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sources and reporting reliable facts rather than his own or sporadic observer's opinions, rather adding when he goes off with things like, "guaido hired a foreigner to install him in the presidential palace". That's great prose to sell a pop culture book, but not scholarly or content to be included in an encyclopedia. Or the way the
Armando Brito content was misrepresented earlier. With full command of all the sources, one has a better shot at knowing when Neuman is writing content that is backed by the preponderance of sources (DUE Weight), and when he's going off into his own opinions based on speaking with a few people. Editing really fast to get in one author's POV is likely to miss the mark on balancing sources, facts, opinions; this week's editing missed the balance, and included POV section headings. Perhaps after the current version is cleaned up, the talk page will be used more actively going forward.
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chapter is being cited, then go back to their own version to access the chapter. Which does the greater service to editors and readers? Because then the next step in most of the content being added to Neuman is to sort which is purely opinion and needs attribution and balancing vs. other opinions for due weight, and which is fact that can be stated in WikiVoice, which in most cases means also reading the footnote sections. Where one will discover just how much pure opinion and speculation Neuman is writing. The point being, all of this content being added to Neuman requires checking, and it's not a lot to ask someone in good faith to simply add the chapter when citing Neuman. But then we can't demand good faith editing; only ask, to make the work easier on all the rest of us.
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to check Neuman content. I have the ebook and it is not paginated; I cannot verify content based on page nos only. At multiple other articles, it is easily seen how to add the
Chapter description. For anyone else who has the book, I encourage perusal of the scanty footnotes, to understand the level
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Although I agree all involved in the back-and-forth should talk it through with a focus on individual propositions, there is a bit of hyperbole here. It looks to me that there are 15 Neuman citations. There are more than 466 citations in the article (some are cited multiple times here, as is Neuman).
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I’m not citing policy, I’m describing your actions. If we were going to remove sources with a potential bias from
Venezuelan articles, there would be no articles given how polarized the topic is. This is a professional writing a book from their sources and whether you agree with their personal views
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So, we can do the reader a service by simply indicating the chapter when we cite it, which is simply not a lot of extra work (copy-paste), or we can expect everyone who wants to verify content if they have a different version to know how to and to want to load up an Amazon preview, figure out which
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It's not only the number of citations as much as restructuring the entire article to reflect Neuman's POV. And there is not a problem in citing Neuman (when properly attributed as opinion and weighed against other sources) in those portions of his book when he's done good research and footnoted his
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For news stories, articles are supposed to summarize what mainstream media report. That means that articles will reflect whatever inaccuracies and bias they have. Knowledge (XXG) does not have experts on the ground or any way of verifying what news media report. So articles will only be as good as
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This article was created after Maduro was sworn in to an additional term in 2019, which the opposition refused to see as legitimate. It was a crisis because there was a dispute about whether the office was vacant. While Maduro's recent election has been questioned, he has yet to be sworn in to an
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saying that opposition parties were considering in withdrawing recognition to GuaidĂł as president of
Venezuela. With upcoming presidential elections in 2024, I think that we can decide to finally put an end date to the presidential crisis and the infobox, specifically on 5 January 2023, date when
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You are synthesizing an argument about Neuman in an attempt to minimize his reliability. Bias does not equal reliability and the book is very thorough, dedicating many of its pages with interviews of US and opposition officials from a respected journalist. Please stop your dismissive approach.
