1223:– The VSS should come first before the AS because the VSS (Vintorez) was produced first. The AS (Val) was derived from the VSS project. Adding the parenthesis on the Vintorez and Val is necessary to let the readers know that these names are distinct and should not be used in unison. Official nomenclature for these rifles are; 'VSS Special Sniper Rifle and AS Special Assault Rifle'. VSS and AS for short. The 'Vintorez and Val' were merely project names given to these rifles during their developmental stage. This was given in order to confuse foreign agencies during the Cold War. It is correct to refer to these rifles as; 'VSS Special Sniper Rifle', 'VSS', 'Vintorez' and 'AS Special Assault Rifle', 'AS', 'Val'. But it is incorrect to refer to it as 'VSS Vintorez' and 'AS Val'. By put putting the parenthesis on the 'Vintorez and Val' it will separate the official name and the project name so readers would know the difference.
1874:. A search for "VSS rifle" gives mostly results saying "VSS Vintorez" in news and general results. That leads me to believe VSS Vintorez is more common in English. That is the relevant standard — not what might be more official. Generally, the results do not include parentheses or quotations. Accordingly, I have to conclude that the current name is more common. Switching the order back should be uncontroversial though. Also, the name "AS rifle" or "AS sniper rifle" on its own is problematic in English because searching that gives you basically no relevant results. Hence it is more convenient to use the term "AS Val." (Meanwhile, should this page be split into two articles, one for each type of gun?)
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was following the alphabetical order guideline. Then when I was digging through reliable sources (also used by the
Russian Knowledge article of these two rifles). I realised that the VSS was produced first and the AS is simply a derivative of the VSS. That's why I want to put the VSS before the AS. Now regarding the new tittle that I moved it to which was 'VSS and AS'. After it was reverted, I understand that it does go against "COMMON Name" guidelines. So I decided to put a parenthesis on them. To give distinction between those names.
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Your assumption that TNI got their name from
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1588:"Jane's Infantry Weapons", either way does not use "AS Val or VSS Vintorez". It uses "AS supressed assault rifle" from what you said. You already have one reference that goes against your own argument. I'm not removing the Val and Vintorez from the tittle but putting a parenthesis to indicate to readers that these are two different names used to refer to the same rife.
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duplicate some of the Val's other features, like using a scope and a suppressor. If indeed the Groza rifle uses 75% of the parts for the AKS-74u carbine, then it could be made more cheaply as well by re-using those same manufacturing plants and machines instead of making and using a dedicated plant just for the Val rifle.
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1079:- official promotional video from the weapon's manufacturer also states that the name of the weapon is simply 'AS' but is also referred to as the 'Val'. Note that they didn't call it the 'AS Val' but either 'AS' or 'Val' since both names refer to the same weapon but not in unison. Same goes for the VSS
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I'm personally in favor of a change to distinguish the "official" acronym name from the "informal" name. Although it is not so critical or damaging for some people to continue thinking they are the "full" names, it would be beneficial to clarify that they are two distinct names and would not subtract
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Your dismissal of the sources has very little congruence. I said "Jane's
Infantry Weapons", because that is the name of the work, and also the name that appears on the front cover, and a separate work from Jane's Guns Recognition Guide, so why you would use a page from the latter source is beyond me.
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This argument about which name should be used started when I moved the page from 'AS Val and
Vintorez' to 'VSS and AS'. Note that I was the one who moved the page from the former tittle (VSS Vintorez and AS Val) given after the merge of the AS Val and VSS Vintorez. I placed the AS Val first because I
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I don't know how many times I need to reiterate "independent, reliable, English-language sources". Ukrainian
Knowledge is neither reliable nor in English, and infographics or anything else that comes from the manufacturer doesn't carry any weight here, as they are neither independent nor in English.
