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Incidentally I have searched for any photos of the Thuy Bo
Memorial but am unable to find any. I also gave names rather than numbers to refs as per policy as its easier to follow when editing. As noted above, I do not believe that there are sufficient WP:RS that a massacre occurred. Government-controlled interviews in Vietnam 14 years after the event and a monument are not WP:RS. I find it very strange that an IP with minimal edit history appears out of nowhere and starts reverting all my edits (without considering each change on its merits) and arguing these issues.
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personal world view by promoting one, while rubbishing the other. But the extracts from the interviews (which most participants at WP:RS seem to agree to be reliable enough) seem to be used in a balanced way without repetition. So I don't see any major issues with the recent re-wording. it wuld help if the IP/original author could sugest what they think needs adding back.
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proxy-war there against
Vietnam. Interviews with Vietnamese civilians in that period (and even now) are inherently suspect due to Vietnamese Government control of the interview process and narrative which is reflected in numerous sources and the total lack of free media in Vietnam. For example see this
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That just doesn't withstand any serious scrutiny. The
Marines investigated and found that the deaths were collateral to the battle on 31 January, i.e. no massacre. 10 years later the Vietnamese build a monument and in 1981 allow some Government controlled interviews and we are supposed to accept that
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You are the one doing the kicking and screaming. The Karnow interviews are being discussed at WP:RSN. No I am not saying "Everything that another country or government does is to be considered unreliable" I am saying that anything the
Vietnamese Government and by extension its media says in relation
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I don't quite think you understand. a monument isn't the sole claim of this, this is documented to have allegedly occurred. its not up to you to deny that it may have occurred, you aren't the judiciary on this as much as you want to believe you are. i get that you have nothing going on in your life
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I thought it would be noteworthy to mention claims that it was actually South
Koreans involved in the incident described by the villages and that it was totally different from the incident described by the Marines. Its even noted in Turse's book and by Heonik Kwon. The claims are summarized in the
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Bear in kind government controlled accounts by the US Marine Corps (part of the US armed state apparatus) will be as one-sided as "Government controlled interviews in
Vietnam". An interview of a villager by a trained journalist is as valid as an interview with a soldier. Mztourist gives away their
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I'm not talking about how serious the Marine investigation was. My original point here is that there was no contemporaneous media reporting of this supposed massacre at the time and I would argue, no WP:RS since then. If this really occurred I would expect there to be media articles, books etc but
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Listen you can kick and scream all you want, but you are claiming that a) a documentary by stanley karnow is not WP:RS, and b) Everything that another country or government does is to be considered unreliable. The fact that it is referenced in secondary sources doesn't rule out the fact that its a
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discussed all these issues above if you bothered to read there. If you have specific comments/rebuttals to make please present them, rather than just attacking my supposed bias and edit-warring. If you refuse to discuss here and just keep reverting my edits you are not following policy and I will
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I have provided a breakdown of my changes above already. If you disagree then you need to specifically detail what you disagree with and why and we then attempt to reach a consensus. You can't just say you disagree with everything without providing and justification. You are the only User who has
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story of another purported massacre where the
Associated Press states: "The AP was unable to independently confirm their claims" and "An additional 653 civilians were allegedly killed the same year by South Korean troops in neighboring Quang Ngai and Phu Yen provinces, according to provincial and
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Its 3 sentences: "Early in 1967 two marine companies advance on Thuy Bo expecting only token resistance. The engagement lasted for three days, however, resulting in heavy casualties for the
Americans. Upon withdrawal of the VC, the marines entered the village and, by their account, began shooting
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My other changes are to maintain NPOV (so the massacre was "purportedly" conducted by US Marines given the conflicting views that the civilians were collateral casualties of the battle) and remove repeated or irrelevant detail, such as a description and photo of the unrelated martyrs cemetery.
