Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 55

2825:. The issue of complexity and retention was probably studied during development of VE since it was supposed to make Knowledge more accessible to non-technical users, this was a major push, and I expect they did so because of feedback. I wouldn't take it personally that CS1|2 is somehow at fault, it's better than any alternative, but it's part of the larger picture of increasing complexity across Wikimedia. This problem is not even unique to Wikimedia, Windows and Apple were supposed to hide OS complexity so that more people could use computers. I am a unix command-line person, but also recognize most people are not that vested. -- 5067:

first place to see url and it does not mean the url itself, rather a sideways reference to the url. It took the conversation with you for me to see that it is written above the |url-access to have one of those two words follow the brand new parameter (new to me, anyway). When there are too many choices, for me, it would be helpful to show the exact order in the Deprecated box, what to use now, that is, url-access=subscription. This is a reversal of the order so long used, and I had no idea this topic was under discussion until error messages popped up in articles. Those are all my ideas. --

2490:, etc., and label them pointless, confusing, and so on (I ran into that again just yesterday as part of the perennially recycling argument about italicization of work names when the source is electronic; the forcefulness of the complaints about the different and longer-named parameter aliases (e.g. "|work= or one of its pointless aliases (website, newspaper, etc)" – from someone who's actually on the opposite side from me on the matter actually under discussion over there) was what inspired me to look into normalizing toward 2729:. The periodicals that I read or refer to in everyday conversation are journals, magazines, newspapers; these are the common English terms for those things. I don't think that I've ever referred to a magazine or newspaper as a work except here in the context of these templates. When I visit some website, I'm visiting a website, not a work. Yeah, all of these things are 'works' but that is a jargon-ish term that I think is useful as a fall-back in certain cases (media other than newspapers in 1097:

information travelling around the globe in seconds. Just like short passwords can be cracked in fractions of a second, abbreviated names are just no longer cutting it when it comes to reliably identifying an author. Ambiguity hinders interested readers when they try to find out more about an author and/or the topic. It is nice to emulate external style guides, but we are Knowledge and moving forward we should not be shy to define our own rules if they serve our purposes better. --

4461: 2577:– but then I just don't pay much attention to that kind of stuff. I had thought that if the searches returned something useful that would be a simple way to gauge a trend if one exists by taking an initial sample now and over the next some-number of months take additional samples. This same can be accomplished by creating properties cats (relatively easy to do I think), or by hunting through database dumps (more difficult according to Editor 31: 335:

giving more information about the composer or performer in order to guide the reader to notes for the right recording. I suppose the year and the label are potential disambiguators, but it is a lot easier on the reader to indicate that the recording was of a Beethoven concerto performed by the London Philharmonic. I don't know the right answer, but one primary purpose of citations is to help the reader find the original source. –

744:(who should probably have an article, by the way). Putting the longer author name into the template parameters and hiding it because reasons is at least better than not having it there at all. And the "efficiency" of typing fewer characters is bogus: you should be getting the bib data from a database of some sort, not typing it all again by hand, or else you're going to introduce lots of mistakes. — 3552: 1323: 3659: 647:(and name author format parameter as desired) to allow reusers to pick whatever citation method they prefer, and having full names in the metadata/wikitext is the only way to do so. The "there's too many in the wikitext" was never a reasonable argument for me, and especially shouldn't be now given LDR (which can see mixed use in rarer cases where there are e.g. 50 authors). -- 5024:

subscription =yes would help. showing that the lock icon will appear in the ref on the page people read would be very helpful. My reaction was to take things away until the error message went away. I am most familiar with newspapers with limits, and now the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, and just a few others encountered as I found them. --

826:, may not find what you are looking for either, but at least the list of hits that one must wade through is much shorter. The issue with efficiency is not the storage of characters, but rather trying to edit raw wiki text which is imbedded with bloated citation templates that make it more difficult to find the text you are trying to edit. 1229:, without a consensus discussion first. (CITEVAR is often misinterpreted as a "once a style it set, it cannot be changed rule", and is nothing of the sort; worse, it's even misconstrued as a "whoever set the style in the first major edit has more say in how the article should develop, moving forward" rule, which is just flatly against 781:, the author format is at least consistent. Finally the efficiency has nothing to do with the number of characters typed. Of course, one would download the sources from a database like PubMed using ref tool bar, citoid, or similar tool. The efficiency has to do with the number of characters stored in the raw wiki text. 3448:(again) to make them separate parameters on purpose, I would oppose (not just because it's rehash, but on the merits of the idea, or rather the lack of them). It's not actually clear to me how this result was possible, because I simply changed the things the TemplateData said should be treated as aliases (including 4215:? What I mean is, since the former are deprecated, it means that, for example, a journal cited without a URL but with a DOI parameter can no longer include any indication (that I'm aware of) that says the source requires a subscription. JSTOR, for example, requires a subscription, but without the URL included, 1253:

did not have that style in its first non-stub version; in the other I conceded because that article did originate with Vanc. style, and the non-consistent cites in the page were recent additions.) So, the idea that if you change Vanc. cites to typical WP ones all Hell is going to break loose is patently false.

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these two parameters so that editors who care about an article can review their sources and perhaps replace restricted sources with something better that doesn't lurk behind a paywall. That is better than any old someone doing a drive-by edit with awb or some other script (and yeah, that will happen).

5023:

Thank you! I can remember that, a parameter in place of subscription, but includes url, and use it in another article that has a ref to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. I have never put anything before url, so xxx-url is wholly new to me. I think simple examples for the common places with

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template that would wrap an appropriate cs1|2 template to handle all of the constant stuff like the website name etc and give the citations some form of consistency. That won't fix the big problem of citation titles that don't match the database entries but it would be a step in the right direction.

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bias that most of the templates' documentation encourages the use of the variant, long-winded parameter aliases. And we'd need some way to exclude results from tools hard-coded to use particular parameter names. However, the fact that the results you were able to get out of the searches, before the

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Anyway, yeah, I would expect searches like the ones you did to time out, because there are millions of instances. I don't think such stats would be useful even if they could be gathered, because of legacy use and other skew. They'd only be informative if they could be gathered completely and compared

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Anyway, no one is forced to use these templates, and a CITEVAR "universal permissiveness" about Vanc. and all other cite styles doesn't translate to required work on the WP:CS1 end; any doctor or lab researcher can insert Vanc.-style cites all they want, manually. We shouldn't be providing tools that

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Yes, and sorry; my comment could have been indented better. My comment was regarding Boghog's "efficiency" argument. To which he responds that his point is not efficiency in typing, but clutter in the wikitext. And there I will agree that full citations in the text obscure the text. But the answer to

1026:

Repeating what I wrote above, the reason is not to reduce typing. The reason is to reduce the size of bloated citation templates in the raw wiki text that make it more difficult to find text you are trying to edit. We will have to agree to disagree on the necessity of storing full first names. Time

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for "Artist, producers, etc.", without qualification and clarification as is found in other documentation about this parameter (i.e. suggesting, sensibly, that this parameter is not used in lieu of author parameters, but is an additional parameter for, well, others). This actually brings up something

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is the media notes. Did Gaga and Cooper contribute to the media notes in a substantive way? If they did, then they should be listed as authors. If not, and the media notes are the work of an anonymous PR person at Interscope Records, then Gaga and Cooper should be omitted from the citation. If we

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template to that page using the wikisource editor and preview that new page, no error. That suggests to me that the problem isn't with this module suite but rather it is with ve, with the preview mechanism, or with Scribunto. Just because this module reveals the problem does not make it the source

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Replacement of words, which as most of the users of Knowledge can read English, are useful to most users with one of a series of tiny almost identical icons of which the meaning isn't at all clear is a terrible idea, which makes the reference harder to read and understand. And defacing articles with

2845:

Sure, learning one new thing instead of five new things might be easier. But since I already know the five things, learning an un-intuitive new thing that overrides the five intuitive things is to me adding complexity. I don't imagine that new editors sit down and read the cs1|2 template docs. If

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consensus is, whether people have had fighty RfCs about it or not. I'm actually pretty good at this; given the large amount of that work I do, quite boldly, I would have been topic-banned from such activities, or just indeffed, long ago if I were technically incompetent at it, were just implementing

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is mis-documented at one page as just being for "authors, producers, etc." without any qualification, while another more accurately describes this as an adjunct to other biographical parameters, not a replacement for them, but for additional parties that don't fit into an author, editor, translator,

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I would never find that example when I am hunting down how to fix an error message. Perhaps someone could go into the template that makes the table about the Deprecated, and arrange it so that it is clear that the word registration or subscription FOLLOWS the new parameters? It was confusing in the

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it will stop matching on the first "}", and there are cite templates with empty arguments that were copy-pasted in and not a good reflection of usage, and Elasticsearch considers the search too expensive. It would require parsing the dump taking into count these factors. I can do this, but it would

3447:

Exactly! I'm having a "Whaaat?" reaction myself, because there wasn't a reason that I was aware of to expect such a result, and I've never encountered one before, even after years as a TemplateEditor doing fairly complicated work (though I don't do much on the Module/LUA side). If someone proposed

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Sounds like when I worked in the IT dept of a large company about 20 years ago, and they brought in a bunch of kids straight out of University to write the Next Big Project. They were all talking about methods, actors and broadcasting to such an extent I wondered if they all came from drama school,

