1539:: I think it's pretty clear from just the comics alone that Ben Garrison is far right and extremely pro-Trump. I think the idea that he is a libertarian when the main subject of his comics is hero worship of the (now former) president is pretty laughable. (FWIW I also think the idea that libertarianism can be said to "generally oppose mob violence" is false and the idea that it "supports strict adherence to the rule of law" is extremely false. The main uniting characteristic of libertarians is that they are anti-government and anti-law. Hero-worship of the president, especially an authoritarian like Trump, is not a very libertarian thing to do.) "Alt-right" I'm unsure on: that label is more-or-less a euphemism for "Nazi" and so I want to avoid it unless the sources for it are overwhelming. We do have some really good sources saying he's alt-right (tho I'd discount the NYT one because of
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language more like "conservative libertarian," or "right wing libertarian" which matches his self identification and is used in sources as well, but on the balance I think the sources will keep this as alt-right and I don't think the label matters overmuch because there's a huge amount of overlap in the labeling of right wing figures. I almost feel bad for the guy, he's like the right wing, anti central banking, anti government hipster. He was doing it before it was cool.
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1597:: Pre-Trump, Garrison made a lot of cartoons against the two main parties, state surveillance, "big government" etc. Those could be qualified as libertarian, though he was hardly ever the subject of sources then, apart from when he was addressing the far-right troll edits of those pieces. There's no doubt that since Trump, his cartoons are completely in line with the alt right. Here are some old ones which are clearly not as authoritarian or partisan
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1581:- It's clear from sources (the wired piece for example in the RFC) that he's made a living off publishing in alt-right spaces and the content of his cartoons align with the politics of those spaces. Actions rather than self ascription are more important when determining political positions. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
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information. And doubly so when they are not directly about the topic of the article,. (e.g. "these type of people like his stuff"). BTW, the common form of libertarianism in the US (the type which about 25% of US citizens identify as) was mis-characterized above. A much closer description woulf be "prioritizing smaller and less intrusive government in all decisions").
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the artist himself doesn't necessarily share those views. It's notable that the far right have even edited his works to give the impression of support for them, and the author clearly rejects this. To that end I'm struggling to understand the push for this beyond political agenda-pushing. It should be removed. -
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Gizmodo isn’t a great source. I just read about him on the sorryantivax website. Him having Covid is relevant. But let’s keep that info off the page until there are better reliable sources. I’m sure it will only be a day or so before bigger media picks up the story and reports on it. Knowledge (XXG)
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I think he has the bad luck to have had a lot of beliefs before the rise of the alt-right that ended up adopted by the alt-right. He is a classic anti central bank, borderline conspiracy theorist libertarian, but the abundance of sources will refer to him as alt right or new right. I'd prefer to see
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Thanks. That's an improvement, but from what I can see the second source doesn't actually support the label 'alt-right'. In fact, it looks like the only source labelling
Garrison as 'alt-right' is the first NYT link you added. Considering that the other sources here (including #2) almost unanimously
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Despite several editors repeatedly adding this back, none of the sources provided support applying this label to
Garrison. In the cited articles the artist is consistently referred to as "pro-Trump" or "libertarian", and these sources recognise that while his works are popular with alt-right circles
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Just as we should ignore Ben
Garrison's opinion that he is not racist or anti-semitic, a simple google search disproves this, we would also be safe to ignore he pleas to not be associated with the alt-right or far-right. I address this because it's the only reason anyone has presented to oppose the
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Following the discussion about using "far right", the description of the author has been changed to "alt-right" based on a small subset of sources. However, the majority of sources currently used by the article describe
Garrison as either a "libertarian" or "pro-Trump" cartoonist whose work appeals
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Invited by the bot. I'm not going to weigh in on the specific question. In general I favor leaving out characterizations by political opponents, including when that political opponent is a "source" because such characterizations are merely characterizations by political opponents rather than
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Appreciated, though with so many other sources using other labels, and the Wired piece and others making it clear that his content is being edited to imply support for ideologies which the artist rejects, I worry that the use of 'alt-right' crosses into source cherry-picking.
1543:: what the NYT says about Garrison in the body of the article is a lot more measured than the headline outright calling him alt-right). But I think the balance of sources say that his comics are popular with the alt-right and not that he's alt-right himself.
1479:, which falsely claims that Trump won the election, similarly has nothing to do with libertarianism and is, instead, Trump cultism. Self-identification is given little or no credence on Knowledge (XXG) - instead, we look at what high-quality sources say.
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You can't seriously want to ignore that the overwhelming majority of the sources on the page use "libertarian" or "pro-Trump", regardless of recency. Your personal opinion of the content does not justify selectively representing sources to inject bias.
1240:, I'm pretty sure that someone doesn't need to be on the extreme right to support Trump, unless half the US population are suddenly 'alt-right'. Trying to tag anyone remotely right-leaning as such seems more like what you'd expect from RationalWiki -
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use it - and it's not difficult to see why. Garrison's self-identification notwithstanding, his cartoon output during the Trump administration has very little or nothing to do with "libertarianism" and everything to do with Trump hero worship.
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I have replaced the second source with one which does support the label, thank you for that correction. We should wait for other editor's to weigh in on the alt-right, conservative, or pro-Trump choice so that a consensus can be reached.
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The alt-right claimed that such caravans were funded by George Soros, as seen in this nativist cartoon by the libertarian cartoonist Ben
Garrison, long a favorite of alt-right provocateurs such as Alex Jones, Mike Cernovich, and Milo
1475:, for example, is the opposite of "libertarian" - a philosophy which generally opposes mob violence and supports strict adherence to the rule of law. Here, Garrison celebrates the lawless Capitol rioters and depicts them as heroic.
