1751:. Sure, it's got a publisher and an ISBN, but I don't see the editorial oversight that's required of a WP:RS. It's a collection of essays. The forward says (page 25 in the ebook edition I have) "The book ... contains more than sixty essays or statements by people who participated". In the introduction (page 52), the author says, "When deciding what to write about, each contributor made his and her own decisions ... While I cannot agree with everything contained in what follows ... there is nothing of import presented here that I know to be egregiously in error." So, it's a collection of first-person recollections. An interesting and valuable piece of literature, but not the kind of
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however is unclear: like radioactivity in the tunnels... one article says it is a myth and another has a student account. This article does not explain the radiation issue clearly yet makes the bold claim in the introduction that tunnels were closed due to "residual radiation". That is not in any of the RS. Finally, most of the opening paragraph is a direct copy and it should be rewritten. In particular this is directly from one reference: "Columbia
University has an extensive tunnel system underneath its campus connecting many of its buildings, used by the university as conduits for steam, electricity, telecommunications, and other infrastructure"
2338:) is that somebody other than me needs to do the review. To be honest, I'm finding this whole thing kind of frustrating. This has been a problematic article for a long time. The article history is witness to how much crap has been added to the article over the years. I went through a few iterations of cleaning it up, and much the same crap was added back. I was rather surprised to see it pass what was clearly a defective GA review. I cleaned up the things I found, but it needs a clean review by a disinterested reviewer. I am sorry that DYK's workflow is being inconvenienced by this, but that's really not a factor in a GA review. --
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1747:. First, there's no page number so it's hard to verify a single fact from a 500+ page book. I got a copy of the book from the library and eventually found what I assume is the passage being referred to on page 350. It talks about the phone lines being tapped, but doesn't say anything about the tunnels being used. Moreover, I'm not even sure the book ranks as a
2320:, to clarify, are we waiting on some other reviewers to leave feedback, or are we waiting for the items you listed to be resolved? I can take a greater look at the article myself, maybe even add some things, but then I would have to recuse as a reviewer. Or I can just place my concerns here and let the original nominator or others resolve the issues. –
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been copied from somewhere else, because if you look at the history of the article that phrasing comes from me reworking the previous lede that presumably dates from the late 2000s. Unfortunately, it is a little difficult to tell given that half of the article's history has been wiped due to earlier BLP violations.
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If I may be so bold, you seem to have a vested interest in getting this to happen, which puzzles me. What would be useful is working on fixing the problems I found. To be honest, I don't think this got a very good review the first time around, so we shouldn't be short-changing the second review. --
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That ALT was not interesting to me. I accidentally identified the wrong ALT. I meant to say ALT1 one was interesting and confirmed - - Amelia
Earhart - was interesting to me. But there is another ALT agreed upon now that does not include 1 or 2. In addition to that hook not being interesting to me, I
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The claim about the radioactivity in the tunnels has been removed from the lede. As for the first sentence, almost every source I could find that uses that wording appears to be based off of an earlier version of the article. For the sentence you quoted, it's impossible for that exact wording to have
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I am not able to throw myself wholeheartedly into this discussion, as I am suffering from some physical health issues as well as personal business that prevent me from spending extensive amounts of time on-Wiki. I will note that the presence of an image is not a GA requirement, and so removal of the
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In DYK I was not high on the image based on the visual difficulty/intricacy. It seems Roy Smith has discovered that the image is not properly licensed and so should be removed. The article itself could be reviewed for GA without the image, but it seems Roy Smith has also found other GA deficiencies.
