1188:
converted to degrees
Celsius, we're not confused by two degrees side by side, are we? Likewise, experience with editing modern airliner articles and the units Boeing uses are irrelevant. The required consideration should be for the user of Knowledge (XXG). To that end, it was noted that the conversion to km/h gives non-aviators a measure to compare aircraft speeds to common methods of transportation, but the conversion to mph and its inclusion was disparaged as "clutter." The barely disguised snobbish disdain in this thread for that segment of the world's population that still uses statute miles seems to be driving the inappropriate editorial overreach that Knowledge (XXG) has become renowned for.
1573:
on the ground. Once the test flying is complete then the aircraft is signed off by the factory and is delivered to the customer. In the press release you linked to, the PR folks are being a bit evasive. They don't say it was "produced", they say it left the factory. It has to "leave the factory" to go through its test flying process, because test flying is done outdoors, but it is not "produced" until all the paperwork is signed off and it has its airworthiness certificate. Test flying is typically done under a temporary flight permit. The key is that it was not turned over to the customer until
January, so it was not completed and signed off until then ("produced"). -
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1043:: Your argument implies that FA is a perfect process that results in flawless articles that can never be improved upon, which is clearly not the case. The fact that the use of conversions is debatable at this point in time, as shown by this debate, illustrates that the article can still be improved over time. FA does not result in immutable articles that are the pinnacle of perfection, so citing FA is a bit of a red herring.
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clear view of the 747, you can make out its shape very easily. Another could be found, but it's compositionally and from a clarity perspective far superior to the
Olympic image. And incidentally Olympic was not a large operator of the 747, but a rather smaller operator. They only ever had 7 in their entire operational lifetime and they operated them for less time than Iberia.
2136:, the Nigerian airline that ceased operations on commercial passenger flights and continues operations on charter passenger flights and Hajj Flights, operates one Boeing 747-200, 5N-MAD, but it is stored for maintenance. If any Wikipedian finds this information useful, please change the information about the operations of the 747-200. Thanks! BuddyHeigh, A Wikipedian at
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1018:. So far, you're the only one to support nmi+mi+km conversions. I'm not sure another people want to continue this discussion, which is long enough already for a minor subject. I'm not sure the FA review has a guideline for aviation units conversions, it's very specific, and the default output of the convert template is not a guideline either.--
2253:
article, and may be the only portion of the article that they read. It gives the basics in a nutshell ... The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. I think the lead currently fails on all these points. I would appreciated that someone who knows about 747s could write a lead that synopsises the key areas.
1649:
unfortunate for us that Boeing didn't deliver the aircraft in the same year that it left the factory. I think we should put "2022" in the infobox, but explain that the aircraft was delivered in 2023, but we could do the reverse too. We could also put "2022/23" in the infobox, and explain it in a footnote.
1191:
The irony is that aviation DOES use statute miles… for horizontal visibility distance, as stated in METAR reports and included in ATIS and AWOS broadcasts. Please convert units to the appropriate other units in significant use worldwide, as hinted by the effort the developers made to include the code
1858:
Disagree. The
Olympic one is not a good photo. The subject and the background are too similar in colour pallet which prevents the viewer from getting a good sense of the outline and shape of the 747 in the image. It's a pretty terrible composition all told. The Iberia one on the otherhand has a very
1572:
I worked as a factory acceptance test pilot, so I do have some insight into how these things are organized and function. Each individual aircraft built has to be test-flown, all the various parameters flight tested and adjusted, such as the engines and the pressurization system, which cannot be done
745:
where a similar, but not identical discussion took place. In that case, there was a discussion if nautical miles or kilometers should be the primary unit. I fully agree that nautical miles is the proper primary unit. There was a secondary discussion if the double conversion should be included. After
818:
Unfortunately, you are mistaken for land distances and speeds, for which the UK still uses statute miles and mph; there are even current post-Brexit proposals to reinstate the official use of many other imperial units. Notwithstanding, aviation uses nautical miles and there's no need to add statute
857:
and it would still be valid, but to make an editorial choice about
Knowledge (XXG)'s presentation. I don't remember any usage of a triple conversion in literature and having two different miles side-by-side seems confusing. So a mile, nautical or land, have to be chosen. As often, I think the best
