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on an airplane it doesn't make you an "airplanian" neither would people tell you so. Barack Obama is a Kenyan
American, point, blank, period. Do you think he'll win an argument about reparations? This is the confusion America is causing. Do you think we'll be part the tribe of we were in Kenya for 3 generations? Hell no! We'd be an entirely different ethnic group. So-called "African-americans" (black Americans) are a distinct ethnic group and that's what we have to realize. These people do not claim us and spreading this misinformation is not helping us in the world view. In Japan they do not accept foreigners as being Japanese, you could be Chinese in Japan for 3-4 generations and the Japanese will still look at you as a china man. So-called African Americans (black Americans)are the descendants of the slaves who were brought here to the Americas, nothing else.
1541:"African American" to slavery and its outworkings, as though he fits in that framework. This made no sense. He is clearly an African American but he isn't a descendant of U.S. slavery and his Kenyan father lived in the U.S. for a total of five years. Obama (and in my addition, Harris) are thus better connected to the recent immigrant influence on the African-American community (regardless of terminology), in which 20% are descendants of immigrants or immigrants themselves. This crucial stat is in the article but wasn't even mentioned in the lede, so I added it and mentioned Obama and Harris thereafter, since their immigrant parents are a major theme of the content and sources concerning them in the article already.
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1687:"prefer not to mention" is in fact a quote from RSK's edit summary on their last revert. It follows similar reverts they have made in the past, on the grounds of personal preference (though with the facade of consensus and edit-warring). This is why they titled the above talk heading "Obama again"; they don't like this content being in the article and have removed it before from the body, IIRC. That is why I brought up wikilawyering and gaming the system. The blocking of this info is entirely untethered from sources, content, consensus, or reason. Just POV and vibes.
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a source because our ethnic group is not formerly defined. There are only articles that debate who belong to our ethnic group, or there are articles (and official statistics) who lump us in with
Caribbean, Latin American and African peoples. We Black Americans know who we are and who our people are. Anyone who descends from the freed enslaved of 1865 are Afro / Black Americans. This change is imperative for us to begin defining who we are because many come to Knowledge (XXG) as the first line of research and we need this page to be as accurate as possible.
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1365:. Now, please explain why you think that Obama's parents and Kamala Harris are important enough to be mentioned in a lead section that doesn't mention giants like Douglass, King, Tubman, Jacobs, DuBois, .... I'd also like to know some good sources for your idea that only descendants of slavery are "conventional" African Americans. It sounds a bit like the idea that a person is defined by their great-great-great-grandparents.
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1526:"African American" to slavery (which the article already does, with sources) means we are defining people by their "great-great-great-grandparents". This is POV, unsupported by content or sources, and manifestly inaccurate: I'm a 32-year-old African American and my great-grandfather was enslaved. Slavery wasn't eons ago. You also say we shouldn't mention Obama's literal
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1522:) refers to descendants of U.S. slavery and its outworkings, and that immigrants typically don't use the term for themselves. These are obviously true statements and are supported by content and sources throughout the article. How and why you specifically may not be convinced seems irrelevant. Moreover, you implied that linking the
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someone else's editorial judgment. There is too much well-sourced content about
African Americans to fit it all in the lead. We have to decide somehow what to include. I think immigration should be mentioned; again, compared to my experience with good sources, I think the lead is weirdly hostile to Black immigrants.
