1217:. There can't be "two primary topics": there can only be one, or none. The current arrangement infers the fruit is the primary topic; this proposal effectively says there is no primary topic. The problem with this proposal is that if x% of users go to "Apple" because they want the fruit, and y% go to "Apple" want the the company, then 100% of users going to "Apple" would end up at the disambiguation page, one click away from the thing they wanted, and so 0% are satisfied in one click. In the current configuration, x% of users are satisfied in one click. Obviously x is larger than zero, so the current arrangement is better than the proposal.
647:, one topic regarding the fruit and another regarding the $ 1 billion market cap technology company. In educational purpose or scholar, Apple is a fruit and should be maintained for long-term significance and educational value. But in modern/contemporary times, anyone who think the Apple are more likely think the company with more than $ 1 billion market capitalization which is one of the largest and most well-known company in the world. The company's name derived from fruit name, but because I see it at
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842:: If consensus is found to move the pages, we might consider doing this as a planned process akin to TfD. Firstly, announce the decision, then give us a few days to fix the existing links before finallly moving the pages. That might be less disruptive than waking up one morning to find that the pages have moved and two thousand wikilinks are suddenly broken.
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588:. I note with dissatisfaction that the talk page was inexplicably semi-protected, a completely absurd decision. There have been many, many discussions on Knowledge (XXG) before with sockpuppets, and we were able to survive. Talk pages should never be locked during a debate. (It's especially ridiculous in an RM discussion, which is so explicitly
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Why is that better? At best we (the editors) are forcing some significant percentage of readers to load a large page that is irrelevant to what they were searching for (vs a relatively lightweight disambiguation page). And even worse, mistaken links to the "wrong" primary topic are less likely to be
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Yes regarding the academic purpose and primary long-term significance. But in modern times, the primary topic of apple is not clear and tends to be complicated. "Google search" when typing "Apple" are more likely see about a $ 1 billion market cap company than the fruit. The fruit only more notable
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Well, with very few exceptions, incorrect links to primary topics do not get fixed, and incorrect links are an issue for readers, not just editors. And on
Shhhnotsoloud's point, that's really addressed against the current guideline on primary topics, isn't it? Essentially it's saying that dab pages
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Most of the opposition here seems to be conflating PRIMARYTOPIC with either âmost importantâ or âwhat I think of firstâ with little to no consideration for what users searching with âappleâ are likely to be seeking. And to deny the historical significance of this remarkable business and its
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was the article about the state (one of two possible primary topics, but the one with fewer views, similar to apple vs Apple Inc), about 41 people per day went on to the dab page. But today more than 10 times as many people wind up on the dab page because it usurped the base name.
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transformational products as covered in reliable sources, is mind boggling. Sure the fruit has historical significance too, from the forbidden fruit to Johnny
Appleseed, but that supports a dab page, not PRIMARYTOPIC. When this RM is proposed again someone please ping me. â-
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since although there are a few things called "Apples" on the DAB page and the company's products are sometimes called "Apples" that doesn't seem to be that common and when I Google Apples most of the results are for the fruit even though the company't products are there.
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is an example where the most common uses are placed at the top of an otherwise ordinary disambiguation page. That is not primary topic disambiguation. On this page, the apple corporation is already at the top of the list after the primary topic.
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As to
Station1's point about some thinking the fruit is primary and some thinking the company is, that provides pretty strong evidence that there isn't a primary topic! Primary topics should normally be straightforward and obvious like
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If there are multiple topics (even just two) to which a given title might refer, but per the criteria at Is there a primary topic? there is no primary topic, then the base name should lead the reader to the disambiguation page for the
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That's not partial disambiguation. Since the set of things ambiguous with "The Apples" (i.e., that users my seek by typing "The Apples" into the search box), leaving them separate seems appropriate and best for the readers. --
1430:) for an example where users asserted multiple topics should be primary (the organ, the card game, the suit and even the football club) which realistically provided strong evidence that there is no clear primary topic.
792:, four times more incoming links, and dominates search results. The fruit has obviously been around longer and "feels more encyclopaedic" but, after forty years in business, we must reluctantly conclude that
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I'm not saying dab pages should never occupy a primary title; I'm saying that where there is a choice of two topics for a primary topic, it's better for readers for us to choose one than to choose neither.
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to find the fruit at the base name then readers will be too. We can cope with the one-off task of changing existing links. Moving from the established titles would be a courageous move but a correct one.
1691:. Can't see immediate relation to the recently bulk-blocked Indonesia IP-farm on the Bangalore and Ford RMs. And despite the interest in Korean girl singers, isn't the same vote made by Kauffner in 2012.
2008:? Google results do mainly return the fruit though there are a few results for the company. I'd say that the fruit is clearly primary for the plural by long-term significance and possibly also by usage.
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because there is a presence of the company which also claimed as primary topic in contemporary times while the fruit with the same name as the company derived from is essentially a primary topic for
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for orange(s) that failed I don't think IAR or NOTBURO likely applies here and I doubt that this argument would succeed but given that that was back in 2015 we might be able to reconsider on that.
