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agencies representing His
Holiness the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government in Exile." They're official agencies of both the Dalai Lama and the CTA. I believe the line in the article that you are referencing was added by an editor who may have been confused by the status of the Office of Tibet. The Offices are charged with educating the (non-Tibetan) public about issues in Tibet's status and history, so it seems quite reasonable to expect that the CTA's interpretation of events that occurred before its creation would be distributed via the Office of Tibet. Really, I think that the line in the article that indicates that there may be disagreement between this account and the Dalai Lama or the CTA should be removed- it cites the front pages of the Dalai Lama and the CTA as a source, but in neither place is there any indication that they differ from the Office's account. My question would be: since the Office is an official agency of both the Dalai Lama and the CTA, and the Office is publishing an account of the 1959 events, what reason is there to believe that this account differs from what you would hear from the CTA or the Dalai Lama? The Office exists specifically to disseminate this sort of information on behalf of the Dalai Lama and the CTA. It should, however, be balanced with reports from the PRC of what happened during this period, or any international observers. I think more than NPOV, the single-sourcing is the issue. That's largely my fault- I had quick access to the Office's account, but couldn't quickly find other good chronologies on the web. This article was pitiful before the Office chronology was added, so it seemed like a good idea to get at least an outline of the events up given the numerous references to 1959 that have been made in the media in light of recent events in Tibet. What I would really like to see is a chronology from the PRC that parallels the Tibetan account- that would provide the best contrast in terms of the interpretation of these events. Do you have links to something like this? --
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will resurrect itself at some point, but I don't think that there should be any question that the Office of Tibet should be regarded as part of the government, and that it's views on the uprising don't differ significantly from those of other parts of the government- at least from the OOT and CTA accounts, there's no reason to think so. I'm fine with identifying the elements from the OOT chronology as being specific to the OOT and not another body, but I don't think that the text should suggest that the OOT account differs from the rest of the government when we don't have indications that this is the case. --
1382:"Prior to the PLA invasion, relations between Lhasa and the Khampa chieftains had deteriorated, although the Khampa remained spiritually loyal to the Dalai Lama throughout. Because of these strained relations, the Khampa had actually assisted the Chinese in their initial invasion, before becoming the guerrilla resistance they are now known for," with a new source from the Carnegie Council for Ethics in International Affairs (actually a really great read on the subject if you have the time).
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but not one I am familiar with. Could someone explain why supporting the theocratic rights of aristocrats to own people and control the labor of serfs is "freedom"? Also, it would be worth noting what foreign powers financially and materially supported the
Tibetan guerillas. Britain and the American CIA are known to have paid and supported much of this apparatus. Is there are reason this is not included in the discussions here?
1376:"Before the Communist takeover, the relationship between the Khampa and the Dalai Lama's Government had deteriorated badly. As a result, the Khampa were indifferent to the initial Communist assault on Chamdo. The PLA had entered Kham without much opposition from local Khampas. The relationship between the Khampa and the Tibetan Dalai Lama government in Lhasa was extremely poor at the time."
408:, clear states that "if no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Knowledge (XXG) should not have an article on it." It also states that "articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." I realize that policies are to be followed with discretion, but in this case, the violation seems much too blatant.
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incident and be subjected to as questionable sources. just because OOT is part of CTA doesn't mean they only present official view, many other agency are known to carried rival views as well. one well known example is the CIA factbook which description of nations doesn't represent the official view of the USA.