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every time I have some time to spare and I encounter an article with Vanc. cites that are not used consistently; in about 5 years of this, I've been reverted a grand total of twice. (I got the change to stick in one of those cases by pointing out that article wasn't consistently using the style and

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I'm honestly skeptical of the underlying rationale, though. It simply cannot be true that medical academics and other professions will quit Knowledge in a huff if we do not bend over backwards to make it easy to use a citation style some of them prefer (actually, mostly Americans, and in particular

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database. Knowledge is not a reliable source for citation data as it frequently contains errors. It is much more reliable to down load citation data from PubMed and there are many convenient tools for doing so. Why is it necessary to store full first names in Knowledge when it can easily (and more

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does still require a subscription for much access to its articles; I know it was counting articles for me in 2018, and I had exceeded the count so access was blocked, and thus I decided in early 2019 to get a subscription. Can someone please expand the table at Deprecated to say when those various

2494:. I picked a single template to do this with as a test run, and it's interesting that no one objected about the substance/intent of the change, only the unexpected effect it had on one tool, from the TemplateData part of that edit. A major source of misuse of parameters (especially work titles in 1767:

I am more than willing to assist when necessary in the improvement of the cs1|2 documentation but I should not be the author because I am too close to the code. There is a ton of documentation in the code, and every new thing that I have added to the module suite since I started working on it has

795:

I'm not certain that the librarian Ruth S Smith is the same as the heavily-cited academic author Ruth S Smith, but that's not important. If I search Knowledge for "Smith Ruth" or "Ruth S. Smith" or "Ruth Smith" I will probably find all of the instances that are the ones I'm looking for, and only a

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and download the data from PubMed using one of the many tools available tools for this purpose. If we ever switch to a system where citations are retrieved from Wikidata, and if a particular citation is also stored in a reliable database such as PubMed, the data will be harvested from PubMed, not

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Fewer characters is more efficient. Furthermore, if you are not going to display full first names, why store them? The implication is that you might want to reuse the citations elsewhere and display full first names. However Knowledge is not a reliable source for citation data. Better to copy the

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So I misread that as a missing title, but actually getContent() is getting the full wikitext content of the page. I imagine this is expected behaviour in the Lua module that pages that don't exist, or haven't been previewed yet, return 'nil' for getContent. As VE is rendering these previews async

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There really is no pre-deprecation step in our process of abandoning a parameter. After the decision is taken to abandon a parameter in favor of something better or more useful, the first step is deprecation. The parameter still works. For me, it is preferable that we show an error message for

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is a problem, whether it's happening in P&G pages or template documentation; instructions are instructions, and the more we have and the more variant they are, the harder it is to become an editor and remain one who knows how things work and should work. For many years we've been increasingly

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Trappist, that argument at best misses the point. Your work is very much appreciated, you've helped me personally a lot, but when editors complain that the documentation is in adequate, it's because they tried to do something that didn't work because it's not written. The editor changing the code

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In the time that I have been participating in this project, there have been many and many a complaint about the quality of the cs1|2 documentation. When I ask those complainers if they know how to make the documentation better to please do so, almost invariably, I am met with silence. We need a

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It does seem strange to me, however, not to cite the artist for media notes, primarily as a way of helping the reader find the right source. For example, if I were citing the liner notes for a CD or LP whose formal title was "Symphony Number 3" or "Violin Concerto No. 1", I would want some way of

1759:

I get your point, but you know that the absolute worst of all possible documentation is that which was written by the developer. Why? Because the developer knows what it does so writes incomplete, insufficiently detailed, overly detailed in the wrong areas, ... This is why there are technical

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In part, in theory. I have the will, but my WP time is more constrained than it once was, and the thread just above this indicates that there are some gaps in my relevant knowledge. The purpose of my opening this thread wasn't to complain, but to outline the nature of the problem and see about

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is another website that provides access to a variety of separate databases, some of which it curates or shares curation, others it hosts, and some it mirrors. A good citation should give both the source of the material and where it was accessed. A database parameter might be useful for use with

2761:

Just a question of complexity having to remember different argument names for use in different citation templates - once you remember "work" it should universally work. It's easier to remember one argument name, work is intuitive. Not everyone will agree with that there are arguments both ways.

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My remark was meant more generally, also regarding the habit of some to abbreviate journal names etc. Only providing an abbreviated first name may be allowed by the style guide but it is nevertheless backwards-oriented in an electronic encyclopedia on a planet with close to 8 billion humans and

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parameters need to be used? It is not obvious to me. I do not want to test each one in succession to learn that. Now the reference uses url= for the link to the image of the old article and generates no error messages as to format. Should I be adding a template with subscription required, from

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How first names (or any part of the names) are displayed is one thing (and I can accept that being editor optionable); storing the author metadata is different. I'm with Izno on this: full names, properly parsed ("last" name on which collation is done, and the rest as "first" name), should be

4829:{{cite news |title=Kramer Persists in Denying Guilt |url=http://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1945/10/10/issue.html |subscription=yes |accessdate=19 September 2015 |work=The New York Times |issue=Vol. XCV, No. 32,036 |publisher=The New York Times Company |date=10 October 1945 |page=8}} 2782:

Using the name of a thing as it is named in common, every day, English language adds unacceptable complexity? I have a hard time wrapping my poor little brain around that. Complexity for whom? I have been trained throughout my lifetime to think of a magazine as a magazine, a newspaper as a

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Unfortunately, TemplateData is bad idea. It attempts to combine the function of tool control (ve primarily, though, no doubt, other lesser lights) with the function of template documentation. I don't know how well TemplateData performs as tool control, but it sucks when it comes to template

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citation format (a widely used style in biomedical journals) there is no truncation of information. The citation is complete. There is no need to add the full first name of the authors. In fact, doing so to an article where the Vancouver style authors has already been established would be a

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I understand your "contrarian me" reaction, but I'm not making an "everyone agrees" point. On WP it's never true that everyone agrees on anything! Ha ha. Rather, I'm observing a trend and trusting that others have been observant enough to pick it up as well. I've been okay for years with the

800:??? Are you out of your mind, or merely innumerate? The number of characters we're spending on this discussion alone probably outranks all the bytes you've supposedly saved in all of the articles you've written. And a single image file would be many times that. Maybe you need to go read 3390:

Because there are two different databases, I think that including the 'Paleobiology Database' name in Fossilworks citations serves only to confuse because a database that isn't the fossilworks 'Paleobiology Database' exists under the name of 'Paleobiology Database'. Which one do you

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and the periodical cs1 templates, then, were I again a novice, I would have to look that up to see how to use that parameter. If I were a newby and citing a journal or a website, I suspect that I'd catch-on more quickly with parameter names that reflect the thing that I'm actually

702:" The "efficiency" of typing a few less characters is fairly insignificant in the broader context, and questionable in view of the loss of information. And wikitext clutter can be greatly reduced by not putting full citations into the text. (LDR is not the only alternative.) ♦ 3163:". Most of the time we read online versions of a journal, but we still give the details of the printed volume. What I am looking for is the best way the give both the actual work (the paleobiology database) and where I read it (fossilworks). One method often used is to set 2974:

I haven't tried the hybrid editor so I don't know what editors are offered there. I suspect that these offered-subsets of the cs1|2 templates account for the preponderance of citation templates that editors use simply because these are the templates offered and because

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I concur with Trappist on this (in his first post above; I don't have an opinion on what is most common on classical CD covers, or whether a wikiproject will have something to say about the OP's question). There appear to be conflicting instructions at one page, to use

4246:, etc typically lie behind a paywall. Because that is the normal case, we do not highlight that norm so cs1|2 does not support subscription / registration icons for those identifiers. For the occasional cases where the identifier-linked source is free-to-read, use 1241:

fields), or even allow it at all. These people are entirely accustomed to either conforming to the house style sheets of the publications they submit papers to, or having it conformed for them. As a long-term test, I've been normalizing Vanc. author names to

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Do I understand that you are volunteering for that migration task next time we have a deprecation? If so, then great; keep an eye on this talk page (though I don't anticipate that we will be deprecating anything anytime soon). It appears to me that Editor

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Ultimately I put more emphasis on reduction of complexity because it is an existential threat to the project, putting a damper on attracting new users and burning out old over the long run - a small forcing to be sure but something that is controllabe. --

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I looked through the first dozen or so of the search results. What I found was an amazing lack of consistency. In most cases, the title in the citation was not the title of the entry at fossilworks (close sometimes, but not that close) for example from

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A lot to cover, so this will be a bit long. TemplateData: I thought that was being migrated to WikiData anyway. I did understand that it could be used for tool configuration/control, but it's still strange to me that inverting the relationship between

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Why are subscription= and registration= now deprecated? Where was the discussion to make them deprecated? Who determined they were not of use to specify that a subscription is required to access the full version of an article or journal? You linked to

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to make the capitalization of the category names consistent. These changes would go into effect with the next module update, and existing categories would need to be renamed or moved (or just deleted and recreated, whatever makes the most sense). –

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and I would be very surprised if their names did not appear on the media notes's cover so were I citing media notes I would probably use the words on the front cover of the notes for the citation's title. Just reaching into my box of CDs, here is

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should update the documentation right after to reflect how the template works. Asking other editors who know only part of the code to go and update it should not be how any template works and will never work and will always be met with silence. --

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newspaper, a website as a website. Learning that such things lump to the term 'work' was a new concept to me when I first came to Knowledge. I would not be surprised to learn that most new editors experience something similar. If we promote

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should be renamed to something else because the value that it takes is not a url but a keyword. I have never gotten much support for renaming it to something else, perhaps because I haven't yet found a better name; yeah, we could flip it to

4973:{{cite news |title=Kramer Persists in Denying Guilt |url=http://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1945/10/10/issue.html |url-access=subscription |accessdate=19 September 2015 |newspaper=The New York Times |date=10 October 1945 |page=8}} 1237:

policies). However, this doesn't mean we need stand-alone templates for Vancouver citation formatting, or even that CS1/CS2 should support any parameters relating to that citation style, though I don't think there's any real harm in the

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If this bothers you, you could move the inline citations into the references block, so that the text in the article body becomes readable at source-code level again and the references can be easily maintained independent of the article

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end with "url=" causes other problems, e.g. when cleaning up citations for consistency and readability: a mass change done to all the actual URL-providing parameters in the page ends up having to be reversed for the dead-url case.