764:
Statute miles per hour are really only used in one country anymore, the rest of the world uses metric for all common everyday uses, like driving, biking, etc. The whole world uses nautical measures for flying, though, such as feet for altitude and knots for speed, with the exceptions of Russia and
803:
US. Unless I am mistaken, the UK is all metric for land speed and nautical for aviation use. Here in Canada we are pretty typical of most western countries, all land use speeds are in km/h, while marine and aviation are in knots. No one under 40 even knows what a "mph" is. We did away with mph 50
2252:
To a lay reader the lead seems very much too detailed. "In
Knowledge (XXG), the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents... The average Knowledge (XXG) visit is a few minutes long. The lead is the first thing most people read upon arriving at an
1187:
Reading this thread made me cringe. The various arguments made for providing only one conversion instead of two are not valid. There is no need to make an editorial choice about
Knowledge (XXG)'s presentation. Having two different miles side-by-side isn't confusing. When degrees Fahrenheit are
1648:
There is another solution that we haven't mentioned here before: We include both years, as we have reliable sources for both, either in the infobox, or the other year as a footnote. That way were not straying into OR based on personal experience or other synthesis. As I did state before, it's
984:
The double conversions were in place when this article passed FA review. This is
Knowledge (XXG)’s most rigorous article review process with every part of the page nitpicked by experienced editors. There were plenty of discussions about how to display units on the page, but no exceptions to
1919:
I'm pretty sure that the 747 production ended in
December, 2022 but in the page it says, "...manufactured by Boeing Commercial Airplanes in the United States between 1968 and 2023" in the first paragraph. It also says it in the chart. Produced: 1968-2023. We should change it to 2022.
733:
Most
English speakers understand (statute) miles or kilometers. Nautical miles is a little known term outside of the aviation and marine industry. It's a just a few more characters to include (statute) miles and positively impacts understanding for readers, especially those in the
1990:
Lufthansa Flight 540 was the first fatal crash of a 747. On November 20, 1974, it stalled and crashed moments after taking off from Nairobi, with 59 deaths and 98 survivors. The cause was an error by the flight engineer in combination with a lack of a sufficient warning system.
765:
China, which use metres and km/h. The use of km/h gives non-aviators a measure to compare aircraft speeds to common methods of transportation. I can't see adding mph as clutter to the article, unless a strong case can be made that it is somehow really needed. -
1502:
Disagree. A plane is not "complete" or "produced" until after all the required test flights are completed and all the noted defects found have been rectified, so it has to be flown before it is "produced" and also before it is "delivered". -
1088:
Sorry, I know this is approaching "beating a dead horse territory" -- but as I keep looking at different templates, I keep discovering different details. If I knew these details at the start, I would have included it in the original
1253:
Yeah, I agree it needed more clarity. Boeing doesn’t remove it from the order book until the operator takes possession of the plane (which is also when Boeing gets paid) and that’s generally been how we account for these things.
1360:
Do we still agree that the end of production is 2023? The date was changed to 2022 in the infobox (but not the rest of the article) a few weeks ago. Not sure if the change went un-noticed or if we think 2022 is the right
1284:
You’re splitting hairs, Marc. Even though the plane rolled off the manufacturing line in 2022, it was not yet a finished product ready for delivery, therefore I think it’s still appropriate to say it was in production.
1130:
I mainly edit modern airliner articles, where the units are nmi+km. I understand WWII aircraft specs were often in land miles, thus the template include all three units. It seems subpar, maybe it could be reduced to two
1664:
I would support that, since there is no real standard definition of "produced". We could simply indicate when it was "rolled out" of the factory for flight test and when it was actually delivered to the customer. -
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Splitting hairs is wikipedia editors main pastime! But it's a broader problem than for the 747: the "produced" field is often imprecise. Perhaps changing it to "delivered" may be less subject to interpretation?--
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It's also the other way around, at the beginning: many interpret "production" like "first metal cut" (or 1st prepeg layed nowadays?) but for consistency, it should be whenever production of the first example is
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So we agree it has quit the assembly line(BBC)/factory(many) early December and flew on the 18th. The rest is personal belief, as one may ask why there was an event if nothing changed at all on december
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It's all Boeing's fault for delivering after year-end. "Produced" generally means playable aircraft, delivered or not. But we also report what reliable sources state. Have we checked recent sources?
