698:(Former comment was "Only if the text is fixed. I just now rewrote it, and if that stays (or something of that general effect), then fine; if not, count me out and switch my vote." The description ("an initialism of 'big black cock'") doesn't tell me much or work for me. "a racist sexual fetish term in pornography" does. After all, the term is sky-is-blue racist, and the target does start right in (in the first sentence) with "fetishization" and "porn". Aren't these a little more important and enlightening about the entity than what it technically stands for? These things -- that it's racist and offensive, that it's a fetish term, and that it's something you see in porn shows rather than rel life or general discourse -- are the key things to know about the entity. (That's why the target starts with "Most commonly, black men are expected to be hyper-masculine and hyper-sexual, and their fetishization is seen predominately throughout porn" before they even define the initialism, I suppose. Why should we do worse.) And for another thing, it's going to get the people who are deleting the entry off our backs and save the drama. It's fine to have offensive terms, but we need to label them as offensive for the benefit of the reader and because some editors like us to, even if you don't.
1487:) 18:42, 4 May 2021 (UTC) EDIT: I wanted to add that Option 1 is not OK in my book. The main thing about the entity is that it's a racist meme. That's the key thing about the entity (based on what the target says). If for some reason you felt the need to keep the descriptor part really short, "racist porno meme" or something would be better than just saying "big black cock" which doesn't tell the reader much. It's actually borderline peculiar to avoid explaining the entity accurately, particularly on such a fraught subject. I actually prefer
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831:(specifically, in this case, that being in the wrong side of history is not long-term beneficial to the project) trumps all that. It's fine, bless your hearts and you do you. Anyway, I'm not all that interested in engaging on this subject with editors who write "I think the question of whether the term is 'racist' is more complex than the discussion represents" in context of the material being discussed here.
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I don't see a point to add pornographic material here, and there are other non-sense slangs included in the "Other uses" section. There are so many slangs used in the pornographic industry, it is not necessary to add each and every one. How does it encourage expand knowledge of future generations, it
871:
It's racist. Did you take a look at the link target. It may be summarized as "HOLY SHIT IS THIS SHIT RACIST" and there are plenty of good refs. You want to elide what the target is in the link description. Why. You say you have other sources and can change the target article, do that, let's see them,
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It's not a good look. We don't play oop-we're-just-neutral-here with stuff like "Rapemeat, a descriptive term used for women" and whatnot. (I hope.). Just laying out "big block cock" without further explaino is basically being racist in our own voice, or anyway closer to it than I like (I said more
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British-born
Chinese "BBC", a song on the Jay-Z album Magna Carta... Holy Grail Bale, Benzema, and Cristiano, Real Madrid footballers Barzagli, Bonucci, and Chiellini, Juventus and Italian national footballers BBC, the Big Block Chevrolet engine BBC (pornographic term), an initialism of "big black
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We don't have to play into that if we don't want to. If the link is going say not "it's a weirdo racist fiction trope, here's the link" but rather "So many Black bucks have huge units that there's even a word for it, here's more about that", then just forget it. And it does, and I guess that's not
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the term. This is a no-brainer: 1) usage is widespread and long term, making searches for this meaning very probable, and 2) Knowledge (XXG) has good, RS'd content on it that provides much more context than a dicdef. (Er, dickdef?) Why wouldn't we make that content accessible? I can't see a reason
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That fetishization claim in the article is sourced to
Rolling Stone magazine, which is a very weak source for something that should have an academic source. I oppose listing it here. Since BBC in the porn sense isn't an article, it doesn't need to be listed here. We are
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pornographic term BBC we need to distinguish from which also stands for 'big black cock' but which isn't a "racist sexual fetish genre". The other reason is that it's generally not appropriate to use an evaluative label in wikivoice. e.g. we would never describe the
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So... I've dealt on occasion with porno stuff, and three things I've noted is that 1) porno fans think this stuff is real, 2) they are out to use the
Knowledge (XXG) to imply that, and 3) they have succeeded, a lot more than you might think (a
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the proper target. However, the above draft needs work: Change it to "sexual fetishization"; I don't think "racial fetishization" is a meaningful phrase. If we really want "race" in there, there'll be a way to do it. Actually, per
666:. Pornocruft. It doesn't point to an article, which is not a deal-killer since links sometimes don't, but they usually do... and if they don't it's data point that the entity might not be that notable. And this one isn't.
