Talk:2014 Crimean status referendum/Archive 6

1021:). Much of the Orthodox population identifies in some way with the former Orthodox states of the Crimea that were conquered by, and persecuted by, the Muslim Crimean Tatars, especially today with the resurgence of interest in religiosity. It is very very hard to 'fairly' present the ancient history of conflicts, so I don't think such ancient history should be presented here. If we look for "who started it," we can go back in our retelling of an ancient tit-for-tat conflict to whatever arbitrary date we want such that the desired group "started" it. Similarly, these discussions about "who was there first" and "who is native" (and therefore somehow deserves even more recognition than their current non-majority status would otherwise entail) are easily manipulated by again choosing when to 'start the clock.' In any case, the Encyclopedia Britannica article on slavery states, "Approximately 75 percent of the Crimean population consisted of slaves or freedmen." ( 1314:

the FPÖ as simply populist/right-wing populist]]. I can provide many other sources to prove my point. The source in the article is a piece of the New York Times that puts a whole bunch of political parties together (including the FPÖ) and calls them far-right. The New York Tines is hardly a reliable source when it comes to European Politics. What is lamentable more than anything else is the fact that the article calls the heir of Belgium's Vlaams Blok simply "nationalist" and does not put any adjective at all next to France's Front National: both parties are notoriously racist, far right, and xenophobic. I think that part of the article is pushing POV, trying to make it look like only far-right folks in Europe stand behind the Crimean People, which is obviously untrue. I propose to either eliminate the part that says "far-right" or substitute it with "right-wing populist". Any civil, non-threatening comment will be appreciated. --

1025:) The Crimean Tatars' slaves (and freed slaves) were of course Christian (mostly Slav, hence the name), so if we are counting all humans (rather than simply the ruling 'citizens'), it is not even clear that the Muslim Crimean Tatars were a majority of residents of the Crimea, before their slave state began to fall. Introducing such distant history into this article's morality tale is, I believe, inappropriate. I realize that recent news articles have been dabbling in history, the media always does, but news is not scholarship, and it is possible that those articles have a POV. 765:(I am using Russian language sources), it was explained that "Однако если посмотреть на проект 1992 года ... Там предусмотрено предоставление Крыму всех прав независимого административно-территориального образования в составе Украины, наделенного широкими полномочиями определять свою судьбу и устанавливать отношения с любыми странами, в том числе с Россией... поскольку пророссийский парламент уже заявил, что хочет вернуть Крым в состав России, этот второй вариант лишь предусматривает несколько более продолжительный процесс передачи полуострова под контроль России." 3505:. Why should a UN agency having the task of helping development conduct polls on a question like that ? Ukraine is a sovereign member of the UN, its borders are internationally accepted, even Russia signed various treaties accepting Ukraine's borders - in that situation no UN agency would even think of conducting such a poll. Why should a UN agency use a server in the domain crimea.ua ? The poll was removed by an IP on May 22 with the edit summary, 1521: 31: 916: 2931: 2932:

https://www.google.com/search?q=from%3Aundp.org+%22undp.crimea.ua%22&sxsrf=ALiCzsbssc3ny-7F2iIj_NHO0UwDJZ9NvQ%3A1666967000770&ei=2OVbY_DJLqj31sQPk7isqAg&ved=0ahUKEwjwlbv_j4P7AhWou5UCHRMcC4UQ4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=from%3Aundp.org+%22undp.crimea.ua%22&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQA0oECEEYAUoECEYYAFCRkAtY9bgLYJa-C2gBcAB4AIABcIgB5QmSAQQxNy4xmAEAoAEBwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

485:). The Council is made of human rights activists. The members aren't working for the Russian government, they aren't some "insiders who knew the results". :) They aren't "Putin supporters" even. The advising/counseling organization was created cause probably the President of Russia wanted to know the opinion of prominent activists criticizing the Russian government (just guessing). -- 2105:- Still referring to "UNDP in Crimea conducted series of polls about possible referendum on joining Russia with a sample size of 1200:", it is to be noted that this series of polls also included a question about the statut of Crimea, and the possibility of joining the Russian Federation. This is interesting and could be included in the article. I have compiled the data below: 1090:"A total of 82% of the population of the Crimea fully support Russia's annexation of the peninsula, according to a poll carried out by the GfK Group research institute in Ukraine, Ukrainian online newspaper Ukrainska Pravda reported on Wednesday. Another 11% of respondents said that they rather support the annexation of Crimea, while 4% were against it." UNIAN: 1899: 1796: 967:, because it hides the fact that Crimean Tatars were a majority 200 years ago and were displaced and finally deported by Russians. In my opinion, the displacement of Greeks by Tatars before all that is not relevant to this article, because the Greeks are not involved in the conflict between Tatars and Russians. 3617:

The survey has been edited, deleted and restored many, many times. It’s also sources with dead links to a website that can’t be verified as belonging to UNDP when searching their official websites. I have written UNDP to investigate and contact Wiki if they confirm that the information is doctored to

3408:

Sorry, Mellk, but how experienced editors interpret WP guidelines in a similar case is NOT irrelevant. That was my first point. What you quoted above ("it was rigged, so ...") has not been said here. My second point is that the "results" of a rigged referendum are not important enough to be mentioned

1358:

section table, the Crimea total registered voters is calculated as Total votes cast (sourced) divided by Turnout (sourced). The result is almost identical to the number of registered voters from February (sourced), which is out of date however. The question is, whether such calculation is permissible

1313:

I find at least part of article to be biased because defining the Freedom Party of Austria "far-right" is falsifying the truth. The FPÖ is a traditional libertarian type of party which turned to right-wing populism in the 80's-90's. Famous and reliable German Newspaper Die Zeit, for instance, defines

1096:

pls put this under the post referendum polls section. so thats it. anyone seriously believed that russians had to falsify this referendum? we saw how crimeans greeted russian soldiers last year - with kisses and flowers cheering. remember what the BBC reported said on the referendum day: they couldnt

729:

More from the statement: "Ukraine is descending into complete chaos, anarchy and economic catastrophe. Following the fundamental principles of democracy, the presidium of the Crimean parliament believes that the only possible way out of the current situation is to apply the principles of direct rule

342:

