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claim, the publication from
University of Michigan Press, expressly contradicts this, from my own short review of it, at least as far as the 'balls' of Harlem/New York in the early 20th century were concerned; And despite the clearly sympathetic tone of that said publication, even it says that the claims of disparity of judgement in earlier 'balls', from before they became largely African and Hispanic gatherings, are disputed, despite that claim being repeated as fact here, in a supposedly generic, encyclopedic entry. Regarding articles 'of this subcategory', take, for example, the beginning of the 'United States' subsection of the 'History' section of the closely related 'Cross-dressing balls' article. Its style and tone (E.g. talk of 'fun'), as well as the use of vague, flowery, and often sweepingly broad language to allow certain claims to exist without explicit declaration (The beginning of this subsection is titled 'stag dance', for example, and while there were certainly examples of this becoming a homosexual phenomenon, often involving crossdressing, the use of a photograph showcasing 'stag' dancing of the most mundane type, shows the intent). Take this excerpt, regarding, as the article states, "cowboys, miners, loggers, mountain men or railroad workers": "In these groups, men often formed intimate friendships, that sometimes ended in real love stories, that were accepted as a fact of life." These articles often appear to be almost a form of journalistic (In the sense of 'journalism', not the academic sense) publication lauding the particular movement which the article may cover.
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us that there is almost 150 years of history to balls, but tells us almost nothing about them. It tells us that the first balls were gatherings of former slaves to dance in silk and satin dressed and invitations were given at the YMCA, but it doesn't tell us when or where these balls happened, or how many people attended. It tells us that the first
Hamilton Lodge ball was definitely integrated, but it doesn't even tell us which decade that it happened in. Its very clear that despite being integrated (when this was extremely rare for any event) it was still extremely racist, but doesn't give a citation for that. The whole article tells us that balls are a black and Latino sub culture, but also that the first balls were integrated with whites in charge, and only later did the black and Latino participants make their own balls. We are told that the format "we know" arose in the 1950s but it doesn't tell us what that format is, or how previous balls were different.
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page, and while I don't know which is correct I can certainly tell which is better presented and more in keeping with
Knowledge approach. I am just not convinced that this page is needed at all. Any useful information could easily be merged into the larger page, and the minutiae of which categories can be competed in and what houses participate can be cut because this stuff is not really notable. If nothing else, I completely support all of the tags that have been put on this page.
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Apologies if my edits were problematic. I agree with a lot of your criticisms, IMO, the "stag dances" should be spun off onto its own article. I'll admit that I don't know enough about this topic area to correct any creeping errors, but I have thought this article and the cross-dressing one had some
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There's a lot of odd non sequiturs, repetition and weird formatting choices in this article. Just in the first paragraph we see it repeated twice that people walk for prizes and trophies, and then that ball culture is rooted in necessity (for what?) and defiance (of what?). The history section tells
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redirects to this article, which I'm surprised to see no longer mentions him. I'm pretty certain this is because we used to have some content here on House of
Pendavis. I'll look through the history if I get a chance, but does anyone know offhand why the content was removed? Can it be reinstated or
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The style, to speak loosely, more or less resembles magazine articles presenting a panegyric. Substantial revisions to tone and style are needed to make this resemble something encyclopedic, as well as citations for any claims that may remain in the article. Unfortunately, this has become a large
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page, which has a much more comprehensive history and vastly better context. Importantly; much of what is on this page is not really compatible with what is presented on the much larger ball article. The US drag ball section of that page covers much the same ground but is quite different to this
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I wouldn't reverse your edit myself, but, short of deleting the article entirely, it would be best to do research before editing. Take, for example, the claim that your own edit repeated, about judges at earlier versions of these 'balls' being exclusively White. The main source cited for this
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serious issues in terms of tone. Probably a lot of effort to expect a new editor like yourself to do, but any help you could give recovering these articles would be greatly appreciated. Happy to help where I can. —
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Its all just a mess, honestly. It desperately needs more mainstream citations too, because the academic texts are obscure and we are left to guess if they are based on first hand accounts or what.
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Cross-dressing ball is already very long and Ball culture is definitely important enough to merit its own article. Ensuring that content here is reflected there, however is worth doing. —
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I don’t have strong feelings either, but the first sentence is easier to change than the article title. Is there a better reason to prefer ballroom scene? What do sources use?
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki
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on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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I don't have very strong feelings, but I would definitely like to know what queer
Wikimedians of colour think about it… —
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on the article talk page - any input on this would be appreciated, but I'm aware this may have to be a separate proposal.
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I completely agree with you on just about everything - I personally think that this whole page should be merged with the
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column on 4 February 2007. The text of the entry was as follows:
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is there any reason Williams' names should instead redirect to
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On 13 November 2023, it was proposed that this article be
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Articles created or improved during Wiki Loves Pride 2017
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Unknown-importance Hispanic and Latino American articles
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has been notified of this discussion. —usernamekiran
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has been notified of this discussion. —usernamekiran
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1447:move review
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1236:14 May 2021
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693:Latin swing
664:Chorus line
650:Flash dance
578:To cleanup:
565:Scotch reel
561:Sasha Waltz
148:free images
31:not a forum
1714:Categories
1698:GnocchiFan
1521:GnocchiFan
1501:Relisting.
1490:GnocchiFan
1195:Lyz.Merola
1179:Ryanmetier
814:discussion
670:To create:
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617: as per
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283:Knowledge
244:... that
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88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
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1300:Zusty001
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56:get help
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