2093:, "On April 16, an IDF tank fired an antipersonnel shell dispensing metal darts into the central Gaza strip, killing Reuters cameraman Fadel Shanaâa and three others, including a 14-year-old and 17-year-old. HRW claimed there was evidence the tank crew knowingly targeted the journalist. According to Palestinian NGOs, Shanaâa was covering the aftermath of a missile attack near Juhor al-Dik earlier that day, in which two missiles fired from an Israeli aircraft killed three adults and six minors and wounded six adults and 12 minors. In August the IDF announced its investigation cleared the tank crew, but several human rights organizations criticized the IDFâs investigations as lacking seriousness." Sounds about right for IDF behavior.
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battle between the IDF and Hamas resulted in 3 IDF soldiers killed 14 Palestinians killed , including multiple children. (see the
Guardian reference in the article). Then, a later one in the afternoon in nearby Bureij, where a tank fired a flechette shell that killed the Reuters cameraman and 3 others. It is the former incident that the Alarby article is referencing - note the mention of airstrikes - but munging it up with the later incident which is the subject of the article.
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2309:. And no, I won't be calling for those other articles called "massacre" to be renamed, because what you fail to understand, here, and in the case of those articles, is that we don't name articles according to what they "sound like" or "look like" to us, as editors. Nor do we go by the nationality of the victims. We go by what these events are called in reliable source. The
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1766:: A consensus has developed that the word "incident" is not suitable for this article. During the discussion, editors both supporting and opposing the move were generally receptive to moving the article to "2008 Bureij killings" or similar. I therefore find that there is a rough consensus to moving this article to "2008 Bureij killings".
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incident is called massacre, vs. the earlier one), when we have clear evidence that some other statements in the very same sentence are clearly wrong (airstrike vs. tank shell)? That would seem to be evidence that the source in question in not reliable, as it is not able to get basic facts about the
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I am not convinced it is reliable, but in any case it is about a different incident. I think that what is being missed here, due to the very sloppy reporting, even by
Reuters, is that there were several different incidents that day - an early one, involving airstrikes in or near Johr el-Diek, where a
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Take imemc to the reliable noticeboard, and see what they think. It should be entertaining to see people argue for the reliability of the mouthpiece of an organization that has the somewhat unique distinction of being called antisemitic by both pro- and anti-Israel groups, and which its own
Knowledge
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The
Reuters cameraman again settles it. (there was an earlier missile attack that killed civilians, and the Reuters cameraman was coming from that location when he was killed. In the early reporting, the two attacks tended to reported together and no-one was entirely sure whether it was airstrike or
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Firstly: Stop falcifying my words. I never said/claimed that "if 13 Israeli citizens were killed it would be called a "massacre"; I said that the killing of 13 unarmed
Israeli civilians would never be called "an incident". That's quite a difference. There are a lot of words between "a massacre" and
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That doesn't answer the question I asked. Are you querying IMEMC reliability for the statement "Al-Bureij was the site of a 2008 attack which has come to be known, locally, as the âAl Bureij massacreâ, in which
Israeli airstrikes killed ten Palestinians, including three young children and a Reuters
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Both HRW and the UN are secondary sources. Primary sources would be the doctors reporting on his death, or the
Israeli authorities giving their version of the events. For that matter, since this is Reuters reporting on the death of one of their employees, working on an assignment for them, I'd say
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Fascinating that the history shows one editor trying to edit war "incident" in (who ya tryin to kid?) a couple years back and then another trying to delete the article altogether en passant and yet the article has survived since 2008 as is, notwithstanding. Maybe because it looks like a massacre,
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Becoming a project doesn't mean what you think it means, IAK set up another website that reruns news from IMEMC. Alaraby isn't a reliable source, since when? The New Arab is used all the time, take it to RSN if you disagree. For that matter on what basis are you asserting IMEMC isn't a reliable
2443:. Perhaps you know something about the author of the piece in question, one "Celine Hagbard"? Any reputable credentials as a journalist? is she an expert on the mid-East? As far as I can tell from a Google search, she does not exist beyond the confines of the imemc website.
2298:). My point was that your claim that if 13 Israeli citizens were killed it would be called a "massacre" is false, and laughably so. Virtually every massacre of Israeli civilians in a Hamas suicide bombing is called a "bombing', not a "massacre" (or even a "killing") - e.g
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Of course you were, you wrote "Re Talk:Bat
Mitzvah massacre#Requested move 22 June 2022, please familiarize yourself with WP:HEADLINES ..." in the comment I was responding to. Indeed, you are not my granny, she's a much nicer and more collaborative person.
