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2504:, I've started addressing some of these, and it seemed helpful to "tick" them off in your bulleted list above -- if that wasn't appropriate, please let me know and I'll track my progress another way. I also raised a question about her name. I think Yamakawa Sutematsu is her most common name, but it still feels odd to call her Yamakawa in the sections after she is married. And, the article is named Ōyama Sutematsu! So perhaps it should call her Ōyama throughout...??
3219:, I don’t understand why you are changing the lead to say she was one of six girls sent on the Iwakura Mission. The lead is meant to summarize the information cited in the body of the article, and the body of the article clearly states with citations that there were five girls. We even have a photo of the five of them! Can you explain why you think your change is more accurate? With sources that can be used to revise the body of the article if needed?
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Hm, I think the second instance of "Japanese" in ALT2 is necessary -- she could have been sponsored by the
American government, for example -- but I think there are other ways to improve the wording. I've tried a few others below but I think there are diminishing returns for continuing to fiddle with
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Oh, I see I misunderstood a bit too and I should have clarified my point. The article name should ideally be the name she lived her life with till her death, so that's correct. When you start with the main text, you start with her full name at birth and refer to her by her maiden surname till we come
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But I am still not entirely sure how to proceed. I think her most common name is
Yamakawa Sutematsu -- but it feels odd to call her Yamakawa in the sections after her marriage. It also makes me question whether the article itself should be renamed to Yamakawa instead of Ōyama. Would you advise that I
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Welcome to DYK! New enough promotion of a GA. QPQ exempt. Image in public domain and allowed for use. One thing: you must have a citation in the article at the sentence that justifies your hook claim. For ALT0 (the main hook), there is no citation on the accompanying sentence. ALT1 is fine (assuming
1081:
This information seems clearly implied by the fact that
Shigekata seems to have died before Sutematsu's birth, and that Hiroshi is making decisions on behalf of the whole family (and later the whole clan) by the time of the Boshin war, but I really can't find any reliable sourcing that clarifies the
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Japanese, and spent several months after her return to Japan struggling to communicate. I suppose I could try to find the page number to add that clarification to the article. I personally find this one of the interesting contradictions inherent in the mission she was sent on, that in order for her
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This is what I have editors advise to do generally, to avoid the repetitive look. Anyway it is understood that if one (/more) source is mentioned after a particular bunch of lines, then the source supports those facts. I agree with the trouble while rearranging things, I have faced that myself, but
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Any subject who has had their surname changed should be referred to by their most commonly used name. If their most commonly used name does include their prior surname, and you're discussing a period of their life before the surname change, refer to them by their prior surname. In other words, when
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I'm going to need to look beyond Nimura for the sourcing here, which is why I've delayed. I also want to make a note for myself here to find more definitive sourcing for her birth name -- the sources I've seen say she was named Sakiko at birth, but another editor changed it to Saki in the lead, and
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For now I've added what I could find about their courtship. Oddly, Nimura (her main biographer) doesn't say anything about the first proposal or how they met. They don't seem to have known each other well even at the second proposal, so he might have proposed before they even really met. I'll keep
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The current draft of the article says she was born
Yamakawa Saki (山川 さき) on March 16, 1860, but there is no citation for that information. The only source I've found which mentions a birth date and name is Nimura's book, which says her first name was Sakiko and the birthday was February 24. I am
2614:
I have finally addressed all of your points above! Many thanks for your patience while I have poked along with this article, and all of your attention and feedback. I think it has really improved! Would you be comfortable assessing it as a "Good
Article"? Or do you see any further issues?
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He's referred to by his last name or his full name everywhere, no more uses of just the first name. I think this makes some of the paragraphs about their children and marriage sound a little weird (repeating both full names a lot) but I couldn't find a more elegant way to write them.
1980:→ make a separate line by removing "and", say "The second character (松, matsu) means pine, or one from among Three Friends of Winter, suggesting she wished her daughter good luck (on her voyage/travel?)" I feel this clarifies better that the pine signifies good luck.
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to fully learn
American ways she was intentionally deprived of Japanese knowledge (eg making sure she lived separately from Shige so they couldn't speak Japanese at home) with the seemingly-predictable outcome that life in Japan was initially very difficult for her.
