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2556:, you have already twice deliberately misrepresented my comments to try to make some cheap point. I suggest you stop, as your behaviour is disruptive. Nobody has suggested adding information about retroflex laterals here, but to harmonise the article with other articles on Scandinavian royalty which present their names in IPA.
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760:, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Lutheranism on Knowledge (XXG). This includes but is not limited to Lutheran churches, Lutheran theology and worship, and biographies of notable Lutherans. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the
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I don't really have a strong opinion on what photo is used but if choosing between these two I think the current one in use is superior to the one that has been repeatedly added by IP editors in every aspect other than date, since his appearance has not really changed noticeably I don't see the point
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Including a footnote with his name in IPA is consistent with common WP practice, but the main problem here is that the IPA here seems to have been done by someone with limited knowledge of
Swedish. For example, the letter F is almost always in Swedish, but in the name Gustaf it is . There are other
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It's useful in the same manner as all other information on
Knowledge (XXG): to provide knowledge to those who seek it, regardless of their intended purpose. Of course not all knowledge about a person is relevant to be included on Knowledge (XXG), but I personally think it's relevant to include how a
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Many thanks for the extra info! I knew that none of them was named
Charles "at home", and the 20th century boundary for non-translation also makes sense, it was just hard to put together the pieces since he seems to be the first in this line to whom all the aforementioned criteria applies. Also, fun
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to include
Swedish pronunciation of these names for non-Swedish readers of English Knowledge (XXG), the pronunciation should be removed as irrelevant clutter. Useful for what exactly? Knowledge (XXG) is not a language school with a duty to teach foreign words and pronunciation just for the sake of
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is needed on WP; anyone with competence in IPA and phonetics can confirm that several of the phonemes in his name don't even exist in
English. That's just a fact, bot an opinion. Whether you understand that fact or not doesn't change a thing. As your POV is just based on your misunderstanding, it
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XVI Gustaf has one further peculiar feature: he is the first listed here, in
English text as Carl -- instead of Charles. I wonder why? Also, I understand that the names Karl/Carl/Charles are cognates -- but the missing explanation why he is addressed like this (opposed to the approx 15 previous
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I agree it definitely needs citing, since the insertion said his name was pronounced Gestaf rather than Gustaf. If his name is pronounced Gustaf and not Gestaf, then I agree that it is irrelevant and unnecessary. We don't need a pronunciation guide when it is pronounced the same in
Swedish and
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has already provided more than enough arguments for inclusion. Your argument "of no use to anyone" is completely wrong, it is of use to everyone who wants to know how it should be pronounced. You do not have sole authority to judge the relevance of sourced information. This is a collaborative
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sigh* Nobody suggested "noting tje retroflex lateral". The question is whether to include a footnote (not even visible unless readers click on it) to show the correct pronunciation. Looking at the discussion, it seems as if pretty much everyone with a knowledge of
Swedish is in favour.
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as self proclaimed linguists. It's quite simple, if a reliable source can be found that supports the added IPA text, then go for it. If no such thing exists, then it's probably not a must include on the article no matter how passionate some editors may be about this sort of thing.
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1) I am not certain on that. It would be a reliable source for the claim that the priest pronounced it that way but not necessarily for the claim that it is the correct pronunciation. I am reminded of the mistake Diana
Spencer made at her wedding when she said Charles's name
1699:. Pronunciation should be provided when it is relevant, that is the reader may need it to be able to talk about the item. That is not the case when it comes to the names of world-famous persons whose names are already established in English, using English phonetics. --
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article, IMO. Interestingly, an editor on the talk page found a source (a pronounciation guide) where both -v and -f appear as
English pronounciations. Unfortunately, the entries in the guide do not seem to include any Swedish people with the name.
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The only topic area I'm unfamiliar with is Swedish, since I do not speak that language. I am conversant with IPA; I simply mistook ɵ for e since it is not easy to note the difference when aged over 50 and not wearing your reading glasses.
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It seems that the proposal is to add something that cannot be adequately sourced and that English speakers already know well enough to be understood by anyone, Swede or not. I would rather not see IPA creep into where it is not needed.
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and the more you say here ("it's pronounced more like Gustav") the more I am convinced that the pronunciation is identical and therefore pointless. English speakers do not need to be told how to pronounce something they already say.