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it's name should be Al Bureij massacre. Incidentally, would the killing of 13 other unarmed
Israeli civilians, including eight children, ever be considered an "incident"? Of course not, and I suspect anyone suggesting it, would be branded "anti-semitic",
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The imemc article is unreliable because it mentions the event in passing (i.e., it is neither report nor analysis) and gives wrong number of killed. Finally, it is redundant: there are three good detailed sources already for this single sentence.
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I think Shana could just be redirected to an article on the shelling. I dont think TV Crew killing works because most of those killed had no association with the crew being random innocent bystanders. 2008 Bureij killings might work.
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Evidence please (not your opinion) that IMEMC is a mouthpiece for IAK (assuming that's what you meant, its not very clear). Celine
Hagbard is a journalist, is your argument that the IMEMC article is an opinion piece by her?
2110:, not necessarily to proposed name. None of the sources cited in the article call it a massacre so it's clearly not a common name and needs to go. The HRW report call it an incident so it might work as a neutral term.
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Where can I read about "Celine Hagbard"'s credentials as a journalist? I honestly think it's a made up name. Like I said, take imemc to the noticeboard if you think it is reliable. Should be good for a laugh or two.
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You wrote "But it may do you good to read Knowledge (XXG):Article titles, the second paragraph says "Generally, article titles are based on what the subject is called in reliable sources"." and I responded to that.
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Thirdly, what you fail to understand, is that many (most) of our readers will find wikipedia plain racist, when we call 6 killed Israeli for "a massacre", while 9 killed Palestinian gets reduced to "an incident",
1819:- euphemistic in the extreme, an "incident" in which an army kills 6 children and a cameraman, and all casualties are civilians? No source calls it an incident either. As far as sources calling it a massacre, well
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Neither imemc nor alaraby are reliable sources, and the alaraby article refers to a different incident, involving an airstrike, nor this one - a tank shelling. We go by what reliable source call an event.
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Oh? you're not really familiar with the sources you suggest we use for controversial, POV article-naming? "In 2021, the IMEMC became a project of the American nonprofit organization If Americans Knew."
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Nope again, multiple RS reported initially on both incidents together and later became subject of separate reporting. That The New Arab calls it an airstrike doesn't matter, so did lots of other RS.
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Imemc is not a reliable source, which is why it was removed. As you wrote above, you may think it is 'euphemistic', but we go by sources, not what you think. I am open to names other than incident.
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Yes, and this is an article about an incident in which a Reuters cameraman was killed by a tank shell, not an airstrike. Are we supposed to cherry-pick statements we think are right (that
3156:, pick one. Same with anything else we want to call a "massacre" this century. To the extremists: prosecutors who charge mob bosses with 100 murders get nothing, while those who hit them
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The al-Araby article says: "Bureij was the site of the 2008 "Bureij Massacre", when 10 civilians, including three children and a Reuters cameraman, were killed by an Israeli airstrike",
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According to who? Reuters themselves, in their reporting on the incident, said 2 others were killed: "Two youths passing by died in the same explosion that killed Shana, witnesses said"
2858:"Whether a specific news story is reliable for a fact or statement should be examined on a case-by-case basis." That's what we are doing now and no-one else is agreeing with you so far.
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is a reliable source - i.e - known for fact checking and error corrections etc..- I suggest you take it to the reliable sources noticeboard and see what uninvolved editors think.
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cameraman." or Celine Hagbard reliability (ie the article is an opinion piece not a news article as we do not usually investigate journalists who write for news sources).
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The Reuters report you quote is from April 16 the night it happened whereas the Reuters report in the article is from August 13 when the full facts would have been known,
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source? It's not a different killing, the Reuters cameraman mention should tell you that. I am getting the impression you are just making this stuff up as you go along.
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That's good to know, and as I wrote, I am ok with names other than incident. Can we agree on "Bureij Tank shelling", or "Bureij TV Crew killing", along the lines of
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I just explained that above, multiple RS report it initially as airstrike, but regardless of the killing mechanism, it was still a massacre of civilians.
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Interesting. So this move discussion was both raised by one sock and supported by another. That considerably undermines the legitimacy of the consensus.