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This article doesn't discuss about moving the company title (Apple Inc.) into base name (Apple). The company was not affected by this RM and will maintain the current title as this official name.
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is not even an example of primary topic disambiguation, which only applies where the page includes "(disambiguation)" in the title -- indicating that the primary topic is at the base name.
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You would need to discuss this on a wider level as the fruit is obviously the primary usage for the term. If you think a move is in order then set up a discussion and file a request at
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I didnât participate in the RM or move review but just want to say that the nom was off by a factor of 2000 when they referred to the corporation capitalized at one billion. Itâs two
1877:. Nobody should close this RM right now as this RM was proposed by an anonymous user and this talk page has been protected till 18:29, 29 September 2020. Also, the nom has been
1786:, Steve Jobs stated he was inspired by the fruit when establishing his company in 1976 (only about 44 years ago, compared to centuries of human experience with the fruit).
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You do realise that apples the fruit haven't gone away anywhere, and people are still using them in farming and as food regularly? Not the whole world is the IT industry.
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the primary topic, that would be different discussion, but there's rarely a good reason to put a dab page at a base name when a primary topic is reasonably possible.
1308:, but most people say there is one. And if one's first choice can't be at the base name, it's better for readers that the second-best choice be at the base name.
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Why did you close the RM? This RM was proposed by an anonymous user and this talk page has been protected till 18:29, 29 September 2020. Also, the nom has been
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given that the company as noted is well known and important to and there are several other uses on the DAB page, no clear primary topic for the singular. Keep
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There can't be two primary topics, but the disambiguation page can emphasise two topics where 99% of readers are likely to want one or the other, as in
2004:? do you think that even though there are a few obscure uses and the company's products can be pluralized that the fruit is primary for the plural per
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592:.) Anyway, even a casual reading of the arguments here shows that the fruit is still widely considered to be far more significant than any other use.
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moving the company to the base name per the above about incoming external links and the long-term significance of the fruit. Also
Britannica uses "
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For precisely the reasons
Shhhnotsoloud articulated at this bullet. Detecting mistaken links may be easier for editors, but doesn't help readers.
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as a textbook example of a plural being (relatively) unambiguous even if the singular leads to a DAB page. Given also that there was also a
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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1753:. The fruit is just too universal and has too much long-term significance to be trumped by the company, however famous that may be. --
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I think the nonexistent article should be last. However, Apple
Computer should be first (after the fruit). I'm even in favor of putting
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I wasn't giving a lecture I was just pointing out that neither of you're points are likely to be that convincing. As I noted
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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667:(when searching "Kiwi" it is more likely refer as the fruit). The dab page should be repaired to have two primary topics.
2037:, the plural of which is the primary topic for the term "oranges". Similar treatment for apples would seem appropriate.
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has become the secondary definition of Apple, and people are more likely to search for Apple Inc. instead of the fruit.
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at the base name, just do that. Moving the disambiguation page there doesnât help anybody. I would also suggest moving
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But in this case we have 2 topics that are different enough (unlike New York that could possibly use DABCONCEPT) and
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long-term significance based on the fact that every major entry on the disambiguation is named for the fruit.
659:. The Google search also refers word "Apple" as primarily the company, not the fruit, which is similar to how
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Yes, anyone searching with "apples" is almost certainly looking for the fruit. The fruit is the PLURALPT. --
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Ever time I search apple it come up with the fruit so can some make the disambiguation as the search page.
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sorry, it's going to be a hard sell to convince me the fruit is no longer the one and only primary topic.
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My speculations now as irrelevant - striking comment from IP nom as has now been blocked by admin anyway.
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which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. â
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on
Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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I didn't protect the page. I'm just noting that the proposer can't respond to points raised below.
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AGFÂ : brand new IP editor straight into major page move and familiarity with RM related guidelines
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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How are uncorrected bad links good for readers? That is not even primarily beneficial to editors.
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I agree with your suggestion. There are more than two thousands wikilinks that needs to be fixed.
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In fact, apples have been around for millions of years, Apple.inc for less than half a century.
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This talk page is now semi-protected; IP editors can no longer contribute to this discussion.
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than the company in primary sources like Books, but not in secondary source like websites.
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for 1 month. So, I believe that discussions shouldn't be closed while the nom is blocked.
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it seems sensible to have two primary topics here, the fruit and the computer company. --
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1572:. The fruit is clearly the primary topic. The company was even named after the fruit.
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There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at
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into a dab page would benefit practically no one. If there were a proposal to make
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https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Apple_Inc./Archive_10#Requested_move_24_October_2019
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Obviously, uncorrected bad links are not good for readers. But a quick glance at
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should be moved after APPLE (the satelite) due to alphabetizing? or perhaps
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If the move occurs, we should review redirects to Apple. Most, such as
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doesn't reveal any, so that doesn't seem to be a problem in this case.
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due to its greater importance over a non existant article (APPLE)? -
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the primary topic of apple is apple. Even to iPhone and Mac users.