1844:
one. Now, Iberia is sometimes not even known to operate 747, as due to their limited operations. But Olympic Airlines was rather a larger operator. So, I prefer an Olympic Airlines 747-200 photo.
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This page has included nautical miles as the primary unit of measure while offering conversion to statute miles and kilometers for 15 years, including when the article reached featured status.
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reading over that discussion, in my opinion, most of the users disagreed with Marc's assertion that including (statute) miles was overly exhaustive and impacted readability.
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1714:'"'final assembly of the last new Boeing 747 reportedly is near at the company’s factory (...) The left wing for the freighter... has been staged on the production line
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Either image is fine but I prefer the Iberian one. Pics from below taken during take off or landing are a dime a dozen but pics from above in the air are much rarer.
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outlets may use the local land unit. I think Knowledge (XXG) should follow the specialist literature, not the generalist kind. Note that Boeing itself uses only
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I know the paperwork. It accompanies every aircraft for its whole life. Regarding it this way "production" ends when the aircraft is being scrapped - as
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The fact is, the mi conversion was removed later… and we are overriding the default setting on the conversion template to eliminate the mi conversion.
1697:. Argument: 1574 airframes multiplied by say 10 production steps were done by 2022 and probably one step out of those 15740 was completed in 2023. ;-)
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That's Knowledge (XXG)'s default, useful for ground transport. The fact that it's not a mandatory conversion is a hint to adapt it to the context.--
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for bringing this in talk. The point here is not determining which unit is the most suitable, they are all fundamentally abstract, we could pick
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Does an Iran Air image look better than the Iberia one?(At least it's more colourful than the Iberia one, it has some blue) Here is the image:-
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and I are having a bit of a disagreement about the including the conversion of nautical miles to statute miles in addition to kilometers.
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default to double output... if everyone feels strongly that's wrong... it needs to be a wider discussion than on just this talk page.
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I’m confused, how would a nmi to km mi be useful for ground transport, but not here. Ground transportation rarely uses nmi.
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I tried a minute to find out when the last one was started. In June they still told press of two months for an aircraft
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The two months I doubted very much - obviously the spokesperson meant pure assembly: Around the same press invitation:
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We can only use photos that have been licensed and donated. Also we don't put galleries of photos in articles as per
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Aircraft are not fully completed until they are delivered; the last 747 was delivered in January 2023 to Atlas Air.
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2184:? Anybody please reply to my image changing request. If it's wrong, please inform or if it's correct, also inform.
598:. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of
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There's an article that has been created based on the first Boeing 747. So I would suggest we insert links to the
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The "produced" definition is still lacking. I proposed a change to "delivered", but it would need a wide change.--
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However in todays new york times it states the last plane is being handed to customers today, 2023/01/31. Source:
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Wiki currently states (citing facebook -not an ideal source in my opinion) that the last plane went out in 2022.
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I appreciate the discussion so far, but the responses here are also not addressing one of my other main points:
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a certificate which you call a temporary flight permit. This is the first of many temporary certificates.
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Should we adjust this, or is the last production date based on some assembly step, rather than delivery?
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Aircraft that are completed but kept by the manufacturer would mess up the aircraft count up a bit.
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does it say that it is intended only for WWII aircraft or that it’s not intended modern airliners?--
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I personally think a photo of a Pan Am plane is worse, I like the Iberia one better. Change it!
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Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
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1060:, yes I am in favour of just using nmi+km and not mph. I also agree that we are getting into
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as Spaeth did long in advance. It is about sources and cannot be pushed aside as "PR folks".
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Example of how I would like show the conversions: 4,620 nautical miles (5,320 mi; 8,560 km)
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This may apply for a prototype, but not for a production item. Many technical products get
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What no gallery of pictures of the inside of a 747. No pictures of rare designs of 747s.