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even points out how most sources are news articles while this a dedicated publication on the subject from Neuman, which most likely went through a more stringent review process especially given the sensitive nature of talking to officials. JA also says that there is not an undue amount of
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If the point is you're having a hard time verifying because your Kindle has different pagination, and that you want a chapter title so that you can page through your electronic copy and find relevant portions: you can address that through the Amazon preview method I describe
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show how to more completely cite Neuman's book, as ebooks don't contain page numbers, it is hard to locate the content you cite if you don't provide chapters-- page numbers alone don't agree across different versions. When citing Neuman, please provide the chapter as done at
911:, and the article is now to a point that it is difficult to know to which version to revert to correct these problems. Neuman's book has a place in the article; it should not be the basis for most of the article, and Neuman's views have been extensively added as fact (
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I've explained to you that I don't have a paginated copy; I can verify text if you provide chapters. Considering that almost every time you have cited Neuman, I have had to correct it, if you are unwilling to list the page numbers, I will be forced to resort to a
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I can understand the temptation to read one version of complex events, and think that account answers everything, but a long series of changes here need to be reverted and discussed individually, to remove the UNDUE weight now given to one account, which
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the crisis rather than its end result. They're clearly important to list prominently in the article, I just don't see how they belong in that part of the template - it'd be like listing individual battles in the "result" section of a war.
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The vast majority of sources are news articles. The vast majority of sources date from 2020 or earlier, mostly from 2019. This book is one of our most recent sources and -- at book length -- is necessarily a more thorough treatment.
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But that's normal, if you're only considering reliable sources those that broadcast and amplify the western point of view, in the end when it comes to other countries, wikipedia is just a modern mouthpiece of state department.
1113:. I have had to correct almost every Neuman citation you have added; please read the footnotes in the book (which are scanty), sort opinion from fact, and take care to accurately reflect the source when its use is appropriate.
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Alternatively, if the point is wanting to add chapter titles to the citations so it will be easier for readers who are in a similar position to you and reading from Kindle, I think that's nice. But it's not incumbent upon
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most kind of you; see how easy it is? I could do it myself always, but it seems I'm chasing my tail from article after article, cleaning up everywhere, so I prefer to teach others the tricks of the trade ... thx again,
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here (a polite way of saying edit warring) to introduce and give UNDUE weight to one journalist's opinions (Neuman), while removing less biased sources in favor of Neuman's account. Neuman is a journalist who is
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will be the word used in the name for whatever the 2024 and ongoing article becomes. We may need a "Venezuelan presidential crisis (2024–)", but as the situation evolves, a different name may emerge. The word
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or can anyone suggest a better name? Once we solve that over there, we can address this in here. I am still not convinced that "crisis" is the best word, but coming up empty on alternates.
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for each instance. That's not a model for collaborative editing; if another editor requests more information for verifiability, please provide it to minimize disruption.
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If you understand I'm removing content solely based on the author bias, then you aren't fully reading or understanding the discussion, and I can't address that problem.
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This policy does not apply to talk pages and other pages which evaluate article content and sources, such as deletion discussions or policy noticeboards.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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That's not a correction, it's an addition. I haven't heard the term free world in a while. Feeling nostalgia for Cold War terminology.
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It makes sense to me that we would want to cite this 2022 book significantly, when I compare it to the other sources in the article.
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has the chapter titles and page numbers. Consult the page number in the citation and then you can refer to the electronic chapter.
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For example, almost all of
Chapter 20 is quoting Shannon opinion, with clear sour grapes on board after he was shown the door.
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Thanks for the help, JArthur, but here's what that means, using two chapters we've cited extensively elsewhere as an example:
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additional term and therefore history hasn't repeated itself yet. We can revisit this discussion if and when that happens.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Here is an easier way to check citations from the physical copy to a Kindle version, instead of requesting chapter titles.
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The comment is made that Neuman's book "should not be the basis for most of the article." There is no threat of that.
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We might also update the "resulted in" infobox; I'm not sure the number of recognitions are still worth listing
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1570:: I agree with the name but I think it is too soon to tell, for the same reason that it is too soon to make a
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GuaidĂł's term would be up for renewal. Any details regarding the consequences can likewise be discussed here.
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As I explained before, this is the normal collaborative process by which we discuss sources on talk page.
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Why 2023? The interim government was dissolved in 2022, and the article doesn't mention any 2023 events.
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on
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on
Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on
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had this conversation more than once, and you even thanked me for the explanation only a few weeks ago
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to add, anyone interested could do the same using what I am now calling the "Amazon preview method."
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Chapter 30, The Screw-up at Macuto is pages 267 to 274 in my version, 273 to 281 in the hard copy.
