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655:– It would be better to expand the scope of this article. Kirchnerism does not attack just ClarĂn, but many other media as well, such as La NaciĂłn or Perfil. There are topics that involve the press as a whole, such as the refusal of the governors to give press conferences, or the use of government ads to finance pro-government press and punish the independent press (there is a ruling of the Supreme Court on a trial about that, but which was initiated by the Perfil newspaper, not ClarĂn). In fact, the pro-government press is also a topic to talk about.
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be constitutional). Also, some conflicts involve non kirchnerist parties currently in office on provinces, in fact one of the resignations mentioned on the article is from a
Socialist,not Kirchnerist, ministry. Restricting the article to show only those conflicts that affect the Kirchnerist Executive Branch is biased. Regarding "independent" I also agree that's violative of NPOV.
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like "controversy" more than conflict, as it doesn't convey such a negative sentiment, which could also be taken as a judgement, but conflict is ok as well. I don't mind putting "ClarĂn" instead of "part of the media" because ClarĂn is deinitely at the center of this and makes the title much clearer...
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I rather use
Argentine Government because the issue is not restricted to Kirchnerist party or the Executive Branch. It involves the Congress (who voted the new media law with approval of part of the opposing parties), judicial system (which, for example, just a few days ago declared the media law to
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Sources from
Argentina have the advantage that they provide full coverage on the topic (each thing X says or does, each thing that the Congress or the Courts do or refuse to do, etc.), whenereas foreign ones may notice only specific big events and dismiss others. But I agree that, whenever possible,
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part of it. In fact, it's a competitor. La NaciĂłn is an involved party only in the Papel Prensa operation (aimed mainly against Clarin, and La Nacion simply was caught in the crossfire), it's completely unrelated with all the other disputes, and their relation with the conflict as a whole would be
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First of all, the preponderance of
Spanish language sources has led to acquiring English language sources so that other editors can at least quickly check information. As to the reliability of a nationally and internationally recognized columnist is entirely left up to the editing process. I would
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I would suggest we try to find sources differents than the
Argentine executive branch of course but also from Clarin and La Nacion which are obviously clearly biased. The way they manipulate the external news for example is for laughing, they only quote the part of the article that suits them. Im
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I think that using “kirchnerism” here is wrong... There's really nothing concrete called like that... Here we have a government in place, with a certain administration. I guess it also may be considered non-NPOV as well, as it sounds like saying "this is not our government, it's 'kirchnerism'". I
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to have an inherent bias, but the use of a source in quoting directly from the source makes it a verifiable and acceptable reference. In regards to external links, they are what they are, since they represent a particular organization or entity; having a number of links that represent the diverse
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Independent: "Free from outside control; not depending on another's authority." If someone/something is independent or not, is not an opinion, its a fact. What word should we use to distinguish press that depends on government subsidies from press which
1178:
Kirchnerism means the
Kirchner's administration. It did not exist before it, and it remains to be seen if it survives the day that a president from another political line takes government (Peronism did, but Menemism did not). If that happens,
1534:, who not only did not give reasons for doing so in talk: he didn't even participate in the renaming discussions. (He had also tagged it as "NPV-title", but I removed that tag, since the article was apparently satisfactorily renamed.)
1364:. The current title isn't great, but the proposed title would be worse, because there have been closely connected disputes with a variety of independent voices - not just ClarĂn (although ClarĂn is obviously a high-profile example).
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references in
Spanish should be replaced by references in English that inform about the same thing, when such sources appear. I also point that this is a dispute between the government and Grupo ClarĂn, and La NaciĂłn is
1157:
Agree that we shouldn't use "kirchnerism". But conflict is properly used. Controversy fits better for single-event scandals. This is a long conflict. I like "Press conflict during
Cristina Fernández administration".--
914:– We need an unbiased title. "Independent media" is very biased in the context of this issue, and "kirchherism" doesn't seem to be very appropriate, as it's really the Argentine government legitimately elected.
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Yes, it should be renamed and heavily edited. It's also not right, maybe, to define this as a conflict between "kirchnerism" and ClarĂn, as well. What could a new title look like? I don't know... =)
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1191:; but if the term is misleading we may replace "independent media" with "free press", whose meaning is universal. By the way, I did not select the current name, it was Nyttend, see
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not happy with this goverment but the opposition is regrettable. And isnt this
Anastasia O'Grady the one who support the closure of honduras radios during the recent coup ? --
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reliable sources, as they are government-funded newspapers and the government is involved in this ongoing conflict. If we're including them, then it would only be fair to cite
1103:"independent" either without being warned for being POV. The title still needs work, though--as I said, I don't think the article should be expanded to include conflicts in
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964:: I support niqueco's rationale of renaming. However, the proposed title was overly wide, as that would include any conflicts between the media and
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1050:. I won't say La Nacion or ClarĂn as "independent" in the English usage either; they're not owned by the government, sure, but we'd call it
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Argentinian administration, while this title only deals with the conflicts during the
Kirchner and Fernandez de Kirchner administrations.--
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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elements of this story is reasonable. FWiW, please note that there is a vast difference between quotation marks and their use: " and ″.
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1403:"The Kirchner government" is ambiguous and can also include Cristina's husband's. This article is limited to Cristina's administration.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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Unless someone can explain how the article as it presently stands is unbalanced, I propose that the "unbalanced" tag be removed. –
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gets many more hits in Google Books. But that's not the point. This isn't a suitable NPOV title. en.wp isn't a political soapbox.
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I've added an update tag, mainly because much of the article is written in the present tense, but clearly relates to past events.