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You know, whenever I hear or read anything that remotely sounds like "I'm sure that we can all agree ...", that is when I start to think: "no, we do not all agree ..."; it's the contrarian in me. So, I tried a couple of simple

1629:, and each template's documentation page, and probably other places, too. Some of these are pulling the same documentation via transclusion, which is a good thing, while others are separate documentation, which is increasingly 2820:

It's easier to remember 1 thing, learned one time, then to remember 5 different ways depending on context. This is evident, most people default to 2 or 3 cite templates most of the time, mostly cite web, rather than learn the

3117:. I think the reason it was done this way is that the fossilworks website requests that both the database and their gateway website are given in citations. There are some examples of other ways that this has been attempted. 4917:{{cite news |title=Kramer Persists in Denying Guilt |article-url=http://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1945/10/10/issue.html |accessdate=19 September 2015 |newspaper=The New York Times |date=10 October 1945 |page=8}} 2212:

So what is the actual technical issue here? How is updating the template documentation having any affect on some external tool? I think by now most of us have noticed that editors are leaning increasingly toward using

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urls link to a database held at University of Wisconsin–Madison. Two separate databases. There is at least a one-way sync from the UW database to the Macquarie database – there is no mention of data sync in the other

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is not necessary, except as a slight (very slight, and even misguided) accommodation to the sensibilities of some editors. Mind, I am not necessarily against such accommodations, but we should be clear on why we do so.

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because it is transitory; once the deprecation period ends that table will be cleared until the next time we deprecate something. Feel free to edit that table. The basic subscription/registration documentation is at

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instead of (as they claimed) a decent computer science faculty. The new software never did work, and was abandoned after three wasted years. No, magazines are magazines and I have something like 900 back numbers of

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efficient (more effort relative to the information). And this is without factoring in any additional effort required further on. If people want vcite style, fine, but "more efficient" is a poor reason for doing so.

3464:. I'm guessing there was some kind of tiny syntax error in what I did in the TemplateData block, or I'm missing information about what that third-party tool is doing with that information in its own codebase. 905:

Editors at en.wiki will write Vancouver-style name-lists so it seems prudent to me to acknowledge that, stop squabbling, document the advantages and the disadvantages in a common place, and then get on with

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It looks like VE is passing a page title value when generating the rendering, so there may be an issue with Parsoid passing the right context to Lua. Investigating that issue might take a while, so in the

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Existential threat? Can you point us to research that shows that template complexity – more to the point, cs1|2 complexity – has detrimentally effected new-editor attraction and older editor retention?

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I don't see why not. Editor Boghog did agree that the template and module are no longer needed and can copy off the rationale to someplace and someone else can put the counter-rationale. Instances of

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didn't properly understand what deprecation means but I see that you and another editor provided appropriate guidance so those problems caused by Editor Mill 1 have been resolved. Thank you for that.

2744:

en.wiki prefers commonly recognizable names for article titles and other things, why should these templates counter that preference by preferring jargon over a common name for parameters that it uses?

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or add a new one via the citations toolbar, the field "website" is treated as a separate field from work (whereas they were previously one). Can someone please now merge these two fields perfectly? --

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If you are replying to me, as it appears by where you chose to place your comment, then you are arguing with the wrong person. I have made no comments at all regarding efficiency in this discussion.

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normalizing similar templates to have identical parameters (for editor sanity, for codebase sharing, and for direct merger of redundant templates). So, I'm in no way surprised at the favoring of

1567: 5136:, and possibly also the HTML response #s (e.g. 404) which would enable machine checking (ru.WP allows HTML responses). Current values would be deprecated but could be bot-trivially replaced. -- 1210:

I agree that the separate templates are not necessary, and concur strongly with Izno ("vauthors is really more of a hack to get medical Knowledge authors on board; we'd prefer full names using

639:

I would honestly prefer not to keep that rationale around on official documentation. Vauthors is really more of a hack to get medical Knowledge authors on board; we'd prefer full names using

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as separate things was the diametric opposite of the intended and expected results (and frankly seems like really bizarre behavior on the part of that tool – a problem to fix on that end).

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would be useful as seperate parameters. Fossilworks is a website that uses the Palaeontogy Database (the work?), which also can be accessed from its own website. This is usually handled

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that is not to make some very minimal reduction in the length of the full citation, but to move all full citations to their own section. The problem doing that is it requires the use of

2502:) is confusion about which parameter is for what; the more differently named parameters there are, the harder it is for people to make sense of them and memorize them. The trend toward 1555: 862:

I suspect that all of this back and forth over the good and bad of Vancouver-style is somewhat pointless. Yeah, in Candide's best of all possible worlds, all cs1|2 authors would be in

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had the exact effect that was reported above. My intent was certainly not to fork these parameters into separate entities, much less necessitate the creation of redundant categories!

5464:) has 53 cite templates, that means that 54 copies of the article are being parsed in order to obtain one tiny setting. The article is 80,871 bytes, so it works out at over 4 MB. -- 2526:

Part of my "job" as a P&G editor, a TemplateEditor, a PageMover, and a gnome in general is to normalize how stuff works to match what the community is doing/expects, what the

972: 2618: 1673:

There are more such "documentation forks" (I think WP:CFI needs another section for that concept), and I hadn't even noticed the one reported here a few threads above, where

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is appropriate. Using the PB database as the work and just referencing fossilworks in the url is the kind of surprise we should be avoiding. A number of the examples use

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make it easy to use confusingly divergent cite styles; WP is for readers, not for writers, much less writers with particular field-specific style manuals on their desks.

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are complex to set up and maintain. Harvard might make sense sense when a few sources are cited many times, but much less sense when most sources are cited only once.

3429:, please don't think I am trying to be your enemy. If you think "work" should be the main field, please do so. But not in a way that makes website a separate field. -- 1817:

for example). Should this help page be a clone of csdoc or should it hold explanatory text that expands upon the documentation in csdoc? Should it be something else?

879: 483:

markup nor a wikilink, and is ambiguous at best and just a meaningless two-letter acronym to the average reader. Would also be nice if it accepted "undated" as input.

3210:{{cite web|url=http://fossilworks.org/bridge.pl?a=taxonInfo&taxon_no=162281|title=''Panthera leo atrox''|last=|first=|date=|work=]|format=|accessdate=2012-03-11}} 1617:) various pages have been long out of step with each other. We have too much of it separately maintained (and often basically unmaintained) in too many places, like 1005:", because here it is also less information. It is arguable that the decrease of typing effort is less than the decrease of information, and therefore vcite style is 3323:

one is unusual as the url is a hybrid using the fossilworks web service function with a paleobiology database url. The paleobiology database item would normally use

292:

don't know who created the media notes, we should not guess. When we cite a magazine article about a concert given by Gaga and Cooper, we don't include them in the

3077:

You don't offer any specific examples here but an insource: search for "Palaeontogy Database" did not find that string in use in article space. Perhaps you meant '

2458:. If you convert an entire article to use the consistent and concise construction, virtually never will anyone will revert you (probably only at an obscure-topic 4396: 2271:

documentation. Because the two functions are intertwined in some inexplicable ways, changing the 'documentation' can, as OP notes, have detrimental side effects.

4733:

of 10 Oct 1945, title=Kramer persists in denying guilt. It had an error message because it used the subscription=yes parameter. Now I have a subscription to the

3653: 1760:

writers who have editors overseeing what it is that they write. That isn't perfect either but its a damn sight better that the stuff that developers churn out.

3907: 2650:

today (and I eventually, even on that page, was convinced to "support adding |website= as, and only as, synonymous with |work=". It's not a issue of whether

3106:

Apologies both for wrong database name and lack of examples. I was going to add examples but had to leave unexpectedly. You can find several examples using

3081:'? There are about 7k hits for that. A similar insource: search for Fossilworks also found about 7k hits. If the url is pointing to fossilworks.org then 676:

is not a hack, but a very efficient way to store author data that reduces wiki text clutter. It also enforces consistency in how first names are displayed.

822:(proximity search allowing up to two words in between, order of words unimportant) returns 299 hits, a large majority of which are off-topic. A search for 405:

I have a fair collection of classical recordings and don't know that I've ever seen one that doesn't have the composer and performers listed on the cover.

3266:{{cite web|url=http://paleodb.org/cgi-bin/bridge.pl?action=checkTaxonInfo&taxon_no=42695|title=Giraffa (giraffe)|publisher=] |accessdate=2016-09-13}} 5413: 5490: 4378: 4331: 3937: 2442:

But some of what I've noticing more and more over about the last three years are the following: There's been a sharp increase in constructions like

439:

I was just about to try to address here, anyway, and will do so in a thread below: the problem of increased forking of the citation template docs.

