722:("Comité français de la libération nationale"). It actually stopped using the term "Free France", since it was a merging of two different organizations. The Free French Forces merged with the French North African Army and became the "French liberation Army" (Armée française de la libération), which did not use the cross of lorraine as its official symbol (but former Free French Forces kept using it). Actually there is some debate whether Free France still existed after 1943, but De Gaulle eliminated Giraud after a few months, so the new Committee was actually a continuation of Free France. In mid-1943 "Free France" controlled all french colonies (with the exception of
31:
492:" Only a part of France supported this decision. Another part didn't obey that and continued to resist. Both Vichy and Free French may be considered successors of Third Republic with equal ground. With regards to colonies or occupied countries, I agree, especially regarding Iraq, where a pro-Nazi coup was suppressed by external military force.--
1131:
trying to "destroy" the article(!). As Graeme says, please provide sources to support your contention that what's in the infobox are in fact the "native" names for this grouping of countries. It would also contribute to the discussion if you could explain your perspective on why this material is helpful in the infobox.
1512:
United States to build a major naval port. The "neutrality" was quite meaningless, for the
Germans on the island were all arrested by the British, and the island became critical in the battle of the Atlantic. At the peak there were 52,000 Allied soldiers in Iceland, as compared to a population of 130,000.
1157:
It's fairly obvious that the name of the military alliance was the Allies in all those languages (take out some personal variations from
Roosevelt or Chruchill; not going to base this article on personalities). You yourself provided the sources above. BTW: Hitler called the United States... the North
506:
Well, I totally admit that details about legal continuation of the Third
Republic isn't really my strong point so I can't argue on that topic. Just my point was that if country continued to fight after German occupation in exile, then there is no point to mark it joining allies again because it never
1086:
At this point, this is long standing material, and the burden of proof in on the person trying to make the change. Look at the
Knowledge (XXG) edit cycle guidelines (when an editor gets reverted, you don't revert again, but bring the issue up for discussion). Also, Nice to see you in this article as
805:
the text from the infobox's native_name field which asserts that the name for the Allies in each of the major non-English speaking states was exact translation of "Allies" into the various languages. Aside from such material being of limited use to our readers (this is the
English-language Knowledge
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By contrast to Poland, the French case is somewhat controversial. France under Petain did surrender and, therefore, ceased to be an Ally. However, since not all French supported that decision, and since some leaders and some colonies decided to fight, it should be stated explicitly that Free French,
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battleship) and controlled considerable territory. It is ridiculous to include
Honduras and not to mention Free French. Again, if some criteria do not allow to list Free French among the Allies, these criteria must be changed. Alternatively, the footnote can be added that will explain that although
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The material add depth, something that the average
Australian sorely lacks. So, I guess your next suggestion will be to deconstruct the page even more, and just suggest links to other articles which detail each countries' specific contributions to WWII… no need for depth on this page right, or why
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page here. This page is devoted to a specific subject matter related to WWII and it is an appropriate place to add detail… as you and your colleagues, systematically remove detailed descriptions from WWII page arguing that a reader can go into a specific page that's devoted to topic. Now, all of a
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With regards to France, after 1940 defeat it was succeded by Vichy regime. However, not all French officials and not all parts of French colonial empire decided to recognize Vichy. Some of them decided to fight against the Axis, and they did that neither as a part of some country's colonial empire
1130:
I am actually rather happy to discuss this matter (hence why I started the thread above), but I don't fancy engaging with conspiracy theory type stuff like what you're trying to advance here (I've actually been editing this article for years, for better or for worse), or wild accusations that I'm
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Officially, Iceland was neutral. However in practice, it was a major Allied supporter. The
British invaded and took control of Iceland in 1940, and later the US replaced Britain. Iceland broke its ties with Denmark and gained self-government. The legislature voted overwhelmingly to allow the
458:
Again, that is too formal approach. The historical fact is that
Yugoslavia, France and Poland made considerable military contribution even when their territories were conquered by the Nazis. Not to reflect this fact is a direct insult of these nations, and, it would be simply incorrect. If some
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has removed the material that is being debated and has placed a Edit
Warring warning on my talk page. I'm 100% sure that until the discussion is closed you do not go in and remove the material in question. Again, the very same editors who voted to remove material form the WWII article are now
902:
article has in its Infobox names of the country in other languages, including Latin (Confoederatio Helvetica) which is not an official language in that country and does not directly mean (or translate into) Schwyz. And most of all, no reference sources. I suggest we tackle that issue as well.