The Mejlis Deputy Chairman Akhtem Chiygoz argued that peak voter turnout in the referendum among Crimeans could only be a 30–40 percent, whilst former Russian government adviser Andrey Illarionov, stated that the support for the reunification of Crimea with Russia was about 34 percent, citing results

2771:

An IP reverted you, then you restored this. Still, at this stage, I think it is too early. It would be better to work out a compromise version in the meantime. So, I would suggest restoring the infobox how it was but making it clearer it is according to official results such as when it mentions each

1691:

1. The Crimean parliament did recognized the new Ukrainian governement. Only after the parlament was seized by russian special units, and the governor was replaced with new one, only then the parliament claimed it doesn't recognize the new Ukrainian governement. 2.Before the referendum the peninsula

711:

As for the second part, it just should be rewritten closer to the source. (But I'm arfaid you'll like it even less.) The source says: "Crimeans, As a result of the unconstitutional seizure of power in Ukraine by radical nationalists with the support of armed gangs, peace and tranquility in Crimea is

3251:

You could have done this without referencing a different RfC for a different article as showing consensus for this article. As I mentioned above, coverage was different in RS, and an argument for not including such an infobox would be if RS did not give any attention to such results. In the case of

3233:

The situation is almost identical; it's a rigged Russian election held in Ukraine, that resulted in Russia annexing a part of Ukraine in a move that almost no other nation recognizes. Further, almost all the arguments made in the RfC there are applicable here - and indeed many of the arguments made

2358:

This article has the big gaping hole of not explaining why people voted the way they did. Why did people vote to stay with Ukraine, or with Russia? It needs to go a little further than saying "the Ukranian Revolution" and "ethnic Russians". Were they afraid of Ukraine? Did they think they'd benefit

1615:

The Sevastopol total votes cast and total registered voters are both sourced and the latter corresponds to the official February figure as well. However, a simple calculation confirms with a 99.7% confidence, that at least one of these numbers does not come from the original vote count sums, but it

173:

Illarionov's opinion itself probably is notable, but not because it is his opinion, but because many people share his opinion. However, we don't have a source for that. Each such controversial opinion has to be attributed, exactly as the official results are attributed. The Mejlis Deputy Chairman's

3129:

The RfC was specifically about those four infoboxes in that specific article. Nowhere in that RfC does it mention the infobox in THIS article. Just because you think a RfC should apply to another article that is not covered, does not mean it does apply. Claiming it shows consensus for this article

2742:

Sorry if you did not understand where I am getting at. However I do not see consensus for your change. Also I do not see that this issue has been raised before, it seems no one had an issue with the infobox the past 8 years until now (correct me if I am wrong on this). But if another editor agrees

1480:

Sevastopol total votes cast and total registered voters: These come from the Sevastopol city administration, so they are well-sourced and correspond to the official February figure as well. However, a simple calculation confirms with a 99.7% confidence, that at least one of these numbers does not

1043:

I agree, but I think that the background section should note that there were dramatic changes in the past 200 years (or maybe even more?), although no details are needed. This is not to show who was there first or who started it. It is just to illustrate the region's volatility. I'll try an edit.

1016:

Thanks for opening a discussion. I believe that the recent deportation and oppression of Crimean Tatars, which affected some still alive today, is important. More ancient history is story-telling, and is dangerous. 250 years ago Muslim Crimean Tatars may have been a majority, but even if that is

1652:

How is this choice not "the status quo"? Even if it wasn't, voters would have still voted for it if they thought this would be the result. I don't get what this is implying. It seems the allegation of no choice was an early presumption based on what would have happened if they had voted for this

824:

The current version creates wrong impression that it was a legitimate decision by legitimate representatives. However, this is something highly controversial, because the building of the Council has been occupied by Russian special forces who controlled everything out there. I think this can and

693:

for clarity. 2nd paragraph - this is simply more short and easily understandable text. 3rd paragraph. The justification by presidium of the council was not the reason for referendum. This is a controversial matter that can be discussed in the body of the page, but does not belong to intro, in my

797:

ad 3rd paragraph: Here the article is not trying to assess if the referendum is justified or not. It just reports on what reasons the referendum organizers give. Their validity is irrelevant here. I think that the answer to the question "Why did you organize the plebiscite?" is one of the most

459:

This article implies that the official results are legitimate. They are not. Russia claimed 97% of Crimeans voted for annexation on a turnout of 83%. The Russian Presidential Council revealed that the percentages were actually 50% of 30% turnout. Remembering that most opponents of the Russian

2099:- A table shows some results to a question that is not clearly stated. It is related to the statement that "UNDP in Crimea conducted series of polls about possible referendum on joining Russia with a sample size of 1200:", but this table may be confusing when not having a question included. 1063:

Considering that Russian authorities accidentally published, then retracted 15% support for union with the Russian Federation, along with voting irregularities of 104% turnout in "official" results, the legend "Subdivisions of Crimea colored according to referendum results" should be titled

316:

there, much in the same way you're just asserting it here. By a single purpose newly created account, mostly likely a sock puppet. Your only argument against Illarionov in that section is that... his numbers don't agree with your original research. That's the opposite of following Knowledge

3452:

You are not obliged to respond. But for future, linking a different RfC or simply just repeating the closing comment (which does not apply here) instead of writing an argument is best avoided. At the moment you have not given a good argument, but I do not expect it to be improved upon.

3344:

says the purpose is to summarize the key facts, in a way that does not simply supplement them. It does not specifically refer to the "most important information". This would include the claimed results which show the outcome of annexation, as given prominence in the sources.

2589:

I do not see any precedent on this with any other election/referendum articles, including the most rigged ones. Let's also remember that this referendum was organized by Russia, and the legitimacy itself is mostly dismissed, it is not just the results that are disputed.

2682:

No, I do not think that article has a problem with NPOV, just like I do not think an infobox in this article showing the official results has a problem with NPOV. What I was trying to say was that there is probably a reason why in general this is not seen as a problem.

3591:

On top of that, a lot of these articles about 2014 originally necessarily relied extensively on journalistic sources. Much of that should be replaced by more academic sources reflecting the current consensus with years of retrospection and the elimination of serious

1472:

Crimea total registered voters: Calculated as Total votes cast (official number) / Turnout (official number). The result is almost identical to the official number of registered voters from February. The question is, whether such calculation is permissible under

3312:

This is basically with any election, where the "most important information" is who won, not what the exact figure of the win was (which here would be the result of annexation anyway). In this case, it is still highlighted, rather than omitted in the other case.