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Approve ATL2 which is verified and interesting. The article is interesting. and was improved to GA on the 24th. It is neutral. The picture is inadequate - so if this runs, I would say no to the map/photo. QPQ is done and the article has the correct inline citations and claims are verified. One thing
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There's also not that much explanation about how the buildings are related. Granted, the map did alleviate that issue, and I know where the buildings are, but most people would not. Even if the map were included, an in-text description of where the buildings are in relation to the campus would help
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If that is the primary issue, then the question is whether simply removing the map would degrade the quality of the article so much as to fail one of the GA criteria. If it doesn't, then it may not hurt to remove the map if it violates WP:IMAGEOR, and a new map that complies with that policy can be
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Given that there has been no progress in the nomination in almost two months (!) and given how the GAR appears to be heading towards a delist over issues with the article, it appears that there is no path forward for the nomination at this time. There is no prejudice against renomination if the GAR
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agreed, and that only gets worse for GAR—no glory in heavy-duty maintenance work like this. at least GA reviewers get some satisfaction of assisting in the designation of a new GA. It's the difference between cutting the ribbon on a new highway and actually spending the necessary money to maintain
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I don't understand. You were the one who started this GAR so it would be expected that you would be the one who would state if your original concerns have been addressed or not. As far as I can tell you haven't asked anyone to give a second review so far (please correct me if I'm wrong) so I don't
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for that. The caption includes, "Information gathered over the course of many expeditions by many people". Who, exactly? The source cited for the image caption is the
Columbia Spectator, which I would consider a WP:RS for some things, but the cited article is, as far as I can tell, a letter from a
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PS, I share your frustration with how long GA reviews take. I've currently got something in the review queue that's been there for over two months, and it looks like it's going to be another 3 months before it gets to the top of the queue. It is unfortunate that GA doesn't have enough qualified
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It's not the image per-se that's the OR, it's the information it conveys. The paths of tunnels are traced out. Where did those paths come from? I'm fine with somebody redrawing a map to enhance aspects of it, or to avoid copyright issues. But, we need to know where the information came from.
2483:: I thought I'd have time to address the issues, but I'm not finding any space/energy for it. Doesn't look like others are able to address the problems raised by epicgenius and roysmith, either. Let's delist; the next person to come along and try and get this to GA can use this as a guide.
1499:(the version of the map in that article is also the one that Schiraldi uploaded I think). No idea how reliable that source is, but it could be used to explain that this is a claimed map of the tunnel system, without circular referencing as the map seems older than Knowledge. —
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The thing is, the longer this GAR takes, the longer the DYK nomination takes as well. It would likely come to a point where the nomination may have to be closed for staleness. We're trying to cut the DYK backlog and seeing this GAR move forward would help in addressing that.
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as DYK reviewer and GA reviewer—The map appears to have been uploaded by someone under the username "Mike
Schiraldi", so my guess is that Schiraldi decided to recreate their old map and upload it to wikipedia, where no one ever thought to check whether it was the original.
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In any case, another question is whether the article could just be GA without the image. That would separate the "reliability of the map" question from the "should this be a GA" question, and we could just remove the image until this is cleared up.
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absent information to justify this specific image's inclusion, I've removed it. If we ever uncover new information that allows us to redraw/re-add the map, we can always do so. In the meantime, we should probably see what else we can address.
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student, so there's no real editorial oversight. And it doesn't even include the map itself, just a mention that "a highly circulated map was compiled (credited to one Mike
Schiraldi)". That's not the kind of WP:RS on which GA is founded.
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The lead fails to provide an adequate summary of the sections encompassed by the body. Actually, it's only three sentences long, which is approximately one sentence for each section. My recommendation is at least two paragraphs of 3-4
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I understand. Yeah, it's frustrating that the GA backlog is growing again and that there's not enough reviewers to address the issues. I can leave some comments here in a bit so the original nominator or other editors can fix them. –
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632:, it would be (or at least should be) deleted. Yet, that's exactly what the image says, in graphical form, with no better sourcing than, "Based on the original map by Mike Schiraldi...." in the image legend. It's basically
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I noticed that, in general, there doesn't really seem to be a description of the network. E.g. which buildings are known to be connected by tunnels. If appropriate, the number of buildings or the approximate length can be
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you state that ALT2 is "verified". Can you be more specific? I am looking at a copy of the book now. I found some passages that talk about phone lines being tapped, but no indication that the tunnels were involved. --
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I fully agree that we seem to have no reliable source for "this map shows what the tunnel system looks like". There may be sources for something much weaker like "this is a widely distributed map of rumored tunnels".