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The "Lhasa
Rebellion" section is rife with obvious NPOV bs statements. It sounds like one of rabid propaganda pieces written by pro-lama internet trolls. Take this statement: "Monks and nuns were forced to have sex with each other and forcibly renounce their celibacy vows." Then "After torture, these
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I never said that the OOT, the CTA, and the Dalai Lama hold different positions. The original references were to the OOT, and there were no explanation why the text claimed sources other than the OOT. Even if they have the same account, the citations and the references should be very clear about what
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This had a pretty large effect on Tibet. It marked the end of rule by the Dalai Lama’s government and the Dalai Lama’s presence in Tibet, and the loss of a great deal of
Tibetan autonomy and the beginning of more direct rule by the Central Government. It also resulted in the beginning in Political
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We should work to include notes that the "socialist reforms" were often only democratic reforms, such as abolishing the serfdom, secularism and ending the privileged and theocratic aristocracy. Also, to discuss "freedom fighters" supporting a serfdom is perhaps a novel meaning of the word "freedom",
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There's quit a bit of coverage of the uprising in "The Dragon in the Land of Snows". Tsering Shakya is a
Tibetan exile, but doesn't seem to have any connection with the government in exile- his work seems to be in the capacity of a scholar, rather than activist. I had a copy of the book a week or
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from dalailama.com refers to the "office of the
Representative of His Holiness the Dalai Lama (also known as the Office of Tibet) in their region" regarding contacting the Dalai Lama, which does indicate that the Office of Tibet acts as a representative of the Dalai Lama. Hopefully the CTA website
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It was said that a
Tibetan monk, who worked with the Communists as a member of the Preparatory Committee of the Tibetan Autonomous Region, was killed and his body was dragged by a horse in front of the crowd for two kilometers. I ask someone familiar with the events to verify this, who this person
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Almost the entire article relies on a single account by the "Office of Tibet, London", which, according to the article, is not even the view of the CTA. I question the reliablility of that source. Ideally, the article should balance the views of the CTA and the
Chinese government, being the most
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This repeated statement has no value. One of the standard criticisms of
Grunfeld's work is that he always tries to cast doubt on sources which are critical of the Chinese government, while he accepts blindly everything coming from that government. "The veracity of such a claim is difficult to
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can we confirm this OOT account is the sole and official CTA view of the incident? and to remove references to it being an account of OOT but that of the CTA release via OOT? if the views is not the official stance, it should be critically reworded as being unrelated to the stance of CTA on the
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Aside from dubious bs statements in itself. The supposed citation comes from a book that is written by CIA operative "who's a personal friend" with the Dalai Lama, who actively participated in training fighters in the violent uprising. NPOV much? Why don't these people cite accounts written by
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there's a slight difference between the casualty estimates from the Office's account and the accounts on the CTA site- 86000 vs. 87000. The accounts I've linked to are published by the CTA Department of
Information and International Relations; I would call the OOT account and the DIIR account
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The Office of Tibet is described in the section on the structure of the Tibetan Government in Exile: "The CTA also maintains Offices of Tibet in New Delhi, New York, Tokyo, London, Kathmandu, Geneva, Moscow, Budapest, Paris, Canberra and Washington, D.C. These Offices of Tibet are the official
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If certain sources state numbers you can reckon on on just one fact: that these particular sources are not reliable. The matter of fact is that nobody knows. Whether you state in between which numbers the estimations of several parties are, or it should be left away completely. Something like
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the version from the Google cache. Not sure what you mean about internal disagreements; the articles you link to refer to differences of opinion within the Tibetan exile community over current tactics, rather than indicating that 1) the OOT is not part of the government, or that 2) they have
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The first paragraph in this section is mostly a duplication of information in the following paragraphs. It's also out of order, chronologically, in the section. The text in this paragraph, and/or the citations, should be incorporated into subsequent paragraphs as needed. --
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The CTA also maintains Offices of Tibet in New Delhi, New York, Tokyo, London, Kathmandu, Geneva, Moscow, Budapest, Paris, Canberra and Washington, D.C. These Offices of Tibet are the official agencies representing His Holiness the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government in
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I was unable to change the importance in the Tibet and China infoboxes independently. Although the topic is very important for Tibet, in the broader context of China, it may be less important. Is it possible to show top-importance for WP:Tibet and mid-importance for
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Tibet of religious suppression and human rights abuses by occupying (or Central Government if you prefer) forces. Or from the perspective of the Central Government, governing the TAR become significantly more difficult and involved, and remains so 50+ years later.
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wrote a book about his support for Uyghur, Mongol and Tibetan separatists, he encouraged the Soviet Union to try to wage war against China to allegedly "free" those nationalities from China's rule, claiming that China was an "empire" and not a state.
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The casualty number in the info box should be what Tibet exile government claims for the whole armed struggle lasted from 1956-1962. This article seems only mentions about the incident in Lhasa, which is only a small part of the action.
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It should be noted that tibet is actually bigger than it is shown to be on the current map of china. Tibet, at its largest point, occupied all of Xingxang Autonamous region, and also a large area of the surrounding Autonamous regions.