3649: 4073:

unsightly error messages to try and force this reader- and editor-unfriendly system on articles is a worse idea. This change should be reverted.

740:

Vcite format is very annoying when one is trying to determine which references by people named RS Smith are actually relevant for an article on

474:

also works), can we please get this changed to report "undated" or perhaps "no date" instead of regurgitating the literal string "n.d."? It's a

5575:

Well regardless of whether you'd like to take credit or not, I want to thank you for making the change here! I'm ecstatic to not have to add

5509: 5171: 5166: 5161: 3875: 3860: 3807: 3769: 3735: 3728: 3715: 3700: 3642: 2654:

exists, but of whether we "advertise" the consistent parameter or the divergent ones more. And, secondarily, what needs to be done to favor

1626: 1225:

use of Vancouver or any other citation style, and that changing the style at an article with an established and consistent citation style is

97: 89: 84: 72: 67: 59: 1681:

Maybe we need some kind of "map" of all the documentation, from which we can figure out how to transclude more and separately maintain less.

5270:

I strongly concur with that, and would favor "url-status" as less ambiguous than "url-state" ("state" has too many other meanings). Having

4053:; one source may be behind a paywall while the other source is not (they don't have to link into the same domain); it is not possible for 3883: 412:

I suspect that there is a WikiProject that cares about these kinds of citations. Perhaps they should be invited into this conversation?

1141:

of some form, such as done with Harv templates, which is anathema to some editors. So I would say (in response to Pppery's query) that

670:

reliably) be obtained from PubMed if needed? Also many don't like LDR as it splits up the text from the sources that support the text.

2600:) we went through a spate of confusion, anger, ... (pic your emotion). Since then, there has been little or no discussion here about 2344:

perhaps we need someone who can hunt through a recent database dump or we need to modify the cs1|2 modules to add properties cats for

518: 510: 4725:

gives a list of odd-looking terms in place of url= when subscription=yes had been used for a newspaper citation. In specific, in the

4510:

I tested this locally, the bug in the preview seems to have been introduced by the most recent change here as reverting it fixes it:

3342:

This general question of how to best cite taxonomic databases and the gateway websites comes up quite often and will more in future.

1637:

at these pages (I think I managed to resolve that today) is almost certainly the primary proximal cause of editors continuing to use

5353: 5286: 4537: 3784: 3757: 3722: 3580: 3527: 3475: 2673: 2558: 2260: 1734: 1693: 1491: 1333: 1269: 494: 450: 3753: 2626: 2622: 1587: 1583: 1370: 4037:

is that they are vague, non-specific parameters. Functionality of these two parameters with greater specificity is provided by

2176:

If you are going to mention an editor by name, courtesy requires you to ping that editor. Because you didn't, I shall: pinging

4737:, so I do not know what a person sees who does not have one, if they click the link. I tried using article-url-access= for the 3895: 818:

Searching for authors with a common name such as Smith is not trivial, even when the full first name is included. A search for

3976:

discussion, where you only said you would be removing it without justifying why. Shouldn't this have been a consensus matter?

5590: 4747: 3614: 1573: 1561: 1669:

failure, though I would try discussion/persuasion several more times before making some kind of dramaboard issue out of it.)

1164:

was necessary, only whether it was necessary to have special templates for it when the main template already supported it.

4741:

article, and that generated error messages saying accessdate needs url, among other messages. As far as I understand, the

4385: 4338: 3837: 2591: 1579: 878:

but, alas, that ideal world is not this world. I've just made an awb pass through 25k of the 30k articles that populate

2927: 777:

doesn't necessarily make it any easier finding an author since there are few restrictions on what is stored there. Wtih

352: 267: 235: 215: 188: 125: 4512:

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Module%3ACitation%2FCS1&type=revision&diff=893307475&oldid=879151028

4469: 4219:

gives a "requires URL" error. Hopefully that made sense -- and apologies if this has been addressed and I missed it. –

1613:

There is increasing inconsistency between the various loci of our cite template documentation. In some cases (e.g. for

5566: 5520: 5447: 5426:: Returns the (unparsed) content of the page, or nil if there is no page. The page will be recorded as a transclusion. 5261: 5183: 5115: 5054: 5011: 4702: 4625: 4426: 4361: 4282: 4158: 4101: 4041:

and related parameters. It is, unfortunately, all too common for editors to use these parameters for urls other than

3948: 3926: 3399: 3319:

This is something I plan to do. As you have seen there is incredible inconsistency in how the citations are made. The

3310: 3097: 3007: 2935: 2809: 2752: 2637: 2404: 2203: 2122: 1841: 1825: 1776: 1713: 1598: 1437: 1127: 962: 914: 882:. I was plucking off the low hanging fruit, some of which was conversion of Vancouver-style name-list assignments in 630: 587: 529: 420: 314: 4495:

It appears that the problem only occurs when creating a new page. Editing an existing page seems to work just fine.--

3286:– and yep, different title (this time not found as an alt at the database entry and not at The Paleobiology Database. 1657:. Sometimes authors of these tools are surprisingly stubborn in refusing to update their code to comply with current 3903: 5209:

Sorry, but I don't think that is a good name because in cs1|2, all url-holding parameters have names that end with

5107:

but that just doesn't sound write. This parameter, I think, is the only one like that. Got a suggestion for that?

4350: 3914: 3829: 3776: 3152: 3132: 2919: 1380: 47: 38: 17: 3135:, not what is requested of us by external entities (even if it isn't just a "cite this database" kind of page). -- 923:

Agree. Now, back to my original point; it is clear than these templates are not needed, shall I list them at TfD?

770: 3275: 2822: 135:

for the artist, and liner notes often do not have a credited author. Here's an example of the template used with

3271: 2330:

Because both searches timed out, results are wholly unreliable and inconclusive. To get an accurate measure of

2290: 1539:

Do we want to do the same with the Access parameters? I did not see anywhere that this categorization occurs. --

1082:. Please note that citevar covers both how the citation is rendered as well as how the citation data is stored. 323:

I am open to a different usage. The template's custom documentation, under "Brief instructions", indicates that

106: 4721:

This section gives cryptic advice, and my efforts to follow that advice generated more errors in the citation.

4681: 4676:

against the last saved version of the page, this gadget should handle the case where getContent() returns nil.

4666: 4648: 4371: 4324: 4292: 4220: 3296: 3258:

Leidy 1853 (lion) on Fossilworks (not Paleobiology Database). We should not surprise readers. This one, from

2531:

my own or some WP:FACTION's preferences, or were simply terrible at gauging what the ground-truth consensus is.

1451: 809: 749: 796:

few off-topic hits. If I search for "Smith RS" who knows how many irrelevant things will turn up instead. And

4476:

Lua error in Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration at line 458: attempt to index local 'content' (a nil value)").

3089:

is appropriate. We shouldn't astonish readers by writing citations that name one source but link to another.

2658:

without breaking a tool and causing it to treat them as separate parameters rather than one parameter with a

1813:

of the 'official' csdoc documentation), and has other documentation not in csdoc (the three subsections of §

1723:

jointly coming up with a "roadmap" for resolving it. It likely isn't an issue that needs a single champeen.

5562: 5542: 5529: 5516: 5443: 5257: 5179: 5111: 5063: 5050: 5020: 5007: 4698: 4621: 4422: 4357: 4278: 4200: 4169: 4154: 4114: 4097: 3966: 3944: 3922: 3395: 3306: 3093: 3003: 2805: 2748: 2633: 2400: 2199: 2118: 1821: 1772: 1709: 1594: 1433: 1329: 1123: 958: 941: 910: 626: 583: 545: 525: 416: 310: 5217:

a poor name (editors regularly give that parameter the dead url as a value) and why so far, in my opinion,

5003:

Yeah, documentation can always be made better. If you see a way to improve our documentation please do so.

2466:), because the change is generally seen as an improvement; but if you go the opposite direction, replacing 5072: 5029: 4755: 3694: 3677: 3669: 3436: 2903: 2506:

is natural for more generalized reasons, too, familiar to those who spend a lot of time in discussions at

2241:, and to mention the variant aliases only in passing, as legacy options. Having a tool like ProveIt treat 2164: 1102: 1064: 549: 295: 4480:

Please fix this, this may affect every Knowledge user trying to add a reference in visual editing mode.--

1609:

Cite template docs forking (sometimes badly) – we need to use the transcludes more and separate docs less

5283: 4518: 3577: 3524: 3472: 3224: 2911: 2895: 2670: 2555: 2257: 1814: 1804: 1800: 1792: 1731: 1690: 1503:(Subscription required (<span title="The site requires a paid subscription to access this page.": --> 1447: 1266: 949: 619: 491: 447: 4472:) to the Citoid field or to a regular (manual) citation template field results in the following error: 3630:

I propose to update the cs1|2 module suite sometime on the 20–21 April 2019 weekend. The changes are:

596:

I also agree that the template is no longer needed, but at the same time, I would like to preserve the

3516:

As noted above in my long-ass post, I doubt such stats would be useful, due to various forms of skew.

4979: 4834: 3023: 1768:

been discussed here, usually with examples, so there is a lot of raw material for writers to harvest.