3113:

Mellk, if you read the Rfc, you will see that nearly all that was said applies also to this article. I don't think anybody should restore the infoboxes without explaining the differences between the referendum covered in this article and that in the other one.

2786:

I also want to add that as it was a Moscow-organized referendum, Moscow gave the results, so even if it was completely rigged, the article is still about a Moscow-organized referendum. The "disputed" outcome implies there are competing tallies or something.

1262:

Population of Crimea: 2million Population of Gibraltar: 30thousand Population of the Falklands: 3thousand When you have a much lower population, a vote with over 90% in favor is very possible, but a lot less likely when the population reaches the millions.

730:

of the people. We are convinced that only a referendum on the improvement of the status of the autonomy and expansion of its powers will allow the people of Crimea to determine the future of the autonomy on their own without external pressure or diktat." --

613:

You're right, I'm sorry. I meant to copy-paste the sentence suggested by Seryo93 above but I clicked on an older version to get the ref for the Illarionov portion of the quote and ended up clicking save on that version. I'll put in the right thing in there

2907:

The UNDP polling data removed in the recent revision is easy to corroborate as coming from the actual UNDP in Crimea website, called the 'Crimea integration and development programme'. A look at the internet archive shows that the site dates back to 2002.

2843:

I've restored the official results. This information is what readers expect to find in infoboxes for elections and referendums, even for disputed or fraudulent ones. Instead, we need to figure out how to present the information in the appropriate context.

779:

It depends on the point of view and what source you use (for example the ballot choice itself speaks about Crimea's status as part of Ukraine). We have to balance them. Is there anything, that you consider wrong, in the original version of the paragraph?

2331:

according to the Russian Law ? Ukraine Law? Or a referendum was not, but was a poll? a referendum has never been, was a poll! the city of Sevastopol has never been a part of the Crimea either in the times of the USSR or in Ukraine, why it was annexed?

2937:

The polling data therefore comes from an actual UNDP mission and removing it just because the site has since become defunct is wrong. I have restored it given that I have proven beyond any reasonable doubt that this was an official UNDP poll.

2829:. The issue is not about whether the numbers of the official results are true or not, otherwise by this logic, we should not have any such infobox for any Russian election articles which all involve ballot stuffing, inflated numbers etc. 2109:

Answers to the question: "There are different opinions about what status would be optimal for the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. Which of the following options is the most appropriate for your views? "In your opinion, Crimea should be:

1884: 3073:

Why do you believe there would be a different result if an RfC was held here? As far as I can tell all the relevant facts are the same, and if that is the case then it would be a waste of the communities time to hold another RfC.

2407:

There are a lot of holes and unsourced claims regarding the administration of the referendum and its proceedings e.g. where it was organized, who were allowed to vote. Any sources that goes into detail on the process would be

3022:

Because this is an RfC about 2022 "referendums" and not this vote. The outcome of that RfC did not apply to this article. If I am wrong, can you point out where in the RfC it mentions the infobox of this article too?

870:

By "why it could create this impression" I mean that the lead says several times that "the referendum was regarded as illegitimate by most countries". It mentions "a resolution declaring the referendum invalid", etc.

1468:

The official numbers are well-sourced and therefore should be included into the article. The Mejlis claim is well-sourced too and should be included as well. The numbers in the table come from the following sources:

1224:. Russia isn't UK, ask the reachest Russian people, who transfer their money to the UK, send their children to UK schools and universities. Who didn't participate in Gibraltar or Falkland Islands like Tatars didn't? 3266:

Reviewing a sampling of the sources included most of them don't include the results. Of those that do they don't give any credence to the results and instead put them in the context of "Russia claims" or similar.

3297:

MOS says, "the most important". That RS gave attention to it, doesn't mean that RS presented it as "most important". Now, in 2023, there are not only news sources, but also academic books covering these events.

3381:

an outcome of annexation. The only argument presented here is "it was rigged so it cannot be mentioned in an infobox" which is not mentioned in any guideline. The key arguments for not including an infobox in

1694:

Now you would have to agree that things like that are important, and should be mentioned in the article, right? But they aren't... why? I guess Putin pays some good money to wikipedia to write his propaganda

1017:

true, they were a majority ruling over an oppressed native minority (namely the indigenous Orthodox Christians, some Greek-speaking, some no-longer so) that they themselves had conquered 200 years prior (see

3423:

You keep mentioning the "most important thing" but this is not mentioned in the guideline. In addition, mentioning a past RfC for a different article is not a replacement for writing your own arguments.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20140722133147/http://sevsovet.com.ua/index.php/2011-06-30-23-44-03/12395-na-sessii-gorodskogo-soveta-utverzhdeny-rezultaty-obshchekrymskogo-referenduma-16-marta-2014-goda

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in an infobox. The most important thing (that it was manipulated in many ways) should be placed most prominently. Feel free to start just another RfC or to seek other ways of conflict resolution.

1616:

is rather calculated using the turnout percentage rounded to 89.5%. The same occurs for the Sevastopol "Join Russia" vote count, which is precisely 95.6% of the total votes cast. This proof is an

556:

This edit does not correspond to the current consensus, because it contains the following changes, vast majority of them was done repeatedly by this editor and therefore constitutes edit warring:

3588:

Yeah, official Russian sources shoudn’t be extensively used to present apparent “detailed results” of a sham referendum. We should only present them cited by and as presented by reliable sources.

1971: 2668:

If you think that the 1927 Liberian general election doesn't comply with NPOV, then I would suggest starting a discussion there; it isn't relevant to whether this article complies with NPOV.

1991: 1888: 323:- not unless you actually give some kind of policy-based reason or support for why Illarionov - definitely an expert on the area (former economic policy advisor to Putin!) - is "not notable". 3438:

Mellk, this discussion now really has gone on long enough. I quoted "most important" from the closer's comment. The MOS says "key facts", and it also says "exclude any unnecessary content".

427:

So why did Illarionov end up in the lead? Furthermore, it cannot be said that he is "citing results of previous polls over past three years" because he is not, as Petr Matas demonstrated.

