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to get the reader to where they need to go. If there were many articles about different colors that were all named "azure" - then we would need to provide more information in the dab page to help them do that. But even in that case, I kinda doubt that giving the HSV values for it would help more than a teeny-tiny fraction of our readership. However, this isn't a problem. There are only two articles that talk about this term as a "color" - and one of those is clearly about special nomenclature in heraldry. If I'm interested in some shade of blue called "azure" then the description for this article in the dab page (
1078:: it's mystifying to a non-expert that an article on one shade of "blue", with an entry in the "Shades of blue" navbox, itself includes mentions and samples etc of so many other "shades of blue" (Cerulean, Brandeis, Air Force, ....) as well as some bizarre unsourced statements ("French blue is a deep azure color commonly used in quality men's dress shirts.") There certainly looks to be room for a rewrite. Good luck. (I did my bit for Azure by creating the stub
1517:, not to a disambig page that lists such things as titles of songs or magazines, cities in Canada, or types of barley. "Orange", for example, is different: there is the color and the fruit, and both are obvious and different (if related) meanings. Not so with "azure", which to most readers means the color first and foremost. In this case, it seems to make the most sense to make the search term "azure" point to an article about the
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article includes an HSV formula for colors, but that doesn't make those colors owned by the HSV concept to exclusion. Please note that this point was already addressed in response to the editor's post at 19:44, 27 April, and deafly raising the same objection yet again seems argumentative. Please also note that other points raised in response to that post, such as what material is appropriate for a dab page per
1662:, which may be of azure color. By the way, the article structure must be improved. Two things: Section "Etimology" mixes all things non-computer and must be split (however small it is) for clarity. On the other hand, all things RGB at the first sight look like OR to me: e.g., who said that azure is of hue code between 195 and 225? who says that "United Nations blue" is (a shade of) azure? And so on.
907:, which opens by discussing variability of meaning, displaying variation, and identifying significance and common objects of the color, and which uses multiple definitions in the article. This article does not do this; only a single definition is given, and no variability is described. Rather, the HSV definition is given, and a series of related HSV colors are provided. --
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Tough call or not, it is a storm in a teacup. Either way no kingdoms will fall. Many finer points have been raised, not all important and not all unanimous. And not all relevant. For example, the proposed improvements to the article would be desirable whether the article were made independent or not.
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The dab page isn't supposed to contain any more information than is required to allow readers to understand which of several articles is the one they want to read. We don't want dab pages to grow longer and longer descriptions for each option - so we prune those descriptions to the minimum necessary
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I think we need to bear in mind that many people searching for "azure" are simply looking for basic information on the broad concept of the color: probably examples, and perhaps some variations. Maybe they saw "azure" listed as a color option for a garment or colored pencil or something, and want to
1843:
It's a tough call, honestly. As as Kvng and PizzaMan have pointed out, the article for
Microsoft's Azure is currently getting substantially more hits than the article on the colour. On the other hand, it's fairly self-evident that the topic which receives the most coverage in sources and which has
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region of
Turkestan. Although a mineralogist, gemologist or geologist would have to confirm this, in general a mineral lode from a discrete region has a unique signature, i.e. a quite uniform and often definitive profile of impurities and conditions under which it was created and altered over time,
1043:
Your agreement that the article needs to be rewritten looks like a solid bilateral agreement. Can we agree on specific points that ought to be included in the article that are missing, and perhaps begin hunting down such information and sources that are needed, and restructure the existing article
545:
It can easily be seen that more than 90% of the article deals with the HSV definition by the accumulation of computer-defined variations. The additional mentions of other senses of "azure" in the etymology and "Definition" sections really belong on the disambiguation page, which is newly created.
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Furthermore, the whole "HSV color" line of reasoning raised in objection is moot because even if the article had only the one color wheel concept that's at the top of the article to instantiate azure, many readers are not technically acquainted with the topic they are searching for on WP, and such
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Re the latest statements, I believe they misrepresent the article in important ways. For example, from immediately above and just above that (posted 03:15), the article is characterized as "almost entirely about HSV definitions" and having a "series of related HSV colors". In point of fact, the
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I see no need for the abbreviation HSV to disambiguate azure. As I understand HSV, every possible color is included in it, so if it is appropriate to put it here, it would be appropriate for every color name in
Knowledge (XXG). Also there are many other color identifying systems. Why would HSV be
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No, "color" is not enough of a disambiguating descriptor, since the heraldic sense is also termed a "colour" (as opposed to a "metal") in the jargon of heraldy. MOS:DAB applies here, and is the reason that "HSV" is necessary, as it is the primary disambiguating term between the heraldic and HSV
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And that's why we need the "HSV" in here; the article is about the HSV definition, and not about all the possible meanings that previously existed. If you believe otherwise, then the article will need to be completely rewritten to reflect that, and the list of HSV "variations" will need to be
1512:
I realize there was some discussion about this a few years ago on this very same talk page, but am concerned that the solution arrived at was suboptimal. I believe rather firmly that anyone typing the word "azure" into a search box is expecting to get taken (directly) to an article about the
1826:. Same argument as Kvng. Knowledge (XXG) should be more "customer centric" and just serve the info that the majority of people come looking for. The fact that Microsoft Azure is at the bottom of the disambiguation page says that this corner of WP had been all but customer friendly.
