Talk:Belle Vue Zoological Gardens

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whitecoated bugler, a striking miner from Newton Heath named Johnny Jones. opened the first meeting. Six races were run, with eight dogs in each. all of which were bought by the Association as the expected support from the area's coursing connections did not materialise. The attendance at the first meeting was disappointing; only a tenth of the estimated audience of 20,000 turned up, followed by 1,600 at the next meeting. The third attracted 4,000 and by the end of the first season in October, thirty seven meetings had been held, with an average attendance of 11,000. The Greyhound Stadium and Belle Vue developed in partnership until Sir William Gentle became the first Chairman of the Greyhound Racing Association. He relinquished his seat on the Board of Belle Vue in 1928, and when he died in 1948 he was said to have been a rich man, although he never owned a greyhound and had never placed a single bet.

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50s and 60s era with the dancehalls etc... I've been otherwise distracted of late otherwise I would have filled everything out in more detail. Belle Vue and Broughton were very much in contest with each other and Jennison was always trying to find ways to outdo them, hence the pyrodramas. I do have a lot of info in the books in the bibliography that I haven't touched on yet, but when I get a chance I will indeed have a butcher's through google books with the link you gave. I have had a quick look and yes it does look interesting. So much so I was going to have a stab at buying the book from Amazon UK, until I saw the price! £165.29. Yeah right, I'll have two :) --

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also sell it in the little shop on Picadilly Station Approach which has a load of those thin, A4 sized, local history titles. I bought the one called "Cheetham Hill and Broughton in Regency and Victorian Times" which has a bit about the Zoo in Broughton. I'll see if there is anything useful to add from there and maybe do a seperate article about it although it would probably only be a stub. Funnily enough the house there was called "Bella Vista"! I used to go to Saturday night dances in the Elizabethan Hall too. We would bop about in one room in our "trendy gear" and then go and laugh at the ballroom dancers looking all serious in the next room. And of course

170: 149: 2061: 725:". This is what I mean, there are stacks of little things like this, but I have no idea what should be included and what shouldn't. So I'll work on the assumption that I should put them in, then let someone else take them out if they are so inclined. I do have to say though, that this is also a blast from the past for me too, I'm also finding it very interesting which is the main reason I bought the books after loaning them from the library. I didn't want to give them back but luckily found them on Amazon, who only had one of each in stock! -- 1270:

to BV. Plus the fact that plain old Gorton exists between BV and Debdale Park. Similarly Rusholme doesn't actually border BV as Longsight exists between Rusholme and BV. Though arguably I suppose Chorlton-on-Medlock could be considered to be bordering in a similar way to Debdale having West Gorton between it and BV. BV itself is actually quite small (especially considering the true size of Gorton itself) and only really exists within the triangle of Hyde Rd, Kirkmanshulme Lane and Redgate Lane/Pottery Lane then within the

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project as a whole, but hopefully I'll soon get my act together. This is a pet project for me, along with the Jennison family themselves. I started a userfied subpage article on John Jennison but as in the main article I haven't got round to filling that out either. But yes I agree, the Belle Vue Pyrodramas would make a good article in its own right. --

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failure to sell the Strawberry Gardens property and partly due to the new Manchester & Birmingham Railway—the track cutting through the plot Jennison had leased in December 1836, which cut off the approach from Stockport Road—and partly to the competition from the new Manchester Zoological Gardens at Higher Broughton.

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is probably suitable and you guys can trim out the chaff? There's so much info in the one book I've had to scan it into a PDF so I can do text searches. The info is all over the place and not always in chronological order. BTW, many thanks to both of you for your overseeing me, it's much appreciated. --

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Thanks, I've been meaning to as there's an awful lot I haven't added, but real life isn't giving me the opportunity to sit down, do the reading then convert that into adequate prose for the article. The books are on my shelf just longing to be read. It's not helped of late my dissatisfaction with the

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The only thing I can remember about the place when I was a kid is standing behind that large plate glass window waiting for the splash from the water chute. As I worked at Belle Vue Ambulance Station in the 80s I had to pass the main entrance (or at least where it was) so still have relatively recent

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Please be aware that some of the wording I've used is used deliberately so as to avoid infringing the copyright of the reference source I'm using. I've noticed that when other editors are copyediting the article they are changing the wording back to almost the identical wording used in the reference

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I came across an article in the Guardian Archives from April 1st, 1926, searching under William Gentle. It is a report of an early shareholders meeting. It answers my question above. I thought it may be of interest to editors of this article. You can get a 24hr free pass to the sie by entering, if I