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and have a look at that article. Does "Aftermath" and a few other sections (fraud stuff) become
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I think there is only a hard copy physical version, so there shouldn't be any doubt here.
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I ended up getting excited about this idea and simply added the chapter titles myself.
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Chapter 20, Not
Anymore is pages 180 to 189 in my version, 185 to 194 in the hard copy.
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A news item involving Venezuelan presidential crisis was featured on Knowledge (XXG)'s
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I may be misperceiving the disagreement between you two regarding chapter titles.
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Talk:2024 Venezuelan presidential election#Naming a post-election article
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I've added the page numbers, which are more specific than a chapter.
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ZERO discussion of these controversial edits on talk as of 26 October
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Correction: most of the free world "refused to see as legitimate".
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from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
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is occurring frequently in sources, as but one example.
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also at times still puts Neuman's opinions in WikiVoice
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On 1 August 2024, it was proposed that this article be
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information. So what other argument can you provide?
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30:This is the
1502:fgnievinski
1452:move review
1296:JArthur1984
1281:JArthur1984
1267:JArthur1984
1210:JArthur1984
1162:JArthur1984
1136:will help:
969:JArthur1984
919:, again on
913:7 September
810:section on
806:In the news
159:free images
42:not a forum
1739:Categories
1472:Bobby Cohn
921:26 October
917:24 October
889:anti-Trump
836:NoonIcarus
1683:Continued
1461:not moved
1413:disputed?
1411:currently
1201:Amazon's
860:Aquillion
800:Main Page
780:not moved
412:Venezuela
403:Venezuela
359:Venezuela
328:is rated
287:libellous
99:if needed
82:Be polite
32:talk page
1263:WMrapids
1167:WMrapids
1134:WP:SYNTH
1097:WMrapids
1054:WMrapids
1041:WMrapids
1003:WMrapids
928:WMrapids
825:End date
517:Politics
508:politics
464:Politics
197:Archives
67:get help
40:This is
38:article.
1721:Georgia
1697:Georgia
1642:Georgia
1605:Georgia
1576:ReyHahn
1554:Georgia
1521:Georgia
1332:Georgia
1307:Georgia
1240:Georgia
1185:Georgia
1146:Georgia
1119:Georgia
1073:Georgia
1026:Georgia
988:Georgia
945:Georgia
802:in the
738:on the
633:on the
544:on the
439:on the
330:B-class
234:90Â days
165:WPÂ refs
153:scholar
1541:crisis
1257:above.
1109:We've
1007:please
909:WP:BRD
880:WP:BRD
855:during
336:scale.
137:Google
1718:Sandy
1694:Sandy
1639:Sandy
1602:Sandy
1551:Sandy
1546:fraud
1518:Sandy
1329:Sandy
1304:Sandy
1237:Sandy
1182:Sandy
1143:Sandy
1116:Sandy
1070:Sandy
1023:Sandy
985:Sandy
942:Sandy
851:there
770:from
768:moved
317:This
202:Index
180:JSTOR
141:books
95:Seek
1726:Talk
1702:Talk
1661:talk
1647:Talk
1628:talk
1619:Wait
1610:Talk
1580:talk
1568:Wait
1559:Talk
1537:Wait
1526:Talk
1506:talk
1476:talk
1424:talk
1382:talk
1366:talk
1337:Talk
1312:Talk
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1245:Talk
1214:talk
1190:Talk
1171:talk
1151:Talk
1124:Talk
1101:talk
1078:Talk
1045:talk
1031:Talk
993:Talk
973:talk
950:Talk
887:and
864:talk
840:talk
778:was
730:High
625:High
536:High
173:FENS
147:news
84:and
1728:)
1715:.
1704:)
1691:.
1657:TFD
1649:)
1624:TFD
1612:)
1591:at
1574:.--
1561:)
1528:)
1492:or
1400:at
1378:TFD
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923:).
431:Top
276:BLP
187:TWL
1741::
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1500:.
1488:→
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183:·
177:·
169:·
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139:(
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20:)
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