1082:: Shalizi claims that adding bound information (or rather, subtracting it off) reduces the scheme to vacuity. Frieden pulls these terms from out of, to put it politely, the air, and they seem to have no independent significance whatsoever. They are simply whatever he needs to get the equation he wants at the end of the variational problem, subject only to the (really rather mild) constraint that they have the right symmetry properties. Frieden's scheme is at best mathematically equivalent to orthodoxy; it adds nothing empirical; places fundamental and useful concepts in doubt; does nothing to unify physics either internally or with statistics; and it is associated with some really bad metaphysics, though that last perhaps reflects more on Frieden than on the scheme itself. I see absolutely no reason to prefer this scheme to conventional mechanics, rather the reverse. This is at best an extended mathematical curiosity.
1068:: Shalizi claims that Frieden evidently believes that Nature thinks in Cartesian coordinates. He tries to justify his "extremal physical information principle" (pp. 79--82) by saying that physicists are in a non-cooperative game with Nature, trying to seize as much data as we can from Her, and the upshot of this is that physical information should have stationary variation. I couldn't say why he thinks this should convince anyone not raised on the lumpenfeminist idea that modern science is a way of raping and torturing Nature.
1013:: Frieden did not originate the statement âmeasuring the position of a particle does not send it into an eigenstate of energy.â It originated in the work of the esteemed John A. Wheeler. He believed in, and championed, a participatory universe, whereby each physical effect follows from the way a user carries through on it with a particular choice of observing apparatus. Indeed, even when the apparatus is changed during the experiment (a so-called âdelayed choiceâ experiment) the output changes accordingly.
1028:: Shalizi claims that Frieden does not really maximize Fisher Information; he simply requires that its variation be stationary. Worse yet, says Shalizi, he is admirably candid about the fact that simply doing this doesn't give us any very interesting equation of motion. To get that, he subtracts from the Fisher information a new quantity of his own devising, the "bound information," and requires that the difference between these two, which he calls the "physical information," have stationary variation.
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1062:: Unlike a Lagrangian, Fisher Information is generally not invariant under change of coordinates, e.g. from Cartesian to spherical, so Shalizi would have liked some reassurance on this point, which is not forthcoming. As the book makes clear, there are no âcorrectâ physical variables, until you first define what you mean by âinformation.â Itâs not C.E. Shannonâs form, but rather the continuous generalization due to Fisher.
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1086:: The reason is, as shown throughout the book - from one physical scenario to another - Nature simply acts that way (also, see Wheelerâs previously noted hypothesis). For example, in biology: Darwinian ânatural selectionâ, i.e., âsurvival of the fittest,â can be derived on the basis of the principle of Fisher Information
1072:: The inference is wrong. Observers do not want to seize a maximum amount of data but, rather, a maximum amount of information in the data taken. Itâs not quantity - itâs quality that matters. As a matter of fact, Nature itself operates by this principle: ânatural selectionâ (Darwin) is selection for maximum information
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Fisherâs foundation work using his âFisher
Information.â Fisherâs biological work, in the UK, was, in fact, going on during the same years (circa 1922-25) that early quantum mechanics was being developed just across the channel in Denmark, Germany and France. Too bad Schrodinger was not aware of this.
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As to
Shaliziâs other remarks, âplacing fundamental and useful concepts in doubtâ is the purpose of any worthwhile new theory; e.g., Galileoâs assertion of having observed a non-centrist universe. Was he wrong: in fact, and in trying to make it known? Shalizi just doesnât âlikeâ the idea behind the
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are informations that, only outwardly, look like the familiar energies of mechanics; and that these associations were made merely to motivate a person with a standard physics background to think in a different direction on this fundamental level. Our thesis is that the laws of physics arise out of
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For the record: subsequent to my protest, B. Roy
Frieden created a user account as noted above. I have exchanged some polite emails with him and he feels that his second book (which I plan to examine) overcomes objections raised by myself and other critiques regarding his first book. We have more
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I have moved the "Counter
Criticism" section from the main page to below, as its style is not particularly neutral and rather confrontational. Some of these points may be worthwhile to reintroduce into the article (preferably not by B. Roy Frieden) if they are rewritten and appropriately sourced.
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equals the kinetic energy in this criticism: a wrong and baseless claim, except in quantum mechanics. To explain further, EPI is formulated through aims and operations that center on demonstrating, algebraically and philosophically, that the central, elementary laws of physics arise out of Fisher
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as above. Schroedinger himself was ever-mystified as to where the Fisher
Information (called âkinetic energyâ in standard introductory physics) came from in his now-standard Lagrangian-based approach. Schrodinger never resolved this issue; but had he been a biologist he might have heard of R.A.