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is not working, so either some one else or I will have to follow up on that. I will replace my line for the time being. If eventually you could make the claim that such and such is the CTA's account, we'll just change the relevant
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is taken from the OOT London web site; I expect something similar from the Dalai Lama or from the CTA, not the OOT itself, especially since internal disagreements have been reported by third-party, albeit not the most well known
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so ago and was hoping to add some additional references, but it was recalled to the library before I had a chance. There are enough books on Tibetan history that it should be possible to add some of them as references. --
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I wrote "may be different" because, at least at the time, I could not find any account offered by the CTA, nor any by the Dalai Lama. To those of you who think otherwise, thank you for posting your arguments. Now, the
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http://books.google.com.au/books?id=FwaJCAU8mr8C&pg=PA71&dq=rapga+chinese&hl=en&ei=WI_FTdqrJoiugQeJxvnKBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
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There was a statement on the CTA site stating that the OOT was an official representative of the Dalai Lama and the CTA; unfortunately, the entire tibet.net site seems to be down at the moment.
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The source section seems to have been left in quite a mess, and a few of the citations seem unnecessarily long. Any suggestions on how we can clean this up and work toward a more clean article?
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besides anti China propaganda due to the sino soviet split, the Soviet Union did have strategic interests in Tibet and attempted to make inroads against the British during 1912-1948.
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All Knowledge (XXG) articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias,
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EDIT: After further research, even the said page on the book itself contains contains no such accounts to support these ridiculous claims. Look it up with google books yourself ("
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I fail to see how two 1959 photos from the Associated Press agency can be used in Knowledge (XXG) under the (false) pretext of their being in the public domain in China. --
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because its term of copyright has expired there. According to copyright laws of the People's Republic of China (with legal jurisdiction in the mainland only, excluding
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During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
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During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
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During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
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During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
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This page gives no suggestions as to the reasons for the uprising. The only suggestion as to the cause is the Camp Hale section - and this is hardly the whole story.
616:), it may be wise to introduce him with an article here on English Knowledge (XXG). I would rather call him a communist than a sinologist. In fact, according to
224:. The chronology contains fewer details than the Office of Tibet account, but otherwise they seem to correspond. The only difference that I've seen is that
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accounts from two different branches of the CTA, but as the accounts don't really differ at all, there's very little to distinguish between them. --
140:"3月10日是达赖集团所谓的“西藏起义抗暴纪念日”。1959年的这一天，达赖集团在拉萨发动全面的武装叛乱，打砸抢烧，无恶不作，叛乱分子杀死西藏自治区筹备委员会委员、堪穷（四名僧官）帕巴拉·索朗降措，并将他鞭马拖尸“示众”达两公里，惨不忍睹。对达赖集团而言，3月10日本身就是一个呼唤暴力的日子。"
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he is even voluntarily member of the Communist Party. In case of an article on him, I wouldn't forget a section called 'criticism'. Regards,
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men and women were often killed." The heck? Yeah right, after that they were commanded to smash babies and torture puppies I'm sure.
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This will replace the preceding U.S. copyright notification with a nomination for this image to be moved to the Wikimedia Commons.
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It should be noted that this page amy be considered highly controversial, and should probably be closely watched for vandalism.
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I changed the beginning of the second paragraph of the "Armed resistance in east Tibet" section from the previously uncited:
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Can someone please find a source talking about Soviet involvement in the rebellion? It would save a lot of trouble for me.
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In my previous comment, "The original references ... other than the OOT", I was referring to the OOT references, but later
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If the media is in the public domain in both China and the United States, it may be transferred to the Wikimedia Commons.
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If the image is not in the public domain in the United States, in addition to the license tag for its status in China
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Auschwitz prison guards for information on Jewish human rights then? I'm sure these accounts won't be biased at all.
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It was not of the party but of the US-China Peoples Friendship Association as I see now. I'm sorry for the mistake.
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You have a point. I don't have much experience with copyright issues, but as far as I can make out, it looks like
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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an appropriate fair use license and rationale should be provided, or the image should be proposed for deletion
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which summarizes what primary Chinese sources say. Knowledge (XXG) articles are supposed to be written using
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Almost the entire article is based on sources from the parties involved. The English Knowledge (XXG) policy,
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I don't think any government sources should be used either when the article is about the said government(s).
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The American writer is using "captured Chinese sources", as the sentence states. The American source is a
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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of the text that had changed "Office of Tibet, London" in one place into "Tibetan Government in Exile".
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the actual source is. Perhaps I should have come up with a less misleading line for my edit. The CTA's
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significant points of view on the subject. Neither view is difficult to find, even on the internet. --
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is, what he did, and what happened that day on March 10th, 1959, and edit it into this wiki article.
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OK, both the Dalai Lama and the CTA web site state that the OOT is representative of the Dalai Lama.