473:
Poland joined on 1st september 1939, it never made peace with Germany so its joining remained in effect. It wouldn't make sense to include same country twice. French situation is different though as France actually surrendered. I don't know what exactly happened in Yugoslavia. Anyway my main
1423:
By the way where were you guys when this page was a mess not that long ago: country order (some alphabetical others ad hoc), breaks in format, poor grammar etc. At least, I can say that I added something to this page, but now the same group of editors from the WWII is migrating over just to
1215:
Quit being a nuisance, you provided the links above yourself… do you want me to find sources in the native languages as well. If you want I can get books in French or Polish to do so. But, then are you gonna argue that we can't use foreign language references in a English Knowledge (XXG)?
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page. Where each country called the military pact something different in their language. But, to argue that the names are different and the only solution to remove everything is wrong, this is an article which covers a specific WW2 topic and a high level of detail is appropriate.
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found another Infobox to take apart. Using the same tactic of starting an argument over a petty issue using some "exemption" to the rule and trying to make it the rule, then saying that the only way to fix this is to remove all detail. This is suspect because I have not seen
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Naturally, you cannot see it because after 1940 the League was virtually defunct, and no update of the member's list were being made. However, the third article's para starts with the words I quoted. (Again, although formally it supports my point I don't want to use it as an
1108:'s actions yet you yourself did not engage in this pager for a very long time. But, just like on the WW2 page the same "group" of editors seem to show up on cue and automatically support each other. You think I'm making a wild accusation, just look at the WW2 talk page. --
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Don't be too formal: of course, only three countries continued to fight after they were conquered by Nazi: Poland, France and Yugoslavia. And this fact should be reflected in the article. If these countries do not fit the article's criteria, then the criteria should be
474:
complaint with current "independent states" thing was actually the fact, that countries like Iran and Iraq, which were occupied with military invasion, and British Raj, which was essentially colony, don't really count as "independent" in proper meaning of word.--
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infoboxes as well and there it's also treated in the article lead (which is where it should be IMO). These other language descriptions can be mentioned in the lead and should be left out of the infoboxes (redundant clutter)... in all three of these articles.
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They weren't even consistently called the Allies in English. Roosevelt liked to call them the United Nations and Churchill like to call them the Grand Alliance. Ditch the foreign names, which already are looking unverifiable as consistent usage.
710:), the Free French Forces, and the Free French Committees of expatriate frenchmen who supported it all over the world. While it was not recognized by the Allies as France's government in exile, it was definitely a co-belligerent. After
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article. The article implies (see the quote) that Free French may be considered a successor of France. Again, I don't think this discussion to add much to the question we argue about. Membership in the League meant nothing during that
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Churchill recognized De Gaulle's French Government in exile as legitimate in August 1940, while the US, which only joined more than one year later, when Hitler declared war against them, preferred Vichy and sent an ambassador
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I really don't think it is in your interest to try to argue that it is acceptable to make disparaging comments about entire nationalities (or individual people based on their nationality). I strongly advise you to apologise.
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Of course Free France should be counted as an 'Ally'; it had its own government (initially located in Brazzaville in Africa) and fielded substantial forces which ultimately reported to the Free French political leadership.
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It takes two to edit war. It has been mentioned in the previous section that the names are uncited. If you feel an editor is in the wrong, the appropriate thing to bring to bear is policy and sourcing not confrontation.