1009:: Streater claims that âFrieden claims that the position of a particle does not send it into an eigenstate of energy. As it is, his result is hardly new, being the basis of the Rayleigh-Ritz method of finding the eigenvalues, known since the nineteenth century.â
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Keep: I don't understand mathematics beyond division, so I haven't a clue about whether the article is accurate, but the problem here seems to be in the article's name. B. Roy
Frieden turns up a lot of hits. B.R. Frieden virtually none. Further, the
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Keep. Frieden's "Extreme
Physical Information" theory has gotten a certain amount of press. From skimming some websites and newsgroups, it seems to be considered interesting and not crankery. See for example this skeptical book review
1118:) who explains that there are three paradigms that reflect on reality, the chemical/physical paradigm, the information paradigm, and the meaning paradigm, and where information can be an intermediary between the other two.
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Shalizi has a more extended claims against EPI, though curiously he notes at the end of his commentary that it may not have peer support. It might be seen why this could be the case when considering some of his claims.
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287:. The article as it stands is a promo piece, certainly written by Frieden himself (try a reverse DNS lookup on 150.135.248.126). Move to cleanup for NPOV-ification, which might be hard but oh well.
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looks entirely consistent with the article's description of him. I can't say that it's significant or not, but he does have the
Fischer chair, etc.
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Since criticism has been introduced here, it is only right that some of the conceptual perforations made by these authors should be considered.
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341:, and other writers cite his work at least occasionally. It's a well-known enough theory that people would reasonably want to look it up- keep. -
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matter. Intrinsic information is defined to be the most complete way of describing a contextual object. This is consistent with
Barbieri (
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book; but evidently, this is not out of having read and well-understood it. Finally, contrary to what he claims, information does rule.
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Streater has a short section in his text referring to lost causes in theoretical physics, essentially making three claims against EPI.
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155 Google hits for "B. R. Frieden Tucson." Looks like original research as well. Another vanity article I couldn't let pass by. -
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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Works for me. It was the self-promotional tone and the whacked-out Google search that threw me. Clean and rename. -
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of cleanup/attention, but EPI is a real (if unlikely) physical theory; Frieden has 39 papers in the
Scitation index
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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1094:= minimum. See Frank, J. Evolutionary Biology, âNatural selection maximizes Fisher Informationâ, Jan. 2009,
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These POV-pushing edits should be modified to more accurately describe the status of Frieden's work.---
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https://web.archive.org/web/20050908074451/http://www.optics.arizona.edu/faculty/resumes/frieden.htm
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994:: Friedenâs approach does not start with the Schrodinger equation. It starts with general forms
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information. The derivations of each chapter demonstrate this. The right physics results out of
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
318:. I'm far from a mathmetician, but this could use a look from someone who knows the subject. -
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or something; it's the theory that gets any press -- Frieden himself is not otherwise notable.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20050403215217/http://www.mth.kcl.ac.uk/~streater/lostcauses.html
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Comment number two: Wile was right about the proxy. It's from the University of Arizona. -
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Binder, Philippe M. (2000). "Physics from Fisher Information: A Unification (a review)".
1058:: Shalizi is unable to see any reason why the physical information should be maximized.
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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Kibble, T. W. B. (1999). "Physics from Fisher Information: A Unification (a review)".
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B. Roy Frieden claims to have developed a "universal method" in physics, based upon
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1032:: Fisher Information really is maximized, but out of the variation of quantity
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821:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
711:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include
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Case, James (2000). "An Unexpected Union---Physics and Fisher Information".
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https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257780021_The_Paradigms_of_Biology
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from R. F. Streater (Mathematics, Kings College, London) (highly critical)
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Comment: Looks like another article came in from the same proxy. See
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Matthews, Robert (1999). "Physics and Fisher Information (a review)".
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Information. These are expressed by values of information functions
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has used the following IPs to make a number of questionable edits:
154:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
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once I have obtained his second book.---20:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
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not being the potential energy. It is quite clearly shown that
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from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
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adds uncritical description of his highly dubious claim that
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adds uncritical mention of his controversial claim that the
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adds uncritical mention of his controversial claim that the
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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http://www.sintropia.it/journal/english/2013-eng-3-01.pdf
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http://www.optics.arizona.edu/Faculty/Resumes/Frieden.htm
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Physics from Fisher Information: A Unification (a review)
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in each case, something that Streater has not denied.
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934:: Streater claims that: Frieden generally identifies
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Fisher Information - Frieden unification Of Physics
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539:23 May 2006
530:6 June 2006
524:20 May 2005
72:Start-class
1126:Categories
874:Report bug
764:Report bug
543:Lagrangian
444:. January.
431:. July 17.
857:this tool
850:this tool
747:this tool
740:this tool
429:SIAM News
327:Lucky 6.9
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