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mess. This doesn't really speak to the basic organizational principles that have to be used to ultimately decide this redirect discussion, of course, but it's hard to recommend a redirect with the bulk of the article host to a non-encyclopedic and poorly formatted digression into
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articles on azure color. MOS:DABENTRY does not say what you imply it does; it points out that in many cases, further disambiguation is not necessary beyond the title, but that necessarily means (and the examples show) that further disambiguation can be necessary in other cases.
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Yes, the point of a dab page is to facilitate people finding the topic they are seeking. That is why HSV should be in the descriptor, since it identifies the topic of the article, and distinguishes it from other possible topics that might be covered on a page entitled "azure".
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These arguments seems like pettifoggery. Re the other colors described in the article, just having an HSV formula doesn't make a color "HSV" to exclusion. The information such as etymology that you refer to as appropriate for a dab page is completely inconsistent with
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as a color: (a) the computer designated color (and associated general references), and (b) the historical heraldic color. People who come expecting to find the heraldic color covered would wonder why an article about the "color" does not include the heraldic tincture.
239:"HSV" is jargon, and an abbreviation of jargon moreover, which only makes it more impenetrable. It would need explanation even in an article proper, and doesn't have a place on a dab page, where all we really need for a description is the bare minimum, per
498:
The article actually covers azure in HSV (and RGB), X11, historical, mineral-inspired, and foreign language senses, as well as listing related tones that people also call blues, like
Brandeis blue. Again, what more accessible language, suitable for a
550:, as that is the logical place for that content, but someone moved it back here, even though there is no obvious connection with "Azure"; presumably there is some highly technical reason for this that has yet to be explained in the article? --
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is, unfortunately, just distracting. By contrast, people searching specifically for "azure" in the heraldic sense will be looking for indications of that meaning in the dab entry. And they'll quickly find it. Failing that, if they look at
247:: "the description associated with a link should be kept to a minimum, just sufficient to allow the reader to find the correct link. In many cases, the title of the article alone will be sufficient and no additional description is necessary."
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would be my choice. It is clearer and less distracting than saying "hue". And, as noted above, "HSV" is jargon--it's unnecessary for those who know what it means, confusing to those who don't, and reeks of POV-pushing, in violation of
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is nothing more than an over-glorified disambiguation page with an etymology section and infoboxes. That is, it is simply a list of topics and other articles that have "Azure" in the name. It is not itself an article. The contents of
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Even more than that, the purported "HSV definition" of the color is described in the infobox as "Azure (color wheel)", not "Azure (HSV)". And what about other descriptors for this particular concept, like HSL (the primary term at
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as it was often used prior to public concern about environmental issues. Expressions such as "Off in the ozone", "Take in the seaside ozone" were popularly meant to signify fresh air, fresh breezes and by inference, fresh, clean
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Old French azur, derived from Arabic لازوَرْد (lāzaward, “lapis lazuli”), dropping the l as if it were equivalent to the French article l'. The Arabic is from
Persian لاجورد (lajward, “azure”), from the region of Lajward in
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and no other hue between blue and red? In fact, many cultures (like
Russian) treat azure as a separate color rather than as a type of blue. It's hardly a misnomer to use it to describe the color of a typical sky.
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but I don't believe the exclusion of "HSV" will cause anyone to choose the wrong one. Remember, even if they do go to the wrong article, it will only take seconds to realise and find the correct article.
322:. It's also patently hypocritical in this case, if that matters. Please also observe that I haven't once reverted, but rather have made an effort to find a compromise of edits, as reflected by the
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plus a mention in the disambiguation are quite enough without descending to spamming. Another year or two down the line those names might be forgotten anyway, and then it is another change. KISS.
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as I indicated. However, I don't think that it's realistic (or necessary) to predicate a conclusion here (about jargon on a dab page) upon a specific eventuality for that article, given both the
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I'm sorry, but this all seems extremely trivial. It may have been explained before, but Azure, as far as I can tell is a shade of blue, thus, making it a colour. Where is the confusion exactly?
1326:
I think you're reaching a bit. Lots of color names have, over the years, come to signify a much wider range of colors than their namesakes would imply. Or do you think that "purple" is only
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No research is needed, as there are no useful color models in which similar colors are non-adjacent. Azure is simply a color between blue and cyan, regardless of the color model being used.