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I don't know if I like "Conflict between Argentine Government and part of local media", but I can't think of anything better...
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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I agree using "Argentine Government" since some issues mentioned on the article relate also to political opposition.
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There was a much unbiased title before: "Controversies between ClarĂn and Kirchnerism". It was there until the user
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Independent in independent media is a weasel word and makes assumptions that are not backed with a proper source.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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The term "Kirchnerism" exists and is much more used than this "Obamaism" that I have heard for the first time.
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The conflict is with this administration, and with independent press, I cannot see how that is bias.--
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moved it to the current biased an unacceptable title. Maybe we should just go back to that one.
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I would rather use "Conflict between Argentine Government and part of local media".
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1095:: I would use this as an analogy for the "independent" issue: nobody would call
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Sources from all sides of the controversy should therefore be considered. FWiW
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
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I would use the title "Conflict between Argentine Government and local media".
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To me "free" is as laudatory as "independent" such that it's not NPOV either.
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Show, by evidence, that "Kirchnerism" means the Kirchners' administrations
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https://web.archive.org/web/20100827120944/http://www.leydemedios.com.ar/
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media. Using "independent" to call them is clearly violative of NPOV.--
994:. The current title was propoused by me. I also suggested other titles:
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to at least get "ism" out of title. Sure sources could be found for
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of the Kirchners, but in English usage it would mean the political
1448:, this seems the best yet, but similar titles would also be okay.
1256:. (I still don't like the word Kirchnerism in the article title. )
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Or better: Controversies between Argentine government and ClarĂn.
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as well. Otherwise, they shouldn't really be used as references.
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Conflict between Fernández de Kirchner government and the media
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Conflict between Fernández de Kirchner government and the media
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Conflict between Fernández de Kirchner government and the media
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Conflict between the Argentine Government and independent media
1283:- anything that gets "Kirchnerism" out of article title ASAP.
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and contribute to a wider array of articles like those on our
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Government-media fight on Cristina Fernández administration
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Conflict between Kirchner government and independent media
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Two hundred years of Argentina, Seven Years of Kirchnerism
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it may make sense to reconsider. "Independent" here means
1034:: Maybe Argentinians would use "Kirchnerism" to mean the
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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too, but such sources are self-disqualifying for NPOV.
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Press conflict during Cristina Fernández administration
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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Controversies between Argentine government and ClarĂn
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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1302:Suggest that the next User seeing this page moves
1107:administrations, which should be many in number.--
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1490:In ictu oculi
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1450:In ictu oculi
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1648:source check
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1326:Cambalachero
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1196:Cambalachero
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709:— Preceding
705:
691:
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671:Cambalachero
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557:El Argentino
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294:Mackay Radio
286:
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119:
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96:
40:WikiProjects
1517:move review
1408:loaded word
881:move review
1698:Categories
1685:Report bug
1552:Update tag
1260:doesn't?--
1105:successive
1052:commercial
1048:Juan Peron
341:Multimedia
315:Sound bite
120:to do list
1668:this tool
1661:this tool
1598:dead link
1425:Salvadori
1366:bobrayner
1243:Salvadori
1122:Salvadori
1097:The Times
1069:Salvadori
983:Salvadori
894:Tiggerjay
539:MBelgrano
126:Argentina
104:Argentina
59:Argentina
1674:Cheers.—
1558:Pincrete
1470:Kirchner
1339:Obamaism
1308:Obamaism
1044:Peronism
1040:movement
935:Relisted
918:Relisted
723:contribs
711:unsigned
658:Relisted
574:TomasBat
1602:tag to
1584:my edit
1532:Diegodm
1463:Support
1442:Support
1419:Curtisi
1285:WP:NPOV
1281:Support
1237:Curtisi
1211:Comment
1141:niqueco
1116:Curtisi
1101:The Sun
1093:Comment
1063:Curtisi
1032:Comment
977:Curtisi
948:niqueco
833:niqueco
819:niqueco
796:Niqueco
774:Drkbugs
736:Niqueco
662:Jenks24
362:Answer
301:Cleanup
153:on the
114:sign up
30:C-class
1594:Added
1539:Herzen
1413:Samuel
1362:Oppose
1262:Neo139
1231:Samuel
1187:, not
1176:Oppose
1159:Neo139
1110:Samuel
1080:Pozzoe
1057:Samuel
1016:Neo139
971:Samuel
923:Tyrol5
848:Pozzoe
754:Pozzoe
715:Pozzoe
565:ClarĂn
335:Verify
36:scale.
498:Jor70
355:Other
228:Media
219:Media
178:Media
111:, or
1562:talk
1543:talk
1494:talk
1478:talk
1454:talk
1370:talk
1347:talk
1330:talk
1316:talk
1292:talk
1266:talk
1200:talk
1193:here
1181:then
1163:talk
1099:and
1084:talk
1020:talk
943:talk
898:talk
852:talk
800:talk
778:talk
758:talk
740:talk
719:talk
675:talk
666:talk
589:talk
585:Bzuk
555:and
543:talk
523:talk
519:Bzuk
502:talk
322:NPOV
145:High
1642:RfC
1612:to
1509:.
1474:BDD
1422:di
1416:di
1240:di
1234:di
1119:di
1113:di
1066:di
1060:di
980:di
974:di
966:any
939:BDD
689:.
561:not
534:not
468:???
247:???
1700::
1655:.
1650:}}
1646:{{
1600:}}
1596:{{
1564:)
1545:)
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1332:)
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1228:--
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916:--
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721:•
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1198:(
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1082:(
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569:â™
541:(
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476:.
357::
338::
325::
304::
291::
255:.
157:.
123:.
42::
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