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That's an argument why the RFC is irrelevant - one I disagree with, given the very clear parallels between the this referendum and those referendums - not why raising it is disingenuous.

1123:

In Crimean the voter support was 96.77% for joining Russia. This is lower than voter support in Falklands(99.8%) and Gibraltar(98.48%) in similar referendums about their national status.

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as evidence of consensus for THIS article comes across as disingenuous. You tried to make the same edit a while ago without consensus and now trying to brute force it. OK, not good.

809:

As you write, the true reason for the referendum could be different, but I think that the strongest statement, that you can find reliable sources for, would be "XY speculates that

1151:

I don't believe that 99.8% support can be obtained by democratic means. 97% may be possible in a country lacking independent media, but I would not call such country democratic.

2805:) and even without competing tallies the results are disputed; independent reliable sources believe that Russia lied about the figures, even if they don't have the real figures. 3531:

2. undp.crimea.ua was indeed an official website of the UN Development Programme. It is referenced on numerous official documents hosted directly on the UNDP website, such as

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emphasis on them. It's not possible to do this with the infobox, which is why we refer the reader to the results section which shows these official results in context.

843:. It was absolutely legitimate, it was the same council, nothing changed. It was dissolved by the Rada much later, on 15 March 2014, one day before the referendum.) -- 462:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/putins-human-rights-council-accidentally-posts-real-crimean-election-results-only-15-voted-for-annexation/

2912:

And a quick search of the official UNDP domain returns numerous documents which link back to undp.crimea.ua, clearly showing that it was an official UNDP website.

1329:

Nobody seems to be interested in this: I will go ahead and edit the article and if someone has something against it, please, feel free to chime in. Kind regards, --

2023: 2019: 2005: 72: 67: 59: 2861:

is non-negotiable; even if readers expect this information in the infobox it can't be in there unless we can make it clear that it was disputed or fraudulent.

1972:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140328162405/http://www.ukrinform.ua/ukr/news/timoshenko_referendum_pro_status_krimu_pid_dulami_avtomativ_e__nelegitimnim_1915295

144:

I said that he doesn't have to be mentioned by name, that's different. Why shouldn't he be included? We could combine the two sentences into one if that helps.

1596:

because it is simple math, but maybe prefix it with "approx." or something because it is clear that 83.1% is rounded assuming all other figures are accurate.

1246:

Don't be so sure. The 2008 Razumkov Centre poll suggests that 14% of Tatars were even in favor of joining Russia. Propaganda works quite well in East Europe.

1992:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140317111614/http://ro.stiri.yahoo.com/titus-corl%C4%83%C5%A3ean-despre-referendumul-din-crimeea-rezultatele-nu-101510533.html

1889:

http://sevsovet.com.ua/index.php/2011-06-30-23-44-03/12395-na-sessii-gorodskogo-soveta-utverzhdeny-rezultaty-obshchekrymskogo-referenduma-16-marta-2014-goda

387:

Ok, that won't harm, although I would prefer Chiygoz alone as better representing the western views. Please do not remove Illarionov from the article body.

1453:

only 30% of voters participated. So, statement from the Sevastopol city administration is seriously challenged and qualifies for POV or neutrality fail.

1023:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fJSmVGPTL0YJ:www.britannica.com/blackhistory/article-24157+&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

3180: 2387:"Stay with Ukraine", no, they in fact would have been fully independent. Even politically. Just read what the Constitution of Crimea of that time said. 988:

Do you mean that a significant part (how large?) of the current Crimea population identify themselves with the people once displaced by Crimean Tatars?

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consisted of there being consensus that the infoboxes were not informative in that article and that the results were not given any prominence in RS.

857:

The article implies that on the day of the first decision to hold the referendum (27 February), the parliament was already occupied by armed forces.

2552:

Even votes where everyone agrees we’re fraudulent have their results displayed. Not liking the results doesn’t mean you remove them from the infobox

1995: 3156:

I did not say that the RfC should apply here, but I said that what was said in that RfC can be applied to this article. From the closer's comment:

2102:- The table I refer above doesn't give much interesting information, with results covering a short period of time only. This could be summarized. 1624: 1385: 1371: 1363:, and if yes, whether the result has to be rounded to reflect the fact, that the turnout is given with a 3 significant digits precision, to avoid 839:

I don't really see why it could create this impression. But the representatives were indeed legitimate. (If by "the representatives" you mean the

2697:

What is the reason? If the infobox gives readers the impression that these results are legitimate and undisputed, then there is an NPOV problem.

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This is not a tally. This is already mentioned in the alternative estimates section (because it is an estimate) and is from an official report

2575:

I agree with the platypus. Presenting the results in an infobox, removed from the context of a discussion of their legitimacy, is misleading.

3237:

If you can't see any reason that the result here would be different, why is it worth spending the time of the community to hold another RfC?

715:. I found it when I searched the net for the part I translated. There's more of the original statement carefully translated into English.) -- 3502: 2963: 1761: 1408: 465: 3513:

from which I conclude that there was a misunderstanding, since nobody ever claimed that the International Republican Institute was fake.

481:

First of all, this is already mentioned in the sections "Alternative estimates of results" and "Aftermath". Secondly, you misunderstood (

2939: 2455: 2388: 2339: 1696: 1477:, and if yes, whether the result has to be rounded to reflect the fact, that the turnout is given with a 3 significant digits precision. 47: 17: 3327:

The discussion has already become rather long, but I didn't read any reason based on WP guidelines why the infobox should be included.

1869:

http://www.undp.crimea.ua/img/content/Strategy%20Implementation%20Monitoring%20Report%20%28October%20to%20December%202011%29%285%29.pdf

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Policy doesn't permit us to use the failure of other articles to comply with NPOV to justify this articles failure to comply - NPOV

2001:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

1894:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

1481:

come from the original vote count sums, but it is rather calculated using the turnout percentage rounded to 89.5%. This proof is an

1449:, I appreciate your gesture. But we still did not confirm where the total numbers of voters came from in the article. According to 3008:

How is it disingenuous? I had forgotten about the previous discussion, but it died out without coming to a conclusion either way.

645:"Reinsertion of the "15–30%" expression" - why is this removed? i see no reason why it should be censored, can someone explain? -- 3547:

My apologies for the confusion regarding the International Republican Institute comment. That was a misunderstanding on my part.