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sources do not call this event "massacre". However the text must mention that pro-Palestinian sources and locals use the term "Al Bureij massacre", per
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incident was called a massacre. No reliable source calls this incident, where a cameraman and 3 others were killed by a tank shell, a "massacre".
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When you have a consensus that it isn't reliable, I might do that, right now we just have your evidence free assertion, which is worth zero.
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is absurd. Israel was accused of a war crime here, every casualty was an unarmed civilian, and they were purposely targeted. Calling this an
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2492:(XXG) article acknowledges it has made false claims regarding Israel. BTW, have you come up with any info regarding "Celine Hagbard"?
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incident (in the morning, in a different nearby place, involving an airstrike), and one source of questionable reliability said
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1494:"Massacre" is a loaded term and is POV. "Incident" is NPOV. My edit was made in good faith and should not have been reversed.
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Sources determine what is POV, not users. And how would you describe the killing of ten civilians including three children?
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2320:. Here, there are no reliable sources that call this event a 'massacre', so it can't be called that. It's that simple.
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I wasn't discussing that, I was discussing your attempt to lecture me about WP policies. I'm not your granny either.
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No, that's not the way things work. Sources are not reliable by default. You need to show why it is reliable.
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Why would a Reuters article about the investigation be a better source than an HRW report on the incident?
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consider it to be reliable about the opinions/statements from the Iranian leaders. Just like I consider
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This stub seems biased in favor of the Palestinian side (absence of NPV). My opinion only, of course.
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Sources aren't reliable by default. If you want to assert that the mouthpiece of the activist group
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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I think IMEMC is not reliable and should not be used, period. You can take it to the noticeboard.
2277:(11 dead). I will expect you to nominate all those for remaining, too, in case this pass, cheers,
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As I wrote above, I am open to names other than "incident" (e.g. "Killing" as suggested by
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I have explained that, it is easy to explain, your attempt at obfuscation notwithstanding.
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That works for me (rename to "2008 Bureij killings", redirect Shana'a's article there) .
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close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved.
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Or, as an alternative - since this article is essentially the same, content wise, as
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A week later is not long enough and probably relies on the primary reports
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Thanks, this will not be needed, as above. But it may do you good to read
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975:. For guidelines and a participants list see the project page. See also
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I don't see anything about Bureij in there, can you provide a quote?
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Incident is a euphemistic whitewash for what occurred. Would support
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3288:(I do not in general consider tehrantimes.com to be a RS; but I
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why do we use "Al Bureij" when the location's article is titled
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thy are more of a primary source than either HRW or the UN. per
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Secondly: you are wrong. There are RS calling this "a massacre"
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Good question, doesn't it mean "The"? So like you would use in
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None of the sources used in the article call it a massacre
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Why? Dead bodies on the scene can be counted within hours.
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Secondary sources are always preferred to primary sources
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Just asserting things arent reliable isnt an argument.
2339:"an incident"; say, "killing", bombing", "attack", etc.
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Because Reuters is a better source for fact checking.
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to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for
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For future reference; both the Palestinian President
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Talk:Bat Mitzvah massacre#Requested move 22 June 2022
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Talk:Bat Mitzvah massacre#Requested move 22 June 2022
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Start-Class Middle Eastern military history articles
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and don't bother teaching grandmother to suck eggs.
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This article has been checked against the following
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2156:London (something) as opposed to just in London.
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2198:2008 killings in Bureij or similar would be ok.
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2313:is called a massacre by reliable sources (e.g
999:Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars
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1939:is even more POV than calling it a massacre.
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1636:Here's the UN report, from a week later.
2459:And your objection to Al Araby is what?
1415:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography
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1931:Im not opposed to some move here, but
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3099:Yes, and in doing so, you brought up
1860:Who said it is an unreliable source?
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1540:Which sources call this a massacre?
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196:Warning: active arbitration remedies
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347:It is of interest to the following
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23:for discussing improvements to the
3394:Start-Class Crime-related articles
3369:Start-Class Post-Cold War articles
2726:No, multiple source reported on a
606:Unassessed Israel-related articles
513:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Israel
14:
3374:Post-Cold War task force articles
2242:You might want to take a look at
801:Israel articles needing attention
784:Israel articles needing infoboxes
408:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Death
50:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome!
3282:and the Iranian Foreign Ministry
3179:The discussion above is closed.
1907:That's what I said in my !vote.