1366: 1183: 1151: 1015: 707: 3351:

and produce output of the form "Retrieved from the Paleobiology Database on 6 May 2019" while using

3254:

is an alt form but it isn't the entry's title so readers (like me) are surprised when they land at †

5472: 5343: 4726: 4677: 4662: 4644: 4545: 4402:

Aspect B3 (Deprecating/eliminating/supporting old and new systems): There is a clear preference to

4078: 3634: 3566: 3215: 3035: 2621:. I didn't find discussion that necessarily supports that particular feature request but there is 1415: 805: 766: 745: 741: 553: 340: 278:: To record other contributors to the work, including illustrators. For the parameter value, write 246: 4323:

Deprecated? When? Where? Why? All these things I am yet to know! But seriously, what's the story?

1362:

Change the bibcode prefix from http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs to https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs

5533: 5041: 4939: 4908: 4854: 4722: 4558: 3167:

but this doesn't seem an accurate use of publisher and the website should be the one italicised.

2887: 2879: 2732: 2445: 2025: 1987: 1929: 1891: 1795:. For the most part, it seems a page without a purpose. It transcludes some documentation from 1522:(Registration required (<span title="The site requires registration to access this page.": --> 1046: 827: 801: 357:

says what it says. I wonder if those recommendations are correct and proper. The definition of

3998: 3978: 2850:

into the add-a-template text box, ve will offer them a handful of templates. For me it offers:

389:{{cite AV media notes |title=Old Blind Dogs: Close to the Bone |year=1993 |publisher=Lochshore}} 5595: 5570: 5549: 5524: 5503: 5476: 5451: 5347: 5291: 5265: 5204: 5187: 5145: 5119: 5076: 5058: 5033: 5015: 4759: 4706: 4685: 4670: 4652: 4629: 4549: 4522: 4504: 4489: 4460: 4430: 4390: 4365: 4343: 4305: 4286: 4233: 4191: 4162: 4132: 4105: 4082: 4020: 3991: 3952: 3930: 3619: 3585: 3532: 3511: 3480: 3442: 3403: 3365: 3324: 3314: 3177: 3144: 3127: 3101: 3072: 3039: 3011: 2840: 2813: 2777: 2756: 2678: 2641: 2563: 2408: 2265: 2207: 2170: 2126: 1829: 1780: 1754: 1739: 1717: 1698: 1602: 1548: 1471: 1441: 1419: 1392: 1374: 1305: 1274: 1187: 1173: 1155: 1131: 1106: 1091: 1068: 1036: 1019: 984: 966: 932: 918: 843: 813: 790: 753: 735: 711: 685: 656: 634: 613: 591: 569: 533: 499: 455: 424: 344: 318: 250: 5554:

While I would like to take the credit for that, I cannot – I just implemented it after Editor

5431:

Only way that I know of for a template to see what is outside the boundaries of its enclosing

5068: 5025: 4751: 4187: 4128: 3431: 3361: 3173: 3123: 3068: 2871: 2855: 2790: 2718: 2702: 2608:. Much of that previous discussion was about either of these parameters rendering in italics. 2479: 2453: 2296: 2159: 2154: 1234: 1219: 1098: 1079: 1060: 5512:

discussion above. There I show that this mechanism while not cost-free, is very inexpensive.

365:

suggests that Gaga and Cooper contributed to the media notes. Sure, they contributed to the

5498: 5278: 4514: 4500: 4485: 3572: 3519: 3504: 3467: 3426: 2833: 2770: 2665: 2550: 2507: 2252: 2177: 1750: 1726: 1685: 1666: 1301: 1289: 1261: 1168: 1087: 1032: 979: 927: 839: 786: 731: 681: 609: 564: 486: 442: 108: 3339:

is another possibility but that seems to be used for archive services and sites like JSTOR.

2546:

with a marginal lead anyway despite being virtually hidden in the documentation is telling.

761:

is mainly used for biomedical citations indexed by PubMed. One probably would not be using

5200: 5038:

Although it needs to be rewritten to bring it more in line with cs1|2, for ODNB, there is

4951: 4882: 4866: 3984: 2515: 2233:, etc.), for consistency, concision, ease of conversion between templates, and so on. We 2041: 2003: 1942: 1904: 1622: 1426: 1363: 1179: 1147: 1074: 1011: 703: 4451: 4119:

In the future, perhaps we can migrate the parameters before deprecating them. One editor

2514:: concision is generally a virtue, and consistency almost always is one in such matters. 1705:

champion, a St George to go out and slay the documentation dragon. Are you our champion?

111: 5483: 5465: 5336: 5141: 4541: 4468:

The citation plugin in VE seems to be broken at this time. Adding a plain URL (such as

4351:

Help talk:Citation Style 1#update to the cs1|2 module suite weekend of 20–21 April 2019

4074: 4016: 3140: 3028: 1796: 1544: 1467: 1411: 1388: 723: 652: 336: 242: 1401:

Error and maintenance category names updated in sandbox for capitalization consistency

1178:

Indeed. And then the discussion slid into the rationale for the vauthors parameter. ♦

5584: 3608: 3293:

I could go on but won't. Perhaps those articles would be better served were there a

2863: 2647: 2511: 2463: 1662: 1658: 1644:

despite its deprecation (except in one very, very specific circumstance) in favor of

1630: 1230: 3302:

I can help if the cognizant wikiproject wants to implement an appropriate template.

1554:

I don't know. But, if we do, they should be properties cats that are distinct from

5555: 4555:

I abhor ve so don't use it. If I create a new page in main space and add a simple

4183: 4124: 3357: 3191: 3169: 3119: 3064: 2459: 1653:(Another cause is tools that have not been updated and which are hard-coded to use 1379:

We are aware of this upcoming change and have made the sandbox work correctly. See

1249: 832:

there is an important distinction between what can be done, and what should be done

210:(Credits from Liner notes). Lady Gaga and Bradley Cooper. Interscope Records. 2018. 183:(Credits from Liner notes). Lady Gaga and Bradley Cooper. Interscope Records. 2018. 4691: 4658: 4540:

to figure out the date format (this feature was indeed added in the last update).

3347:

websites serving as gateways to various databases. Then it could be tied with the

3327:. So how should this be handled? The Paleobiology Database is the actual work, so 597: 110: 5495: 4496: 4481: 4139: 3734:

move missing pipe from maintenance to error; display where the missing pipe is (

3497: 2826: 2763: 2578: 1746: 1297: 1165: 1083: 1028: 976: 924: 835: 782: 727: 677: 605: 576: 561: 46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

374:

by Old Blind Dogs. Because the cover of the media notes reads, top to bottom:

5196: 4841:. No. Vol. XCV, No. 32, 036. The New York Times Company. 10 October 1945. p. 8 4769:

see a prompt for subscriber credentials and a link to purchase a subscription.

3822:

move missing pipe from maintenance to error; display where the missing pipe is

1288:

above. Divergent styles, as long as they are documented is not confusing. The

5225:

for a variety of things so if possible we should retain the current keywords

5082: 2145:? I still think "website" should be the correct name of the field as this is 5137: 4012: 3136: 1633:

in confusing and unhelpful ways. E.g., the discrepancy in the treatment of

1540: 1463: 1384: 648: 4446: 2237:

be able to update the template docs to display (and thus encourage) use of

2195:. I don't use ProveIt or ve so someone else will have to test that change. 1045:

I hate it when I run into truncated or incomplete references. Knowledge is

5162:

Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 11#Suppressing unnecessary archive-urls

4008: 3567:

Talk:Mueller Report#Publisher versus work or website in citation template

2482:-style change that is not helpful in any way to anyone. People actually 2350:. I suppose that we ought to also include the other periodical aliases ( 1618: 1280:

But you have not stated why it is necessary to include first full names.

700:

a very efficient way to store author data that reduces wiki text clutter.

475: 3262:

shows that links to the paleoboidb.org url get remapped to fossilworks:

1844:

so that the error messages emitted when something is not right with the

5320:

Why do the cite templates cause a page to transclude itself? Examples:

3259: 3489:

The regex method won't work because there are embedded templates like

1446:

Since we're considering doing this, we should consider also extending

575:

I would say that these are no longer needed but you should ask Editor

5461: 1791:

One obvious (to me at least) thing that should be done is to cleanup

666: 3727:

make editorship of a work explicit when used with an authored work (

1407:

updated two error category names and many maintenance category names

2137: 1056:

efficiency often creates inconveniences or extra work for others...

4532:

when a page is being created; but that is checked in the function

4459: 3343: 2846:

they muddle their way into the ve add-a-template editor and type

2535:

at least as granularly as month to month. Even then, there's the

1355: 5532:, 200 ms difference with a 505 reference article. Impressive. — 5172:

Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 42#Correct usage of dead URL?

4395:

The linked conversation was a very brief summary. There was an

3775:

support single letter second-level domain names for .today tld (

3203: 1296:

Committee of Medical Journal Editors (ICMJE). Time to move on.

3370:

It has taken a bit of time for me to, I think, untangle this.

4045:. It is legitimate for a citation to have, for example, both 3555: 2569:

I have not noticed whether or not editors are currently using

1317: 1218:"). If Boghog's point is de-hyperbolized, it is correct that 112: 25: 1848:

parameters, show the name of the actual parameters involved:

1803:), includes what appears to copies some of the csdoc text (§ 4262:

and aliases) are normally free-to-read. When they are not,

4203:, is there some middle ground that I'm not aware of between 3819:

move et al patterns, editor_markup_patterns from main module

3626:

update to the cs1|2 module suite weekend of 20–21 April 2019

1568:

Category:Pages containing links to subscription-only content

5167:

Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 19#deprecate |dead-url=?