3199:

My edit summary said, correctly, that there was a consensus against the arguments used here - not that the RfC directly applied.

3134:, then this will have to go to a noticeboard instead because quite frankly, it is ridiculous. The title of the RfC is literally: 3652: 1955: 1852: 1745: 1287: 3177:

Sorry, I was more referring to BilledMammal's edit summary. The first two sources cited in this article highlight the results

3088:

I don't find the "there would probably be consensus for this change" argument to be convincing. Is that part of the policies?

746:

ad 2nd paragraph: By restoring the 1992 constitution, Crimea would stay formally within Ukraine, therefore the edit is wrong.

234:

I meant that you'll probably find someone, who says something similar, but whose opinion is notable, unlike the Illarionov's.

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One of the most obvious elements of that referendum seen from a democratic point of view was the speed of the process. This

574:

Removal of Malyshev's report: Disputed, at least two editors want to see the reports on local observers in the article, see

2915:

You can find this domain being referenced in numerous official documents from the UNDP website, for example here are some:

2486:

This title is not consistent with all other election/referendum articles, no matter how rigged or clean they were, example

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was overran by russian soldiers, and the referendum itself was conducted in fact under occupation of foreigner military.

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separation of Crimea from Ukraine." Yes, it would. This has been described/discussed in numerous sources. For example,

3185:. Point is, coverage differed significantly in RS. Such figures were not mentioned in RS for 2022 for obvious reasons. 1617: 1482: 1091: 896: 876: 848: 735: 720: 536: 508: 490: 2661:

Showing what the official results are is not a violation, if we make it clear that they are disputed and don't place

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http://www.ukrinform.ua/ukr/news/timoshenko_referendum_pro_status_krimu_pid_dulami_avtomativ_e__nelegitimnim_1915295

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I wonder why this article is failing to mention some important factors, I guess Putin pays good money to wikipedia.

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article only. Yes there are parallels, but the RfC explicitly applies to the infobox of one article. Specifically:

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invasion boycotted a vote organized by the supporters of invasion, that suggests strong opposition to annexation.

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I think having the official results so prominently, even with a small note that they are disputed, would provide

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http://ro.stiri.yahoo.com/titus-corl%C4%83%C5%A3ean-despre-referendumul-din-crimeea-rezultatele-nu-101510533.html

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The overall gestalt impression between the subsection and the following one doesn’t quite give an impression of

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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Removal of the presidential council report attribution to Bobrov: Disputed, at least two editors against. See

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https://web.archive.org/web/20140331184952/http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2014-03/12/c_126258900.htm

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1. The source is available on the Internet Archive. Link rot is not an acceptable reason to remove a source.

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Do you support the restoration of the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea in 1992 and the status of the

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that an infobox with official results is some kind of NPOV violation, then you can restore it. Regards.

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Note: the survey actually included 3 answer variation possibilities for "Autonomous Region Of Ukraine".

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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https://web.archive.org/web/20111217151026/http://2001.ukrcensus.gov.ua/eng/results/general/nationality/

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No, my edit was not wrong. It tells: "All of the choices available on the ballot would have resulted in

3394:. So referring to a consensus of a different article is completely irrelevant. No reason to sidetrack. 3268: 3238: 3200: 3075: 3038: 3009: 2984: 2862: 2813: 2758: 2739: 2726: 2698: 2669: 2616: 2561: 1962:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit 1859:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit 1752:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit 1718:

Would contributors please be aware that this is an article talk page, not a forum or blog. Please read

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rather than an allegation of lack of options. Also, calling it "controversial" over that is quite POV.

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https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2014/04/14/UN-report-Russia-rigged-Crimea-vote/4511397498675/

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Did I understand you correctly that you think the annexation was the "outcome" of the referendum ?

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from being a part of Russia? This needs to be an entire section, like "Voter Opinion" or something.

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Removing data not proven to be from UN. The website where it's hosted is defunct and seems fake.

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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in jeopardy." That was the justification for the referendum. Here's a better source in English:

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I'm sorry, you lost me. First you say his opinion is probably notable, then you say it's not. ?

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that you will not insist on Illarionov, if there is some alternative, which is Chiygoz now.

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It is not possible to use that RfC to say it "demonstrates a consensus" for this article.

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This was a POV edit that practically made the article lie that both choices were the same.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20140310230456/http://dpsu.gov.ua/en/about/news/news_3533.htm

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determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article

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the differences between the referendum covered in this article and that in the other one

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Should we include the below infobox's within the article to show the referendum results?

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This seems like complete nonsense. If there is no link to UN.ORG - i suggest deletion.

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

1918:

If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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And the outcome of a rigged referendum is surely not the most important information.

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I do not understand what you are trying to say, what are you trying to accuse me of?

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So the results are attributed to the officials. Does not sound unique in this case.

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find any person against annexation, every person they interviewed was pro-russian.

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important pieces of information in the article and should stay in the lead section.

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Affiliation of individual observers: Reinsertion, at least two editors against. See

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does say that we should include only the most important information in the infobox.

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http://www.unian.info/politics/1040281-poll-82-of-crimeans-support-annexation.html#

647: 374: 1429:. And does not hate east Ukraine or Crimea, but such non-adequates like yourself. 2802: 1878: 3598: 2472:

The lead and infobox quote obviouly false results without expressing any doubts.

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should be described in the body of article, but hardly belongs to introduction.

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Illarionov in the lead: This is just a reinsertion of the disputed wording. See

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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emphasis on those results, but I have added a wikilink to the results section.

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Another editor did, Bondegezou, which is why I see a consensus for the change.

3501:. That server is not reachable any more and doesn't look like a server of the 3454: 3425: 3395: 3346: 3314: 3282: 3253: 3214: 3186: 3143: 3130:

comes across as disingenuous. If your best argument is someone has to explain

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and kindly respect Knowledge's protocols. Thank you for your understanding. --

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If articles for sham or rigged elections are like this, a classic example is

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cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus

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http://content-ext.undp.org/aplaws_publications/3307336/UNDP_Ukraine_web.pdf

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It can be argued that the article itself gives an impression of legitimacy.