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about that in my comment above). Let's not do that. So really, just leave it out altogether then. Sounds like a dramafest and it's not worth it for something so obscure and cluelessly discordant to our readers of color.
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It is more complex because we are only looking at sources viewing it as a racist identifier, and not at black performers and producers in that space using the terminology to identify themselves and their own products.
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including something like this entry (see revision suggested below). This is a very common term which has entered mainstream parlance (mostly via 20+ years of
Internet memes though also some movies; it's comparable to
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Disambiguation pages are not a glossary for slang terms. Unless there is a
Knowledge (XXG) article with relevant content supporting the usage, there is nothing to disambiguate within the context of Knowledge (XXG).
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I don't see why
Knowledge (XXG) should be used to promote a troll term and I don't know if "fetishization" is supported by reliable sources (I know that's in the article, but I don't know if it is justified).
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I did a search....seems to not be in common use. I've found three lists with 15-20 definitions of BBC and it wasn't on any of them. Although I did find it defined as such in a couple of specialty places.
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You look at porn over the last 10 years, what has been the biggest shit? Interracial, BBC. ...evident through the continued hypersexualization of Black women or the "big Black cock" fetish in porn.
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as 2nd choice (I agree that it's a bit redundant since "pornography" is already included in the disambiguator). Version 3 is out of the question; this is not SocialJusticeBrowbeatingPedia.
1339:, initialism of "big black cock" in racial fetish pornography". The first line says too little and the second one makes a judgment better worked out in the linked article section.
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Seeing Black men in porn labelled as 'Thugs' or, 'BBC' (to name but two harmful categorisations) or 'Black has off-line and real-world psychological consequences...
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style redirect on the dab page, because the initialism is used much more frequently than the expanded form. (I would compare it to how we have the article title
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May I ask why the addition of BBC as a porn/sexual term had been reverted countless times, even though it is a used term in somewhat reliable sources such as
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mostly discusses it in that context, and any other disambiguators I could think of - like "(sexual slang)" - felt more awkward. But open to other options.)
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and several other sexual slang acronyms). And the article section in question even covers the term (both abbreviated and not) in considerable detail, so it
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the actors are Black. What else would they be. And it's their paid job. So that's going to color anything they say probably. But let's see the refs.
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Disagree on a couple grounds. One is that the purpose of the text in a dab entry is not to give a summary of the topic - it's only to disambiguate.
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going to change. We don't need it. It's not a net benefit to the encyclopedia to be implying that sort of thing, so just leave it off altogether.
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Right. I've been here a long time and I understand that I'm not going to get thru to you people on subjects like this, nor get you to agree that
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as a bad movie, even though basically the whole world agrees that it's bad; instead, we say things like "A number of publications have labeled
463:'In my experience, my worth is often only perceived sexually. There are always references to me having a "BBC" (big black c*ck),' says Rhammel
1239:. BD2412's suggestion did get considerable support, but the majority of editors argue that dab pages should be kept as concise as possible.
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813:"The (pornographic term)" qualifier indicates that we are listing a non-neutral term. Further explanation can be found in the article.
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I did not say that I have other sources, I said that there are both performers and producers of this content who are themselves black.
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is already included in the title of the linked page, and the page itself talks about the racial aspects of the term in great detail.
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Descriptions should be kept short, and mentioning 'pornography' when there is already '(pornographic term)' is needlessly redundant.
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1412:: "Keep the description associated with a link to a minimum, just sufficient to allow the reader to find the correct link."
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should we create a redirect and list that on the dab? A Cirrus search currently doesn't come up with the suggested target.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Keep the description associated with a link to a minimum, just sufficient to allow the reader to find the correct link.