2036:"Insisting one is right is not an argument." That statement applies equally to everything you've said here. Furthermore, adding incivility to your argument is unpersuasive and damages your case instead of strengthening it.
1479:) after the year 1900, because people then began to gave legally registered names with legal spellings which it no longer would be appropriate to translate. What you may have misunderstood is that none of these men were
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organizations as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Scouting. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the
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You are not writing this article for people with a knowledge of Swedish. On the contrary, you are writing it for English speakers who are unlikely to have any knowledge of Swedish or any wish to be instructed in the
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Re: recent reverts - Knowledge (XXG) is not a foreign language school. There is no need to clutter up the opening of any article text with pronunciation that is not relevant to an article in English. How to say
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If the name of the article is more than one word, include pronunciation only for the words that need it unless all are in other languages (all of Jean van Heijenoort but only Cholmondeley in Thomas P. G.
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persons name is pronounced in their native language. That most high quality biography articles include IPA seems to me to show that there's a consensus for including IPA for names in Biography articles.
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You are now insulting a second editor here, and most brazenly too given that your statement of intention is evidently false. Not a single editor here mentioned other articles on Scandinavian royals.
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So, the long (and partly fictional, as I learned) list of the kings of Sweden uses a peculiar naming system with double given names (but only numbering the first given name)... however, the name of
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Nothing even slightly insulting. Nobody is qn expert on everything. If I were to comment on advanced physics, I'd also lack compentence in that area and someone saying so would not be insulting.
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With all due respect, Celia Homeford, your opinion is flat out wrong. The Swedish pronunciation is very different from the English and even contains several phonemes that don't exist in English.
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gentlemen named Charles) is striking. Please note, of course, that I might very well be a moron not knowing this but the Internet (google-wise) seems to be not really bothered by the conundrum.
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fact: in my native language, both the wiki-guideline and the common understanding is that kings and queens are "entitled" to have traditional (and thus, translated) names for continuity sake.
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Nobody is an expert on everything and there's nothing insulting in that. Obviously I stand by my comment that competence in phonology and IPA is beneficial to commenting on those topics.
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There hase been some back.and-forth action recently on the to image here. Seems to me rather obviously that a photo from 2023 should be preferred to one from 2018. What am I missing?
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They are/were called Carl Gustaf and Gustaf Adolf, respectively, and hence their regnal names are Carl XVI Gustaf and Gustaf VI Adolf. This move request can be closed immediately. --
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1777:'s argument very convincing. Calling foreign IPA for a persons name "not relevant" just because there are English pronunciations doesn't make sense to me. I don't want to bring up
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I agree that it probably isn't worth it to include a Swedish pronunciation when it's the same as the English pronunciation but I think it should be included in this case because:
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Normally, pronunciation is given only for the subject of the article in its lead section. For non-English words and names, use the pronunciation key for the appropriate language.
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against pronunciation being given in such cases. This is not one of them. That's what "not relevant" means. And what is not relevant in an article is of no use to anyone there.
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Quite incorrect. English speakers would not use or expect the retroflex lateral in Carl nor the retroflex plosive in Hubertus, nor any of the three vowel sounds in Hubertus.
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Based on the discussion above, I'd recommend re-inserting the IPA. The only real objection comes from a user who, it must be said, argues out of ignorance (misunderstanding
1574:, not only does inserting an unsourced IPA not allow readers to check the pronunciation comes from a reliable source, but it invites bickering between editors and their own
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But what about if the pronunciation is "apparent from its spelling"? Well I interpret that as meaning "apparent from its spelling", which the Swedish pronunciation isn't.
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Would you consider it "properly sourced" if we referenced a recording of Carl XVI Gustaf's wedding, where the priest said "Carl Gustaf Folke Hubertus"? If not, why not?
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Charles but their names were translated in English and French usage. Re: Swedish kings, what also can be confusing is that, in Swedish, they have often been spelled
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This discussion isn't just about including IPA for "Gustaf", it's about including the Swedish IPA for the full name "Carl Gustaf Folke Hubertus" (transcribed from
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I agree with Paditor's points. Also the facial expression in the older photo is more neutral. In the 2023 photo he has furrowed brows and looks somewhat grumpy.