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The listed literal translation for the weapon's
Russian name is "special assault rifle". In reality, avtomat is Russian for "machine" or "automatic". While the word has been connoted with assault rifles thanks to the AK, it doesn't necessarily refer to an assault rifle. It really refers to automatic
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Even so, I'm surprised the
Russian military has BOTH the AS Val and the OTs-14 Groza in circulation. According to the Groza's page here on wikipedia, it can do a great deal the AS Val can't, including mounting a grenade launcher, using a bayonet, being transported in a special carry case, and indeed
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The above links is a reliable secondary source. The Val is under quotation marks. One of the most reliable
English based source when it comes to Russian firearms puts the Vintorez and Val under quotation marks. Now the author of this website was interviewed by Forgotten Weapons during the interview
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It's not personal 'inventions' as you claim it to be. I've already given necessary links to the original manufacturer of this rifle. This new proposed tittle does not conflict common name since it mentions the "Vintorez and Val". It just shows your lack of knowledge of this particular firearm. This
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There is clear opposition to the move, and the only proponents of the move seem to be an editor who is currently blocked for sockpuppetry, and an account that has scant edits outside the topic. Additionally, the only evidence presented by the proponents are barely reliable sources and references to
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Because that is how the
Russian manufacturer categorises the 'AS special assault rifle'. The manufacturer's official classification of the AS 'Val' is a special assault rifle. For any firearm to be categorised as an 'assault rifle', it must be chamber in an intermediate calibre. Assault rifles must
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I know that when lives are on the line, ineffective or obsolete weaponry is often quickly discarded (though I still don't understand why the 9x18mm round is still in service despite being clearly inferior to the 9x19mm parabellum round), and given how strapped-for-cash the
Russian military is, they
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Which was published in 2005. On page 314, the name used on the tittle is "AS silent sniper rifle" Which is incorrect because the AS is not a sniper rifle. Now this could be a typo or it could also be referring to the VSS which is also mentioned on the same page. I take that the author confused the
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Quote taken from WP:COMMONNAME, You're telling me that the official manufacturer's website is not reliable? The website has an English version. Why is that not considered as reliable? "Other encyclopedias" The Russian Wiki uses the Val and Vintorez name separately, aren't these considered as other
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The AS Val and VSS Vintorez are essentially the same rifle. The latter having a different 'sniper' style buttstock and comes equipped with a PSO-1. Note that the AS Val can also equip such scope. Now relating to the merge, was this even discussed? How it was done is just atrociously bad. Were all
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Why have you merged the articles for two rifles with different GRAU numbers, names, and designations? Once again, what source or rationale are you using to support this baffling change? How many more articles are you going to mess up because you unilaterally decided they needed reorganizations or
1382:"Although official, scientific, birth, original, or trademarked names are often used for article titles, the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred. Other encyclopedias are among the sources that may be helpful in deciding what titles are in an encyclopaedic
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You're saying other Knowledge languages are inferior? Especially the Russian Wiki where there's more sources regarding these two rifles? A Russian based source is MORE reliable compared to American based sources when it comes to these two rifles since they were made in Russia not in America.
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fires an intermediate cartridge. As far as I know, there are no fully powered Soviet cartridges of 9mm calibre, but compared to 9x64mm and other rifle cartridges of 9mm, and to 9mm pistol rounds like the 9x18mm Makarov or 9x19mm Parabellum, the Val's 9x39mm is in between and is considered an
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My understanding is that this term is commonly used to describe any autoloading rifle which fires an "intermediate" cartridge. This is a pretty colloquial term used to describe post-WW2 rifle cartridges which are "smaller" than what was considered typical of the era, but also larger than
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If indeed the "newer variant" of the Val is real, then its higher magazine capacity than the Groza might be reason to keep it around over the Groza, but we still need a citation for it. I'd like someone with the right knowledge to clear this up for me.
613:"conventional" pistol cartridges. Given the imprecise (and arguably opinion/context-dependent, as many people have different definitions) nature of this label, I feel that referring to the AS/VSS (or really any other firearm) as such is unnecessary. --
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But the English source got it wrong. Those sources that refers to these two rifles as "VSS Vintorez and AS Val" are wrong. The Val is always separated from the 'AS' designation. I can show you an email from Vladimir Onokoy (Author of this article:
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also be capable of select-fire (fully automatic/burst-fire and semi-automatic). I provided a source of a video made by 'Forgotten Weapons' talking about the history and design of the AS Val, VSS Vintorez and other 9x39mm chambered weapons.