1405:
1384:
1333:where you can contribute to the
1294:
1284:
1263:
1176:
1165:
1154:
1143:
1132:
1062:
1034:
958:
940:
627:Cleanup listing for this project
583:
480:
470:
449:
381:
360:
329:
188:
45:Click here to start a new topic.
2939:And if not, we're here to help.
1448:This article has been rated as
1363:This article has been rated as
817:Module:Location map/data/Israel
533:This article has been rated as
428:This article has been rated as
3389:WikiProject Palestine articles
2956:Knowledge (XXG):Article titles
2267:Yeshivat Beit Yisrael massacre
1764:Move to "2008 Bureij killings"
1716:That's Reuters, in this case.
1346:Template:WikiProject Palestine
1008:Israel Palestine Collaboration
948:Israel Palestine Collaboration
764:Add geographic coordinates to
678:Participate in discussions at
1:
3329:Low-importance Death articles
1891:It is reliable for its name.
1422:and see a list of open tasks.
507:and see a list of open tasks.
402:and see a list of open tasks.
244:contentious topics procedures
42:Put new text under old text.
3266:20:59, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
3249:07:57, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
3220:07:56, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
3197:07:43, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
2244:Dizengoff Street bus bombing
1960:Dizengoff Street bus bombing
1534:19:41, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
1519:18:20, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
1425:Crime and Criminal Biography
1392:Crime and Criminal Biography
1072:Military history WikiProject
980:Palestine-Israel enforcement
973:IsraeliâPalestinian conflict
849:Add pictures to articles in
3344:WikiProject Israel articles
2089:civilians, kids, a journo,
1736:Requested move 19 June 2022
1485:23:35, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
736:Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu
516:Template:WikiProject Israel
3420:
3324:Start-Class Death articles
3256:Restored original name. --
1504:23:59, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
1454:project's importance scale
1369:project's importance scale
1349:Palestine-related articles
1137:Referencing and citation:
819:. Add maps to articles in
700:Diamond industry in Israel
539:project's importance scale
434:project's importance scale
411:Template:WikiProject Death
295:purpose of Knowledge (XXG)
232:purpose of Knowledge (XXG)
213:You must be logged-in and
3310:21:25, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
3174:18:19, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
3113:14:20, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
3094:14:16, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
3077:14:09, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
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3045:12:52, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
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3010:11:55, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
2992:08:20, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
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2868:23:30, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
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2818:23:18, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
2803:23:03, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
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2760:23:26, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
2744:23:23, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
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2626:22:37, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
2607:23:04, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
2588:23:19, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
2572:23:13, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
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2519:22:23, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
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2433:21:09, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
2416:21:04, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
2396:20:56, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
2362:20:38, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
2330:01:18, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
2304:Afula bus suicide bombing
2300:Patt Junction Bus bombing
2287:20:20, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
2255:00:05, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
2233:23:37, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
2208:00:07, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
2189:23:04, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
2166:22:48, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
2148:21:19, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
2120:19:52, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
2103:18:58, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
2081:18:45, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
2055:03:56, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
2027:23:15, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
2011:23:10, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
1993:23:01, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
1972:22:29, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
1950:22:22, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
1917:19:45, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
1902:19:34, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
1887:18:49, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
1871:01:32, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
1854:00:19, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
1834:00:11, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
1809:23:37, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
1783:22:44, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
1726:00:35, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
1702:00:07, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
1685:00:01, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
1670:23:51, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
1649:23:44, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
1631:23:40, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
1616:23:33, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
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1577:23:19, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
1550:23:19, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
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1095:military history articles
1057:
953:
545:
532:
465:
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376:
355:
246:before editing this page.
80:Be welcoming to newcomers
3285:calls this a massacre.
3181:Please do not modify it.
2924:Please do not modify it.
1750:Please do not modify it.