2217:

instead of the custom aliases it has at various templates (

3151:

Fair enough, we cite where we read it, but the example in

2944:

If they use the wikisource editor, then they are offered:

4729:

article on the concentration camp, there is a ref to the

3592: 2617:

in the cs1|2 module suite seems to have arisen from this

2153:. But because of his edit, now whenever I edit a ref via 4620:

but that is possibly just a mask and not a proper fix. —

4370:

Interesting discussion—about a lack of discussion! :p

3078: 1556:

Category:Pages with login required references or sources

1405:

A minor change, but possibly worth a discussion: I have

5329: 5324: 4793: 4776: 4511: 4120: 3114: 2596: 2383: 2322: 2313: 2191: 2142: 1809: 1406: 823: 819: 3591:

Note that this discussion has continued, and led to a

1665:

changes, or anything else, which I think is a form of

1292:

is not primarily American. It was established by the

3062:

parameter for one of them, which doesn't seem right.

2629:(you rose in opposition in that latter conversation). 2427:

templates being documented as having parameters like

118:

Possible exception to para others maintenance message

1358:

site is now complaining about oncoming deprecation.

1284:is not a reason. The pros and cons have discussed 5089:Template:Citation Style documentation/registration 4978: 4123:a previously non-ambiguous use of "subscription".— 4093:I'll get round to updating the help text in a bit. 3194:does not describe citations of individual records. 2382:) and perhaps create maintenance cats for those. 2101: 2082: 256:I guess the first question that I have is: Should 5439:. This was done to support auto date formatting. 5253:. Thank you for the suggestion. Got any others? 4765:en.wiki readers who do not have subscriptions to 3378:urls link to a database at Macquarie University. 3190:I have to agree with Editor Izno here. And, the 2823:family of cite templates and their argument names 1052:People claiming "efficiency" often overlook that 5494:ed submodule, so it only happens once per page. 4567:We can, I suspect, mask the problem by writing: 2999:answer the majority of editors's citation needs. 2185:I think that I have restored the canonical form 2102: 2083: 1917: 1879: 880:Category:CS1 maint: Multiple names: authors list 604:parameter. Any suggestions for how to do this? 361:says nothing about disambiguation. The use of 220:: CS1 maint: others in cite AV media (notes) ( 193:: CS1 maint: others in cite AV media (notes) ( 4901:parameter. Your example citation doesn't use 4009:Help:CS1#Registration or subscription required 3593:new section below on clearly defining examples 5081:The deprecated parameter table is defined at 4774:The access date and other errors happened at 3825:move explicit et al from maintenance to error 3754:Category:CS1 errors: missing author or editor 3741:move explicit et al from maintenance to error 3654:User:Trappist the monk/script/MOSNUM_dates.js 3496:take some work, so only if really needed. -- 8: 3456:to instead be treated as aliases (including 3155:also gives the original source in the form " 2536: 661:The vast majority of the citations that use 327:should be used for "Artist, producers, etc." 260:be used in this way? The documentation for 4905:because that parameter is not supported by 3545:Perennial italics debate is recycling again 2301:templates. I did two searches looking for 1588:Category:CS1 sources requiring subscription 1584:Category:CS1 sources requiring registration 1478:Categorization of registration/subscription 5583:to a whole bunch of citations anymore!! - 3768:to detect html entity fragment delimiter ( 3561:Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere. 3085:is appropriate; if to paleobiodb.org then 3050:There is one example I can think of where 2279:I think by now most of us have noticed ... 989:Efficiency is always a proportion. Simply 231:Should we suppress this maint message for 4528:Looks like the issue is that there is no 3721:move et al and editor markup patterns to 2687:over any of the 'periodical' parameters ( 1807:is more-or-less a text copy derived from 3246:Leidy 1853 (lion) which only shares the 2699:) in their respective cs1 templates and 2646:I'm not sure reviewing that old history 2053: 1951: 1850: 1521:'<span class="db-Y3MxLXJlZ2lzdA": --> 1502:'<span class="db-Y3MxLXN1YnNjcg": --> 149: 4530:mw.title.getCurrentTitle():getContent() 3650:User:Ohconfucius/script/MOSNUM_dates.js 1836:better |xxx-url-access= error reporting 5580: 5576: 5271: 5222: 5218: 5214: 5192: 5155: 5151: 5125: 5104: 5099: 5098:For a very long time I have said that 4967: 4963: 4947: 4937: 4902: 4898: 4894: 4878: 4874: 4862: 4852: 4822: 4809: 4805: 4801: 4797: 4789: 4785: 4781: 4415: 4411: 4263: 4259: 4255: 4251: 4247: 4243: 4239: 4216: 4212: 4208: 4204: 4066: 4062: 4058: 4054: 4050: 4046: 4042: 4038: 4034: 4030: 4004: 3867: 3856: 3852: 3845: 3814: 3803: 3799: 3795: 3745: 3711: 3707: 3688: 3604: 3600: 3596: 3461: 3457: 3453: 3449: 3352: 3348: 3336: 3332: 3328: 3242:leads to a fossilworks entry titled: † 3164: 3110: 3107: 3086: 3082: 3059: 3055: 3051: 2784: 2712: 2708: 2696: 2692: 2688: 2684: 2659: 2655: 2651: 2614: 2605: 2601: 2587: 2574: 2570: 2543: 2520: 2503: 2499: 2495: 2491: 2487: 2475: 2471: 2467: 2436: 2432: 2428: 2421: 2417: 2387: 2379: 2375: 2371: 2367: 2363: 2359: 2355: 2351: 2335: 2331: 2319: 2310: 2278: 2246: 2242: 2238: 2230: 2226: 2222: 2218: 2214: 2186: 2037: 2033: 2023: 1999: 1995: 1985: 1938: 1927: 1900: 1889: 1845: 1674: 1654: 1645: 1638: 1634: 1614: 1490:cause categorization of pages; see in 1487: 1483: 1460:'CS1 maintenance: ignored ISBN errors' 1281: 1245: 1242: 1215: 1211: 1161: 1142: 1002: 994: 895: 891: 887: 883: 871: 863: 831: 778: 774: 762: 758: 722:Knowledge. Other alternatives such as 718: 699: 695: 673: 662: 644: 640: 601: 557: 471: 467: 435: 362: 358: 324: 261: 257: 213: 186: 144: 140: 136: 132: 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 5558:reminded me how Lua data tables work. 5488:That's not true; the parsing is in a 3913:more accurate inactive DOI category ( 1805:Registration or subscription required 1627:Template:Citation Style documentation 7: 5150:Previous conversations that suggest 4922:"Kramer Persists in Denying Guilt". 4800:parameters are not replacements for 4238:Sources linked through identifiers, 2625:and a long section of a much longer 1580:Category:CS1 sources limiting access 1314:Protected edit request on 5 May 2019 462:The n.d. keyword for undated sources 363:|others=Lady Gaga and Bradley Cooper 162:|others=Lady Gaga and Bradley Cooper 4804:but are, instead, replacements for 4657:The underlying issue is tracked as 4399:the closing summary of which says: 4254:is the opposite; sources linked by 3884:Module:Citation/CS1/Date validation 2478:, a revert is much more likely, as 479: 349:I agree that the documentation for 5460:expensive. If an article (such as 4980:"Kramer Persists in Denying Guilt" 4966:so the proper access parameter is 4835:"Kramer Persists in Denying Guilt" 3380:https://paleobiodb.org/classic/... 3087:|website=The Paleobiology Database 2787:as the primary parameter name for 2683:For me, because I would not favor 24: 5404:-- get the content of the article 5354:Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration 4538:Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration 4349:I think that this is answered at 3785:Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration 3758:Category:CS1 errors: missing name 3723:Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration 3656:(this is a blocking requirement) 3192:How should I cite Fossilworks FAQ 3133:We cite wherever we read the info 1678:or other specific bio parameter. 