806:(XXG)), I find it highly unlikely that the exact same phrase was used in each country. Going by Knowledge (XXG) article names (not a scientific measure!), it appears that France and Poland might use the same word
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American Union. So, should we take that into account when referring to the US from a German perspective??? These are stupid arguments designed to saturate the debate with exceptions to the rule, then you
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on this wiki. The Free French Forces were Free France's armed forces, but Free France was actually an umbrella term for : De Gaulle's government in exile (formally organized as such in 1941, as the
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come in and say "this is so complicated" the only reasonable solution is to take everything out all together. This strategy is fully on display in the WW2 and this is what's happening here, now --
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STOP trying to destroy the article, and pick out exemptions to the rule, because exemptions to the rule are not the RULE. In French as in English and Polish all the referred to the alliance as
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Yes, it would be great if you could provide references to the names used for the allegiance in France, Poland, China and the other countries listed. If you can't provide those references,
738:). The Provisional government was officially recognized by the Allies afterwards, but the Free French organization (under whatever official names it used) had been a co-belligerent (i.e.
205:, it does mention Free France ("Of the 42 founding members, 23 (or 24, counting Free France)"), however, for the reason explained above, it adds no additional weight to neither my nor
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Whether they agree or not, the debate is still open and that fact should be respected, and time should be allowed for additional editors to make their comments on the issue. --
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But, in any case lets not mess with the format, by coming up with an alternative place for the Iceland flag icon. We either remove the flag all together and keep it in the
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677:, as Czechoslovakia had de facto ceased to exist after being split by Germany. I agree with the statement above : if the criteria pose a problem, change the criteria.
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That "independent states" thing is nonsense and should be changed to "formally independent states". And even when I don't understand what British Raj is doing there.--
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I've removed it because there seems to be no consensus to keep it. I personally favor removal as I don't think it adds anything but unneeded clutter to the infobox.
762:. As the Allies recognized the government, that means they also recognized its laws, which means that from an allied point of view (at least since 1944), France has
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make any useful additions to this article before, yet strangely he shoots in and starts to remove things form this Infobox as well, then conveniently you come in
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in their respective language. If that was not the case in Russian then just remove the Russian text, or keep the Russian equivalent of the name, just like in the
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673:(successor to Free France) was recognized by the Allies as the legitimate government of France in 1944. Free France was not a country, but then neither was the
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Um, didn't most countries maintain governments in exile/colonies which stayed members of allies? France is only one who I remember actually making peace.--
1257:). Just for the record, this page has been on my watchlist since an edit I made in 2005; which probably shows I need to do maintenance on my watchlist.
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I can understand including the names if there was significant use of these foreign language names in English works. cf Regia Marina, Kriegsmarine.
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in which the flag of Icelend icon was placed back in the middle of the infobox (rather odd formatting method), and an explanation was made that
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Re: As I (and Nick-D) already wrote, Free French was grouped around the African colonies, they fielded considerable armed forces (including the
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but I still think this is wrong...we would have to add all the Governments in Exile now, eg. Danes etc, etc...it is going to be a mess now... --
1363:, nice to see that you also joined this debate. By the way, I'm confused a bit by your statement, what Australian race are you referring to? --
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540:. The "Free French" is not a state, but a body of individuals that elected to fight on in various military units. Note that the full name is
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You mix the term "country" with the term "state". The article tells about states, not countries. Did Polish state ceased to exist after 1939?
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Knowledge (XXG):Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Calidum is arbitrarily removing material up that being discussed on the Talk Page
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Most importantly, I forgot to add that the same decision also nullified Pétain's demand of surrender of the 17 june 1940. So, legally,
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How the heck are you gonna accuse me of edit warring when you are removing the disputed material before the debate is closed??