1245:Post-Cold War task force
759:Geographical coordinates
303:normal editorial process
240:normal editorial process
2275:Ma'ale Akrabim massacre
2177:2008 killings in Bureij
1203:Associated task forces:
1148:Coverage and accuracy:
991:discretionary sanctions
728:Public Defence (Israel)
629:is available. See also
519:Israel-related articles
309:Arbitration enforcement
1434:Crime-related articles
1240:
1224:
1181:Supporting materials:
1109:
995:log of blocks and bans
337:This article is rated
299:standards of behaviour
236:standards of behaviour
75:avoid personal attacks
3258:Supreme Deliciousness
2271:Mercaz HaRav massacre
1310:WikiProject Palestine
1239:
1223:
1108:
550:Project Israel To Do:
341:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
205:ArabâIsraeli conflict
100:Neutral point of view
3101:Bat Mitzvah massacre
2311:Bat Mitzvah massacre
2263:Bat Mitzvah massacre
635:the tool's wiki page
631:the list by category
289:After being warned,
219:making edit requests
105:No original research
2318:Kafr Qasim massacre
1170:Grammar and style:
1123:for B-class status:
899:Translate to Hebrew
253:Further information
1794:Al Bureij incident
1789:Al Bureij massacre
1323:State of Palestine
1319:Palestinian people
1241:
1225:
1110:
1077:list of open tasks
815:See discussion at
496:WikiProject Israel
343:content assessment
291:contentious topics
269:
267:make edit requests
215:extended-confirmed
201:contentious topics
197:
86:dispute resolution
47:
25:Al Bureij killings
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2422:What mouthpiece?
2404:If Americans Knew
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716:Sephardic Haredim
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19:This is the
3294:Arutz Sheva
3189:Iskandar323
3105:Izzy Borden
3086:Selfstudier
3069:Izzy Borden
3053:Selfstudier
3037:Izzy Borden
3018:Selfstudier
3002:Izzy Borden
2984:Selfstudier
2960:Izzy Borden
2941:Selfstudier
2860:Selfstudier
2841:Izzy Borden
2826:Selfstudier
2810:Izzy Borden
2795:Selfstudier
2778:Izzy Borden
2752:Selfstudier
2736:Izzy Borden
2713:Selfstudier
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2618:Selfstudier
2599:Selfstudier
2580:Selfstudier
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2528:Izzy Borden
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2478:Selfstudier
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2374:Izzy Borden
2322:Izzy Borden
2296:Selfstudier
2269:(11 dead),
2247:Izzy Borden
2200:Izzy Borden
2181:Selfstudier
2179:or similar.
2158:Selfstudier
2095:Selfstudier
2073:Loew Galitz
2064:. Reliable
2058:Banned Sock
2019:Izzy Borden
1985:Izzy Borden
1964:Izzy Borden
1909:Loew Galitz
1879:Loew Galitz
1846:Izzy Borden
1801:Izzy Borden
1755:move review
1718:Izzy Borden
1694:Atlantic306
1677:Izzy Borden
1662:Atlantic306
1641:Izzy Borden
1623:Atlantic306
1608:Izzy Borden
1586:Atlantic306
1569:Izzy Borden
1542:Izzy Borden
1335:discussions
1159:Structure:
1047:Middle East
643:Collaborate
339:Start-class
148:free images
31:not a forum
3318:Categories
3231:voices. -
2916:Off topic
2856:WP:NEWSORG
2273:(8 dead),
2265:(6 dead),
2116:Âżquestion?
2047:Seggallion
1710:WP:PRIMARY
1511:Dunutubble
912:Guy Oseary
704:Edna Arbel
3166:SamuelRiv
2728:different
1340:Palestine
1315:Palestine
1271:Palestine
1003:talk page
908:Guy Bavli
747:See also
603:Rate the
301:, or any
274:required.
238:, or any
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
3271:Massacre
2513:nableezy
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2091:you know
2005:nableezy
1944:nableezy
1937:incident
1933:incident
1896:nableezy
1865:nableezy
1828:nableezy
1775:Spekkios
1528:nableezy
1509:Agreed.
1321:and the
1120:criteria
793:Maintain
660:Copyedit
265:only to
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
3229:support
3154:killing
2125:Comment
2112:Alaexis
2108:Support
2086:Comment
2066:neutral
2062:Support
2043:Support
1452:on the
1367:on the
776:Infobox
621:Cleanup
564:history
537:on the
432:on the
154:WPÂ refs
142:scholar
3302:Huldra
2544:Huldra
2354:Huldra
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2173:Oppose
2129:Bureij
1817:Oppose
1812:sock
997:, and
993:, the
987:ArbCom
985:, the
910:, and
878:Update
690:Expand
598:Assess
510:Israel
501:Israel
457:Israel
345:scale.
126:Google
3226:valid
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1496:5JVL9
1477:MKWat
890:Other
861:Stubs
844:Photo
574:purge
569:watch
405:Death
396:Death
368:Death
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
3306:talk
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3193:talk
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3116:sock
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1471:Bias
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559:edit
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