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The first reports and apparently the only sources for the supposed massacre are a series of TV interviews conducted in 1981, 14 years after the supposed massacre and at a time when US-Vietnamese relations were very bad following the
Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia and with the US supporting a
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It was reported at the time, by Tucker, and it was reported to US authorities but dismissed as per Tucker and that military history book. It was reported internally, and physically commemorated, in 1977 before any interview. This should be sufficient to establish that this isn't a conspiracy
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These re-wordings seem very POV and the sources provided are already reliable given they are books and not discussed on proper boards to justify removing them. you are also deleting way more than you are justifying and there isn't a proper consensus on removing images here.
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I don't agree that the USMC history is "as one-sided" as
Vietnam, the US is a democracy with a free media, Vietnam is not and I have previously and repeatedly given examples of Vietnamese propaganda regarding the Vietnam War, examples here if you take the time to read them:
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Where does it say that it was reported and dismissed? The Marines investigated it, but if there really was a massacre it would have been uncovered by journalists and there would be more WP:RS, but there just isn't so it probably didn't occur as the interviews recount it.
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local officials interviewed by the AP on a trip the government took two months to approve. As is routine with foreign reporters, several government escorts accompanied the AP staff. The AP was unable to search for documents that would back up the officials' allegations"
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The USMC history states that on 1-2 February 18 wounded villagers and the bodies of 22 dead were brought to the Marine command post and that the Marines themselves investigated and found they had all been injured or killed in the battle, so they concluded there was no
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You are the one who seems to have nothing to do with your life putting up these fallacious arguments. I have addressed the lack of WP:RS already, if you want to discuss specific issues with my changes go ahead, but insulting me isn't advancing your case at all.
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Why is there no contemporaneous reporting of this event? There were hundreds of reporters in South Vietnam by 1967 and there was a press center in Danang, but none of them heard anything? Even after My Lai no-one talked about this? It didn't come up in the
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1281:) 11:37, 3 July 2018 (UTC) Not sure when or how "war crime" was added to the opening sentence. To be a war crime, wouldn't it require some sort of criminal investigation or conviction by a court? I've changed it back to "reportedly conducted".
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the USMC history states that there was a battle with VC (not NVA/PAVN) in the village on 31 January which led to the village being bombed and hit by artillery fire. On 1 February the Marines entered the village but the VC had withdrawn
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to the Vietnam War is unreliable. What are the secondary sources that say there was a massacre? There's Karnow's interview, a description of the Thuy Bo Memorial in Kwon and whatever Turse says, which I have shown below is unreliable.
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My recent edits summarized the official US Marine Corps account of what happened at Thuy Bo, without this detail the previous version gave the misleading impression that the Marines came rampaging into this village killing civilians:
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Yes based on the limited reliable sources of this event I think the civilians were killed in the fighting not massacred, but there is no bias in my editing, as I have presented the available facts from a neutral point of view. I
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Or do you mean sources you don't like? Turse appears to be an investigative journalist and the book (with copious footnotes) is published by a major publisher. I can't even see the Vietnamese Government being used as a source.
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This page is poorly written and referenced, terribly biased and lacks WP:RS of the purported massacre, relying largely on implication, Nick Turse whose methods have been shown to be questionable and Heonik Kwan's dubious
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I don't see bias. The article appears to be written in a matter-of-fact way, reporting what was said rather than stating anything was fact. It even opens with the word 'reported' in the first sentence.
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and therefore is not relevant to the page. "Reported" is changed to "purported" because there is real doubt as to whether or not there was a massacre given the lack of WP:RS as noted above.
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and spend your time having to try to control the article but its unfair to both create drastic changes while at the same time denying the "truth" of other sources opposed to your own.
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The coordinates are wrong. Telfer states that Thuy Bo was "located immediately west of the north-south railroad". The railroad is approximately 5-6km east of the coordinates given.
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The bias is the lack of any detail regarding the purported massacre. There lots of background and innuendo but no hard facts. Vietnamese Government sources and Turse are not WP:RS.
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The USMC history states Thuy Bo was located 15km southwest of Danang, immediately west of the railroad and so the coordinates given are wrong as they are 5-6km west of the railroad
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you also don't seem to think the event exists and are already editing with a clear bias. you should discuss this before making changes to the entire article as you did.