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Do you think this is mandatory? I can see how it is less visually appealing to repeat refs, but in the long term I think it is useful for each sentence to have its own ref, so that the sourcing doesn't get lost or ambiguous if the paragraph changes.
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Since Iwao is his first name, shouldn't he be Ōyama? I call him "Ōyama Iwao" a lot to disambiguate him from Ōyama
Sutematsu. I guess the full picture of what to call him will be clearer after Sutematsu's name is consistent throughout the article.
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so that the text does not get sandwiched between them and headings don't get pushed to the right. After all the work we have done here, the article is now ready for promotion :) I will just put this nice link over here
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Citations shouldn't be in the lead unless there is a controversial claim, here it may be the fact that she was the first
Japanese lady to get a degree. And all facts of the lead must be mentioned in the article's main
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I went through and "commented out" any repeated refs. That way the article doesn't look cluttered, but if someone is editing the paragraph they can still see the sources that support each individual statement.
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Source: "his military activity included serving as an artilleryman during the bombardment of
Yamakawa's hometown of Aizu. He later liked to joke that Yamakawa had made the bullet which struck him during that
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The following don't seem like good suggestions for "further reading" to the general encyclopedia audience, but they may be worth investigating to improve the article, so I am moving them from there to here.
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But I am happy with any hook which seems interesting to someone who isn't already familiar with Ōyama. Let me know if there is anything else I should do for this nomination, and thank you for reviewing it!
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I was wondering if the first line of the lead could shorten the part in the brackets as it seems a bit too long till we get to the end of it.. may be omit a few bits of info already visible in the infobox
2481:, thank you so much for these comments! I will work to improve the article based on your feedback over the next little while (perhaps a week or two), and let you know when it is ready for another look.
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Nimura's biography indicates that
Sutematsu quickly forgot how to read and write Japanese once Japanese texts were no longer available to her; she in fact only barely retained the ability to
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changed the Japanese too; I think they have access to some kinds of Japanese-language materials that I don't. So maybe my English sources are mistaken somehow, and other sources can clarify.
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Thanks for all your efforts, the article looks excellent now. Though this is not a must for GA, I would recommend removing a few images and aligning most to the right per
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I did my best with this, though there's some unsourced material added by another editor (about the good luck of the pine motif) which I'm not sure if I should remove.
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discussing the early lives of Hillary and Bill Clinton, use "Rodham met Clinton while they were students at Yale", referring to Hillary using her then-current surname.
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In places where a certain ref is used to support a set of consecutive lines, you can put it just at the end of the last line instead of putting it for every line.
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Looked at the article length again.. the lead should be proportionately long, which means at least two good paragraphs including all major points of the article (
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Perhaps removing the second instance of "Japanese" from ALT2 would improve the flow and remove redundancy. ALT0/ALT2/etc. are okay AGF with the added citation.
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Thank you! It is addressed now. The detail on their departure is from p 62 of Nimura. Looking at these again the first one is maybe "hookier" if worded like so:
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After her first mention by full name in the lead and main text, call her any one of these names consistently throughout the article "Yamakawa" or "Sakiko"
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So sorry for the delay.. I got really busy with a few articles. Well-written article and on a very interesting topic too :) Here are all my comments:
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categories. You can list it yourself wherever you think appropriate, just make sure the talk page GA template mentions the right category. Cheers,
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Sourcing: Sourcing is decent and reliable with well-formatted citations, though the ISBN is needed for the 2015 book and the date should be mmddyy.
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Good job so far :) No problem with the ticks, I think they are a great way of marking things off. I have addressed the name point above. Cheers,
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Their father Yamakawa Shigekata died in 1860, the year of Yamakawa Sakiko's birth, and her eldest brother Hiroshi became head of their family.
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that I came across a few days back.. it made me so happy that I came to know about this remarkable lady from your awesome article. Well done!
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I would like some brief details of how she got selected for the Iwakura Mission, especially as she made it after a very tough life and a war.
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Source: "In December 1871, when she was eleven years old, Yamakawa was sent to the United States for study, as part of the Iwakura Mission."
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Hmm I see. I, like many others, clearly have difficulty understanding Japanese names :) No problem, call him by the full name consistently.
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Thank you, that's much better. A few things though. The paragraph should end with an inline citation for the pine motif part. In this part:
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Excellent job! Just a few things. "Japanese woman" is repeated in the first line, and it would be good to include the year of the siege.