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I agree with this. When I first noticed that the two articles have been merged it was abysmal to see. I will further edit the whole article to have a clearer and more structured flow to maintain uniformity of other weapon articles here on
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This is how the tittle style of the VSS on the Ukrainian Wiki, ВСС «Вінторєз» (When translated to English: VSS "Vintorez"). Which is the correct way and is also used in Russian sources. Either use parenthesis or quotation marks I don't
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I think this page needs a citation as to where one can get information on this new AS Val variant that can hold 30 rounds of 9x39mm ammunition. It certainly sounds interesting, but I would definitely like verification on this.
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sources use, of which you have managed to produce only one that uses the shortened name, which seems to hold little significance when the aforementioned Jane's Infantry Weapons by the same publication uses a different name.
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redesignation? Couldn't you have at least kept this page about the Vintorez and built a separate subsection for the Val, or added the Val to a list of variants? That would have at least made some kind of sense!
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To answer the above question, there is no "new variant" for AS Val. However, there is an improved version of SR3 Vikhr, called SR3M, which I believe is mistaken in this article as a variant of Val. Please see
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RECOIL's article is about a "homemade American VSS Vintorez". How can this be considered a reliable source? It's not even the actual VSS that this article is referring to? It's a completely different gun.
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is a Russian based firearm, "Common Name" in the Russian Wiki does put the Vintorez and Val under quotation. I'm done arguing this with you. Another editor must step in and give the final verdict.
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Please stop deleting Georgia from the users section. This weapons is frequently used by the Georgian police in raid operations and it is also in the inventory of the military special forces.
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COMMONNAME is determined by what independent, reliable sources use. The manufacturer's website constitutes a primary source, and is for obvious reasons not independent of the subject.
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The National Interest is the only reliable source that he gave. Although this source is not currently used in the article. I'll assume that they got the name "AS Val" from Knowledge.
1582:) that has worked with this rifle when I get his permission. Basically what he said, the names used on the official documents are either "6P30" or "AS special assault rifle".
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I did some digging and have found out that the official nomenclatures for both 'AS Val and VSS Vintorez' is simply, 'AS special assault rifle and VSS special sniper rifle'.
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1352:- Official promotional video of the AS Special Assault Rifle where it specifically differentiated the two names, "AS" and "Val" as separate names and not used in unison.
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Modernfirearms is an English based source, why didn't you mention that on your reply? Modernfirearms uses quotation marks to separate the Vintorez and Val names.
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Now these are the sources that Loafiewa gave during the past dispute when I moved the page to "VSS and AS". Note that these sources are not used on the article.
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weapons in general. A better literal translation would be "special automatic" or "special submachine gun" (especially seeing as it is more SMG than AR, I think.
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could save some money by discontinuing the Val production and maintenance and devoting the freed-up manufacturing capacity and budget to Groza production.
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from the clarity of the title. People who search for 'VSS Vintorez' will not be confused by 'VSS "Vintorez"' and think it is the incorrect page.
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This source is an updated version Jane's Infantry Weapons that Loafiewa mentioned. On this revised version they simply use the "VSS and AS" names.
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Intermediate cartridge being smaller in length than a rifle cartridge of the same calibre, but bigger than a pistol cartridge of that calibre.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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Jane's Infantry Weapons has been revised multiple times. Loafiewa did not provide a link so I would assume he was referring to this;
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contents from the former VSS Vintorez article properly merged onto this new page? Such as users, references and other materials.
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1779:: Long convoluted argument between two editors with scant amounts of quality arguments. If I were to close it now I would lean
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Modernfirearms is reliable and in English. Yet again you dismiss that source and kept avoiding to touch that subject.
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Whatever you editors decide, get consensus before making more changes. These changes and reversions are disruptive.
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Most carbines have barrel length of less than 16 inches and AS VAL is way below that so shouldn't it be a carbine?
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Select fire meaning the weapon is able to be switched between semi automatic and fully automatic modes of firing.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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he mentioned that the Val and Vintorez name were "names given to these rifles to confuse FBI, other agencies".