353:, they'll see the hatnote, and failing that, they'll soon find the heraldic sense described and linked in the body. I think that angle is pretty well covered. What we need is some balance.
318:
I am concerned about what works well for readers, and also what works well as a process for mutual editing on WP. For example, belittling another editor's position is a violation of
971:) or RGB? There's no logic in insisting that "HSV" somehow brings superior exactness in description, even setting aside how inappropriate such technical language is for a dab entry.
777:"HSV" is jargon and is unhelpful for disambiguation. The term azure as a color description existed long before anyone attempted to define it in terms of HSV or any other scale.
181:. The point of a dab page is to facilitate people finding the topic they are seeking. Most people are not familiar with "HSV", so it is distracting and contrary to that goal.
456:
article is not about generic "azure", and we don't have an article on the
English Knowledge (XXG) concerning the generic meaning. you have to go to Wiktionary for that. The
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I don't understand why you are so strongly opposed to the extra three letters, or how you can be concerned about a pattern of edits in which you are an equal participant. --
243:, which directs against anything more than what's necessary for distinguishing. Arguably, we don't even need anything beyond the disambiguator in the name, "(color)", per
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I don't see any other article in the disambig coming close to the status of primary topic. The heraldry topic can either be integrated into this article or hatnoted.
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Regardless why people end up at this particular page, one thing is glaringly missing as far as pointing readers to knowledge. (We're foremost about learning, right?)
408:" or something along those lines, everyone would understand it. Writing "HSV" would be confusing and doesn't help anyone more. I see the need to distinguish it from
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I believe it would be correct and informative for
Knowledge (XXG) to go so far as to state that many synonyms for this color are misleading and actually misnomers.
1378:. This section has a very long heading, BTW. But the general info on source and ambiguity seem fitting for article on the color, or at least the Talk page there.
1228:
wrote: "it's mystifying to a non-expert that an article on one shade of "blue"...itself includes mentions and samples etc of so many other "shades of blue"..."
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the HSV values) makes it perfectly clear that this is the correct article to look at. That's enough - so we don't want to add more because it's a dab page.
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such as "HSV" on a dab page. Please note that this point about non-technical readership, too, has already been raised and ignored by the objecting editor.
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As a point of interest, I suspect that the usage of azure to signify various shades of sky blue, e.g. cerulean, likely stem from confusion with the word
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The disambiguation function would be necessary anyway, and one of the topics would necessarily deal with colour. So my call is: make the article either
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The above exchange seems to get far off-topic from the original RfC. Let's try to focus on the question being laid before RfC respondents - which is "
1957:
1865:, but I for one am in now rush to put it there until the article itself has received significant revision to bring it in line with quality standards.
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Including the mention of HSV is confusing and unnecessary jargon. Being overly specific and technical makes it seem as though the linked article is
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removed. However, other editors insist that the HSV material belongs here, and that makes the article almost entirely about HSV definitions. --
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Anyone who has witnessed a cloudless, daytime sky from a
Manhattan sidewalk, from mid-ocean and from an elevation above 10,000 feet knows that
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1911:, tidy up the text and the links, and forget about it. The number of hits on different topics in this case is not a knock-down argument;
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We don't add HSV values for other colors in their dab pages - I see no reason why azure should be any different. (Check, for example
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is merely a specific application of color, and could easily be discussed in all its intricacy in the same article. Please discuss at
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know what that will look like. They aren't even aware of a heraldic sense, let alone "colours" versus "metals", and that sort of
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the broadest encyclopedic relevance as a topic is the colour. Complicating this further is the fact that the second half of
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territory, courtesy of original research. I think this is probably the article that will end up inhabiting the namespace
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No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the debate may be found at the bottom of the discussion.
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1155:", rather it was a tempered observation on the path of discussion, relevant to all involved and important to progress.
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nature of WP and the difficulty demonstrated here in agreeing on even a sentence fragment, let alone an entire article.
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entry. If anything, I think "hue" may be a bit technical for many readers, who only think of '"azure"' as a "color".
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20:06, 2 February 2015 (UTC)* The color is clearly the primary topic. I'm surprised this even requires a discussion.
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Should the disambiguation page entry for azure (color) read "azure (color), a hue of blue"? Should it include "HSV"?'
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people looking for information on the color azure in general (as opposed to the heraldic sense) are not served by
1278:. Taken literally, the name signifies not only a particular mineral composition, but its provenance as being the
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Should the namespace "azure" be changed from a disambiguation page to an article specifically about the color?
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Without doing additional research, I would not know, but neither would I know that in those systems it
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the article that best describes the color in the general, straightforward sense, when it clearly is.
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Please stick to the topic at hand, and do not open a reply with personal attacks. Discussion about
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Azure: The Word's Very
Etymology Specifies a Precise Color & Clears Up Much of the Babble Above
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as it is the primary topic for this term per Gamaliel. The herald tincture info can be hatnoted.