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253:, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Knowledge (XXG)'s articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
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says "The most common use of boldface is to highlight the first occurrence of the title word/phrase of the article in the lead section".
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wished her good luck by choosing the second character of the new name meaning pine (松, matsu), or one from among Three Friends of Winter
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updating the article to that information for now, but welcome additional sourcing to explain or resolve the conflicting information.
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Oh, I can't figure out how to add it to the nomination now, but there are several really interesting images of Ōyama, such as
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and related articles on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Indeed, my apologies -- got sidetracked by some other shiny editing... I will likely make some more progress this weekend.
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A pronoun doesn't look nice when you start an article (main text). Take her full name at birth and say "X was born on ..."
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to her married life. From there we use her new surname, which is the one in the article title. I hope it is clear now :)
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I've addressed this in a basic way by removing the bolding from throughout the article, and will also try to follow
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I consulted a Japanese-speaking friend and I am now happy with how the article treats the childhood nickname Saki.
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good faith on the offline source) as it has citations there, but I want you to also be able to fix ALT0 first.
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The first pic in gallery could do with some description like when the photo is from, similar to the other pics
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Glad you asked about this! I find it really interesting that they had so much trouble finding girls to send.
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There is a bunch of duplinks. You can view them using this tool and link the items only on first mention.
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I've further refined how this is written, and found a source for the "three friends of winter" part.
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This is a redlink, may be add where it is in the present day to give a non-Japanese reader an idea?
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timing or does more than imply these things. So, for now, I have simply removed this sentence.
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Thanks, I was really interested to see more about this beautiful initiative in the article :)
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Bacon will do as she was mentioned just a para before. Call her Bacon consistently afterwards
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No problem, but this needs to be done soon if this has to pass. Try contacting the editor.
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which could be nice to include. (Sorry, I'm new to DYK and only just learning the ropes!)
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Regarding the use of boldface throughout the article wherever new names crop up, the
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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below.
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Inline citations missing for the following, which can make these appear unsourced:
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One more point, See also should only have links not already included in the text.
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2268:Ōyama Iwao should probably be called Iwao consistently after the first mention
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Further reading and external links usually come after References in an article
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This invasion marked the beginning of the Battle of Aizu, a monthlong siege.
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I've gone through and made sure she is called Yamakawa or Oyama throughout.
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3164:...did not attend school, but was taught to read and write at home...
1976:"for" should be removed. I also thought of a better rephrase for this:
2729:), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page.
261:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
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was eleven years old when the Japanese government sent her on the
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I think the lead is now a good reflection of the article overall.
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Additional note: I am not sure where to list this article in the
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Any details of how he came across her or the first proposal?
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I added the image. Please feel free to change the caption.
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A fact from this article was featured on Knowledge (XXG)'s
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I think I've addressed this with my rewrite of the lead.
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to receive an American education on behalf of Japan?
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to receive an American education on behalf of Japan?
2807:to receive a Western education on behalf of Japan?
668:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
561:: Participate in Japan-related deletion discussions.
367:. Current time in Japan: 10:17, September 17, 2024 (
344:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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to receive an American education on behalf of Japan?
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were moved to New Haven, Connecticut. In New Heaven
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and died of related pneumonia on February 18, 1919.
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980:No dablinks, broken external links, copyvio issues
2819:the first Japanese woman to earn a college degree
359:, where you can join the project, participate in
123:Template:Did you know nominations/Ōyama Sutematsu
3107:was eleven years old when she was sent with the
110:was eleven years old when she was sent with the
45:. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
1974:while awaiting for (待つ, matsu) her safe return
1940:("thrown-away pine tree");.the mother gave up
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2731:No further edits should be made to this page
792:. Vol. Vol. XXVII, July 1895, No.1. Boston:
2131:Yamakawa graduated with from Vassar College
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3298:Mid-importance Women's History articles
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1835:to the newly-created Tonami District
923:Hi, I will post my comments soon :)
685:Template:WikiProject Women's History
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3124:with preference for ALT1 or ALT4.
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41:. If you can improve it further,
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3118:I'd prefer ALT4 of those two.
2361:Ōyama's old friend Alice Bacon
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1942:Some text cleanup needed here
676:and see a list of open tasks.