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https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/silent-death-russias-deadly-spetsnaz-getting-new-assault-rifle-106516
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https://modernfirearms.net/en/sniper-rifles/standart-caliber-rifles/russia-standart-caliber-rifles/vss-eng/
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https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2022/01/06/unknown-history-new-russian-ak-12-kalashnikov-rifle-part-2/
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https://uk.wikipedia.org/%D0%92%D0%A1%D0%A1_%C2%AB%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%94%D0%B7%C2%BB
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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If common name holds precedence over official given name then I would suggest put a parenthesis or ''
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on July 16, 2022. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see
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on July 16, 2022. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Why is the AS VAL classified as an assault rifle even though it only has a barrel length of 200mm?
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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Then provide a link then. I don't see how putting a parenthesis would go against common name.
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http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/Security%20systems/Counterterrorist%20assets/Sniper%20rifles/VSS/
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http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/Security%20systems/Counterterrorist%20assets/Assault%20rifles/AS/
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http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/Security%20systems/Counterterrorist%20assets/Sniper%20rifles/VSS/
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http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/Security%20systems/Counterterrorist%20assets/Assault%20rifles/AS/
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is capable of fully automatic and semi automatic fire, and mode of firing can be switched.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20120129215000/http://bratishka.ru/archiv/2005/2/2005_2_5.php
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https://archive.org/details/janesgunsrecogni0000hogg_m9y8/page/314/mode/2up?view=theater
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https://ru.wikipedia.org/%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%BB_(%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%82)
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So readers will not get the impression that it is correct to say 'AS Val/VSS Vintorez'
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Jane's Infantry Weapons uses the name "AS silent assault rifle/VS silent sniper rifle"
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Jane's Infantry Weapons uses the name "AS silent assault rifle/VS silent sniper rifle"
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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https://web.archive.org/web/20091008105115/http://www.tsniitochmash.ru:80/asvssen.htm
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Here is an official infographic of the AS (Val). Clearly separating the "Val" name.
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https://archive.org/details/janesgunsrecogni0000jone/page/308/mode/2up?view=theater
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https://archive.org/details/janesgunsrecogni0000jone/page/309/mode/1up?view=theater
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The VSS should be listed before the AS because it predates it by a few years. Per
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it mentions that "Exceptions can be made when they are part of the proper title".
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1364:- Russian based article that goes into detail on the history of these two rifles
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https://modernfirearms.net/en/assault-rifles/russia-assault-rifles/as-eng/
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https://ru.wikipedia.org/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B7
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Modern Snipers by Osprey Publishing uses the name VSS Vintorez (p. 229)
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Modern Snipers by Osprey Publishing uses the name VSS Vintorez (p. 229)
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Given these, I'd say quite confidently the AS Val is an assault rifle.
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https://www.recoilweb.com/homemade-american-vss-vintorez-173869.html
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Here's the link to the interview in case anyone wants to watch it.
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Start-Class Russian, Soviet and CIS military history articles
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exceptions can be made when they are part of the proper title
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Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force articles
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Military science, technology, and theory task force articles
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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Quotation marks can be used instead of parenthesis. Under
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Detachable magazines can be bottom, top, or side mounted.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkprsBoImRg&t=1406s
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has a bottom mounted 20-round detachable box magazine.
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On 3 June 2023, it was proposed that this article be
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNJgmn-VjJU&t=4s
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNJgmn-VjJU&t=4s
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This article has been checked against the following
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1073:- Jane's Gun Recognition uses 'AS and VSS' page 309
835:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
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Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force
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Military science, technology, and theory task force
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980:How many other articles were merged by this guy?
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1028:The official name doesn't hold precedence over
1504:Above links are quoted directly from Loafiewa
821:This message was posted before February 2018.