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story is 84 pages of A4 size containing 3 column text in 10pt Courier. There's an amazing amount of info in it. Obviously a lot of it is unsuitable for inclusion but even figuring out what is what is suitable and what isn't is part of the problem for me. So basically what I'll do is add what I think

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I still have to add a couple of what will end up as large sections. There were a couple of exhibition halls in the Gardens that were major venues for music contests/concerts, wrestling matches and various other events. The speedway section still has quite a bit of info to be added. In fact, there is

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This is a really good article and I've done a number of minor edits which I hope makes it scan better. These are mostly a matter of style and I've done them section by section so the can be easily reverted if others don't agree. I would like to suggest a few things that could be explained further to

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Stackhouse and Hyams say much the same thing: "The 1920s were a great time for boxing in Manchester, and Belle Vue became one of the best venues in Europe." Things seem to have gone downhill after the Second World War, but there was still a world title fight between Willie Pastrano and Terry Downes

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By this time the whole Jennison family were involved in the Belle Vue project. Although the Zoo thrived in its early years, by 1842 Jennison was having financial troubles, and on 13 December 1842 bankruptcy proceedings were initiated against him. The money problems were caused in part by Jennison's

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Having said that though, I'm not sure the bordering areas in the table are quite right. Debdale isn't actually an official area (as my snobbish ex-wife insists as she lives there... and thinks it sounds nicer than plain old Gorton!!) and is just an unofficially named part of Gorton in a similar way

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To be honest I haven't really done much research on that section, but I do know from my own local knowledge that the speedway stadium and greyhound track were separate. The Belle Vue Speedway stadium was on the grounds of Belle Vue down at the bottom of Kirkmanshulme Lane near Redgate Lane, whereas

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The section of the book that mentions this says "Jennison's own attractions began in a modest way. On 12th April 1841 a footrace was held in which John Grimshaw of Gorton beat William Walker of Stockport. In the same year. a local landmark, the "Hollow Blasted Oak" of Yew Tree Farm Gorton was moved

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I have to agree on the absurdity, but my point wasn't about the individual editors breaching copyright, it's about the end result making the project breach copyright. After all, copyright is copyright regardless of whether its infringement is deliberate or not. Anyway, I just thought I'd point out

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If the editor making the change hasn't actually seen the original version and therefore can't be copying it, then there can be no question of copyright violation. Sometimes there are rather limited ways of stating a simple fact. That's one of the downsides of the increasingly onerous "one citation

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I had referred to them, albeit in minimal detail, in the fireworks section. I've called them fireworks, the references I had called them both. TBH I didn't really spend a lot of time on the section because I was trying to get a minimal amount on the page about everything and I had yet to cover the

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As an aside, whilst starting the research for this I was amazed to discover that there was a rather large prison, called Belle Vue Prison on Hyde Road in West Gorton, it was knocked down as unsafe in 1890. Jennison, being a pack rat, used a load of the jail's building blocks to construct the rhino

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Well the flea circus is so unlikely to happen now that I would have thought it should go in. Of, course, the difficulty is not to copy the whole book but you're doing fine so far. I saw the book "The story of Belle Vue" the other day in the Salford history library on the Crescent and I expect they

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Oh well, just as well there's a free preview! It looks like the pyrodaramas of that time would make a decent article themselves - it seems that's how Pain's fireworks started out. I was looking for information on the Broughton Zoo when I found that - I'm sure it would be worth a small article - I

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Hey guess what? googled "flea circus" and found a few references including a wikipedia article, so it looks like there's an opportunity to do a two way link there as they only list a couple of famous flea circus's. My main memory of Belle Vue as a kid is the water chute as well. I used to try and

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sources. Please don't change things merely because you think they look better when worded differently, you could actually be changing them to the version I've tried to avoid. If you don't have copies of the reference source could you please be very careful when making subjective edits. Thanks. --

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In the early 1920s an American, Charles Munn, enlisted the support of Major L Lyne Dixon, a noted coursing judge, in establishing greyhound racing in this country. Brigadier General A C Critchley and Sir William Gentle were approached over the raising of finance and in August 1925 the 'Greyhound

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I don't think anyone could be concerned about the odd sentence or two closely reflecting the text of a cited source, particularly if it's accidental. I get concerned when I see passages of text that have clearly been copied, not just a few consecutive words that appear to best express the idea.

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In that case I shall certainly add the flea circus in. This PDF is proving rather useful now seeing how the info is all over the place, whilst searching for "flea" for the above quote, I found on another page the reason the flea circus shut down. Apparently it was because fleas were starting to

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It is not known whether Gentle's interest in Belle Vue arose from any plans he had for the Gardens in this connection, but on 14th October the Association took a seven-year lease on land at the northern end of Kirkmanshulme Lane (the old brickfield, bought in 1872), at an annual rent of £276.