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Oh .o.k. but I think that membership in the Ligue of Nations is a criterium that one could go by to check the independence--
1535:. That's all fine, but in that case the Iceland flag should not be on this page especially when we have an article titled
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Should also make an effort to do the same for the other two articles I mentioned if only for the sake of consistency. –
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sudden you come into another WWII related WP page and your only objective is to remove stuff. You need to quit that. --
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just before D-Day. During the liberation, it decreed that the Republic had never legally ceased to exist, and that the
639:, it is best make a footnote against "France" in that section mentioning the capitulation of France, the succession of
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deconstruct this article, using the same tactics that were used on the WW2 page to remove detail for the article. --
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1337:"Something that the average Australian sorely lacks"?! I strongly recommend that you reconsider your tone, E-960.
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isn't met. There's also the issue of what value this material adds: could you please outline your views on this?
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Sorry, I thought that I had removed the flag completely, rather than just putting it back to where it had been.
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was not a country and should be removed. I requested a source to proove that Free France was a country. Thanks--
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Official or not, it appears that Confoederatio Helvetica is the source of the 2 letter country code ch used in
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I agree that the case is a little bit complicated, therefore I posted a message on the Free French talk page
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and overseas territories, which makes a lot of people. The National Liberation French Committee became the
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was not a country per se, but it still did contribute to Allied war effort. Moreover, the
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The League was virtually defunct by that moment (1940), so this criterion doesn't work.--
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Ok, problem fixed, the Iceland flag icon has been removed as originally intended. --
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If it's obvious, can you please provide the sources which support your position?
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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No. There is no country article titled "Free France", it is just a redirect to
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903:(sarcasm to point out the argumentative nature of this debate over Allies). --
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1539:. Is if that's the case that the flag icon should be removed all together. --
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714:, the United States favored general Henri Giraud, who set up in Algiers the
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This article is about the independent states that comprised the Allies....
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that may be considered successors of Third Republic, became a new Ally.--
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formal approach doesn't work then the criteria were chosen incorrectly.--
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flooding in to this page, and using unethical tactics to get me block.
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is removing the disputed material and the discussion is not even closed
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This article is about the independent states that comprised the Allies
635:. France is already listed as an ally in the article, in the section
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that wanted to continue the fight and the succession of De Gaulle's
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If no one agrees with you -- I don't -- then the debate is over. --
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France is considered as having never legally surrendered at all
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WP:ANI#Personal abuse and anti-Australian slurs by User:E-960
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and apparently racist remarks will not help you or anybody. —
1449:" is necessary for the infobox. I see a similar bit in the
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Allies_of_World_War_II#After_the_German_invasion_of_Poland
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Allies_of_World_War_II#After_the_German_invasion_of_Poland
264:. Can you provide the link to what you saw. Thanks Paul.--
814:. Citations are needed to support such translations IMO.
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was null and void : this decree is still in vigor today (
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138:, let's see if someone provided additional arguments.--
811:, while Russia appears to use "Anti-Hitler coalition"
348:" should be removed from the lead of the article and
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on the list of countries. Could you link it? Thanks--
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even have this page in the first place?... example:
536:France is already listed as an ally in the section
1571:article or create a separate subsection for it. --
576:In fact, the literature sees "Free French" as a
1253:Nothing wrong with foreign language sources (
728:Provisional government of the French Republic
671:Provisional Government of the French Republic
649:Provisional Government of the French Republic
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562:I agree with Martintg. Should we vote on ?--
1441:As an uninvolved editor, I don't see why "
1290:The following discussion has been closed.
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1014:Editors, there is a related discussion at
1533:"ref says Iceland was officially neutral"
311:Correct. Membership is a criterion, but
44:Do not edit the contents of this page.
1527:I'd like to discuss a revert made by
1036:Removing native names of the Alliance
972:What debate? Nobody agrees with you.
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720:National Liberation French Committee
609:(od)Re: vote. WP is not a democracy.
155:was neither a state or a country.--
1569:Neutral powers during World War II
1537:Neutral powers during World War II
708:Committee for the Empire's defense
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580:rather than a sovereign state. --
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675:Czechoslovak government-in-exile
546:Russian National Liberation Army
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1277:off-topic personal discussion
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262:, it does mention Free France
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643:in 1940 and the rise of the
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1407:I've reported the above at
948:This is a completely bias!