1492:Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration 1334:Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration 395:Old Blind Dogs: Close to the Bone 4291:Thanks, that does make sense. – 4003:They are deprecated in favor of 3938:interface protected edit request 3904:mw:Extension:Wikibase_Client/Lua 3657: 3550: 2066:|article-url-access=subscription 1964:|article-url-access=subscription 1456:'CS1 maint: ignored ISBN errors' 1321: 29: 4788:in a citation that was not the 3896:Module:Citation/CS1/Identifiers 397:(Media notes). Lochshore. 1993. 151:Cite AV media notes comparison 5083:" title="Help:CS1 errors": --> 4962:The example citation does use 4748:Template:Subscription required 4061:to specify which is which but 3936:Required auto date formatting 3682:documentation update suggested 3641:support auto-date-formatting ( 3335:but this seems inappropriate. 1651:half a decade ago at a least. 1356:http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/ 385:I might write something like: 168:|type=Credits from Liner notes 1: 5276: 4723:Template:Cite news#Deprecated 3838:Module:Citation/CS1/Whitelist 3570: 3517: 3465: 2663: 2592:Module:Citation/CS1/Whitelist 2548: 2250: 1939:|article-url-access=subscript 1901:|article-url-access=subscript 1863:|article-url-access=subscript 1724: 1683: 1259: 620:Help:Citation Style 1#Authors 484: 440: 164:|publisher=Interscope Records 5221:might be preferred. We use 3890:support auto-date-formatting 3791:support auto-date-formatting 2439:; I really didn't care much. 513:. There was some talk about 3329:|work=Paleobiology Database 3108:|work=Paleobiology Database 2456:|work=The BarBaz Blog|...}} 1842:Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox 1348:to reactivate your request. 1336:has been answered. Set the 798:number of characters stored 478:problem, in that it has no 5622: 5571:23:58, 25 April 2019 (UTC) 5550:23:52, 25 April 2019 (UTC) 5525:23:24, 25 April 2019 (UTC) 5504:23:15, 25 April 2019 (UTC) 5477:23:09, 25 April 2019 (UTC) 5452:23:03, 25 April 2019 (UTC) 5348:22:30, 25 April 2019 (UTC) 5325:Help talk:Citation Style 1 5266:23:20, 25 April 2019 (UTC) 5237:(we would have to replace 5205:16:21, 25 April 2019 (UTC) 5188:15:30, 25 April 2019 (UTC) 5146:15:02, 25 April 2019 (UTC) 5120:12:22, 25 April 2019 (UTC) 5091:. Feel free to edit that. 5077:11:52, 25 April 2019 (UTC) 5059:13:07, 24 April 2019 (UTC) 5034:12:39, 24 April 2019 (UTC) 5016:11:42, 24 April 2019 (UTC) 4760:03:46, 24 April 2019 (UTC) 4707:15:10, 23 April 2019 (UTC) 4686:14:24, 23 April 2019 (UTC) 4671:14:18, 23 April 2019 (UTC) 4653:14:11, 23 April 2019 (UTC) 4630:11:34, 23 April 2019 (UTC) 4550:08:05, 23 April 2019 (UTC) 4523:08:00, 23 April 2019 (UTC) 4505:04:37, 23 April 2019 (UTC) 4490:03:03, 23 April 2019 (UTC) 4444: 4431:13:59, 23 April 2019 (UTC) 4391:09:53, 23 April 2019 (UTC) 4366:19:36, 22 April 2019 (UTC) 4344:19:26, 22 April 2019 (UTC) 4306:21:23, 26 April 2019 (UTC) 4287:20:46, 26 April 2019 (UTC) 4234:20:05, 26 April 2019 (UTC) 4192:10:49, 21 April 2019 (UTC) 4163:10:34, 21 April 2019 (UTC) 4133:01:13, 21 April 2019 (UTC) 4106:15:22, 20 April 2019 (UTC) 4083:20:10, 24 April 2019 (UTC) 4021:15:14, 20 April 2019 (UTC) 3992:15:07, 20 April 2019 (UTC) 3953:16:17, 14 April 2019 (UTC) 3931:15:37, 14 April 2019 (UTC) 3548: 2613:The original rational for 2070:|chapter-url=//example.com 2051:and aliasing still works: 1867:|chapter-url=//example.com 1188:21:14, 29 April 2019 (UTC) 1174:20:03, 29 April 2019 (UTC) 1156:19:59, 29 April 2019 (UTC) 1132:20:39, 28 April 2019 (UTC) 1069:18:51, 30 April 2019 (UTC) 1037:01:16, 29 April 2019 (UTC) 1020:19:54, 28 April 2019 (UTC) 985:19:48, 28 April 2019 (UTC) 967:19:32, 28 April 2019 (UTC) 933:19:13, 28 April 2019 (UTC) 919:18:39, 28 April 2019 (UTC) 844:07:38, 28 April 2019 (UTC) 814:06:33, 28 April 2019 (UTC) 791:05:52, 28 April 2019 (UTC) 754:04:51, 28 April 2019 (UTC) 736:04:00, 28 April 2019 (UTC) 712:20:05, 27 April 2019 (UTC) 686:07:11, 27 April 2019 (UTC) 657:18:54, 26 April 2019 (UTC) 635:17:55, 26 April 2019 (UTC) 614:17:48, 26 April 2019 (UTC) 592:23:30, 25 April 2019 (UTC) 579:whose projects those were. 570:23:25, 25 April 2019 (UTC) 18:Help talk:Citation Style 1 5213:. It is this that makes 5124:I think I have suggested 3276:The Paleobiology Database 2096: 2077: 2059: 2011: 1973: 1957: 1912: 1874: 1856: 1810:this (or similar) version 1160:I was not asking whether 552:still necessary now that 280:Illustrated by John Smith 202: 175: 155: 5359: 5330:User:Redrose64/Sandbox14 4897:parameters each match a 4717:Deprecated subscription= 4571: 4319:Parameter: |subscription 4264:|url-access=subscription 3714:, refactor et al check ( 2435:, and barely mentioning 1496: 1452:Category:CS1 maintenance 1429:will need to be revised. 5596:19:54, 6 May 2019 (UTC) 5456:This sounds expensive. 5292:20:37, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 4987:. 10 October 1945. p. 8 4926:. 10 October 1945. p. 8 4464:Screenshot of the error 3872:limited_basic_arguments 3620:19:50, 6 May 2019 (UTC) 3586:05:47, 2 May 2019 (UTC) 3533:20:33, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 3512:15:18, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 3481:20:33, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 3443:13:45, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 3404:15:12, 6 May 2019 (UTC) 3376:http://fossilworks.org/ 3366:10:50, 6 May 2019 (UTC) 3315:17:11, 4 May 2019 (UTC) 3178:10:50, 6 May 2019 (UTC) 3145:16:10, 4 May 2019 (UTC) 3128:15:59, 4 May 2019 (UTC) 3102:14:59, 4 May 2019 (UTC) 3073:13:09, 4 May 2019 (UTC) 3040:00:01, 5 May 2019 (UTC) 3012:12:27, 5 May 2019 (UTC) 2841:01:04, 5 May 2019 (UTC) 2814:14:59, 4 May 2019 (UTC) 2778:12:58, 4 May 2019 (UTC) 2757:12:04, 4 May 2019 (UTC) 2707:, so I would not favor 2679:09:11, 4 May 2019 (UTC) 2642:23:41, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 2564:20:33, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 2409:13:30, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 2384:This (timed out) search 2289:There are, at present, 2266:11:45, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 2208:11:23, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 2171:09:43, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 2127:18:06, 5 May 2019 (UTC) 1830:16:05, 5 May 2019 (UTC) 1781:00:45, 4 May 2019 (UTC) 1755:22:16, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 1740:19:28, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 1718:13:41, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 1699:12:14, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 1603:13:56, 5 May 2019 (UTC) 1549:13:18, 5 May 2019 (UTC) 1472:13:13, 5 May 2019 (UTC) 1442:11:24, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 1420:08:06, 2 May 2019 (UTC) 1393:02:51, 5 May 2019 (UTC) 1375:02:04, 5 May 2019 (UTC) 1306:06:33, 4 May 2019 (UTC) 1275:21:00, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 1107:20:54, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 1092:14:51, 1 May 2019 (UTC) 665:are also stored in the 546:Template:Vcite2 journal 534:00:24, 4 May 2019 (UTC) 500:21:07, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 456:12:00, 3 May 2019 (UTC) 425:15:25, 2 May 2019 (UTC) 345:14:18, 2 May 2019 (UTC) 319:13:40, 2 May 2019 (UTC) 303:{{cite AV media notes}} 300:template; why do it in 251:07:31, 2 May 2019 (UTC) 5356:has this at line 456: 4465: 4441:Broken citation module 3750:better error messaging 3708:|display-contributors= 3333:|publisher=fossilworks 3165:|publisher=fossilworks 3111:|publisher=Fossilworks 2597:this edit 9 April 2013 2537: 2462:that has an effective 1425:The category links in 1354:Bibcode access on the 946:need to be renamed to 5128:with possible values 4817:Here is the original 4463: 4418:are the 'old system'. 