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1408:. I'm also fine with BD2412's suggestion as a second choice, but I don't think the extra text is necessary, per
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provides a good model. We don't need to mention that Adolf was racist to disambiguate him from other
Hitlers.
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Granted this is a redirect, but typically entries should simply be listed with a link to its expanded form per
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inclusion. A Google search for "BBC porn" returns over 9 million hits, and that's just the way of the world.
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1095:. Blatantly noteworthy and should be mentioned. All "oppose" votes are thinly veiled IDONTLIKEIT nonsense.
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603:- though that's not a perfect analogy, as in that case the slang term is the ptopic for the initialism).
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1512:. Personally I think 1 is adequate but several experienced editors clearly disagree. 2 is overkill.
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I think the question of whether the term is "racist" is more complex than the discussion represents.
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361:: acronyms and other abbreviations do not take quotation marks. And avoid saying "black" twice. So:
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No objection to also having a redirect for the expanded form, but I would somewhat prefer using a
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Ohhhhhh, I see. I think you'd better stop before you make a misstep, to be honest.
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I would think so. There are sources enough to validate that. See, e.g.:
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If it isn't derogatory to black men, then I absolutely support it!!
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BBC Basic should be there, right? I don't do these sorta things.
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and also has a wide use in books about human sexual behaviour
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1433:. Option 2 seems less than ideal per BD2412's reasoning. —
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racialized sexual fetishization of men of
African ancestry
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seems like it covers the topic pretty thoroughly, since
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pages on
Knowledge (XXG). If you wish to help, you can
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The following discussion is an archived record of a
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No further edits should be made to this discussion.
793:to create a freestanding article on the subgenre.
1153:The other uses section doesn't need the following
240:, would it be acceptable to write the following?
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1370:is fine, but if a compromise is a must go with
1210:RfC about wording for the "big black cock" link
32:does not require a rating on Knowledge (XXG)'s
1335:I would go with something along the lines of "
789:hits. That is not obscure. Frankly, there are
489:"Meet the Couple Fighting Porn's Race Problem"
1230:A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
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979:Well of course we don't. We do here though.
785:A Google search for "BBC porn" returns over
523:I created and added a link to the redirect
364:* BBC (big black cock), a term relating to
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106:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Disambiguation
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92:attached to this talk page, or visit the
470:Clarke-Oliver, Lerone (March 30, 2021).
676:of people read us and we do set norms).
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1270:What's better wording for the link to
736:as one of the worst films ever made."
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1491:but BD2412's proposal is reasonable.
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1077:Alright, I made a proper RfC below.
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246:racial fetishization of black men
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1694:The discussion above is closed.
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563:True. I'll go ahead and create
453:Ali, Mishti (March 26, 2021).
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1533:. per the above comments.
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244:"BBC", a term relating to
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1696:Please do not modify it.
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1588:Yes, it should be fine.
1456:Support the proposal by
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1224:Please do not modify it.
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278:Do you have an opinion?
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1219:request for comment
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1637:SMcCandlish
1573:Narky Blert
1493:Herostratus
1481:Herostratus
1435:Mx. Granger
1317:Herostratus
1079:Herostratus
981:Herostratus
945:Herostratus
911:Herostratus
838:Herostratus
773:Herostratus
700:Herostratus
684:Herostratus
651:Narky Blert
374:SMcCandlish
274:SMcCandlish
238:MOS:DABPIPE
131:Other items
1681:Yousef Raz
1163:WP:PURPOSE
301:Crossroads
270:Crossroads
98:discussion
1035:telescope
907:of course
787:a billion
476:Gay Times
395:North8000
185:Gogolplex
152:BBC BASIC
1706:Category
1600:pawtrack
1445:contribs
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1237:Option 1
1181:contribs
1169:unsigned
1143:pawtrack
1116:Vaseline
1097:★Trekker
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729:The Room
359:MOS:ABBR
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723:another
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551:Bagumba
533:Colin M
433:Comment
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1567:. Per
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437:Certes
417:BD2412
36:scale.
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205:wiser
201:older
28:This
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1462:. --
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1050:and
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323:talk
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183:? --
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