797:"Allies" in other languages
490:France actually surrendered
18:Talk:Allies of World War II
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1309:Cuba during World War II
1293:Please do not modify it.
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922:and related cases like
278:I meant, I checked the
256:...but you said above :
223:Paul sorry I can't see
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507:left in first place.--
42:of past discussions.
768:Jean-Jacques Georges
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736:text in french here
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1045:Edit Warring
1044:
1039:
954:
950:User:Calidum
947:
942:User:Calidum
897:
871:
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763:
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732:Vichy regime
719:
715:
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641:Vichy France
618:Paul Siebert
608:
524:Paul Siebert
494:Paul Siebert
489:
461:Paul Siebert
439:
425:
385:Paul Siebert
345:
317:Paul Siebert
312:
285:Paul Siebert
257:
244:Paul Siebert
242:argument).--
211:Paul Siebert
189:Paul Siebert
140:Paul Siebert
111:
107:
106:
78:
43:
37:
1451:Axis powers
1106:User:Nick-D
1104:supporting
1098:User:Nick-D
1093:User:Nick-D
1041:User:Nick-D
900:Switzerland
876:Axis powers
696:Free France
667:Free France
651:in 1944. --
225:Free France
209:'s point.--
153:Free France
113:Free France
36:This is an
1555:Denisarona
1382:Cliftonian
1345:Cliftonian
872:THE ALLIES
803:re-removed
801:I've just
694:Actually,
509:Staberinde
476:Staberinde
445:Staberinde
428:Staberinde
383:changed.--
95:Archive 10
927:Nil Einne
613:Richelieu
90:Archive 9
85:Archive 8
79:Archive 7
73:Archive 6
68:Archive 5
60:Archive 1
1255:WP:NOENG
740:de facto
653:Martintg
582:Martintg
578:movement
550:Martintg
175:Martintg
1514:Rjensen
1507:Iceland
1479:Calidum
1359:Hello,
1020:Diannaa
564:Jacurek
370:Jacurek
354:Jacurek
299:Jacurek
283:time.--
266:Jacurek
229:Jacurek
207:Jacurek
157:Jacurek
117:Jacurek
39:archive
1491:JBarta
1460:JBarta
1412:Nick-D
1387:(talk)
1350:(talk)
1280:NE Ent
1237:Nick-D
1194:Nick-D
1160:Nick-D
1133:Nick-D
816:Nick-D
782:there.
332:Nick-D
1592:E-960
1573:E-960
1541:E-960
1426:E-960
1365:E-960
1313:E-960
1218:E-960
1164:E-960
1110:E-960
1087:well
1054:E-960
1018:. --
1002:Yaush
988:E-960
974:Srnec
959:E-960
905:E-960
881:E-960
850:Yaush
488:Re: "
16:<
1596:talk
1577:talk
1559:talk
1545:talk
1518:talk
1495:talk
1464:talk
1453:and
1430:talk
1416:talk
1369:talk
1317:talk
1311:. --
1263:talk
1241:talk
1233:WP:V
1222:talk
1198:talk
1168:talk
1137:talk
1114:talk
1074:talk
1058:talk
1049:WWII
1024:talk
1006:talk
992:talk
978:talk
963:talk
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909:talk
885:talk
854:talk
835:talk
820:talk
788:talk
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683:talk
657:talk
622:talk
586:talk
568:talk
554:talk
548:. --
528:talk
513:talk
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389:talk
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321:talk
303:talk
289:talk
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248:talk
233:talk
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193:talk
179:talk
161:talk
144:talk
121:talk
1477:--
1447:同盟国
924:.ch
764:not
1598:)
1579:)
1561:)
1547:)
1520:)
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1458:–
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1216:--
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64:←
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1378:—
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50:.
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