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designates a definite color which even has its own natural reference standard for comparison.
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It's cited in various references as signifying a color anywhere from cerulean to ultramarine.
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But not all color articles on Knowledge (XXG) are about HSV colors. Compare the article on
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By the way, I don't believe that my previous opening was a personal attack, noting that "
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article is about the HSV definition sense, and not about some generic sense of "blue". --
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read "azure (color), a hue of blue"? Should it include "HSV"? 00:17, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
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rather than a disambig page consisting of widely separated topics. Other's thoughts?
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I strongly suggest a link be added to the list for those who want to learn what color
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used here to the exclusion of others. Hue or simply color would work fine. Thank you.
147:
There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at
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There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at
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a shade of blue under HSV. It is a separate one halfway betwen blue and cyan. The
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as a color description is commonly misused in English and so has become ambiguous.
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should probably be rewritten, or really just rearranged, to a format more like
840:. I recommend making a similar change to the disambiguation note at the top of
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RfC: Returning "Azure" to the primary topic rather than a disambiguation page?
404:
I had never heard of "HSV" before looking it up just then. If you just wrote "
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has an advantage as a color descriptive buried in the very word's etymology.
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discussion of a user's conduct or history is not in itself a personal attack
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It's highly imprecise, since there are multiple means of defining colors. --
609:, so why you characterize it as newly created is curious, to be generous.
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1802:. According to page view statistics, readers are more interested in
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accordingly? If the article can indeed be redone to look more like
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is clearer in its meaning which is the purpose of disambiguation. --
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Another ambiguous color example (and this one intrinsically so) is
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I am concerned that the editor's objections fit into a pattern of
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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should either be turned into an article, or else transferred to
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Is there other, more accessible wording that we could agree on?
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It's actually already there, in the template on the right, per
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As far as "Brandeis blue", etc., I had moved that content to
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While there is consensus that the colour azure would be the
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I have removed "HSV" from the description for the entry
1428:). Uniformity within the encyclopedia is a good thing.
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and generally mopping up incoming links a while back.)
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pages on Knowledge (XXG). If you wish to help, you can
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No further edits should be made to this discussion.
1485:, for various reasons below. So due to that and per
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The following discussion is an archived record of a
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1026:can happen on my talk page, where you have posted.
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But the whole point of the article is that azure is
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601:. And this dab page existed since well before you
151:and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —
133:and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —
44:This disambiguation page is within the scope of
1477:, there is no consensus on whether the page at
226:, which is not helpful in the short term, and
1751:. While I agree that an article on the color
8:
1489:, the result is apparently the status quo -
1283:all of which affect a gemstone's exact hue.
503:, do you propose to distinguish the entry?
50:, an attempt to structure and organize all
1903:and accordingly the disambiguation either
980:I do agree with the objecting editor that
714:And in any of those definitions, is azure
370:I propose "a hue of blue" to describe the
99:I don't think it's useful to disambiguate
74:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Disambiguation
15:
165:Should the disambiguation page entry for
60:attached to this talk page, or visit the
1785:. The color should be the main topic. --
1595:That can be dealt with using a hatnote.
1352:technically and unambiguously refers to.
1250:varies dramatically from place to place.
17:
1074:To follow up on the idea of rewriting
149:Talk:Azure (heraldry) - Requested move
1658:. In heraldry it is not color, it is
7:
1734:. The colour is the primary topic.
1030:page is for discussing the article.
326:. And I initiated discussion here.
320:Knowledge (XXG):No personal attacks
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77:Template:WikiProject Disambiguation
1048:, then my objections disappear. --
14:
1550:Talk:Azure (color)#Requested move
1231:The error in Pam's logic is that
659:, a hue between blue and cyan"?
215:I am concerned by the pattern of
1958:WikiProject Disambiguation pages
1810:so the color is not clearly the
607:creation of the heraldic article
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1292:http://en.wiktionary.org/azure/
1572:The problem is that there are
1357:http://en.wiktionary.org/azure
406:Azure (color), a shade of blue
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1290:I cite here Wiktionary. (See
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1202:Color Squabbles and Solution
143:Move discussion in progress
131:Talk:Azure - Requested move
125:Move discussion in progress
120:19:39, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
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1376:MOS:DAB Wiktionary linking
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47:WikiProject Disambiguation
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943:, have also been ignored.
731:between blue and cyan. --
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138:23:00, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
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1939:Please do not modify it.
1464:Please do not modify it.
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1206:Three paragraphs above,
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718:between blue and cyan?
655:What's wrong with just "
1715:Color is primary topic.
1696:. Azure (color) is the
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1165:17:24, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
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1080:Azure (design magazine)
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80:Disambiguation articles
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