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Reinsertion of the "15–30%" expression from the above report: Disputed, see

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for titles includes consistency, so what other articles have such a title?

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Talk:Crimean referendum, 2014/Archive 2#Sevastopol registered voters count

926:. Does anyone have any good reference for it (no opinion pieces, please)? 3182:. Even after the plot was revealed it is still mentioned in the same way. 758: 259:

Not enough for inclusion in the lead. This has already been explained in

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And why did people vote the way they did?? Voter Opinion section needed.

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Wow, that's a pretty serious accusation against the British government.

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My proposal is to combine Chiygoz and Illarionov in a following sentence

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Why exactly is he being removed from lead? Like, what policy or reason?

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An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.

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An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum,_2013

3637:. It was a genuine UNDP site, as is confirmed by UNDP documents like 3511:

The ] is a non-profit funded by the US government. It's not "fake".

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A region, which is directly subordinate to the President of Ukraine

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actually says it. :) It's the blog writer who misunderstood. :) --

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Showing what the official results are is not a violation of NPOV.

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http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2014-03/12/c_126258900.htm

899:"hastly improvised" and I think this fact should be pointed out.-- 2930:

A Google search returns 250 results for the domain from UNDP.org

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Voter support lower than in Falklands(99.8%) or Gibraltar(98.48%)

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Because I don't know how to prove that the consensus is against.

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It was restored by Masebrock on July 20 with the edit summary,

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https://procurement-notices.undp.org/view_file.cfm?doc_id=19245

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https://en.wikipedia.org/Gibraltar_sovereignty_referendum,_2002

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Correction: Sorry I assumed you misunderstood. You didn't. The

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http://2001.ukrcensus.gov.ua/eng/results/general/nationality/

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http://www.zeit.de/2015/15/rechtspopulismus-oesterreich-fpoe

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the

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Maybe 99.8% is possible with an electorate of 1,650 voters.

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The guy from Lvov? Lol, they hate east ukraine and crimea

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https://web.archive.org/web/20020601000000*/undp.crimea.ua

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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Talk:Crimean referendum, 2014/Archive 2#Original research

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Sorry but it is quite clear that the RfC applies to the

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Usage of criminal language makes editors co-responsible.

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and I don't know how to deal with it. This is discussed

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2022 annexation referendums in Russian-occupied Ukraine

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2022 annexation referendums in Russian-occupied Ukraine

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2022 annexation referendums in Russian-occupied Ukraine

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No problem and sorry for this accusation of bad faith.

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in that RfC were made in the previous discussion here.

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https://erc.undp.org/evaluation/documents/download/644

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I don't think that we have reached consensus for the

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says that the use of an in infobox in an article is

1202:. Do you really think anything hinges on this fact? 2615:. Instead, those articles should be fixed as well. 2018:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 1611:

Proof that vote counts have been reverse calculated

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Of course I still disagree about the other aspects.