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1536:She was born Yamakawa Sakiko
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259:contribute to the discussion
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665:WikiProject Women's History
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492:Featured content candidates
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790:The Heathen Woman's Friend
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1621:05:35, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
1567:04:49, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
1521:20:08, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
1491:17:46, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
1461:06:22, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
1432:05:35, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
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1316:09:40, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
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1012:04:49, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
894:Talk:Ōyama Sutematsu/GA1
688:Women's History articles
589:Japanese Knowledge (XXG)
529:Good article nominations
94:column on 15 July 2020 (
2723:the article's talk page
2704:Did you know nomination
2496:01:19, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
970:04:04, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
788:"Three Japanese Girls."
3157:Spot the contradiction
1590:that's relevant here,
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400:Japan-related articles
183:This article is rated
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3253:History good articles
2856:). Self-nominated at
725:Birth name & date
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250:WikiProject Biography
187:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
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33:History good articles
750:Noting other sources
587:an article from the
569:Japan-related stubs.
361:relevant discussions
776:Hotta, Eri (2013).
599:unassessed articles
365:lists of open tasks
355:, please visit the
1324:Prose and coverage
575:requested articles
566:Improve and expand
558:Pages for Deletion
542:Godzilla Minus One
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3172:80.95.85.247
3166:— Preceding
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876:Instructions
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535:Vinland Saga
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357:project page
345:
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333:Japan portal
248:
195:WikiProjects
156:
105:
102:Did you know
101:
91:Did you know
89:
81:
80:A fact from
52:
43:please do so
31:
30:
26:
1588:MOS:SURNAME
890:transcluded
537:(TV series)
471:Peer review
353:participate
161:section on
158:On this day
96:check views
3242:Categories
3217:CadnTheadn
3105:(pictured)
3098::... that
3086:(pictured)
3079::... that
2985:(pictured)
2978::... that
2825:married a
2823:(pictured)
2816::... that
2801:(pictured)
2474:Discussion
2046:WP:MOSBOLD
1413:WP:MOSLEAD
1330:alongside?
843:Authorship
829:GA toolbox
778:Japan 1941
363:, and see
37:under the
2794:... that
2181:looking.
902:Reviewer:
866:Templates
857:Reviewing
822:GA Review
802:cite book
584:translate
268:Biography
214:Biography
153:Main Page
104:... that
86:Main Page
3194:~ oulfis
3168:unsigned
3056:~ oulfis
3000:~ oulfis
2874:~ oulfis
2869:this one
2832:battle."
2740:promoted
2618:~ oulfis
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1586:-- it's
1555:~ oulfis
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1000:~ oulfis
944:contribs
915:contribs
871:Criteria
810:|volume=
758:~ oulfis
733:~ oulfis
509:Pictures
502:Articles
185:GA-class
47:reassess
2827:general
2764:Comment
2744:Yoninah
975:General
706:on the
519:: None
512:: None
505:: None
445:history
418:on the
382:Refresh
155:in the
88:in the
3126:Raymie
3048:Raymie
3025:Raymie
3019:Oulfis
2948:Raymie
2941:Oulfis
2850:Oulfis
2676:Sainsf
2646:Sainsf
2610:Sainsf
2584:Sainsf
2558:Sainsf
2550:Oulfis
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2303:Sainsf
2208:Sainsf
1984:Sainsf
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1473:Sainsf
1419:Sainsf
1230:Sainsf
957:Sainsf
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596:Assess
482:: None
474:: None
191:scale.
54:Review
3188:speak
2670:WP:GA
2133:Typo?
892:from
581:Help
516:Lists
455:purge
450:watch
391:Japan
373:Reiwa
347:Japan
302:Japan
3230:talk
3202:talk
3176:talk
3096:ALT4
3077:ALT3
3064:talk
3008:talk
2976:ALT2
2910:XAЯA
2900:ARAX
2882:talk
2854:talk
2814:ALT1
2768:view
2748:talk
2626:talk
2599:talk
2515:talk
2492:talk
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1394:talk
1369:body
1356:talk
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1132:talk
1093:talk
1045:talk
1008:talk
938:talk
929:ains
909:talk
814:help
766:talk
741:talk
547:Add
440:edit
410:High
257:and
3222:~ L
2766:or
2742:by
2725:or
698:Mid
375:6)
369:JST
49:it.
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1988:·
1958:(
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