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web site does not mention the CTA nor any OOT as representatives of the Dalai Lama. Clay's quote,
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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if it entered the public domain in China prior to 1996 (PRC only) or 2002 (ROC only) - see
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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http://books.google.com/books?id=cEdQ1IuJFH4C&pg=PA172#v=onepage&q&f=false
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http://books.google.com/books?id=ZavAkGUNdSkC&pg=PA175#v=onepage&q&f=false
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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Why were you looking at page 71 when the citation clearly points to page 134?
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when, after that date, its copyright term expires in accordance with U.S. law.
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509:, PLA killed 86,000 Tibetans the days after the Dalai Lama's flight.
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all significant views that have been published by reliable sources
505:: "This number might however be underestimated since according to
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Should this even be in here? The video on YouTube is private.
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590:"thousands until tens of thousands" might be a solution too.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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on 2011-06-04 18:46:28, Socket Error: 'getaddrinfo failed'
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on 2011-05-25 03:39:12, Socket Error: 'getaddrinfo failed'
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1070://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:1959_Tibetan_uprising/Archive_1
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verify" is nothing more than a rhetorical device here.
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http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2008-03-30/155315256146.shtml
548:"The veracity of such a claim is difficult to verify"
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http://www.chushigangdruk.org/history/history05.html
1288:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
512:". But Ref turns out to be an book written by an
298:different interpretations of the 1959 uprising.
1274:This message was posted before February 2018.
869:Changing importance from mid to top in WPTIBET
788:http://www.savetibet.org/campaigns/pl/10th.php
339:) 15:33, 14 April 2008 (UTC)(corrections made
833:http://www.buddhistethics.org/6/mills991.html
652:Good idea, thanks for the tip and the links.
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275:At this moment, the CTA link and reference
1246:http://www.tibet.com/Status/10march59.html
743:http://www.tibet.com/Status/10march59.html
698:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOhDBo6x2ZY
392:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOhDBo6x2ZY
1218:I have just modified 2 external links on
44:Do not edit the contents of this page.
1263:to let others know (documentation at
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803:on 2011-06-04 18:46:09, 404 Not Found
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706:on 2011-05-25 03:39:12, 404 Not Found
220:Here's a source from the CTA itself:
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1092:NOT necessarily in the public domain
1102:Knowledge (XXG):Non-U.S. copyrights
396:DonSlice 17:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
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1222:. Please take a moment to review
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438:Let's wait and see what happens.
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1234:Corrected formatting/usage for
222:Tibet: Proving Truth From Facts
1369:Minor edit and source addition
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920:"). Farking Knowledge (XXG).
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992:is the place to report it.--
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132:In the Xinhua news article:
1006:I think you are both wrong.
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1215:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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18:Talk:1959 Tibetan uprising
1419:"Lhasa Rebellion" section
1178:Victor Louis (journalist)
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1023:This image is now in the
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327:can now be compared with
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456:Reasons for the uprising
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1211:External links modified
969:Associated Press photos
1347:Sources of the article
331:of the Dalai Lama/OOT.
1220:1959 Tibetan uprising
846:1959 Tibetan uprising
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801:1959 Tibetan uprising
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704:1959 Tibetan uprising
42:of past discussions.
1286:regular verification
1172:Soviet empire thesis
497:Mistake of reference
1400:Soviet Involvement?