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Example of how Marc prefers the conversions to be shown: 4,620 nautical miles (8,560 km)
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territory here. This debate has pretty much run out and a consensus has been reached. -
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Haha! I don't have only one photo of an Olympic 747 at Wikimedia Commons. I have tens!
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before delivery but this is not production. Boeing themselves stated in december, that
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This article appeared on Knowledge (XXG)'s Main Page as Today's featured article on
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I agree with Stepho-wrs. Although, I don't have a strong preference either way. --
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years ago for any use. No longer use furlongs or leagues for distance, either. -
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one, too reddish and too yellowish. Replace it with a rather cool, blue themed
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https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/File:Boeing_747-286BM,_Iran_Air_AN0763716.jpg
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the papers and certificates are actually temporary. As you said yourself; it
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Delivery on the other hand cannot be the end of production - by definition.
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This has been revised/clarified by User:RickyCourtney minutes ago. Regards
481:) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other
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This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/31/business/last-boeing-747-plane.html
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A news item involving this article was featured on Knowledge (XXG)'s
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Please discuss why you think the infobox image should be changed.
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Only used in one country? Were you thinking of UK or US? Thanks.
1527:"Production of the 747 (...) began in 1967 and spanned 54 years"
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You don't appear to have any, at least not under this account.
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as well, Bloomberg which is good enough in the article wrote
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1010:'s position is favourable to nmi+km units, like myself, and
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Featured articles that have appeared on the main page twice
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Facts from this article were featured on Knowledge (XXG)'s
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I don't know if it's stated in the template. It's usual.--
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practice is to follow the usage of our references. Most
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I also feel at this point, when you consider that both
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To me, that suggests the format we should be using. --
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Including conversion of nautical miles to statute miles
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747-200 rather looks beautiful(to me) rather than the
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Featured articles that have appeared on the main page
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was the last commercial operator of the 747-200. But
1416:(January 31, 2023). The most relevant quote would be
693:] The anchor (#Trent 600 – First proposal) has been
2333:
Knowledge (XXG) level-5 vital articles in Technology
2046:
in the preservation section or however you call it.
1420:. Not "produced" but "handed over", or delivered.--
1269:
The infobox field is "produced", not "delivered".--
985:
displaying a double conversion of nmi to km and mi.
883:
My preference would be both units abbreviated, btw!
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2308:Knowledge (XXG) articles that use American English
1769:https://commons.wikimedia.org/Category:Boeing_747
1016:no need to add statute miles to aviation articles
33:for general discussion of the article's subject.
2061:Semi-protected edit request on 10 February 2024
887:Another observation... when you use nmi with
8:
2323:Knowledge (XXG) vital articles in Technology
257:. Even so, if you can update or improve it,
253:as one of the best articles produced by the
247:; it (or a previous version of it) has been
2124:! A problem about the last operator of the
1418:On Tuesday, Boeing handed over the last 747
898:→ 4,640 nautical miles (8,590 km; 5,340 mi)
741:Marc pointed me to a prior conversation at
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469:, which has its own spelling conventions (
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1601:You cannot ignore what is being written.
1522:. Factory commonly means production site.
2008:It is mentioned in the daughter article
592:This article is within the scope of the
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2318:Knowledge (XXG) level-5 vital articles
1438:must have been produced by then. ;-)--
1417:
1414:The Last Boeing 747 Leaves the Factory
1015:
610:. To use this banner, please see the
2338:FA-Class vital articles in Technology
1706:It was clear that delivery was about
1693:to keep it simple, proposal Infobox:
489:, this should not be changed without
7:
2303:Knowledge (XXG) In the news articles
1434:One could argue, that a plane, that
620:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Aviation
23:for discussing improvements to the
1520:the last item has left the factory
14:
2283:Knowledge (XXG) featured articles
2120:Greetings from fellow Wikipedian
50:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome!
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1154:Where in the instructions for
532:It is of interest to multiple
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2358:WikiProject Aviation articles
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1695:"2022 (last delivery 1/2023)"
1202:01:44, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
644:This article is supported by
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42:Put new text under old text.
2298:Old requests for peer review
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891:the default output is km mi.
819:miles to aviation articles.
2091:to reactivate your request.