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2) No, I would not say that the inclusion of IPA is always wrong. In fact, this matter is covered by the Manual of Style (oddly enough, not cited here yet),
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When we start getting into attacks about despicable attitudes and accusations of "sole authority" we are not using this page for its intended purpose. --
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Very simply, actually: this is a biography and people do not go to biographies for non-biographical minutiae that cannot even be properly sourced.
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statement already made it clear you don't know IPA, I merely pointed out that your comment is based on that lack of knowledge and hence not valid.
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all have non-English IPA (first two without reference). Is the inclusion of non-English IPA in biographies always "non-biographical minutiae"?
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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You're free to believe that, but it doesn't change a thing. Insisting one is right is not an argument. This is not a forum and
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Yes I'm aware of that. In this case it would be "Carl XVI Gustaf". I agree that we don't need his full name presented in IPA.
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Gustaf is the only part of the name that's even remotely uncertain. I thought it was obvious that's what's being discussed.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
513:-related articles on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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How can you possibly have any knowledge about the wishes of the readers of Knowledge (XXG) articles (except yourself)?
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which has both English and Chinese pronunciation). To not clutter the article, I've put it in a footnote (similar to
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I'm just a little confused because references for IPA aren't really consistent across Knowledge (XXG). For example,
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He hasn't changed that much over the years, so I think the only advantage of the new photo is that it's newer.
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has a link to a dictionary (with IPA) for the English pronunciation but no source for the Xhosa pronunciation.
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YOU might not "go to biographies for non-biographical minutiae". You are not a spokesperson for the world.
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and not knowing IPA). If there are no actual arguments including the footnote, I suggest it be reinserted.
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and I imagine that is how some of the articles you cited ended up having IPA against the Manual of Style.
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We don't have any English IPA, and I'm not sure how "Carl Gustaf Folke Hubertus" is pronounced in English.
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Personally, I'm not against including the IPA as a footnote as long as it's properly sourced. After all
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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In this case, "all are in other languages", just like "Jean van Heijenoort", so it should be included.
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This whole thread is a great example of the mess that IPA's bring, people arguing about their own
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too much, but this argument could be used to remove pretty much every foreign IPA in biographies.
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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They only include pronunciation of the regnal name not middle names that are never used.
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If the name of the article has a pronunciation that is not apparent from its spelling...
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in a general Knowledge (XXG) biography written for a general, non-linguist audience.
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Knowledge (XXG) does not have the task of informing readers of English how something
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I think the pronunciation of his name is useful and other articles include it (See
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No, you are right. It is information, Knowledge (XXG) is a source of information.
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has worse lighting (sunlight, casts shadow on his face, old photo was evenly lit)
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Each of us has the right to h honest opinion about article content, including I.
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unless the words cannot reasonably be pronounced using English phonetics. I am
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encyclopedic information. Not random language lessons of no use to anyone. --
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It is generally accepted that we do not translate royal names (using English
2395:. You are the only one on your side of the debate trying to be constructive.
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I've listened to the recording and seen the IPA, so I know that I am right.
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should be treated differently from every other Biography article. Most of
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could also be interpreted as saying that Swedish IPA should be included.
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Would you consider it sufficient to reference an audio recording from
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Fixed by using a footnote, like many other Biography articles do.
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has a link to a YouTube video of Obama saying his own name, and
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I think "despicable" is a little harsh, but I also don't find @
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No, it would not. And until someone explains how it could be
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has something yellow out of focus covering part of the photo
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interpretations on how the pronunciation should be written.
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errors as well. This underlines why a reference is needed.
624:, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to
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On 13 January 2024, it was proposed that this article be
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Talk:Charles XI of Sweden#Requested move 13 January 2024
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No. It's unnecessary, intrusive and original research.
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2209:. Just as there should be Swedish IPA for "Gustav" in
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517:and see a list of open tasks.
436:This article is supported by
412:This article is supported by
244:biographies of living persons
42:Put new text under old text.
2834:B-Class Lutheranism articles
2814:All WikiProject Sweden pages
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376:contribute to the discussion
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1212:move review
771:Lutheranism
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148:free images
31:not a forum
2753:Categories
2592:Frederik X
2364:Xi Jinping
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1594:Xi Jinping
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