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The choice of the North West to stage the British premiere of the sport was deliberate: it was hoped that the area's coursing tradition would aid the new form of entertainment. With a capital of £22,000, of which £8,000 was borrowed, a stadium was built on the land. and on 27th July 1926 a

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still a lot more info to be added all round. So much so I'm wondering if sub-pages may be the way to go. For example, I have a list of all the battle enactment firework displays, c/w their date and title. I have no idea where to put it, if indeed it should be put anywhere. To give an idea

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He says that New King's Hall at Belle Vue was "the leading boxing venue in Europe". He's not specific, but this was probably in the 1930s which was the "golden age" of boxing in Manchester. Perhaps not enough to add to the article now, but if more can be found it would make a nice quote.

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states that the zoological gardens at Higher Broughton closed in 1840 and the Jennison aquired it's stock. Kidd's book is a general one, so may not be correct or may be missing some details (maybe the place at Higher Broughton was reopened) but the above quote doesn't seem quote right.

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New attractions for 1960 included a flea circus, run by a "Professor" Tomlin and his wife, and a side show called Invisible Rays. Pepino and his miniature circus now featured regularly all year round and Belle Vue became a place of retirement for the circus's ageing

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Yup, there has never been an official area called Belle Vue, it's always been a part of Gorton. The area known unofficially as BV only became such after the Zoo was established. The BV area comes under the M18 postal code, i.e. Gorton.

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the greyhound track as it stands now is at the top end of Kirkmanshulme Lane. I've only had a brief read through of the relevant sections in the books so I'm not 100% sure of what, where and how things were at the very beginning.

940:. Can you throw any light on that? I would tend to go with your article, because I think the other is s copy/precis of a poorly researched piece available on the net. But I do understand that the Belle Vue track, operated by the 673:

Yup, I've labelled it as Mark one because, and I can't remember the dates at the mo, there was a big change round in the organisation. I suppose it can be removed for the time being as I can see that it could be confusing at the

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So it sounds like the current location is the original site and may have been a temporary venue for the speedway right at the very beginning until the speedway stadium was built. I'll see what else I can find out.

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A lot of the smaller rides and attractions in the amusement park were owned and run by third parties. These sorts of rides were known as "concessions". The guy who owned the majority of them was Alf Wadbrooke.

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Well it's a definite inclusion then :) Not only that, I've found a pic of the front of the place. It's needs some cleanup in Photoshop, so when I've finished it I'll upload it and add it to the article.--

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of Belle Vue St, Hyde Road and Pottery Lane, i.e. the other side of Hyde Road. An area I'm quite well up on as I worked from Belle Vue Ambulance Station for a number of years in the late 80s. --

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Glad to help, its an excellent article. Have you found anything about the fea circus? I remember seeing it in the 60's in a tiny circular booth - these things were a real historical curiousity.

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which is rather interesting - it's all about the pyrodamas at Belle Vue in the 19th century. A google books search on "Belle Vue Zoological Gardens" comes up with quite a bit of information

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why occasionally my wording is a little awkward. I went to great pains to make sure that I wasn't copying the sources word for word, even though it was a pain in the ass sometimes. --

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Looks like a well-written, well-reserached article. Well done. There seems to be some differences between your account of Belle Vue Speedway/Greyhound racing and the account given at

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article which is totally wrong. It's not an official "district" and it's not in M12. It came close to the Longsight border, but no part of the gardens actually crossed the border. --

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I think you'd need more than that, otherwise the article would very likely be nominated for deletion. You might try looking through the MEN archive and see what you can find there.

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1/ An expanation of "carting customers" in the early history section. I presume this means working men using handcarts but it could be taken refer to the sport of dog carting.

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seem to remember seeing a map of the Broughton Zoo in Salford Local History library and it's mentioned in a few google books. Good to see you back on this article anyway.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120118070248/http://www.parksandgardens.ac.uk/component/option%2Ccom_parksandgardens/task%2Csite/id%2C5027/tab%2Chistory/Itemid%2C292/

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Just wondering why we have "Belle Vue, Gorton, Manchester"? Not a challenge as such, it's just I always thought Belle Vue and Gorton as distinct areas. Am I wrong?

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main article as I think there is already enough info to merit its own article. All I can add differently is an extensive list of performers. Would this be okay?

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Fair enough, I have found that on at least one occasion before (relating to Manchester Cathedral in the same book) he has been inexplicably wrong.

