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such a war against
British Empire, but Croatia who even dominated the country if you count number of presidents and length of their rule of that SFRY and prime ministers and other leading roles in that country, that is nonsense. 2. This war was mainly rebellion of Serbian population in Croatia that reject forceful secession from Yugoslavia they wanted to stay in, unlike Croats who wanted to leave. As if Flemish lands with Brussels would want to separate from Belgium and Wallonia Belgians in Brussels rebel because they do not want to be separated. Majority of soldiers who fought and died in that conflict where Serbs from Croatia. Likewise, even volunteers who came to help them from Serbia, in majority were ethnic Serbs who were from Croatia and who either moved to Serbia as adults or during their childhood with their parents. Some even born to such a parent in Serbia, yet still having plenty of close relatives in Croatia. Many went back to Croatia to help their parents and relatives, to fight for houses of their birth or grandparents, not to be separated from them. It can easily be verified. In last and major operation by Croatian Army, where majority of Serb controlled territories were reclaimed by Croatian state, neither FRY (Serbia) nor Republika Srpska participated (on Croatian soil). They were threatened by NATO, which armed and trained Croatian forces (plenty of evidence of retired US military providing services) and initiated this last operation by bombing Serbs in Serbian Authonomous Region of Kraina and Republika Srpska 3. Accordingly, and clearly, third belligerent in that war was NATO, yet it is not stated here. This war was fully decided by NATO and its power, according to its will and not by parties on the field. Even in your Knowledge pages there is clear description of situation before that last and major operation "Storm" which in majority ended Serb autonomous province o Kraina. Not to mention that they could not even hide NATO involvement by naming this military operation with some original name, for it very much sounds like "Desert Storm" in Iraq that happened 4 years before. In that description on Knowledge pages, it can clearly be seen that Serbs were outnumbered 3:1, that they were significantly less armed (tanks, airplanes, artillery...) and that neither Serbia (FRY - Serbia & Montenegro) nor Republika Srpska could help, without facing NATO bombing and retaliations if they do. According to your own pages, let alone what facts are, it's so easy to conclude that this is language of propaganda instead of facts that you yourself found accurate and published. Finally, Bosnian (Bosnyak) army was not ally of Croatia, but opportunistic partner on few occasions and fiery enemy most of the time. Croats were fighting mercilessly Bosnian (should be Bosnyak) army in Bosnia. In operation Storm, Bosnyak army was not taking part in claiming territories in Croatia for Croats as ally would do, but taking territories in Bosnia and Hercegovina for themselves, based on pure opportunism i.e. scavenging of pinned Serbs. Knowledge should stand for integrity, yet it never does. It is repeater of propaganda narratives. If not, please point exactly one statement here that is inaccurate, and I will gladly provide you proofs on your Knowledge pages. End result of that "War for Independence" was genocidal ethnic cleansing of Serbs and Yugoslavs from Croatia, who reduced from being more than 700.000 to less then 185.000 in those 4 years. Just in the last operation of Croatian Army supported by NATO, operation "Storm", close to 250.000 of that TOTAL number were expelled from their homes in just several days. 28 years later, and these people still have not returned to their homes. They got liberated from their homes, from their farms and their lives. This "Independence" seems to be fact according to Red Cross and UN stats and data available today. Also available on your Knowledge pages. This is also very well documented from clear testimonies of these expelled people, who are still alive and still available to talk and state it. Problem is that no one want to hear them. They are told what happened to them, instead of being listened. Still after that many years, almost all of them in one voice are claiming that Crotian government and state expelled them from their homes. To extent, they do blame incompetence and weakness of Serb leadership, but finger of guilt for their status points clearly to Croatia and its governments since incident till today. 