174:(Chiygoz) opinion is notable, Illarionov's is not. 2327:a referendum is called a will according to the Law 891:The speed of the whole procedure is not mentioned? 2956:The current website is taken over by squatters. 1620:and I wonder whether we can make any use of it. 1592:I think such calculation is permissible and not 1350:Total registered voters calculation and rounding 669: 588: 581: 3213:In other words, you claimed to have consensus? 2004:This message was posted before February 2018. 1879:http://dpsu.gov.ua/en/about/news/news_3533.htm 594:Removal of the Pew center poll: Disputed, see 1505:As there is no consensus on applicability of 1294:, and evidently no consensus was reached. -- 1064:"Subdivisions of Crimea colored according to 245:Why is Illarionov's opinion "non-notable"??? 8: 3377:was the outcome, I said the claimed results 2174:Autonomous Subject of the Russian Federation 1714:Respecting the purpose of article talk pages 1582:, I have added an explanation to the top. — 1086:Poll by GFK Ukraine - 93% support annexation 527:says, the report wasn't removed, it's still 2953:I see no proof of this being related to UN. 3633:The veracity of the website was confirmed 3596:problems with news reports of the time. — 2333: 1744:I have just modified one external link on 1673: 1098: 1954:I have just modified 3 external links on 1851:I have just modified 3 external links on 2725:I don't understand what you are saying? 2113: 343:of previous polls over past three years. 309:#Estimates of real support for secession 261:#Estimates of real support for secession 95:#Estimates of real support for secession 3663: 1278:Public opinion poll, 16–22 January 2015 3510: 3506: 3391: 3157: 3135: 3131: 3056: 2612: 2551: 2323:Oriclay 13:39, 25 February 2018 (UTC) 994:08:37, 27 October 2014 (UTC). Update: 576:#Russian presentation of the observers 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 2647:, why do you think this is the case? 2453:2014 rigged Crimean status referendum 1783:to let others know (documentation at 1560:, please explain the RfC! Thank you. 1425:The guy is from the glorious city of 569:#Individual affiliation reports again 301:Not enough for inclusion in the lead. 7: 3634: 3503:United Nations Development Programme 1623:Previous discussion can be found at 1370:Previous discussion can be found at 897:International law professor calls it 595: 464:This should be noted in the article. 2556:Infoboxes also need to comply with 1686:how much does putin pays wikipedia? 307:This has already been explained in 18:Talk:2014 Crimean status referendum 3497:I just removed the polls based on 2504:You mean probably 'is consistent'. 2431:? It is now a car repair company? 24: 3252:this article, it does not apply. 3140:for the results of the referendum 2801:There are competing tallies (see 2403:sources regarding administration? 1958:. Please take a moment to review 1855:. Please take a moment to review 1748:. Please take a moment to review 2772:region. Does that work for you? 1897: 1794: 1655:Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) 1538:to avoid archiving by the bot. — 1519: 1286:, everything has been discussed 914: 263:. Chiygoz will have to suffice. 126: 29: 1956:Crimean status referendum, 2014 1867:Corrected formatting/usage for 1853:Crimean status referendum, 2014 1746:Crimean status referendum, 2014 561: 3618:settle this once and for all. 2854:21:15, 29 September 2022 (UTC) 2839:11:25, 28 September 2022 (UTC) 2822:01:51, 28 September 2022 (UTC) 2797:00:55, 28 September 2022 (UTC) 2782:00:43, 28 September 2022 (UTC) 2767:00:25, 28 September 2022 (UTC) 2753:00:16, 28 September 2022 (UTC) 2735:05:49, 26 September 2022 (UTC) 2721:23:43, 25 September 2022 (UTC) 2707:02:53, 25 September 2022 (UTC) 2693:02:41, 25 September 2022 (UTC) 2678:02:26, 25 September 2022 (UTC) 2657:02:22, 25 September 2022 (UTC) 2645:1927 Liberian general election 2639:02:21, 25 September 2022 (UTC) 2625:02:10, 25 September 2022 (UTC) 2600:22:11, 24 September 2022 (UTC) 2585:22:01, 24 September 2022 (UTC) 2570:11:30, 24 September 2022 (UTC) 2488:1927 Liberian general election 2418:12:33, 24 September 2021 (UTC) 1309:FPÖ - Freedom Party of Austria 959:Demography changes in the past 541:02:55, 27 September 2014 (UTC) 513:02:27, 27 September 2014 (UTC) 495:02:14, 27 September 2014 (UTC) 474:01:40, 27 September 2014 (UTC) 449:14:30, 18 September 2014 (UTC) 1: 3658:12:22, 11 February 2024 (UTC) 3641:linking to it (see page 15). 3628:11:28, 11 February 2024 (UTC) 3607:20:13, 10 November 2023 (UTC) 3583:07:33, 10 November 2023 (UTC) 2547:Referendum results in infobox 2429:https://www.referendum2014.ru 2380:04:59, 21 February 2020 (UTC) 2077:A few issues to be addressed. 1732:20:26, 23 November 2016 (UTC) 668:That discussion belongs to a 437:21:18, 3 September 2014 (UTC) 3136:RfC on the inclusion of the 2948:14:30, 28 October 2022 (UTC) 2203:Autonomous Region Of Ukraine 2072:22:07, 11 January 2018 (UTC) 1839:10:48, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1556:This is not understandable. 1451:Mejlis of the Crimean Tatars 1113:22:26, 4 February 2015 (UTC) 1081:03:31, 25 January 2015 (UTC) 1051:11:16, 31 October 2014 (UTC) 1035:09:29, 27 October 2014 (UTC) 1001:08:41, 27 October 2014 (UTC) 974:08:16, 27 October 2014 (UTC) 949:12:40, 23 October 2014 (UTC) 933:11:34, 23 October 2014 (UTC) 909:10:52, 23 October 2014 (UTC) 881:20:03, 22 October 2014 (UTC) 864:11:46, 23 October 2014 (UTC) 853:19:59, 22 October 2014 (UTC) 835:19:27, 22 October 2014 (UTC) 820:23:36, 21 October 2014 (UTC) 805:23:12, 21 October 2014 (UTC) 787:00:20, 23 October 2014 (UTC) 775:19:27, 22 October 2014 (UTC) 753:23:12, 21 October 2014 (UTC) 740:22:48, 21 October 2014 (UTC) 725:22:37, 21 October 2014 (UTC) 704:22:14, 21 October 2014 (UTC) 589:#Presidential council report 582:#Presidential council report 571:for the proposed compromise. 321:Chiygoz will have to suffice 2871:12:55, 4 October 2022 (UTC) 1942:12:55, 14 August 2017 (UTC) 679:11:31, 9 October 2014 (UTC) 663:02:49, 9 October 2014 (UTC) 564:for the consensual version. 