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have you worked out who the
Indonesia IP is yet? I can't find on
1943:- that alone would be sufficient reason to close the RM, as per
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is a perfect example of why this page should not be moved. When
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should also be merged here. That's just partial disambiguation.
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I donât need a lecture. And I shouldnât need to remind you of
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No if there isn't a primary topic we don't randomly pick one (
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talk) at 01:08, 25 February 2012|Talk:Apple - Requested move
1554:. Watchers of that active page may be able to assist us.
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on 21 September 2020. The result of the move review was
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detected as they are not included in the DAB reports.
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Talk:Apple#Old cut-and-paste moves affecting this page
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long-term significance of the fruit, as described on
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1300:But there is a primary topic. Some people say it's
1213:as nominated. This proposal doesn't involve moving
1483:Some things should never be allowed to change. --
920:To give a note, "apples" is plural name of apple.
1736:edible apple is the primary topic, Apple is not.
473:and not in this talk page section. Thank you. â
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1972:. Thatâs double the entire US fruit industry.
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1523:and the top of
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1473:WP:PRIMARYTOPIC
1440:
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1160:Malus domestica
1158:
1130:works well for
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1066:Leaning support
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1009:redirecting to
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1966:
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1910:Requested move
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2015:
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2012:Crouch, Swale
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1711:In ictu oculi
1708:
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1697:In ictu oculi
1694:
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1401:Shhhnotsoloud
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1273:WP:NOPRIMARY
1210:
1183:â Preceding
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1015:move request
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936:WP:NOPRIMARY
898:
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839:
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758:Neel.arunabh
717:Many thanks
656:
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259:Organization
229:
171:
94:project page
77:
40:WikiProjects
29:
2006:WP:PLURALPT
1424:Talk:Hearts
1132:Orange S.A.
1074:WP:PLURALPT
1005:(PT) gives
822:Per above.
661:Kiwi (bird)
590:WP:NOTAVOTE
577:move review
449:Eraserhead1
413:Eraserhead1
245:its history
2104:Categories
2075:Talk:Apple
1992:Born2cycle
1941:sockpuppet
1755:Necrothesp
1533:Apple Inc.
1517:Apple Inc.
1500:Rreagan007
1215:Apple Inc.
1166:Apple peel
1126:Yes, that
1083:Apple Inc.
980:WP:NOTBURO
954:is a DAB.
883:Apple Inc.
824:Apple Inc.
798:10YEARTEST
794:Apple Inc.
786:Apple Inc.
497:The Apples
485:The Apples
299:HereToHelp
277:mysekurity
234:page were
98:discussion
1915:Red Slash
1772:centuries
1485:Netoholic
1306:Apple Inc
1003:WP:PLURAL
940:WP:PLURAL
802:SURPRISEd
665:Kiwifruit
586:Not moved
493:The Apple
231:The Apple
2079:RMCD bot
1970:trillion
1862:Station1
1839:contribs
1537:Station1
1386:Station1
1338:Station1
1310:Station1
1259:Station1
1254:New York
1250:New York
1233:New York
1197:contribs
1185:unsigned
820:Support:
517:JHunterJ
491:Same as
2030:Oranges
1945:WP:DENY
1919:blocked
1879:blocked
1875:Comment
1850:Comment
1828:davidwr
1788:Zzyzx11
1594:Support
1007:Oranges
999:Calidum
988:Calidum
944:Oranges
916:Calidum
899:Calidum
782:Support
487:to here
389:Keith D
2039:Certes
1998:Apples
1950:Joseph
1824:Oppose
1768:Oppose
1751:Oppose
1734:Oppose
1615:Oppose
1570:Oppose
1557:Certes
1513:Oppose
1496:Oppose
1469:Oppose
1420:Hearts
1418:. See
1237:Certes
1211:Oppose
1189:Certes
1143:Certes
1070:Apples
976:WP:IAR
952:Orange
891:apples
879:Oppose
844:Certes
807:Certes
739:Certes
721:Certes
703:Certes
483:merge
475:RM bot
344:Graham
236:merged
191:Plants
182:botany
178:plants
137:Plants
36:scale.
1960:talk)
1858:Apple
1854:apple
1738:Mikus
1529:apple
1521:apple
1422:(and
1416:Paris
1356:wiser
1352:older
1329:wiser
1325:older
1302:apple
1278:term.
1275:says
1172:Aplle
1110:Note:
1046:Slash
887:apple
830:Goose
790:Apple
632:Apple
627:Apple
608:Slash
455:: -->
440:wiser
436:older
419:: -->
385:WP:RM
238:into
28:This
2092:talk
2043:talk
2019:talk
1955:2302
1927:talk
1887:talk
1866:talk
1835:talk
1814:Talk
1792:talk
1778:and
1759:talk
1742:talk
1715:talk
1701:talk
1673:Talk
1650:talk
1623:talk
1606:talk
1596:per
1586:Talk
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1541:talk
1504:talk
1471:per
1441:talk
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1193:talk
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1147:talk
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978:and
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