4121:just flat out removed 3828:tweak etal patterns ( 3712:|display-translators= 3225:Paleobiology Database 3079:Paleobiology Database 2604:being preferred over 2143:"website" with "work" 2141:imperfectly replaced 2055:Cite book comparison 1953:Cite book comparison 1852:Cite book comparison 1793:Help:Citation Style 1 1574:subscription required 1562:registration required 505:The first mention of 166:|title=A Star Is Born 160:{{cite AV media notes 42:of past discussions. 5510:auto date formatting 4786:|article-url-access= 4639:we should apply the 4067:|section-url-access= 3353:|website=fossilworks 3083:|website=Fossilworks 3024:The Railway Magazine 2448:|work=Foo News|...}} 2034:|article-url-access= 1996:|article-url-access= 1381:the above discussion 1073:Within the scope of 765:with an author like 556:natively supports a 550:Module:ParseVauthors 5420:title object says: 4727:Natzweiler-Struthof 4174:My bad. I mistook 4011:and subsections. -- 3902:detect presence of 3648:requires update to 3635:Module:Citation/CS1 3372:http://paleodb.org/ 3272:"Giraffa (giraffe)" 3153:WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT 2928:cite av media notes 2396:found ~8k articles. 2056: 1954: 1853: 1248:and compliant with 997:" at the outset is 618:As a subsection of 554:Module:Citation/CS1 544:Are templates like 353:cite AV media notes 268:cite AV media notes 236:Cite AV media notes 216:cite AV media notes 189:cite AV media notes 152: 126:Cite AV media notes 4985:The New York Times 4924:The New York Times 4873:Unknown parameter 4839:The New York Times 4767:The New York Times 4466: 3252:Panthera leo atrox 3218:Panthera leo atrox 2936:cite press release 2054: 1952: 1851: 1661:documentation, or 1523:help</span: --> 1504:help</span: --> 1448:Category:CS1 maint 509:I think occurs in 150: 5594: 5563:Trappist the monk 5530:Trappist the monk 5517:Trappist the monk 5444:Trappist the monk 5316:Self transclusion 5258:Trappist the monk 5180:Trappist the monk 5112:Trappist the monk 5064:Trappist the monk 5051:Trappist the monk 5021:Trappist the monk 5008:Trappist the monk 4699:Trappist the monk 4622:Trappist the monk 4423:Trappist the monk 4358:Trappist the monk 4279:Trappist the monk 4201:Trappist the monk 4170:Trappist the monk 4155:Trappist the monk 4115:Trappist the monk 4098:Trappist the monk 4029:The problem with 3989: 3967:Trappist the monk 3945:Trappist the monk 3923:Trappist the monk 3618: 3396:Trappist the monk 3307:Trappist the monk 3094:Trappist the monk 3004:Trappist the monk 2920:cite encyclopedia 2806:Trappist the monk 2749:Trappist the monk 2634:Trappist the monk 2470:with things like 2401:Trappist the monk 2200:Trappist the monk 2119:Trappist the monk 2115: 2114: 2049: 2048: 1950: 1949: 1822:Trappist the monk 1773:Trappist the monk 1710:Trappist the monk 1595:Trappist the monk 1434:Trappist the monk 1373: 1352: 1351: 1124:Trappist the monk 959:Trappist the monk 911:Trappist the monk 627:Trappist the monk 584:Trappist the monk 526:Trappist the monk 511:this conversation 481:...</abbr: --> 417:Trappist the monk 380:Close to the bone 372:Close to the Bone 311:Trappist the monk 287:In this case the 229: 228: 103: 102: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 5613: 5587: 5582: 5578: 5548: 5545: 5537: 5493: 5487: 5468: 5438: 5434: 5419: 5405: 5402: 5399: 5396: 5393: 5390: 5387: 5384: 5381: 5378: 5375: 5372: 5369: 5366: 5363: 5339: 5290: 5273: 5252: 5248: 5244: 5240: 5236: 5232: 5228: 5224: 5220: 5216: 5212: 5194: 5157: 5153: 5135: 5131: 5127: 5106: 5101: 5045: 4996: 4994: 4992: 4982: 4974: 4969: 4965: 4955: 4949: 4945: 4943: 4935: 4933: 4931: 4918: 4912: 4904: 4900: 4896: 4895:|xxx-url-access= 4886: 4880: 4876: 4870: 4865:has extra text ( 4864: 4860: 4858: 4850: 4848: 4846: 4830: 4824: 4811: 4807: 4803: 4799: 4798:|xxx-url-access= 4790:1945 NYT article 4787: 4783: 4779: 4642: 4614: 4611: 4608: 4605: 4602: 4599: 4596: 4593: 4590: 4587: 4584: 4581: 4578: 4575: 4564:of the problem. 4562: 4535: 4531: 4477: 4456: 4454: 4417: 4413: 4388: 4383: 4376: 4341: 4336: 4329: 4303: 4296: 4273: 4269: 4265: 4261: 4257: 4253: 4249: 4248:|doi-access=free 4245: 4241: 4231: 4224: 4218: 4214: 4210: 4206: 4173: 4118: 4068: 4064: 4060: 4056: 4052: 4048: 4044: 4040: 4036: 4032: 4006: 4002: 3987: 3983: 3981: 3970: 3873: 3869: 3858: 3854: 3847: 3816: 3805: 3801: 3797: 3767: 3747: 3744:detect et al in 3713: 3709: 3698: 3690: 3681: 3673: 3664: 3661: 3660: 3611: 3606: 3602: 3598: 3584: 3562: 3554: 3553: 3531: 3509: 3502: 3494: 3493: 3479: 3463: 3459: 3455: 3451: 3441: 3439: 3381: 3377: 3373: 3364: 3354: 3350: 3338: 3334: 3330: 3300: 3297:cite fossilworks 3285: 3283: 3282: 3267: 3235: 3233: 3232: 3211: 3176: 3166: 3126: 3112: 3109: 3088: 3084: 3071: 3061: 3057: 3053: 3031: 3027:to show that. -- 2998: 2997: 2996:{{cite journal}} 2992: 2991: 2986: 2985: 2980: 2979: 2969: 2968: 2967:{{cite journal}} 2963: 2962: 2957: 2956: 2951: 2950: 2939: 2931: 2923: 2915: 2907: 2899: 2891: 2883: 2875: 2867: 2859: 2849: 2838: 2831: 2794: 2786: 2775: 2768: 2736: 2728: 2727: 2722: 2714: 2710: 2706: 2698: 2694: 2690: 2686: 2677: 2661: 2657: 2653: 2616: 2607: 2603: 2599: 2589: 2576: 2572: 2562: 2545: 2542:timeout, showed 2540: 2522: 2505: 2501: 2497: 2493: 2489: 2477: 2473: 2469: 2457: 2449: 2438: 2434: 2430: 2423: 2419: 2395: 2394: 2389: 2381: 2377: 2373: 2369: 2365: 2361: 2357: 2353: 2349: 2348: 2343: 2342: 2337: 2333: 2321: 2312: 2306: 2305: 2300: 2264: 2248: 2244: 2240: 2232: 2228: 2224: 2220: 2216: 2194: 2188: 2169: 2167: 2152: 2148: 2140: 2111: 2105: 2092: 2086: 2073: 2068:|article=Article 2057: 2045: 2039: 2035: 2031: 2029: 2021: 2007: 2001: 1997: 1993: 1991: 1983: 1969: 1966:|article=Article 1955: 1946: 1940: 1935: 1933: 1925: 1908: 1902: 1897: 1895: 1887: 1870: 1865:|article=Article 1854: 1847: 1846:|xxx-url-access= 1812: 1738: 1697: 1676: 1670: 1656: 1650: 1643: 1636: 1616: 1577: 1565: 1535: 1532: 1529: 1526: 1524:))</span: --> 1519: 1516: 1513: 1510: 1507: 1505:))</span: --> 1500: 1489: 1485: 1461: 1457: 1369: 1343: 1339: 1325: 1324: 1318: 1290:Vancouver system 1273: 1247: 1244: 1217: 1213: 1163: 1144: 995:fewer characters 953: 945: 897: 893: 889: 885: 877: 869: 780: 776: 764: 760: 720: 697: 694:I don't see how 675: 664: 646: 642: 603: 559: 516: 508: 498: 482: 473: 469: 454: 437: 398: 390: 364: 360: 356: 326: 305: 304: 299: 271: 263: 259: 240: 234: 225: 219: 211: 198: 192: 184: 171: 153: 146: 142: 138: 134: 130: 124: 113: 81: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 5621: 5620: 5616: 5615: 5614: 5612: 5611: 5610: 5593: 5543: 5540: 5535: 5501: 5489: 5481: 5466: 5436: 5432: 5417: 5407: 5406: 5403: 5400: 5397: 5394: 5391: 5388: 5385: 5383:getCurrentTitle 5382: 5379: 5376: 5373: 5370: 5367: 5364: 5361: 5337: 5318: 5250: 5246: 5242: 5238: 5234: 5230: 5226: 5210: 5133: 5129: 5084:Help:CS1 errors 5039: 4990: 4988: 4977: 4972: 4946: 4936: 4929: 4927: 4921: 4916: 4906: 4872: 4861: 4851: 4844: 4842: 4833: 4828: 4780:which replaced 4775: 4719: 4640: 4616: 4615: 4612: 4609: 4606: 4603: 4600: 4597: 4595:getCurrentTitle 4594: 4591: 4588: 4585: 4582: 4579: 4576: 4573: 4556: 4534:get_date_format 4533: 4529: 4475: 4458: 4452: 4450: 4443: 4406:the old system. 4386: 4379: 4372: 4339: 4332: 4325: 4321: 4299: 4294: 4271: 4267: 4250:and the like. 4227: 4222: 4167: 4112: 3996: 3985: 3979: 3964: 3961: 3871: 3868:|displayauthors 3844:allow numbered 3765: 3692: 3675: 3667: 3662: 3658: 3628: 3617: 3563: 3560: 3558: 3551: 3547: 3505: 3498: 3491: 3490: 3437: 3430: 3379: 3375: 3371: 3356: 3294: 3280: 3278: 3270: 3265: 3230: 3228: 3214: 3209: 3168: 3157:Original Source 3118: 3063: 3029: 2995: 2994: 2989: 2988: 2983: 2982: 2977: 2976: 2966: 2965: 2960: 2959: 2954: 2953: 2948: 2947: 2933: 2925: 2917: 2909: 2901: 2893: 2885: 2877: 2869: 2861: 2853: 2847: 2834: 2827: 2788: 2771: 2764: 2730: 2725: 2724: 2716: 2700: 2619:feature request 2595: 2451: 2443: 2392: 2391: 2372:|encyclopaedia= 2346: 2345: 2340: 2339: 2303: 2302: 2294: 2190: 2165: 2158: 2150: 2146: 2136: 2134: 2100: 2081: 2071: 2069: 2067: 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