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optimisation, transmission contingencies, pumped storage policy, load levelling, demand reduction, SCADA systems, and uplift management, just to name a few topics off the top of my head, all play a part in control of the national grid, but are all very subsidiary, if mentioned at all, in this article. As such, the article runs into big problems with
712:
I think what this is supposed to be indicating is that a single 1000 MW unit is a lot more likely to disappear off the grid without warning than are 1000, 1 MW units scattered over hundreds of square miles. It doesn't matter what the prime mover is, if a big block of capacity (or transmission!) drops
201:
page. I didn't even read it all, but it dwarfed the rest of the article, wasn't wikified, didn't use an encyclopedic voice, appeared to go into great detail regarding diesel engine operation, and appeared to include advocacy for wind power. I'm moved it here for others to clean up or remove as they
730:
The claim that
Sizewell is the biggest source of unreliability or intermittency does not really need to be referenced. It is an incontestable fact. Its well known amongs energy engineers that it is the largest single source of generation that can fall of the grid instantaneously. It is immediatly
364:
Well its there because most commentators don;t have a clue that a) diesel generators have a significant role in controlling the national grid, even quite small ones of 150 kW, and that many large credible organizations like WW do this, so wroth going into some detail. Also only about 450 Mw of such
764:
Intermittency is defined as "For the purposes of this report
National Grid has interpreted ‘intermittent’generation as renewable plant that does not have full control over its primary fuel source to the extent that it cannot plan in the longer term to run at maximum output at times of system peak."
552:
The latest STOR market report has data on how much reserve we procured in the first tender round can be found via the link below. For the first two seasons of this year there was just over 2 GW of accepted tenders with roughly two thirds from large generators (BM units) and a third from the demand
515:
I have had another look and yes it does contain far too much mention of Wessex Water. If cut quite a few out but it could do with someone else doing a bit more. It does merit some mention because it does give a clear account from a credible source - no other company has gone on record but its got
495:
I've had a look at the article and it seems to me to be packed full of a good description of how the UK grid controls itself on a daily basis, to meet varying loads with different kinds of plant. I am sure it can be tidied up a bit, but the basic facts are good, and no one who knows anything about
434:
Regarding your other points about control not mentinoed yes you are right, but this is meant to be a starting point and I am waiting for other people to add to it. Don't see why I should write it all. But I would say even many experts are unaware of the role of instantaneously disconnected loads,
787:
Sizewell B might be the biggest potential source of supply loss, and thereby set the level of frequency response required, but it is never considered an intermittent generator, unlike wind, which is radically reshaping reserve and energy considerations in the UK. There are some really bad parts of
697:
This section makes claims which are unreferenced and dubious. For example, the claim that the
Sizewell B nuclear power station is a source of intermittency and that wind is more "reliable" is likely to be challenged by any qualified electrical engineer. This section reads more as a promotional for
674:
The claim that wind power variation is not a problem at all is wrong. This is a not problem in country that use few wind power (<10%). A great part of efforts and research on electrical energy storage systems is done to deal with wind power variations, when wind penetration is 30% or more. See
458:
i would tend to disagree with the above statement - its easy to control the national grid if the load changes only slowly and predictably - you just start more power stations / stop them, maintain a spinning reserve and allow the governors to do the control. The tricky bit is dealing with sudden
251:
Having read this article a number of ocassions I have now started a major tidy up of its contents. There has been too much irrelevant information included which raises a wikipedia issues of accuracy and credibility. We need to stick to the point and not go overboard on the testing of this or that
813:
Of course intermittency is a problem, but
National Grid does not see it as a problem which cannot be dealt with at reasonable cost with already known techiques so in this context it is not a problem merely a set of technical issues to be addressed with known solutions, which dont actualy include
383:
The article contains about 4200 words, of which 2200 are about Wessex Water diesel generators reserve capacity. Reserve and frequency control constitute only a small part of grid control: topics such as the balancing mechanism, demand forecasting, transmission asset management, reactive reserve
654:
i have now put in a whole lot of what i hope are credible references. It may still appear to read too much about Wessex Water, on the other hand, to maintain credibility I think one has to name the organization that has gone on record. Whilst many other companies, including Thames Water and
731:
obvious that 1.34 Gw of wind cannot suttendly all stop at the same time. If you dispute this then provide some reference to back up your disagreement. It was the
Sizewell trip and the simaltaneouls Longannette??? trip htat caused a widespread power failure a few years back..
567:
On frequency response the total demand side load is of the order 500-550MW. The link below is to the frequency tender report for June. Figure 9 shows the level of contracted secondary response, with base level around the 550 mark, being the contracted demand side sites
217:
However, I have not yet seen anywhere a proper description of how the UK and indeed other grids are controlled, and it will clearly be a surprise to many people that diesels are in fact in very wide spread use, along with automatically sheddable loads.
410:
OK good points but all the speakers at the OU conference, including the one on diesels, have now had their presentations published in book form. they are all pretty authoritative, and edited by
Professors Boyle and Elliot of the Open University.
631:
Hi, What proportion of capacity is contributed to the grid in terms of home micro generation - either by solar cells or wind generation or water mills. Also what proportion is generated by
National Rail and water company river weir systems??
496:
the industry would dispute them. The talk upon which this article is based was reviewed by senior engineers who actually work for
National Grid, some who were at the various presentations and what I said was considered by them unremarkable.
31:
886:
This article has been marked for cleanup since 2007, so I'll have a crack at it. Also, some of the content would be better suited to other articles. Happy to discuss any changes, of course. Here is a summary my edits:
438:
Yes there is too much stuff on Wessex Water and any one can be free to cut it out. But it does need some reference to an authentic player such as WW in this market to indicate that it is a highly significant element.
