Edit
1274:talk
1259:talk
1207:talk
1181:talk
1142:Edit
1135:talk
1109:talk
1085:talk
1069:talk
1049:talk
1035:talk
1025:help
999:ISBN
990:and
986:help
974:help
949:ISBN
930:talk
911:talk
886:talk
868:talk
508:High
465:, a
239:Iyer
143:High
2021:or
1543:not
1485:of
1304:.--
1195:not
1129:.--
1123:not
738:. /
655:but
388:???
267:or
2166::
2143:)
2129:)
2114:)
2099:)
2084:)
2069:)
2055:)
2033:)
2025:.
1991:)
1942:nb
1911:)
1894:-
1880:)
1855:-
1836:)
1819:-
1796:)
1784:,
1776:,
1772:,
1768:,
1744:-
1724:)
1695:→
1685:)
1639:.
1620:)
1588:)
1577:is
1568:)
1553:)
1535:)
1453:)
1397:)
1382:)
1367:)
1329:)
1312:)
1293:)
1261:)
1209:)
1183:)
1137:)
1111:)
1087:)
1071:)
1051:)
1037:)
1016::
1014:}}
1010:{{
978:;
966::
964:}}
960:{{
932:)
913:•
888:)
870:)
634:--
420::
271:.
194:}}
188:{{
2139:(
2125:(
2110:(
2095:(
2080:(
2065:(
2051:(
2029:(
1987:(
1979:(
1907:(
1896:✉
1876:(
1857:✉
1832:(
1821:✉
1792:(
1746:✉
1720:(
1681:(
1676:)
1672:(
1616:(
1584:(
1564:(
1549:(
1531:(
1449:(
1393:(
1378:(
1363:(
1345:.
1325:(
1308:(
1289:(
1272:(
1257:(
1205:(
1179:(
1133:(
1107:(
1083:(
1067:(
1047:(
1033:(
1027:)
1023:(
1006:.
988:)
984:(
976:)
956:.
928:(
909:(
884:(
866:(
846:/
540:.
520:.
486:.
396:.
155:.
53::
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