2079:has been answered. Set the
2030:01:04, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
2003:00:52, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
1922:CreatorOfMinecraftHerobrine
729:Here's the way I see it...
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2343:FA-Class aviation articles
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1210:Last Plane - 2022 or 2023?
1192:in your conversion tools.
365:Featured article candidate
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2216:22:36, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
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1951:Changed the infobox image
1806:Hello Jayiscool1999, you
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80:Be welcoming to newcomers
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2099:City of Everett aircraft
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1708:3 months late in the end
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911:00:26, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
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862:use nmi/km units, while
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2313:FA-Class vital articles
2128:. Yes, it is true that
1156:Template:Aircraft specs
1098:Template:Aircraft specs
1083:Template:Aircraft specs
2010:Boeing 747 hull losses
743:Talk:Airbus A350#Units
695:deleted by other users
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75:avoid personal attacks
1915:Production of the 747
1810:looks worse than the
868:nautical miles and km
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526:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
519:level-5 vital article
100:Neutral point of view
2247:
2097:To add links to the
1721:Aviation Week report
1530:is the other hint.--
896:{{Convert|4640|nmi}}
849:Hi Everyone. Thanks
647:the aircraft project
595:Aviation WikiProject
487:relevant style guide
483:varieties of English
346:Good article nominee
105:No original research
1955:Please do not undo
485:. According to the
1719:, according to an
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2248:Lead doesn't work
2176:Hello? Anybody...
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1078:One more thing...
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1062:WP:DEADHORSE
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279:May 12, 2021
259:please do so
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19:This is the
2048:14.2.34.249
1341:finished.--
1081:When using
860:trade press
607:task forces
464:written in
388:In the news
327:Peer review
148:free images
31:not a forum
2277:Categories
2257:. Thanks
2186:BuddyHeigh
2178:User:McSly
2163:BuddyHeigh
2141:BuddyHeigh
2122:BuddyHeigh
2116:Operations
2081:|answered=
2017:Acroterion
1877:BuddyHeigh
1846:BuddyHeigh
1820:BuddyHeigh
1765:WP:GALLERY
864:mass media
601:open tasks
418:column on
392:column on
351:Not listed
250:identified
241:Boeing 747
25:Boeing 747
2154:New Image
1937:-Fnlayson
1787:New photo
1679:Exactly.
1605:mentions
1593:does have
1468:Agreed.--
1320:-Fnlayson
1240:-Fnlayson
522:is rated
408:Main Page
382:Main Page
277:, and on
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2134:Kabo Air
2130:Iran Air
1607:54 years
1131:units.--
1089:message.
1012:Rosbif73
821:Rosbif73
617:Aviation
558:Aircraft
553:Aviation
524:FA-class
479:traveled
370:Promoted
332:Reviewed
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2255:WP:LEAD
2206:Stepho
2126:747-200
1816:Olympic
1744:Gallery
1725:Anidaat
1619:Anidaat
1532:Anidaat
1516:checked
1440:Anidaat
1361:date.--
697:before.
475:defense
410:in the
384:in the
310:Process
154:WP refs
142:scholar
2180:...or
2023:(talk)
1832:Hello
1812:Pan Am
1681:BilCat
1651:BilCat
1617:6th?--
1392:BilCat
530:scale.
430:, and
313:Result
126:Google
2230:McSly
2085:|ans=
2075:This
2044:N7470
2037:N7470
1818:one.
1773:Ahunt
1667:Ahunt
1575:Ahunt
1505:Ahunt
1363:McSly
1066:Ahunt
1008:Ahunt
806:Ahunt
767:Ahunt
511:This
471:color
243:is a
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
2264:talk
2260:Anna
2234:talk
2211:talk
2190:talk
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2145:talk
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2052:talk
1999:talk
1976:talk
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1881:talk
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1850:talk
1824:talk
1797:talk
1777:talk
1754:talk
1729:talk
1723:".--
1685:talk
1671:talk
1655:talk
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1229:talk
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1137:talk
1106:talk
1096:and
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1024:talk
994:talk
959:talk
945:talk
907:talk
876:talk
825:talk
810:talk
787:talk
771:talk
755:talk
678:Tip:
604:and
307:Date
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
2083:or
1589:all
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