231:
This is terrific stuff! It'll get chopped up and bashed about as it is forced into
Knowledge (XXG) style, but thanks for giving us this unprecedented level of detail about power supply management: it's fascinating. --
424:- viewable on line. And the following conference / convention repeated pretty much the same thing - there is no real dispute about the contents veracity - it is well known amongst people who study this sort of thing.
817:"Despite this, we believe that there were no technical barriers, including supply chain issues, to the incorporation onto the system of the level of wind required to meet targets. " from national grid
894:
Power generation and transmission statistics: Moving "general" statistics to
National Grid article. This section feels a bit like a "brain dump", so content may end up being moved to other sections.
473:
The point that is not often brought out, is that the National Grid and all other grids have well established procedures to deal with intermittency - caused largely by the power stations themselves.
891:
Lead: Re-write to summarise the article and remove (uncited) content related to National Grid in general (as opposed to the control of it). Moving the discussion about location to its own section.
365:
diesels out of an actual installed capacity of 20 GW (but not grid connected) are used and these un used diesels could have a major role in dealing with renewables induced fluctuations.
252:
which should be detailed in a separate topic altogether. Additionally there is also nothing mentioned about voltage control. I would also agree that the title should be changed to
380:
The article title is "Control of the National Grid UK". Your description in your reply suggests that is is more about 'potential future sources for reserve generation in the UK'.
285:
488:
The article title is "Control of the National Grid UK". Your description in your reply suggests that is is more about 'potential future sources for reserve generation in the UK'
221:
I feel it is also important for people to understand clearly the reason using deisels is so cheap - becasue they are already paid for, and they have to be tested on full load.
275:
395:. Who was at this talk and what did they say? Has anyone offered any significant alternative views? Is there any means of verifying the statements in this article? —
214:
all good points which I hold my hand up to, it probably is a bit too much about diesel, and does contain wind advocacy, so I am quite happy to have it edited down...
848:
553:
side (non BM (NBM)) providers. The non-BM consisting of both back up generation and sites which can reduce their electricity demand (e.g. water pumping)
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750:, in particular the novel and unorthodox use of the term 'intermittency' - please provide references from credible engineering sources for the claims.
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None of this material has any bearing at all on how the Grid is operated. What is it doing in the article? Really, it should all be removed. —
420:"Integrating renewables into the electricity system" A one day conference on Tuesday January 24th at the Open University, Milton Keynes.......
916:
Sources of intermittency on the UK National Grid: due long standing to Disputed tage, trimming text to that directly supported by references
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910:. Removing the Standing Reserve section for the same copyvio. Removing Use of the Reserve Service and Frequency Service in Practice for
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changes - ie large power station outages, or sudden demand jumps. That is why Frequency Response and Reserve Service are so important.
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It's completely unreferenced. "Content based on a talk given at an Open University Seminar" doesn't meet the requirements of
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340:, perhaps everything ought to be there, and this information can be dedicated its own section titled "Present Control."
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414:"Renewable Electricity and the Grid - the challenge of variability" Pub Earthscan. London isbn 13:978-1-84407-418-1
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http://www.nationalgrid.com/NR/rdonlyres/8EAB041D-C38E-4C50-951B-02F345FF6EF4/16803/FFR_Market_Info_Jun_2007_v1.pdf
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Anglian Water do essentially the same thing, plus hospital, Tesco, etc, they have not gone on record.
769:(page 3) Given this, the section needs to be completed re-written or deleted as it appears to be
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Power Convention 2007 10 - 11 September Imperial College, London 2007 covers these points as well.
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I think that's being a bit picky - that's a comment in the discussion, not the article itself.
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Vestas than an unbiased reference. It should be completely re-wrtitten or deleted.
675:"Energy Technology Perspectives 2008", a book by the International Energy Agency.
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I suggest part of it could be hived off to say diesel generator?
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out instantanenously, it's a problem for network stability. --
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The number of diesel generators in the UK: removing due to
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This gives quantities in recent tenders for Reserve etc:
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Not disputing actual numbers, but section appears to be
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431:You can also look it up on the Transco Web site.
312:? I am sure that as long as it is linked to from
38:National_Grid_(Great_Britain)#Control_of_the_grid
670:Sources of intermittency on the UK National Grid
646:A tiny amount ...a lot less thabn 1%...........
276:How the UK National Grid is presently controlled
336:which an article can be written. IF there is a
63:does not require a rating on Knowledge (XXG)'s
542:Letter from National Grid contracts engineer:
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847:) shouldn't this article be at
306:Control of the UK National Grid
242:fantastic piece of editing!....
26:This article was nominated for
955:Low-importance energy articles
792:prevents me from editing it. —
30:on 12 May 2015. The result of
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876:02:21, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
861:21:10, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
841:National Grid (Great Britain)
665:06:32, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
621:17:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
529:14:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
400:22:17, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
327:01:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
247:17:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
237:19:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
226:17:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
207:15:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
140:and see a list of open tasks.
650:Re edit and references added
506:20:44, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
483:20:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
469:20:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
449:16:21, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
345:04:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
294:04:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
830:20:58, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
691:12:48, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
642:01:13, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
627:Micro generation from homes
375:This creates some problems.
261:13:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
149:Template:WikiProject Energy
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598:Senior Contract Developer
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254:UK National Grid (Control)
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435:and rapid start diesels.
304:. How about moving it to
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