1709:http://www.vsk-kalibr.narod.ru/plk/766245.jpg
1543:http://www.vsk-kalibr.narod.ru/plk/766245.jpg
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1496:Recoil uses the name AS Val/VSS Vintorez -
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1083:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m50N5bc_BE
721:http://www.world.guns.ru/assault/as65-e.htm
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1834:VSS "Vintorez" and AS "Val"
1719:VSS "Vintorez" and AS "Val"
1715:VSS «Vintorez» and AS «Val»
1231:) 13:54, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
1220:VSS (Vintorez) and AS (Val)
1110:VSS (Vintorez) and AS (Val)
967:22:42, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
947:17:24, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
908:06:37, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
889:10:52, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
739:14:19, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
591:VSS (Vintorez) and AS (Val)
2005:
1164:Requested move 3 June 2023
852:(last update: 5 June 2024)
768:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
681:18:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
476:project's importance scale
251:Referencing and citation:
129:project's importance scale
1915:01:14, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
1846:13:34, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
1820:12:47, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
1793:20:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
1771:20:13, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
1751:20:13, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
1730:08:42, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
1698:WP:TITLESPECIALCHARACTERS
1685:21:21, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
1675:That is not site policy.
1308:20:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
1290:17:47, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
1260:17:30, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
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209:military history articles
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1891:Please do not modify it.
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1739:WikiProject Soviet Union
1667:22:27, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
1652:22:24, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
1638:16:23, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
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1209:23:33, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
1178:Please do not modify it.
1156:06:04, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
1142:21:25, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
1127:COMMONNAME goes by what
1123:23:12, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
1099:23:04, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
1063:00:00, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
623:05:58, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
437:WikiProject Soviet Union
1802:use of parentheses per
1215:AS Val and VSS Vintorez
1023:07:58, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
990:04:53, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
924:04:46, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
764:External links modified
663:intermediate cartridge.
554:AS Val and VSS Vintorez
514:AS Val and VSS Vintorez
317:Associated task forces:
262:Coverage and accuracy:
631:capable of select fire
370:
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295:Supporting materials:
223:
28:This article is rated
1906:KnowledgeableHrvatica
1863:few or no other edits
930:"Literal" translation
615:KnowledgeableHrvatica
542:The contents of the
502:The contents of the
460:Soviet Union articles
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1865:outside this topic.
1785:Captain Jack Sparrow
1763:Captain Jack Sparrow
1759:WikiProject Firearms
1743:Captain Jack Sparrow
1300:Captain Jack Sparrow
833:regular verification
165:Russian & Soviet
82:WikiProject Firearms
823:After February 2018
802:parameter below to
429:Soviet Union portal
359:Weaponry task force
284:Grammar and style:
237:for B-class status:
1899:AS "Val" or AS/Val
877:InternetArchiveBot
828:InternetArchiveBot
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40:WikiProjects
1861:) has made
1512:two rifles.
1183:move review
1129:independent
814:Sourcecheck
725:—Preceding
687:New variant
559:its history
519:its history
273:Structure:
30:Start-class
1923:Categories
1812:Necrothesp
1296:Relisting.
1281:STUFF DONE
1266:Relisting.
1251:STUFF DONE
1236:Relisting.
1192:not moved.
1148:MartinezMD
973:Knowledge.
884:Report bug
548:page were
508:page were
157:Technology
95:open tasks
91:discussion
1205:EggRoll97
867:this tool
860:this tool
599:not moved
1859:contribs
1677:Loafiewa
1630:Loafiewa
1565:Loafiewa
1424:Loafiewa
1384:register
1323:Loafiewa
1284:(please
1254:(please
1134:Loafiewa
1055:Loafiewa
900:All Nite
873:Cheers.—
727:unsigned
234:criteria
161:Weaponry
100:Firearms
87:firearms
59:Firearms
1808:neutral
1286:mention
1256:mention
939:R. A. S
800:checked
777:my edit
127:on the
1872:Oppose
1826:WP:TSC
1800:Oppose
1757:Note:
1737:Note:
1317:Fails
1315:Oppose
942:immons
808:failed
773:AS Val
550:merged
545:AS Val
510:merged
36:scale.
1851:JTC22
1838:JTC22
1606:mind.
1358:- VSS
587:moved
552:into
512:into
1910:talk
1880:talk
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1789:talk
1781:move
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963:talk
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904:talk
804:true
755:talk
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677:talk
619:talk
597:was
1717:or
1705:Val
841:RfC
818:).
806:or
791:to
589:to
470:???
119:Low
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