28 years later, Milosevic is out of power for 23 years, but they are still not back, and they are told Milosevic is to be blamed. Maybe he is to be blamed for his own misdeeds towards them, but he is not cause for sure, for he is gone long ago, and they do not go back because of the very same reason they rebelled for against Croatian state and forced separation. All documented and at display even today and everyone can see that even today as those remaining Serbs in Croatia are leaving country in multiple times higher rate to their total number then Croatians are doing. Way more than economic motive. If you ask them, most of them would say that "Serbs cannot have life in Croatia". Statistics from Croatian government on population change in last 10 years are clearly available on this Knowledge pages and can easily be verified if there is desire to do so. But there is not. Why? Who can be guilty then? On this Knowledge pages, neutral observer can verify that number of Serbs in Croatia start rapidly declining after 1970's way before the war started. There are also testimonies from that time, that Serbs in federal unit of Croatia start experiencing discrimination in way milder form though then in 1990s. How one explains this sudden exodus, before war even started and many years before it, that can easily be observed on Knowledge Demography page for Croatia. Again, Knowledge own pages contain the evidence, but no one cares. Guess, country holding them from coming back with discriminatory policies started way before year 1991 but culminated then and related to those from 1941 and before. Again, easy to verify if anyone cares for available testimonies of these people. Should victims know better than politicians, trustful media, NATO spokesmen, Croatian historians. These people are still alive, and they can be heard. But those creating narrative do not want them to talk. Never they got invited to talk on Western media, western parliaments or even staged UN events. They get sometimes cherrypicked if they are to follow the narrative but even that almost never happens. And numbers are here on these Wiki pages. Numbers that ask questions, logical questions: Why those people left and are not coming back? Would anyone leave his/her house and never come back just because someone who is long dead who lost power long ago, who even got scrutinized, once long, long ago told them so? And they still listen to him?! Or rather they I still afraid of something that is imprinted in them for decades through experiences they had, and they still have if they try to go back. Instead, we are reading WIKI propaganda articles on how someone would like facts to be, incoherent with numbers and math, and of all science, math is the only never proved to be wrong. One should not be surprised that some nations are fighting for freedom, but others doing the same are separatists and terrorists. Depending on geopolitical interests we know from history. Simply put, if Croatians in Yugoslavia have fought for their Freedom, what Serbs in Croatia were fighting for? If Croatians had right of secession from Yugoslavia as right of one nation to be free, what Serbs who now found themselves in Croatia out of Yugoslavia by Croatian desire, what rights on freedom they had? Do they have right to be free on lands they lived for centuries, that were even recognized as entity within Austro-Hungarian Empire and Austrian Empire as Military Frontier with its local administration. Especially considering that in newly defined independent Croatian country they lost major constitutional rights that they had in Yugoslavia and Federal unit of Croatia that was part of it. They also lost rights they had in Austrian empire and Austro-Hungarian empire. They lost certain rights that they had for centuries and some that they had for half of a century in one day. What rights such a people have? Again, logical and clear question historians, scientists, or wikimasters providing "neutral facts" should ask themselves
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determination of aggression. Regarding the ICJ verdict, the
Croatian international law expert, Prof. Mirjan Damaska, stated: ”I could not, unfortunately, agree with the claim that it is clear from the verdict who the aggressor was…An attack on Croatia can be interpreted as an attack by a state on a state or an attack by one component of a federal state on another…If at the time when serious crimes were committed in Croatia, the SFRY still existed, then in the legal sense, one cannot speak of aggression as an attack by a state on a state...The International Court of Justice is of the opinion that Serbia (FRY) was formed at the end of April 1992. According to the judges, the SFRY still existed after the military campaign in Croatia and even after the fall of Vukovar”.
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conclusions of ICTY judgements are based on evidence showing direct and indirect interference of SRJ (Serbia) and the
Republic of Croatia in Bosnia and Herzegovina as well as the interference of SRJ (Serbia) in Croatia.In the judgements it was proven that the Greater Serbia and Greater Croatia plans represented the bases for the politics of committing crimes...The list of judgements with the related paragraphs, including the interim judgement against Slobodan Milošević: ICTY, The Prosecutor v. Duško Tadić, IT-94-1, par. 97,156,160,162,569,606,660.
