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case of Aja, it appears in the infobox section at the beginning of the article. What would you say about removing it from there? I recall that the policy about trans people favors only mentioning their pre-transition name if they had notability under that name (Caitlin Jenner and the
Wachowskis are the clearest examples). So, what would you say about removing it from the box? And about the "personal life" section?
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1485:. If that's really how Aja intends to be identified, it's obviously what we should do. However, would it be better to search for a source that makes explicit whether she was referring to herself in drag, out of drag or both with that statement? My line of thinking is that virtually all sourcing refers to Aja as
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Has anyone got a reliable secondary source for Aja's boyfriend's name? The Lyft article only mentions his
Twitter handle. Earlier I added Aja's Facebook as a reference strictly to cite the name. Now that reference has been removed, presumably because the other info in the sentence was already sourced
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Reopening this discussion because I notice a certain parallel with Blair St. Clair. Blair has made it inequivocal her desire to not be referred as her legal name and the article doesn't even mention it. Same happens with Gia Gunn. Peppermint's only mentions it in the "Personal life" section. In the
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out of drag (referenced by the video
Umimmak found in February); that hasn't left the article. Aja was in drag in the video when she/they made that statement, but whereas our best interpretation above was that it probably referred only to Jay, now I lean toward thinking it also refers to Aja.
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in light of this, though I'm happy to have those modified or reverted if other input suggests a better solution. It is worth noting that, upon investigating the sentence about Aja's mother, I discovered that neither of the two inline citations after it supported the claim, so I removed it
289:, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's
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I'm not sure what I think, but just to play devil's advocate: a lot of secondary sources refer to Aja as a drag queen and I think it would be ideal if a secondary source, i.e., not an interview, referred to Aja as a queer artist before changing. In a broadly similar vein,
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doesn't mean gender-neutral or non-binary, but it's not because of that term that I note the change; it's because Aja herself/themself reinforced a desire to be known by gender-neutral pronouns together with the announcement about being a queer artist (see Tweets such as
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I agree, I wish there was more sourcing to help clarify and confirm. I don't feel too strongly, and I was mostly concerned before, when there was no confirmation about identify whatsoever. At least now there is video of Aja confirming a preference for they/them/their.
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I don't mind changing "drag queen" to "drag artist", but I also acknowledge more sources refer to Aja as a "drag queen". However, re: "queer", I think adding brief mention and keeping
Category:Queer artists are appropriate because Aja has self-identified in this way.
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I think an encyclopedic person's significant other is relevant to mention in the "Personal life" section. It seems to be standard practice, too. And in this case, the boyfriend was an integral part of a newsworthy incident involving the article's subject.
2568:– The subject to the article has been distancing themselves from the "drag queen" label and focusing on a music career and burlesque performances. Statements in twitter and interviews about the desire to no longer being a drag queen are provided below.
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Here we have a case of several word options, coupled with the belief the subject finds being labeled, for life, on the world’s number one source of information, as a drag queen derogatory. I think there’s little reason to fight against that change.
305:; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the
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Yeah, I'm not sure they prefer different pronouns based on whether they are in drag or not, but I suppose anything is possible. Since the statement was made in drag, perhaps we just say, "Aja identifies..." and not "Rivera identifies..."
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in the absence of a more clear-cut source indicating that the genderfluid pronouns also extend to when Aja is in drag. But perhaps others will feel differently or will interpret the sourced video as you did instead of as I did. Maybe
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There doesn't seem to be any secondary coverage for the video yet. What about using the YouTube video itself as a citation (just to prove its existence) until someone reports on it? I figure since it's only in the table anyway ...
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this move and the creation of the aforementioned disambiguation page. I would also be open to alternatives like Aja (rapper) or Aja (musician) should someone feel strongly, but I would prefer the most general term (entertainer).
2218:"It’s like are y’all for real lol someone went on it and fixed all of it up and then I saw it just now and it’s like stuff that’s not even true lol like I’m not Libyan and it says that, also I was not adopted by a single mother"
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I can't find any internet sources that clarify Aja's out-of-drag gender identity or pronouns--male, genderfluid or otherwise. Where did this assumption come from for the article? Also, would it be better to refer to Aja as
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pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included
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Given recent coverage of the fact that Aja no longer identifies as a drag queen, some of which is presently used as sourcing in this article, should we change the title of this page to something else? If so, what?