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It should be noted that sources for "alt right" were only dug up once I'd complained about "far right" being unsourced, which is why these are more recent than those used in the rest of the article. Other recent pieces, such as
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I agree that's the consensus, and don't have any bones with that, but is editing the label actually an admin action? Does that mean if another admin changed it, and you changed it back again that would be wheel warring?
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to elements of the alt-right. Much of this is confounded by the fact that the artist's work has been repeatedly edited by third parties to imply support for positions which
Garrison publicly rejects (see
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If you think you can get a consensus for "libertarian," you're welcome to open an RFC. But there are three editors expressing support for "alt-right," and you are the only person objecting at this point.
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Wrong. Birdzilla is not the only one objecting to this point. I am, too. And if anyone else who is opposed to the alt-right label wants to put their names on this talk page, they are welcome to do so.
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You claim to have 3v1 here, yet multiple users have attempted to remove the problem phrase from the lead while users like yourself consistently revert without any real effort to discuss. Indeed,
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I have added "alt-right" with some references from reliable sources, I feel that BirdZilla raised a point and this should have been referenced in the article and not just reverted.
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After being discovered by the worst of the web, Ben
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It looks more like a newer editor tried to go through the motions to fix this article, yet was promptly pushed out and quit
Knowledge (XXG) altogether. That's not a good look.
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also makes it clear that his work is still being maliciously edited. I maintain that trying to inject "far right" and "alt right" is an exercise in political cherry-picking.
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This last one is helpful context, because it supports that we cannot accurately rely on his opposition to the labeled in 2015. His views have changed, and so have sources.
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Ben
Garrison has been diagnosed with covid-19. Should this information be added? Is it considered notable or relevant? Is there a Knowledge (XXG) policy on this issue?
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on 16 February 2022 by an IP editor. The sources clearly say alt-right and the consensus here was for alt-right. I am restoring the consensus term as an admin action.
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With that kinda of attitude any objectivity goes out of the window. Knowledge (XXG) needs to reflect what reliable sources agree on, not your personal politics. -
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There's some material in the lead that's not in the body and that probably should be moved there (some may still have a summary in the lead of course per
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What a ridiculous and outright blatant lie to put in an article about something. Alt-right means neonazi, Ben
Garrison is an eccentric Libretarian.
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Note that the OP, another single purpose account, was topic banned from recent American Politics and stopped editing, at least under that account.
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1314:"Benjamin R. Garrison (born 1957) is an American alt-right political cartoonist and artist." That is not a lede to an encyclopedia article.
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use 'pro-Trump' or 'conservative' as their descriptor, should this not be the consensus description which is used in the lead? -
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Alt-right seems the clear choice here, given the direction of his cartooning and the recency of the "alt-right" sources.
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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Alt-right cartoonist Ben Garrison had his invitation rescinded after misogynistic and anti-Semitic cartoons surfaced
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would also be acceptible. This is common in recent news sources. Looking in Google Books, I also found these:
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may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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has rules and rushing to get the content on the page isn’t one of them. Thanks for the post.
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https://gizmodo.com/anti-vaccine-cartoonist-ben-garrison-says-hes-got-covid-1847749901
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Not sure about "far-right" for the moment, that would probably require more sources.
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —
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had no argument beyond personal opinion as well. Perhaps an RFC is a good idea.
1215:, I think his homoerotic drawings of Trump don't leave a lot of room for doubt.
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He is not far right and very few sources characterize him this way
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The article calls him conservative now, which is more accurate.
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The article seems to have settled on the "Conservative" label.
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It appears there are other sources available as well.
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638:Get involved
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359:project page
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25:Ben Garrison
19:This is the
1958:Doug Weller
1903:Generikuser
1861:) has made
1803:the label.
1682:Feral House
1672:Krulos, Tea
1541:WP:HEADLINE
703:work groups
298:Start-class
148:free images
31:not a forum
2128:Categories
1516:This piece
1438:this piece
1096:designated
1047:designated
552:photograph
394:this draft
1820:Pro-Trump
1800:Alt-right
1773:Alt-right
1658:March 11,
1627:Far-right
1623:Alt-right
1579:alt-right
1563:North8000
1520:BirdZilla
1512:pro-Trump
1460:Alt-right
1446:BirdZilla
1398:BirdZilla
1365:BirdZilla
1298:BirdZilla
1284:BirdZilla
1255:BirdZilla
1242:BirdZilla
1213:BirdZilla
1200:BirdZilla
1164:BirdZilla
1132:BirdZilla
1109:, or any
1060:, or any
499:Biography
432:Biography
266:libellous
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2063:X-Editor
1909:re-added
1890:X-Editor
1874:X-Editor
1859:contribs
1824:Bwmdjeff
1740:Grayfell
1696:11 March
840:Politics
831:politics
781:Politics
701:Related
584:Creators
409:contribs
399:Onel5969
226:deletion
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2028:Sgerbic
2002:Neonate
1992:WP:LEAD
1897:changed
1836:Agreed
1012:on the
867:on the
688:on the
154:WP refs
142:scholar
1930:(talk)
1805:Inund8
661:Comics
633:comics
579:Comics
304:scale.
234:delete
126:Google
1997:Paleo
1994:). —
1785:Nsk92
1584:AlanS
1270:typo?
1266:help!
1228:typo?
1224:help!
556:added
548:image
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
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1986:Lead
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1545:Loki
1524:talk
1508:this
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1500:this
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1468:Time
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1086:The
1041:The
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488:and
403:talk
232:was
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
1925:Fir
1922:een
1919:rgr
1916:Eve
1755:meh
1394:JzG
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1260:Guy
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