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1855:@StephenMacky1 - If someone put you argument for every statement made and reference to even Knowledge sources you cannot call it rant. Facts you do not like are not rant. Your inability not to see inconsistence with WIKIPEDIA information should not give you censorship rights, but that is WIKIPEDIA unfortunately. Please let me know what is the info that you need. Here are exact material proofs from Knowledge and "trusted media":
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In more simple terms we can say that in a series of judgements ICTY established the aggression of SRJ (Serbia) and the
Republic of Croatia against Bosnia and Herzegovina as well as the aggression of Serbia against Croatia based on their plans to create the Greater Serbia and the Greater Croatia. The
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The cited source is a book published by the UK's
Routledge Press, a highly reputable academic publisher, and the author, Norman Cigar, is a former professor at the US Marine Corps University, and a widely published author on military and war matters, including the 90's wars in fromer Yugoslavia Thus
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Thus this sounds like the definition of a civil war (e.g. like the
American Civil War), contrary to the ICTY final judgement in the case vs. Dario Kordic et al, where the court specifically found that Croatia sent its troops into Bosnia, thus making it an international conflict, or the closest thing
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Like I said I was not aware of these, will have to take a look. I know that in the final Dario Kordic judgement, the ICTY reiterated that with the aim of creating a
Greater Croatia, Croatia perpetrated an international armed conflict, i.e. in your words Croatia committed aggression against Bosnia,
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1. Croats were not fighting for independence. Croats were constituent part of the
Yugoslavia. There were not colonized by Yugoslavia. This is so inaccurate and so incompetent. It would be as if Swiss German separation from Switzerland would be called "War of Independance". Egypt could have fought
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Here it Cleary state that 850 citizens of Serbia died in
Croatia. This includes also Croats from Serbia that participated on Croatian side. In this article about War in Croatia 7200-8100 Serbs were killed. Thus, around 11-13% of causalities were from Serbia, and most of them were from Croatian
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Both sources for this line are based on heresay. And if the numbers were true, they still aren't defined enough.Who deserted from the JNA? croats,serbs, montenegrins, albanians, slovenians, etc.?! How many of each deserted in what numbers?! One possibility is that all those (or maybe 99%) that
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and in the later trial against Prljak et al determined that this was part of joint criminal enterprise along with other crimes committed by Croat forces in Bosnia. They specifically mention the HDZ, HDZ Bih and
Tudjman hundreds of times in these verdicts as being primarily responsible for same
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The article states: “The prevailing view in Croatia and of most international law experts, including both international courts ICTY and ICJ, is that the war was an international conflict, between the rump Yugoslavia and Serbia against Croatia,” Yet as far as I know, neither court made a
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deserted are from countries that got attacked by serbia (which explains why they deserted), second possibility is that all those that deserted are serbian, there simply no way to know from those two sources. A detailed source would fit great here, but these two are incomplete.
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the citation certainly meets WP's Reliable Source standards. Unless you can cite a Reliable Source with some differing views on this specific matter, it is not up to anonymous non-experts to second guess and question such expert citations with zero evidence
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I agree with you first point, it would be good to add details. Regarding the second one, if the source is generally reliable, then we can cite it even if they don't provide the sample size. Do you have reasons to doubt Cigar's reliability?
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2. "By late December 1991, just over a month after victory had been proclaimed in Vukovar, opinion polls found that 64% of Serbian people wanted to end the war immediately and only 27% were willing for it to continue"
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to a state-on-state aggression. Can anyone provide quotes from ICTY or ICJ final judgements (NOT prosecutorial claims), where either the ICTY or ICJ determined the war in Croatia to be an aggression?
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Croatian War of Independance - Wrong name and wrong facts - It was Croatian session war from Yugoslavia
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Offers no sense of scale. How many serbian people were questioned?? 10? 100? 1000?
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8. Cautiously, Clinton Backs Croats' Goals - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
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https://www.dw.com/hr/srbija-objavila-imena-poginulih-u-ratovima/a-15025760
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when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
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https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2002-apr-14-mn-37825-story.html
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https://en.wikipedia.org/NATO_intervention_in_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina
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origin, Serbs who were from Croatia as stated in my article below.