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The issue with the prior statement is that it is not specific enough and it is causing erasure. Caribbean, Latin
American and Continental African immigrants all fall under the initial statement and they are not members of our ethnic group. You can not immigrate into an ethnic group. I can not provide
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Moreover, "too much for the lede" isn't really a reason. Too much "detail" relative to what? The lede would be too long? Their parentage doesn't matter? Immigration shouldn't be mentioned at all in relation to important individuals? Help me out here. This is a massive article with a relatively modest
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Are you two serious? When have Black
Americans been anything but the descendants of slaves in America? Where you are born doesn't determine what you are and we are the only ones who fall for this nonsense. The only place on earth where you sign documents and become another nationality. If you're born
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I couldn't disagree more. I take natemup at his word that the purpose of noting the parentage is to emphasize the importance of immigrant
African-Americans to the community overall. As I read natemup's proposed version, that's the main way that I read it. If we're worried about pushing the view that
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Firefangledfeathers, I agree with you in everything except one: I don't think that it's only up to editorial judgment whether to include the parentage of Obama / Harris in the lead. If we include that, we implicitly say that this is very important, and that can only mean one thing: Obama and Harris
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I am not sure how to phrase my objection in a way that would make sense to you. I feel like it already makes sense, but you've proposed some explanations that are very distant from what I'm trying to say. Let's say I wanted to include ~10 words about "Lift Every Voice and Sing", 10 words about soul
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We're pretty stuck. Rsk6400 and I think that details of Obama's and Harris's parentage are too much for the lead, you think otherwise. We've all presented reasons, and no one has said "prefer not to mention". When deciding what is too much detail for the lead, there are really no options other than
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is about adding new info to a page, not deciding what already-included info belongs in the lede. You have yet to provide any reason for not including certain info in the lede other than you "prefer not to mention" certain things there, per your most recent edit summary. You say we should discuss it
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As explained, I added an entire paragraph that includes statistics about the influence of immigration on the
African-American community. It concludes with the fact that the two most powerful African Americans in history are themselves second-generation immigrants. Removing this information from the
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I agree with natemup that the lead minimizes immigrant
African-Americans, but I don't think it's best resolved by including parentage details for Obama and Harris. I've moved that info to the body, where it was previously not presented at all. Something I'd love to do if I had the time: survey some
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And again, not mentioning it—in a paragraph immediately following descriptions of the importance of U.S. slavery to the term "African
American"—gives a false impression about Obama and Harris. Specifying their parentage does not make them less African American, but makes their identity more clear,
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Thanks for explaining the quote. In Rsk's summary the "prefer not to mention" was about mentioning Harris at all, not about the thing we're discussing here. I would say the lead is overlong already, so I am eager to cut it down, not expand it. POV and vibes is just a dismissive way of referring to
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Your preferred edits, which you have now restored via revert for the second time while decrying "edit warring", leave the lede somewhat incomprehensible: Obama and Harris, African
Americans who uniquely belong in the lede due to their service at the pinnacle of American government, are mentioned
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The information is not present in the body, which mentions neither Obama's nor Harris's mother. The part you added about influence of immigration needs could be appended to the end of the preceding paragraph, as it slots well into the chronology. I'm not sure why you wouldn't follow BRD on this,
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immigrants are not real African Americans—and I really do worry about that—there are other parts of the lead that need more attention than this proposal. Also, when we're evaluating language based on how the reader will interpret it, we're engaging our editorial judgment!
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food, 10 words about Jehovah's Witnesses, and 10 words about using "counseling" instead of "psychotherapy". Presume you oppose one or many of those. Is there a way you could phrase your opposition that couldn't be dismissed with "POV and vibes" or "personal preference"?
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I agree that Black descendants of U.S. slavery are a distinct ethnic group, but as it stands, this page is not limited to that group. How to fix that, I do not know. Maybe make a new page? There is a page for ADOS (though it's mostly about the organization/movement).
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minimized the importance of immigrants in the definition of "African American". It implied that Obama fits within that framework; he does not. I have actually added a new paragraph that actually reflects the article's content and the sources, noting that immigration
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are not real African Americans. Modern societies are built on the assumption that you belong to a group if you identify with the group and are accepted by the group. Obama identifies as African American, and he got something like 90% of the African-American vote.
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In short, there are many reasons why Obama and Harris having immigrant Black parents is very important. That's why the article already mentions their parentage in the body multiple times. That's why I belongs in the lede. In my opinion, it's a neutral fact worth
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In my opinion, that's the idea that only descendants of slavery are "conventional" African Americans. Since I don't believe in that idea (but would like to be convinced by good sources), I don't think the parents are important enough to be mentioned in the lead.