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Original images created by a
Wikipedian are not considered original research, so long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments, the core reason behind the "No original research"
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understand why you are saying "it will be reviewed when somebody reviews it". I was no longer even talking about the DYK review but rather this GAR itself since I noticed it's been stuck for a while.
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I don't really have a vested interest in this article, it's more that its DYK nomination is one of the oldest currently active and it would be really nice if it could move forward sooner or later.
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2451:. Here, you would not know that the Morningside campus is bisected by 116th Street, or that it was even split by that street in the first place, unless you knew about the campus already.
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Would simply removing the map, as suggested by other editors above, resolve the issues and allow the nomination to be passed once the "some additional items" issues are addressed?
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The oldest section, connecting Buell Hall and St. Paul's Chapel, was built prior to
Columbia University's 1896 move to its current Morningside Heights campus in Manhattan...
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in the DYK nomination. Overall, I don't get warm and fuzzy feelings that due diligence has been performed in the rush to approve a fun story about contemporary culture.
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applies to images, but it should. If I were to write in the text of the article, "It is rumored that there is a tunnel connecting Low
Library to Uris Hall", without a
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I also wish you well. Please take care of your health before you worry about minor things like wikipedia articles. Your health really is the important thing. --
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Have all the concerns been addressed? I noticed that the DYK nomination hasn't had a comment in almost a month and the nominator hasn't edited since
January.
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Also, the history doesn't talk a lot about the construction of the tunnels. Even if they were built in secret, I'd hope there would be some coverage on that.
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I agree that the article is in far better shape as far as sourcing goes than when I performed major surgery on it back in
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2461:. And in a related vein, describing some key terms (e.g. describing the Manhattan Project as a program for nuclear development) would help readers a lot.
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I'm not sure how else to put this, but please stop pestering me. The article needs to be reviewed. It will be reviewed when somebody reviews it. --
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Thanks for the message. You can say rumors of radioactivity. Great work on the article. Also: I should let others decide if the photo is sufficient.
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on which we should be basing factual statements, especially considering that the factual statements we make aren't even supported by the source. --
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The issue with the map is what got me interested in this, but the more I dig, the more problems I find. Some of them I've enumerated below. I
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Before 1954, when the government of New York City gave Columbia permission to close off the portion of 116th Street that ran across its campus
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As mentioned above, I've come up with some comments for this page. Unfortunately, I did notice some deficiencies in coverage. For instance:
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says nothing about Buell Hall or St. Paul's Chapel, nor does it say anything about when Columbia moved to the current campus. --
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In any case, now that the images have been removed, apart from the asof templates, does anything else need to be resolved first?
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map would not be disqualifying unless RoySmith has found extensive other issues that cannot be repaired in a timely fashion. —
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It was actually in 1953 that the street was closed (though the new walkway may have been completed in 1954). I've fixed that.
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could not verify it without the book. I will need to be more careful, and I am thankful for other editors like yourself.
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The goal of this review is to ensure that the article meets GA standards. DYK's publication schedule is not a factor.
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results in the article's GA status being kept, or if the article is delisted as a GA, being brought back to GA status.
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Looks to me like the map was uploaded on 2005 June 8, and the link you've supplied is from 2013 September 17.
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This is "based on the original map by Mike Schiraldi". So, where do we find the original map if we want to
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a friendly reminder that talking about how fast a process should go does not, in fact, make it go faster.
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student staff at WKCR, Columbia's radio station, used the tunnels to tap the university's telephone system
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Closing nomination as not successful at this time. If it achieves GA status again, it can be renominated.
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The short answer to your question is, "no". My core concern was the map, which is still there, is still
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2436:- Might want to clarify that it's the Morningside Heights campus as opposed to, say, Manhattanville.
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1575:. Something doesn't become reliable just because enough wikis have copied it from each other. --
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Ok with me and it is more interesting. I just verified it with the reference as well.
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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below.