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1916:- List US contractors used to train Croatian Army
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586:Top-importance
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539:Croatia portal
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511:Top‑importance
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1484:After the war
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1455:Serbia's role
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876:This article
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714:Post-Cold War
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123:Find sources:
120:
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110:Verifiability
108:
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103:
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52:Learn to edit
49:
46:
41:
40:
37:
36:
32:
26:
22:
18:
17:
1838:
1819:Thhhommmasss
1778:
1774:
1765:Thhhommmasss
1761:
1751:
1747:
1729:. Retrieved
1725:
1716:
1708:
1698:Thhhommmasss
1678:
1662:
1651:Thhhommmasss
1647:
1643:
1091:Section name
1042:. Retrieved
1008:
988:
948:
877:
740:
673:
637:
633:
585:
545:
489:WikiProjects
472:
443:Good article
442:
436:Not approved
429:
410:
391:
372:
332:
330:
326:please do so
314:
313:
309:
282:
266:
226:
184:
171:
165:
157:
150:
144:
138:
132:
122:
94:
19:This is the
1537:Annotations
148:free images
31:not a forum
1938:Categories
1804:Âżquestion?
1744:Weak lines
1731:2020-12-28
1709:References
1563:References
1120:Background
1044:2014-12-13
879:has failed
649:Yugoslavia
644:Yugoslavia
613:Yugoslavia
398:Not listed
379:Not listed
320:under the
477:is rated
291:citations
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1870:Strength
1624:298,148
1524:See also
1213:123,649
1039:BuzzFeed
710:European
479:GA-class
334:reassess
289:Include
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1800:Alaexis
1621:298,148
1585:10,645
1570:14,292
1462:14,627
1449:23,936
1419:21,090
1404:11,520
1389:65,984
1348:24,573
1333:11,895
1318:17,718
1303:13,069
1288:15,230
1273:23,973
1243:10,259
1228:56,354
1170:11,490
1157:18,437
1142:20,658
1127:39,170
1114:21,847
1099:Section
991:on the
676:on the
588:on the
561:Croatia
552:Croatia
508:Croatia
357:Process
273:dispute
227:90Â days
154:WPÂ refs
142:scholar
1613:1,681
1600:3,632
1582:10,645
1505:2,376
1492:5,127
1477:9,481
1446:23,936
1434:9,412
1416:21,090
1401:11,520
1376:2,560
1363:4,089
1345:20,484
1330:11,895
1315:17,718
1300:13,069
1285:15,230
1270:23,973
1258:6,856
1240:10,259
1200:4,621
1185:6,848
1154:18,437
1139:20,658
1111:21,847
1101:total
706:Balkan
485:scale.
417:Listed
360:Result
126:Google
1618:Total
1610:1,681
1597:3,632
1577:Books
1550:Notes
1502:2,376
1489:5,127
1474:9,481
1431:9,412
1373:2,560
1360:4,089
1255:6,856
1197:4,621
1182:6,848
1107:(Top)
1096:count
466:This
191:Index
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1925:talk
1846:talk
1823:talk
1789:talk
1769:talk
1702:talk
1686:talk
1671:talk
1655:talk
1531:128
1518:283
1094:Byte
983:High
668:High
354:Date
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
1912:7.
1905:6.
1899:5.
1891:4.
1885:3.
1864:2.
1858:1.
1557:23
1544:38
1528:128
1515:283
882:an
580:Top
176:TWL
1940::
1927:)
1848:)
1825:)
1791:)
1724:.
1688:)
1673:)
1657:)
1567:15
1554:23
1541:38
1459:19
1386:26
1225:36
1210:40
1167:21
1124:75
1037:.
857:/
784:/
712:/
708:/
704::
337:it
328:.
225::
217:,
213:,
209:,
205:,
201:,
197:,
193:,
156:)
54:;
1923:(
1844:(
1821:(
1787:(
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1767:(
1734:.
1704:)
1700:(
1684:(
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1653:(
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1027::
995:.
886:.
753:.
680:.
592:.
491::
339:.
287:.
275:.
219:7
215:6
211:5
207:4
203:3
199:2
195:1
188::
172:·
166:·
158:·
151:·
145:·
139:·
133:·
128:(
58:.
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