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opened in 1926 - (was there more than one?). Gentle was apparently one of the founders. Grateful for any additional sourced info you can offer.

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Most helpful. Thank you so much for your trouble. Might it be possible for me to ask you for the Nicholls book ISBN, publisher & pub date?

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If you can find enough reliable material on Kings Hall then go for it. It wouldn't make any difference to the size of this article though.

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per sentence" brigade. I think it's rather absurd to avoid the best wording simply because you didn't think of it first. --

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http://www.parksandgardens.ac.uk/component/option%2Ccom_parksandgardens/task%2Csite/id%2C5027/tab%2Chistory/Itemid%2C292/

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remember rightly, "ARCHIVRFREE" in the appropriate space - if the code's wrong, you can find it by searching on Google.

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You'll find them in the article's Bibliography section just above the references, the publisher is Neil Richardson

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of a 1974 closure. In fact the entry in the WP article looks like a straight copy and paste from the above site. --

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https://web.archive.org/web/20141102154817/http://www.sil.si.edu/imagegalaxy/imageGalaxy_enlarge.cfm?id_image=5319

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I'm not certain that Kidd's right in this case. Manchester Zoological Gardens appears to have closed down in 1842.

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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when it closed it 1977, but the Battersea Park article says that the Gardens closed in 1974. Is 1977 right? --

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2/ An explanation of the "Hollow blasted oak" in the financial difficulties section. Was this a living tree?

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4/ In the Gardens and Amusement park section what does "the main concessioniare Al Warbuton" mean exactly?

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5/ There's section called "Belle Vue (Manchester) Lt. Mk 1 (or maybe it's Mkl)" - was there a Mk 2?

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3/The date of Ellie May's euthanasia would round off the last sentence of the paragraph.

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Oops, major brain fart here. Ardwick is of course between C-on-M and West Gorton. --

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become increasingly more difficult to obtain. Sort of like plumber I suppose!

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Yes you're right about not putting the whole book in, it's so tempting :)

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http://shop.manchestergalleries.org/the-disputed-toll-heywood-hardy.html

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I was thinking about copying and pasting the info from this article to

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I don't have a date for it unfortunately, but I'll see what I can find.

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keep my eyes open when the water hit the glass but could never do it!

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deserves its own article by itself. Do we all agree? It's so famous

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Yup, the carting customers were men using carts to transport stuff

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Showcase Cinemas Multi-screen cinema on the site of Belle Vue Zoo

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enclosure. I suppose that little factoid should go in too :) --

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Fair dos! Good stuff even... I'll try to clarify that on the

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I've just done a quick check on Google and can only find one

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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page too so as to help any equally confused readers as me.

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http://menmedia.co.uk/news/s/1044097_bring_back_belle_vue

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to the Gardens after a supposed existence of 500 years."

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Featured articles that have appeared on the main page

391:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 286:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 181:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 1997:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 1887:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 1777:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 988:"The Belle Vue Story" by Robert Nicholls (page 31) 548:This article says that a ride was purchased from 1469:Perhaps worth an article in its own right ... -- 1439: 968: 759:began his DJ career at the Top Ten Club there. 1983:This message was posted before February 2018. 1873:This message was posted before February 2018. 1763:This message was posted before February 2018. 1352:I was looking on Google books and came across 405:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Greater Manchester 8: 43:. Even so, if you can update or improve it, 39:as one of the best articles produced by the 33:; it (or a previous version of it) has been 195:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Amusement Parks 2142:Low-importance Greater Manchester articles 1953:I have just modified one external link on 1843:I have just modified one external link on 567:Yup, that's what my research says. As the 442: 337: 232: 143: 68: 15: 1745:http://www.thebritishopen.net/History.htm 1709:I have just modified 2 external links on 115: 2127:Low-importance England-related articles 1130:P.S. Great to see you back WebHamster! 444: 408:Template:WikiProject Greater Manchester 339: 234: 145: 2112:Low-importance amusement park articles 1639:No comment by anyone on this matter? 1617:This is one big ol' article! I think 571:article wasn't cited I amended it. -- 7: 2137:FA-Class Greater Manchester articles 471:This article is within the scope of 385:This article is within the scope of 280:This article is within the scope of 198:Template:WikiProject Amusement Parks 175:This article is within the scope of 1625:performed there on many occasions! 809:memories about the buildings there. 300:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject England 134:It is of interest to the following 14: 2122:FA-Class England-related articles 2092:Knowledge (XXG) featured articles 1957:. Please take a moment to review 1847:. Please take a moment to review 1713:. Please take a moment to review 1173:Actually I've just looked at the 2107:FA-Class amusement park articles 464: 446: 372: 362: 341: 267: 257: 236: 168: 147: 116: 52: 19: 971:Racing Association was formed. 505:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Zoo 425:This article has been rated as 320:This article has been rated as 215:This article has been rated as 1248:Oh much... and so fast too! :) 388:WikiProject Greater Manchester 1: 1175:Belle Vue, Greater Manchester 915:23:03, 26 November 2007 (UTC) 875:22:59, 26 November 2007 (UTC) 843:19:55, 26 November 2007 (UTC) 769:16:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC) 741:16:03, 26 November 2007 (UTC) 716:15:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC) 700:14:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC) 655:14:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC) 612:14:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC) 587:14:06, 26 November 2007 (UTC) 562:13:59, 26 November 2007 (UTC) 499:and see a list of open tasks. 399:and see a list of open tasks. 294:and see a list of open tasks. 189:and see a list of open tasks. 2051:23:16, 20 October 2017 (UTC) 1955:Belle Vue Zoological Gardens 1845:Belle Vue Zoological Gardens 1711:Belle Vue Zoological Gardens 1603:17:25, 14 January 2010 (UTC) 1582:16:58, 14 January 2010 (UTC) 1567:15:49, 14 January 2010 (UTC) 1553:15:21, 14 January 2010 (UTC) 1532:14:51, 14 January 2010 (UTC) 1518:14:29, 14 January 2010 (UTC) 1495:14:39, 14 January 2010 (UTC) 1477:14:36, 14 January 2010 (UTC) 1461:14:19, 14 January 2010 (UTC) 942:Greyhound Racing Association 938:Belle Vue (greyhound racing) 539:02:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC) 303:Template:WikiProject England 27:Belle Vue Zoological Gardens 2078:16:39, 9 October 2020 (UTC) 1331:13:59, 3 January 2009 (UTC) 1290:03:33, 3 January 2009 (UTC) 1228:01:33, 3 January 2009 (UTC) 1193:01:20, 3 January 2009 (UTC) 1148:01:13, 3 January 2009 (UTC) 1112:01:10, 3 January 2009 (UTC) 1090:01:06, 3 January 2009 (UTC) 1063:12:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC) 1042:22:46, 5 January 2008 (UTC) 1027:21:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC) 1011:13:44, 5 January 2008 (UTC) 954:13:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC) 621:Suggestions for improvement 411:Greater Manchester articles 178:WikiProject Amusement Parks 2168: 2014:(last update: 5 June 2024) 1950:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 1904:(last update: 5 June 2024) 1840:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 1831:20:30, 19 April 2017 (UTC) 1794:(last update: 5 June 2024) 1706:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 1635:07:44, 25 March 2013 (UTC) 965:Here's a relevant section: 544:Gardens and amusement park 431:project's importance scale 326:project's importance scale 221:project's importance scale 97:Featured article candidate 2132:WikiProject England pages 1941:14:12, 17 July 2017 (UTC) 1692:21:20, 2 April 2013 (UTC) 1680:21:05, 2 April 2013 (UTC) 1662:21:01, 2 April 2013 (UTC) 1649:19:16, 2 April 2013 (UTC) 1426:11:11, 15 June 2009 (UTC) 1404:23:46, 14 June 2009 (UTC) 1389:23:25, 14 June 2009 (UTC) 1366:23:03, 14 June 2009 (UTC) 459: 424: 380:Greater Manchester portal 357: 319: 252: 214: 163: 142: 71: 67: 41:Knowledge (XXG) community 2152:WikiProject Zoo articles 1160:Why thank you :blush: :) 530:WikiProject class rating 508:Template:WikiProject Zoo 306:England-related articles 61:Today's featured article 2117:Amusement park articles 1946:External links modified 1836:External links modified 1702:External links modified 550:London Festival Gardens 201:amusement park articles 2065: 1524:held there in 1964. -- 1446:Alan Kidd in his book 1444: 1436:Financial difficulties 991: 124:This article is rated 2147:FA-Class Zoo articles 2063: 1448:Manchester: A History 128:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 1995:regular verification 1885:regular verification 1775:regular verification 1068:Belle Vue or Gorton? 1985:After February 2018 1875:After February 2018 1765:After February 2018 283:WikiProject England 2066: 2039:InternetArchiveBot 1990:InternetArchiveBot 1929:InternetArchiveBot 1880:InternetArchiveBot 1819:InternetArchiveBot 1770:InternetArchiveBot 402:Greater Manchester 393:Greater Manchester 349:Greater Manchester 130:content assessment 72:Article milestones 2015: 1905: 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