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Just a note: plenty of RS refer to the subject as a musician and rapper. Much, if not most, of the most recent sourcing also refers to them as a "former drag queen" or otherwise mentions they no longer do drag.
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or whether that also applies to the persona Aja. I added it as a ref as it was the only one I knew of off hand where pronouns were explicitly mentioned. I think it's probably safe to use
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Thoughts on how to proceed? Previously, we have used Aja's Tweets to source a limited amount of personal info here, though it was one of those Tweets that claimed they were Libyan
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I still haven't made up my mind on the overall, but I am definitely opposed to the subject of the article have any control over the article including the disambiguation term.
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The essence of BLP surely includes the concept of avoiding needless harm, by editorial choices, and skewing conservatively if we believe the subject feels a certain way.
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As a suggestion maybe see if someone from OTRS or elsewhere can reach out to Aja on how to interact with the article in a more constructive way, whatever that could be.
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Also, it appears that at some point in the past hour, Aja deleted last year's Tweets about their ethnicity. Naturally, the archived versions are still visible.
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I've discovered the reason for the spate of IP and single-use account edits we've gotten on this article in the past 24 hours. Aja has been
Tweeting about it:
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Alright, I've changed the pronouns. I agree that the article should mention Aja's gender explicitly, but IMO it already does: the
Personal life section says,
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I'm comfortable with you moving forward with updating the article as you see fit, and letting others review and discuss here if there are concerns. Per the
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2228:"My mom is Egyptian-American and my dad is Nigerian-American. / I’m not a drag queen anymore. / Like do I need to make a list of things wrong with it 💀"
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only notability is as a drag queen per sources, not as "rapper" or "musician" - and certainly not as "entertainer" which is a
Wikipediaism, not English.
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To improve clarity and flow, I've done some reorganization of that section, including grouping the pronoun sentence with the gender identity sentence.
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Since Aja's announcement about wanting to be known as a queer artist rather than a drag queen last month, secondary sources have begun to use singular
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even when referring to Aja in drag. Those three sources are currently in the article. We also still have the sourced statement that Aja goes by
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procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been
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I had understood that to refer to her out-of-drag pronouns, but do you think it's also for when she is (they are?) in drag? Now I'm not sure.
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IMO, queer does not mean gender neutral or non-binary, but we should follow sourcing and ideally include mention of their identification. ---
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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on the show, in news media, and on most social media. I would say that in the
Personal life section, it might be more appropriate to use
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2587:"Thank you to whomever edited my Knowledge page. Now if we can get them to remove the (drag queen) part lol / Any who’s who edited it?"
2208:"Thank you to whomever edited my Knowledge page. Now if we can get them to remove the (drag queen) part lol / Any who’s who edited it?"
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does not identify as a drag queen, acquiescing to the description of "drag artist" if necessary, but the article still has the category
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on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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2238:"I forgot to mention the worst part is that my dead name is on Knowledge. Also it’s not even my real dead name. Tragedy"
1598:) 19:41, 24 February 2018 (UTC) Update: I also just re-watched the first episode of Season 9 and Aja says "Aja is banji,
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in combination with out-of-drag pronouns. But otherwise (including in the Music section), my suggestion would be to use
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I know almost nothing about Aja but I’ll add this to my watchlist. I can offer general opinions though as they come up.
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Pinging just in case, since I've made subsequent edits to this talk page and you might not see bump in watchlist. ---
989:-related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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2692:. A drag queen pretty much by definition is an entertainer, per BLP we should be a bit sensitive to Aja’s wishes.
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More to the point, are boyfriends notable/encyclopedic enough for inclusion, even if there were reliable sources?
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by secondary coverage. If we don't get Ty's name from another place, though, I suppose it will have to go.
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There's reliable coverage stating he goes by Lizard Lemon, but I don't see anything with his real name. --
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1610:'s dangerous" So I think it's safe to use "she" to refer to Rivera's drag persona but "they" to Rivera.