1276:After February 2018
1255:parameter below to
904:NPOV and propaganda
1330:InternetArchiveBot
1281:InternetArchiveBot
1157:is quite clear. --
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922:
906:
871:
826:
781:
736:
691:
550:
518:206.165.101.124
507:Chinese sources
499:
458:
402:
386:
168:
152:166.134.197.174
115:
113:Casualty number
100:Politicalnerd08
94:
79:Politicalnerd08
72:
59:
30:
22:
21:
20:
12:
11:
5:
1446:
1444:
1427:John Broughton
1420:
1417:
1401:
1398:
1370:
1367:
1348:
1345:
1324:
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1316:
1249:
1248:
1240:Added archive
1238:
1212:
1209:
1173:
1170:
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1111:
1110:
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1105:
1087:
1075:
1074:
1058:
1048:
1047:
1020:
1010:
1009:
1008:
1007:
970:
967:
905:
902:
870:
867:
852:
851:
850:
849:
842:
825:
822:
807:
806:
805:
804:
797:
780:
777:
762:
761:
760:
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752:
735:
732:
717:
716:
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714:
707:
690:
687:
673:
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665:
664:
650:
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648:
549:
546:
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544:
498:
495:
484:69.114.165.204
468:138.37.250.195
457:
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398:
385:
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352:
267:
261:
246:
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200:
199:
173:PalaceGuard008
167:
164:
114:
111:
93:
90:
71:
68:
65:
64:
52:
51:
34:
23:
15:
14:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
1445:
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1387:
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1377:
1374:
1368:
1366:
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1360:
1356:
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1346:
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1338:
1333:
1332:
1321:
1317:
1314:
1310:
1309:
1308:
1301:
1295:
1291:
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1283:
1277:
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1268:
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1199:
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1128:
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1093:
1090:This file is
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1066:
1065:Public domain
1055:
1054:
1051:To uploader:
1046:
1044:
1040:
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1026:public domain
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1014:
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986:
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980:
976:
968:
966:
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945:
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926:
919:
914:
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406:Verifiability
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112:
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105:
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92:Controversial
91:
89:
88:
84:
80:
76:
69:
62:
58:
57:
49:
45:
41:
40:
35:
28:
27:
19:
1422:
1403:
1384:
1381:
1378:
1375:
1372:
1353:
1350:
1328:
1325:
1300:source check
1279:
1273:
1260:
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1217:
1214:
1196:
1193:
1188:
1183:
1175:
1156:
1126:
1125:
1122:
1117:
1115:
1112:
1091:
1089:
1059:
1052:
1050:
1024:
1022:
972:
955:24.16.193.15
949:— Preceding
946:
923:— Preceding
915:
911:
907:
887:
872:
853:
827:
808:
782:
763:
737:
718:
692:
672:
606:Tom Grunfeld
569:
551:
513:
510:
506:
502:
500:
480:
459:
426:Clay Collier
403:
395:
390:
387:
305:Clay Collier
231:Clay Collier
189:Clay Collier
169:
142:
139:
134:
131:
116:
98:
95:
77:
73:
60:
43:
37:
1267:Sourcecheck
929:Woofenstein
824:Dead link 4
779:Dead link 3
734:Dead link 2
501:In section
462:—Preceding
384:Reference 6
146:—Preceding
36:This is an
1337:Report bug
1176:KGB Agent
1135:|commons}}
618:Simon Leys
279:citations.
258:Dalai Lama
1396:tylersaz
1365:Tylersaz
1320:this tool
1313:this tool
1035:Hong Kong
994:Wikimedes
891:Wikimedes
889:WP:China?
876:Wikimedes
689:Dead link
577:Kkkdddiii
539:to avoid
503:Aftermath
356:revisions
300:This page
61:Archive 1
1386:Tylersaz
1355:Tylersaz
1326:Cheers.—
1067:in China
1061:PD-China
951:unsigned
937:contribs
925:unsigned
856:JeffGBot
811:JeffGBot
766:JeffGBot
721:JeffGBot
654:Bertport
555:Bertport
514:American
464:unsigned
270:sources.
208:Akinkhoo
148:unsigned
1253:checked
1224:my edit
1198:Rajmaan
574:WP:NPOV
325:account
39:archive
1406:DPPTPP
1261:failed
1043:Taiwan
676:DXDanl
440:DXDanl
410:DXDanl
360:DXDanl
341:DXDanl
333:DXDanl
295:Here's
281:DXDanl
264:Exile.
1127:Note:
1104:), or
1039:Macao
1031:China
638:Davin
622:Davin
592:Davin
16:<
1431:(♫♫)
1410:talk
1390:talk
1379:To:
1359:talk
1257:true
1202:talk
1163:talk
1037:and
998:talk
979:talk
959:talk
933:talk
895:talk
880:talk
860:talk
815:talk
770:talk
725:talk
680:talk
658:talk
642:talk
626:talk
596:talk
581:talk
559:talk
522:talk
488:talk
472:talk
444:talk
430:talk
414:talk
364:talk
345:talk
337:talk
329:that
309:talk
285:talk
235:talk
226:here
212:talk
193:talk
177:Talk
166:NPOV
156:talk
124:talk
104:talk
83:talk
1294:RfC
1271:).
1259:or
1244:to
1133:to
1029:in
844:In
837:In
799:In
792:In
754:In
747:In
709:In
702:In
516:?
70:Map
1412:)
1392:)
1361:)
1307:.
1302:}}
1298:{{
1269:}}
1265:{{
1204:)
1165:)
1131:}}
1120:.
1000:)
981:)
961:)
939:)
935:•
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1161:(
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191:(
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102:(
81:(
50:.
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