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Knowledge (XXG) follows the terms used by reliable sources, and the citation on this line does not contain the word European. European American is not a commonly-used term in this context, so we should stick to terms that more people will understand.
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info is already included in the body: their Black immigrant parents, which I connected to the preceding statistics. What paragraph it is included in makes no difference to me—though making the third paragraph any longer than it already is seems
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Can you change this sentence: "African Americans, also known as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, are an ethnic group consisting of Americans with partial or total ancestry from any of the Black racial groups of Africa."
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so what happens when more white south Africans start moving to the Americas, will they be "African American" too? Maybe we should start a page for American blacks" (the ethnic group, those of slave descent in America).
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You clearly restored Firefangledfeather's edits because you prefer them (and because they remove from the lede the info you previously removed from the lede), not because there was any consensus, sources, or
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But since the sources linking the term "African American" to slavery are now in question anyway, it seems prudent to figure out what the term really does refer to most often in (modern?) reliable sources.
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important to the identity, as seen in recent statistics and the fact that Obama (and Harris), second-generation immigrants, are the first two African Americans in the White House.
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highlighting the diversity that the community now comprises. (That diversity is a crucial evolution of the group, after all, and was previously left out the lede altogether.)
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in the lede, for reasons still unclear. In your position, which seems to be original research, it seems people can't be delineated by their distant ancestors
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after a statistic on immigrants but no mention is made that they are second-generation immigrants themselves. As such, I think my edits should be restored.
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There seems to be a misunderstanding: I didn't restore my "preferred edits" with my second revert, I restored Firefangledfeather's version. Also:
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Please stop edit warring ! If you see that another editor disagrees, you should not simply restore your edit, but start a discussion here, see
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If you need me to prove that I am Black American I would be more than happy to if it means our ethnic group can gain more specificity.
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the information from the lede about their parents, even though their paternal ancestry was certainly mentioned in the body already.)
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No one is gaming or wikilawyering. This is a garden variety content dispute. Maybe we seek out some dispute resolution?
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lede overall. Adding ~10 words is nothing and I've already explained why it makes sense given the lede as it stands.
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I request for where It says "African Americans constitute the third largest racial or ethnic group in the U.S after
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I was referring to the description already present in the lede, which says the term "African American" mostly (or
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Firstly, I don't have that idea and it isn't mentioned in my edits today. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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I can remove the part about their mothers, if that's really the issue. (Note that you removed
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Where it says "Most African Americans", it should say "Some" African Americans...
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Secondly, the lede abruptly mentioned Obama after multiple paragraphs that
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Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups
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Obama was originally introduced in the same lede paragraph linking the
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Notice you didn't respond to anything else I presented here.
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808:Collaborate
357:written in
161:free images
44:not a forum
2098:Categories
2038:|answered=
1946:|answered=
1903:FlightTime
1890:using the
1827:|answered=
1468:imprudent.
1385:themselves
1085:Place the
796:Rosa Parks
681:to-do list
638:To-do list
1999:Not done:
1882:consensus
1847:To this:
1095:template
683:assigned.
415:is rated
101:if needed
84:Be polite
34:talk page
2076:Not done
2004:Jamedeus
1754:contribs
1720:contribs
1679:contribs
1465:relevant
1455:contribs
1421:contribs
372:traveled
199:Archives
69:get help
42:This is
40:article.
2081:Rsk6400
1773:natemup
1731:Rsk6400
1693:natemup
1653:natemup
1640:WP:ONUS
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1367:Rsk6400
1363:WP:ONUS
1353:Natemup
1303:on the
1078:tasks:
1050:on the
790:Cleanup
706:history
666:refresh
656:history
615:on the
510:on the
417:C-class
368:defense
316:60Â days
167:WPÂ refs
155:scholar
1887:before
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1569:WP:BRD
1528:parent
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423:scale.
139:Google
2042:|ans=
2032:This
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716:purge
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364:color
182:JSTOR
143:books
97:Seek
2085:talk
2060:talk
2008:talk
1984:talk
1974:and
1966:and
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1138:Iyer
701:edit
651:edit
640:for
175:FENS
149:news
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