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Ha, seems like we had the same thought at the same time, as I just added some info from that source :-D
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Update: The unsourced claim has been removed, but "they" still appears throughout the article. ---
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Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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I think it would be better to leave it out until/unless he shows up again as significant.
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If anyone needs something maybe start a talk page task list and I can help that way.
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source above, I think the article should mention gender neutrality specifically. ---
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Yeah it's unfortunate the interview wasn't more explicit as to whether Rivera uses
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All right, I decided to be bold and propose the move. Aja has tweeted about this:
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later coming to identify as genderqueer after learning about non-binary identities
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expressed gender self-identification. Many, but not all, non-binary people go by
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I'd be fine with that, but it would also mean changing all feminine pronouns to
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Articles created or improved during WikiProject United States' 50,000 Challenge
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this queen will leave you mesmerized with her precision, wit and eclecticism.
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itself) without a good, reliable source that makes it absolutely clear.
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drag style is very the streets of Tokyo meets the streets of Brooklyn.
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read strangely to me, as Aja (in drag) is exclusively referred to as
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Primary sourcing seems ok until secondary coverage can be found. ---
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Me, too, so I'll go ahead and add while we continue discussing. ---
1979:"Why 'Drag Race' Alum Aja Is No Longer Using the Term 'Drag Queen'"
1779:"Why 'Drag Race' Alum Aja Is No Longer Using the Term 'Drag Queen'"
559:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
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https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/12/20/aja-trans-woman-drag-race/
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This article was created or improved during this WikiProject's
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And also mentioned it during an interview with Rolling Stone:
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sources can be used to cite themselves), but feel free to RV.
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Hopefully a more explicit source will come forth eventually.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this
2596:/ Like do I need to make a list of things wrong with it 💀"
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is this something that you can help with or offer input on?
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when discussing her activities in drag, such as her time on
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https://www.them.us/story/aja-rapper-name-change-interview
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Shall we add "queer artist" to the lead, then, as well as
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Articles created or improved during Wiki Loves Pride 2019
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Articles created or improved during Wiki Loves Pride 2018
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guideline because it contains material about one or more
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https://twitter.com/ajaqueen/status/1210285649212911616
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https://twitter.com/ajaqueen/status/1210397380316737536
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for Rivera. The official website for Aja seems to use
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IMO it would be safer to continue referring to Aja as
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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Low-importance Hispanic and Latino American articles
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Rivera lived as a trans woman for a year at age 18,
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Have you changed your mind, given Reference #18? ---
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1977:Street, Mikelle (July 3, 2018).
1777:Street, Mikelle (July 3, 2018).
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2482:How about "Aja (entertainer)"
2304:Thanks. I've made a couple of
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1243:This article is supported by
1203:This article is supported by
993:and see a list of open tasks.
916:This article is supported by
778:Knowledge:WikiProject Hip hop
661:and see a list of open tasks.
593:This article is supported by
363:biographies of living persons
261:contentious topics procedures
53:Put new text under old text.
3009:WikiProject Hip hop articles
2851:15:54, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
2828:15:49, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
2813:15:24, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
2737:13:38, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
2719:13:18, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
2702:10:34, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
2681:14:59, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
2665:09:57, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
2646:18:11, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
2629:17:50, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
2578:17:43, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
2556:13:57, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
2371:00:29, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
2348:22:51, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
2323:02:59, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
2293:02:19, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
2265:01:43, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
1903:00:12, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
781:Template:WikiProject Hip hop
557:contribute to the discussion
2546:per the discussion below.
2506:08:27, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
2492:07:53, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
2428:19:08, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
2400:02:53, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
1933:I put it in for now (since
1751:23:21, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
1740:22:27, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
1721:00:03, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
1697:14:12, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
1668:13:38, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
1647:09:27, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
1576:for the drag character and
1294:Gender fluid, use of "they"
375:must be removed immediately
61:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
3115:
2979:B-Class Drag Race articles
2954:B-Class biography articles
2925:15:18, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
2775:
1206:WikiProject American music
1171:project's importance scale
1025:project's importance scale
919:the LGBT Person task force
804:project's importance scale
693:project's importance scale
475:Knowledge:Wiki Loves Pride
2223:"Fix my like for real"
2195:20:20, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
1964:01:58, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
1944:01:40, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
1925:01:34, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
1640:. Should we follow suit?