3689: 3499:http://www.undp.crimea.ua/ 2958:http://www.undp.crimea.ua/ 2441:15:33, 12 April 2022 (UTC) 2397:03:38, 20 March 2021 (UTC) 2348:12:11, 13 March 2018 (UTC) 2232:Standard region of Ukraine 2035:(last update: 5 June 2024) 1951:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 1848:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 1741:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 1669:Talk pages are not a forum 1632:16:08, 27 April 2014 (UTC) 1606:18:45, 21 April 2014 (UTC) 1587:18:25, 26 March 2014 (UTC) 1572:00:17, 26 March 2014 (UTC) 1548:01:17, 24 March 2014 (UTC) 1514:08:35, 23 March 2014 (UTC) 1499:13:34, 22 March 2014 (UTC) 1463:12:44, 22 March 2014 (UTC) 1439:12:11, 22 March 2014 (UTC) 1417:07:26, 22 March 2014 (UTC) 1397:05:37, 22 March 2014 (UTC) 1388:yet. I would like to hear 1379:18:25, 26 March 2014 (UTC) 1273:19:42, 14 March 2015 (UTC) 455:Official results are false 3557:09:55, 26 July 2023 (UTC) 3543:09:51, 26 July 2023 (UTC) 3523:09:14, 26 July 2023 (UTC) 2535:06:08, 18 July 2022 (UTC) 2517:05:40, 18 July 2022 (UTC) 2500:16:16, 15 July 2022 (UTC) 2482:10:49, 15 July 2022 (UTC) 2468:10:20, 15 July 2022 (UTC) 1705:17:10, 25 July 2016 (UTC) 1645:Crimea as part of Ukraine 1324:21:31, 19 June 2015 (UTC) 841:Supreme Council of Crimea 3635:in a previous discussion 3565:Undue weight section tag 3463:16:59, 24 May 2023 (UTC) 3448:09:45, 24 May 2023 (UTC) 3434:06:06, 24 May 2023 (UTC) 3419:05:14, 24 May 2023 (UTC) 3404:18:52, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 3369:17:47, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 3355:12:07, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 3337:11:47, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 3323:11:14, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 3308:11:09, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 3291:11:16, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 3277:11:08, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 3262:10:16, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 3247:09:59, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 3223:11:19, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 3209:11:08, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 3195:10:14, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 3173:09:52, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 3152:09:11, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 3124:09:00, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 3098:19:58, 22 May 2023 (UTC) 3084:19:55, 22 May 2023 (UTC) 3069:19:53, 22 May 2023 (UTC) 3047:19:49, 22 May 2023 (UTC) 3033:19:45, 22 May 2023 (UTC) 3018:19:42, 22 May 2023 (UTC) 3003:19:36, 22 May 2023 (UTC) 2972:15:05, 22 May 2023 (UTC) 2423:What happened to source? 1663:19:03, 26 May 2016 (UTC) 1578:Thanks for your notice, 1339:17:33, 2 July 2015 (UTC) 1253:14:43, 12 May 2014 (UTC) 1234:10:38, 12 May 2014 (UTC) 1212:04:17, 12 May 2014 (UTC) 1188:01:19, 15 May 2014 (UTC) 1170:01:03, 15 May 2014 (UTC) 1158:03:12, 12 May 2014 (UTC) 1146:09:57, 11 May 2014 (UTC) 638:17:04, 20 May 2014 (UTC) 627:16:50, 20 May 2014 (UTC) 608:16:43, 20 May 2014 (UTC) 408:05:44, 20 May 2014 (UTC) 394:05:35, 20 May 2014 (UTC) 383:05:10, 20 May 2014 (UTC) 333:04:58, 20 May 2014 (UTC) 270:04:39, 20 May 2014 (UTC) 255:03:08, 20 May 2014 (UTC) 241:07:20, 19 May 2014 (UTC) 207:06:07, 19 May 2014 (UTC) 181:05:51, 19 May 2014 (UTC) 154:05:38, 19 May 2014 (UTC) 136:05:24, 19 May 2014 (UTC) 110:05:05, 19 May 2014 (UTC) 3575:RadioactiveBoulevardier 1947:External links modified 1844:External links modified 1737:External links modified 1304:16:10, 3 May 2015 (UTC) 398:I'm fine with that too. 1554:What is going on here? 1487:in the next subsection 1200:some other referendums 813:true reason was ...". 670:different talk section 345: 1070:referendum results". 340: 42:of past discussions. 2446:Biased name and lead 2016:regular verification 1198:And also lower than 3373:I did not say what 2290:Difficult to answer 2006:After February 2018 1775:parameter below to 1455:Aleksandr Grigoryev 1431:Aleksandr Grigoryev 1390:Aleksandr Grigoryev 1386:archived discussion 827:My very best wishes 767:My very best wishes 696:My very best wishes 525:The Washington Post 520:The Washington Post 3342:MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE 3159:MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE 2060:InternetArchiveBot 2011:InternetArchiveBot 1930:InternetArchiveBot 1827:InternetArchiveBot 1331:Mondschein English 1316:Mondschein English 312:- No, it has been 2989:Using an RfC for 2919:(Page 15 and 16) 2427:What happened to 2366:comment added by 2350: 2338:comment added by 2318: 2317: 2145:Independent State 2036: 1711: 1710: 1618:original research 1483:original research 1407:comment added by 1345:Original research 1115: 1103:comment added by 1079: 1009: 981: 952: 951: 873:Moscow Connection 845:Moscow Connection 732:Moscow Connection 717:Moscow Connection 661: 533:Moscow Connection 505:Moscow Connection 487:Moscow Connection 85: 84: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3680: 3673: 3668: 3655: 3650: 3645: 3533:] (page 15-16). 2988: 2610: 2383: 2382: 2114: 2070: 2061: 2034: 2033: 2012: 1940: 1931: 1904: 1901: 1900: 1837: 1828: 1801: 1798: 1797: 1790: 1678:Extended content 1674: 1564: 1537: 1523: 1419: 1251: 1186: 1180: 1156: 1074: 1049: 1015: 1007: 999: 993: 987: 979: 972: 963:I disagree with 938: 937: 931: 918: 862: 818: 811:the organizers' 803: 785: 751: 677: 660: 654: 651: 636: 606: 596:#Pew center poll 447: 392: 268: 239: 233: 179: 172: 134: 121: 93:Continuation of 81: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 3688: 3687: 3683: 3682: 3681: 3679: 3678: 3677: 3676: 3669: 3665: 3653: 3648: 3643: 3615: 3567: 3495: 3493:Polls by UNDP ? 3138:below infobox's 2982: 2980: 2905: 2604: 2549: 2448: 2433:AWESOMEDUDE0614 2425: 2405: 2361: 2360: 2356: 2329: 2085:sub-section of 2079: 2064: 2059: 2027: 2020:have permission 2010: 1964:this simple FaQ 1949: 1934: 1929: 1902: 1898: 1861:this simple FaQ 1846: 1831: 1826: 1799: 1795: 1784: 1754:this simple FaQ 1739: 1716: 1707: 1679: 1672: 1639: 1613: 1562: 1531: 1402: 1365:false precision 1352: 1347: 1311: 1280: 1247: 1204:Volunteer Marek 1182: 1174: 1152: 1138:MyMoloboaccount 1121: 1088: 1061: 1059:Infobox problem 1045: 1027:Piledhighandeep 1006: 995: 989: 984:Piledhighandeep 978: 968: 961: 927: 893: 858: 814: 799: 781: 747: 687: 673: 658: 652: 632: 619:Volunteer Marek 602: 554: 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1575: 1574: 1517: 1516: 1502: 1501: 1492: 1491: 1490: 1478: 1444: 1443: 1442: 1441: 1409:85.140.217.149 1392:'s opinion. — 1383: 1351: 1348: 1346: 1343: 1342: 1341: 1310: 1307: 1279: 1276: 1260: 1259: 1258: 1257: 1256: 1255: 1239: 1238: 1237: 1236: 1220:Please define 1215: 1214: 1195: 1194: 1193: 1192: 1191: 1190: 1120: 1117: 1087: 1084: 1060: 1057: 1056: 1055: 1054: 1053: 1038: 1037: 960: 957: 956: 955: 954: 953: 892: 889: 888: 887: 886: 885: 884: 883: 868: 867: 866: 807: 794: 793: 792: 791: 790: 789: 743: 742: 727: 710: 686: 683: 682: 681: 643: 642: 641: 640: 615: 600: 599: 592: 585: 578: 572: 565: 553: 547:Edit 609356766 544: 478: 466:101.98.136.213 456: 453: 452: 451: 425: 424: 423: 422: 421: 420: 419: 418: 417: 416: 415: 414: 413: 412: 411: 410: 396: 359: 358: 357: 356: 355: 354: 353: 352: 351: 350: 349: 348: 347: 346: 338: 335: 318: 304: 285: 284: 283: 282: 281: 280: 279: 278: 277: 276: 275: 274: 273: 272: 216: 215: 214: 213: 212: 211: 210: 209: 188: 187: 186: 185: 184: 183: 159: 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