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Stanley Karnow, Spencer Tucker and others are reliable sources. I suppose you assume "Official Marine History" by Gary Telfer on the war is the only reliable source?
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I did read it. The author makes very valid points, but this isn't a refutation, at all. It looks at a few case examples, and ascribes issues with motive and so-on.
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Specifically in relation to the image deletion. As noted above, that is an image of a war cemetery that is stated to be adjacent to the Thuy Bo Memorial, it is
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Tucker's book was published in 2011! Not 1967! The Vietnamese erecting a monument is not WP:RS, you need to read WP:RS and understand what is required!
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I would like to have some clear resolution of the RSN and suitable changes made to reflect that before the clean up template is removed. regards
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It was reported, to US authorities, who had decided it was a corollary of fighting. Regardless, Not every incident or historical report
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Completely wrong. It was a USMC operation, not a South Korean one as shown by the existing sourcing which includes Turse and Kwon.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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This is not only a different topic, it is irrelevant. Stanley Karnow reported the event according to the article, in the 1980s.
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All discussed above already, if you have comments to make, make them here on the Talk page, until then stop edit warring this.
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or reported. they aren't the sole authority or historical account on this matter, given they have their own motivations to
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I have opened an RSN regarding the reliability of the video interviews which are relied on for this page here:
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Both editors used the word unvert today which is suspicious since this is not a word I have ever seen before.
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Spencer Tucker provides minimal detail of this supposed massacre - 3 sentences with nothing about casualties.
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Well if you think that erecting a monument is WP:RS then I don't know what you think would be a refutation.
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One source or document hardly constitutes a refutation. I don't think you understand the nature of academia.
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Is there a reason for deleting images? Or making changes to the word purported from the original reported?
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you will see the critiques of his work and particularly this analysis of his flawed investigation methods:
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there isn't, it isn't mentioned in the Winter Soldier Investigation or Vietnam War Crimes Working Group.
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The USMC says the battle took place over 2 days - 31 January to 1 February, not 3 days as Tucker states
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Isn't it time to remove the clean up templates now the article has been re-written/reworded?
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an event fro occurring. you'd understand that if you read more than one or two books.
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proves a massacre took place? WP is supposed to have higher standards than that.
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claims of a massacre and interviews in Vietnam in 1981 are inherently suspect.
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conspiracy theory or hoax as much as someone like yourself believes it is.
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I'd rather the image be discussed before making such a bold edit.
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There is a whole paragraph, that runs 6 sentences long.
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and can be established post-fact. This is just silly.
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Look at the source again. There's substantive detail
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1315:Recent edits
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819:A bicyclette
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172:AfC articles
158:project page
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107:WikiProjects
51:
48:Did you know
47:
37:Did you know
35:
27:
26:A fact from
642:Structure:
576:Start-class
517:Start‑class
42:check views
1708:Categories
1325:overnight.
1049:Nick Turse
193:this draft
1691:Mztourist
1634:Mztourist
1605:Mztourist
1574:Mztourist
1525:Mztourist
1507:Mztourist
1469:Mztourist
1391:Mztourist
1342:Mztourist
1302:Mztourist
1243:Mztourist
1235:discredit
1217:Mztourist
1184:Mztourist
1162:Mztourist
1131:Mztourist
1101:Mztourist
1073:Mztourist
1023:Mztourist
993:Mztourist
964:Mztourist
923:Mztourist
894:Mztourist
848:Mztourist
804:Mztourist
802:research.
32:Main Page
1335:massacre
603:criteria
513:Cold War
208:contribs
1648:MPS1992
977:theory.
447:on the
309:on the
282:Vietnam
231:Vietnam
198:Bkissin
97:C-class
34:in the
413:Alerts
103:scale.
1671:link
1620:Sionk
1407:Sionk
1283:Sionk
863:Sionk
834:Sionk
570:Start
497:Asian
1695:talk
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1569:have
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956:not
439:Low
301:Low
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