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91:Be welcoming to newcomers
2999:B-Class Hip hop articles
2755:Please do not modify it.
2530:Please do not modify it.
2154:00:10, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
2133:22:45, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
2096:21:56, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
2076:21:23, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
2065:20:47, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
2034:20:45, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
2010:00:52, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
1998:00:12, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
1106:United States of America
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709:This article was a past
257:normal editorial process
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2600:(Emphasis added by me)
2016:Category:Queer artists
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311:, or, in the case of
111:Neutral point of view
18:Talk:Aja (drag queen)
1835:
1093:United States portal
974:New York City portal
249:purpose of Knowledge
116:No original research
2793:Do you mind moving
1119:Articles Requested!
1057:Hispanic and Latino
757:WikiProject Hip hop
2544:moved as requested
2496:Seems good to me.
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2382:— Preceding
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1795:. Retrieved
1791:the original
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1198:Music portal
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1130:Project Talk
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889:LGBT studies
880:project page
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861:LGBTQ portal
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30:This is the
2763:move review
2729:Gleeanon409
2694:Gleeanon409
2611:Currently,
2535:move review
2498:Gleeanon409
2363:Gleeanon409
2334:Gleeanon409
2168:Name change
1895:Gleeanon409
1529:and Jay as
1402:Agreed. ---
159:free images
42:not a forum
2933:Categories
2436:Page title
2308:(sourced)
1935:WP:PRIMARY
1816:|dead-url=
1787:Condé Nast
1765:References
1356:is called
884:discussion
770:discussion
283:non-binary
242:designated
2899:Legendary
2892:Legendary
2759:talk page
2453:Updates:
2313:entirely.
2250:Pinging:
1818:ignored (
1807:cite news
1606:'s cute.
1300:this diff
664:Drag Race
620:Drag Race
566:Biography
511:Musicians
506:Biography
379:libellous
295:singular
255:, or any
99:if needed
82:Be polite
32:talk page
2833:Dekimasu
2820:Dekimasu
2789:Dekimasu
2782:Resolved
2772:Category
2761:or in a
2548:Dekimasu
2396:contribs
2384:unsigned
2117:Lypsinka
339:deletion
285:people.
197:Archives
67:get help
40:This is
38:article.
2707:Comment
2690:Support
2636:support
2340:MPS1992
2310:changes
2256:Umimmak
2125:Umimmak
2041:Umimmak
1990:Umimmak
1869:Umimmak
1797:July 4,
1612:Umimmak
1592:Umimmak
1584:, e.g.
1538:Umimmak
1169:on the
1023:on the
802:on the
775:Hip hop
762:hip hop
734:Hip hop
691:on the
411:B-class
165:WP refs
153:scholar
2711:Naraht
2653:Oppose
1855:Kbabej
1370:Rivera
1135:Alerts
832:Person
417:scale.
313:living
291:latest
137:Google
2412:. ---
2277:. ---
2018:? ---
1931:Edit:
1703:Metro
1674:queer
1053:Music
876:LGBTQ
180:JSTOR
141:books
95:Seek
2919:Talk
2880:Talk
2845:Talk
2807:Talk
2733:talk
2715:talk
2698:talk
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2306:bold
2287:Talk
2189:Talk
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2090:Talk
2059:Talk
2043:and
2028:Talk
1994:talk
1983:them
1958:Talk
1899:talk
1873:talk
1859:talk
1824:help
1799:2018
1783:them
1715:Talk
1687:they
1683:they
1679:this
1662:Talk
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1578:they
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1491:RPDR
1471:Talk
1439:Talk
1412:Talk
1380:and
1368:(or
1358:they
1350:RPDR
1333:Talk
1312:Talk
555:and
467:2019
465:and
463:2018
347:keep
345:was
297:they
236:The
173:FENS
147:news
84:and
2909:---
2870:---
2179:---
1608:She
1604:She
1600:her
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1382:she
1378:Aja
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1366:Jay
1362:she
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1346:she
1161:Low
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794:Low
683:Mid
368:BLP
187:TWL
2935::
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2824:よ!
2753:.
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2634:I
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2564:→
2552:よ!
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