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I have concerns about the map image. We don't seem to have any real policy for how
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In 1953, Columbia closed off the portion of 116th Street that ran across its campus
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yet fixed the part about the passageway between Buell Hall and St. Paul's Chapel.
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cared about this map enough to impersonate Schiraldi—but not enough to care about
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thirded, we'll all be here whenever you're ready to come back :) you come first
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
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immensely, especially for those who have never visited the campus before.
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There's a number of places where books are cited. They all appear to be
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A map, created by a student in 1999, of the Columbia University tunnels
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I have added a cite for the 1896 campus dedication. However, I have
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I'd actually prefer to promote ALT0 as a quirky, if you'd tick it?
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Time periods or years could be added for some statements, such as
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the contents. The ability to verify information is a core policy.
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As I said, it depends on whether we believe what that link says. —
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Knowledge:Good article reassessment/Columbia University tunnels/1
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There is at least one place that describes the map as reliable:
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templates, noting the date of the corroborating reference. --
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https://magazine.columbia.edu/article/hidden-histories-columbia
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My understanding of the process ("Community reassessment" at
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This has nothing to do with licensing. It was to do with
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doesn't say anything which supports that statement. --
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and we'll park the nomination until that's resolved.
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of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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636:. I'm tempted to delete the image. Comments? --
2447:The above point also applies to statements like
2186:in the two place that appeared to need them. --
1331:, so should have been disqualifying for GA. --
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663:Thank you for making the page far less useful.
2241:Re-ping due to a typo in my previous comment.
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855:https://books.google.com/books?id=sIFtzQEACAAJ
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1571:This is why we have rules for what makes a
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568:and see a list of open tasks.
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811:: ... that as a student at
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50:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
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600:project's importance scale
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243:. Editors may also seek a
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679:Did you know nomination
416:New York (state) portal
2516:Delisted good articles
2421:Comments by Epicgenius
1631:I am sorry to hear it
837:: ... that during the
580:New York City articles
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348:This article is rated
75:avoid personal attacks
2434:underneath its campus
1955:because there are no
1785:Some additional items
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329:Delisted good article
279:Articles for deletion
237:good article criteria
100:Neutral point of view
549:New York City portal
298:Good article nominee
105:No original research
1304:restored the image
813:Columbia University
384:Columbia University
1259:Most recent review
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258:Article milestones
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19:This is the
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819:frequented
775:uranium-238
308:May 7, 2022
241:renominated
148:free images
31:not a forum
2510:Categories
2467:Epicgenius
2430:sentences.
2366:Epicgenius
2322:Epicgenius
1851:Epicgenius
1815:Epicgenius
1723:Epicgenius
1709:Epicgenius
1699:WP:IMAGEOR
1635:GhostRiver
1416:GhostRiver
1352:GhostRiver
1327:and fails
1173:Flibirigit
793:using the
791:Pupin Hall
779:chloroform
719:Flibirigit
429:U.S. state
1302:Normsupon
951:Normsupon
931:Normsupon
875:Normsupon
769:... that
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2493:contribs
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1441:sourcing
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1397:contribs
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1344:Pinging
1333:RoySmith
1267:: Delist
1109:RoySmith
1092:RoySmith
986:contribs
861:Reviewed
853:Source:
827:Source:
801:Source:
715:rejected
651:Primefac
649:Agreed.
638:RoySmith
433:New York
318:Delisted
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2495:) (she/
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1704:policy.
1677:) (she/
1641:Bruxton
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1427:Bruxton
1418:, and
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1369:) (she/
1348:Bruxton
1238:history
1219:history
1205:Article
1116:Bruxton
1085:Bruxton
1068:Schwede
1033:Bruxton
988:) (she/
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957:Bruxton
926:Bruxton
912:Bruxton
892:Bruxton
783:mercury
739:Comment
598:on the
469:on the
350:C-class
266:Process
154:WP refs
142:scholar
2481:Delist
2440:added.
2356:(talk)
2343:(talk)
2336:WP:GAR
2297:hinata
2291:Naruto
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2013:(talk)
1988:hinata
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1760:(talk)
1728:verify
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