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Hitler taking over all of Europe would be a permanent threat to democracy. In 1943, he adopted a stance toward large-scale warfare called "relative political pacifism": "War was always a great evil, but in some particularly extreme circumstances, it may be the lesser of two evils."" and on the article 'Russell's political views' it says "he supported the policy of appeasement; but by 1940 he acknowledged that to preserve democracy, Hitler had to be defeated. This same reluctant value compromise was shared by his acquaintance A.A. Milne.". It seems to be the consensus on the literature published about
Russell by routledge that such changes happened in 1940, yet it is not described as such in the initial quote.
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established in the first few sentences. As in the body of the article itself, the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources. Apart from basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article.
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3439:. You are right, it doesn't say that it has to "reflect the opening sentence of the article", or even that it should do so. Perhaps it's just my experience that in most cases it usually does. Yes, the main requirement is for it to be short. But I don't think it's a case of "the shorter the better". The template says "
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paragraph in particular, and especially the first sentence, are supposed to (a) tell the reader what is notable about the subject, and (b) get the reader's interest. Instead the first paragraph is a cure for insomnia. It should specifically mention the things that are currently mentioned in the second paragraph.
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each article's subject as briefly and naturally as possible. This is naturally distinct from the purpose of an article's introductory sentence, which generally hews closer to beginning a definition of the article's subject. In this instance, both versions discussed seem perfectly suited for the task.
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Computer science: This field of study is mentioned in only one place in the article, in the See Also section. As with artificial intelligence, we cannot bring up computer science in the lead paragraphs until and unless we have established in the body of the article that
Russell made an acknowledged
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Probably "British philosopher, mathematician and logician (1872-1970)" will make it under the wire, just barely, but I don't see anything wrong with "British philosopher and logician (1872-1970)", either. For readers who actually need a short description, e.g. to distinguish
Russell from some other
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is discussed in the Early Career section, so it can certainly be mentioned in the lead paragraphs, even in the first paragraph. I would draw your attention, however, to the fact that "logic" appeared twice in the first paragraph and four times in the second paragraph before the trim. Could this be
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I added back logic and set theory, but removed linguistics and cognitive science. Regarding the branches of analytic philosopy, it looks to me from the cited source that he indeed made contributions in these branches, but we have to provide more explicit support for that in the sections about his
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The bold thing for me to do would have been to just add back logic and set theory, and maybe one or more of the branches of philosophy (I haven't looked at them more closely). But I am not a
Russell expert, and I wanted to see if other editors would want to argue about this, and also, I have been
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The larger problem is that the whole first paragraph is a dud. A dry recitation of one-word descriptions of
Russell's occupations and fields of study does not tell the reader why he was notable, and does not describe anything he did that was notable. The lead paragraphs generally, and the first
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It isn't reasonable to expect editors to search through the edit history of an article in order to start or contribute to a discussion. I have searched edit histories myself, but it is thankless work with paltry rewards. Thanks, therefore, for bringing this argument to the talk page, and please
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In the article if says "and initially supported appeasement against Adolf Hitler's Nazi
Germany, before changing his view in 1943" but elsewhere it says "In 1940, he changed his appeasement view that avoiding a full-scale world war was more important than defeating Hitler. He concluded that Adolf
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The average
Knowledge visit is a few minutes long. The lead is the first thing most people will read upon arriving at an article, and may be the only portion of the article that they read. It gives the basics in a nutshell and cultivates interest in reading on—though not by teasing the reader or
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It is very reasonable to expect editors to search through the edit history of an article when they are making multiple reverts on well explained edits. This user felt the need to start this discussion only after I reverted their revert, and they had prior to that reverted multiple appropriately
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So I really don't know what was so desperately wrong with the original. Or why my reverts were deemed "reckless". It seems we're not allowed to describe him as a "mathematician" in the short description, as that's covered by "logician". But we can still describe him as a "mathematician" in the
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career, before we can bring them up in the first paragraph. Note, by the way, that the cited source is an encyclopedia (the
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy). We aren't supposed to be citing other encyclopedias, since we ourselves are an encyclopedia; we should be using secondary sources.
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does not say that the short description has to "reflect the opening sentence of the article", or even that it should do so. The main requirement is that it be short. A rough-and-ready test for adequate shortness, for the existing version of the article, is to get into the search box and type
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The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies. The notability of the article's subject is usually
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with the edit summary "Because these are the areas that he is most well-known of. Don't dilute the focus of the article with so many qualifiers". I'm not sure some of the key areas of
Russell's work can simply be discarded from the lead so easily. What do other editors think? Thanks
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of a
Knowledge article or of another namespace page is a concise explanation of the scope of the page. These descriptions appear in Knowledge mobile and some desktop searches, and help users identify the desired article. When viewing an article, some mobile
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I am not making multiple reverts on well explained edits. I only want to get, and give, advice on the use of wikilinks and on the short description for this article. If you want my sympathy or assistance, you'll have to explain to me what you have in mind.
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is discussed in the Early career section, so it can certainly be mentioned in the lead paragraphs, even in the first paragraph. In the Early career section, could it clarify things to rearrange the text to explicitly call Russell's paradox a set-theoretic
3167:, I wonder could you offer a response about your recent edits to the short description? I had assumed that, in general, the short description should reflect the opening sentence of the article. Is there any reason why this should not apply here? Thanks.
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You get the idea? The first paragraph is not the place to make unsubstantiated claims about Russell. Everything in the lead paragraphs has to be substantiated, with cited sources, in the main body of the article; and everything in the
3340:"Bertra". A list of articles whose names begin with that will appear, along with their short descriptions. If the short description of an article gets truncated on this list, it's too long. As I write this, the short description of
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3291:, I today reverted just two of your edits, on different things, once each. And you immediately came to my Talk page and accused me of being in an "edit war"? My last previous edits here were on 13 February 2024‎.
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Only if you tell me how any of the above improves this article about Bertrand Russell on Knowledge.org for anyone on the World Wide Web who seeks information about the philosopher and logician Bertrand Russell?
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Artificial intelligence: This field of study is not mentioned anywhere in this article. Thus, it is certainly a no-no to mention it in the lead paragraphs, let alone in the first paragraph.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the
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Russell spoke German (he expected his conversation with Vladimir Lenin to be in German rather than English). I don't know where to add this information to the page.
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needs a reassessment of its Importance level, as it has little to do with atheism and is instead an article about anti-theist/anti-religious actions of governments.
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paragraph in particular, has in addition to be crucial to the article, as it may be the only thing someone reads when they (first) visit this article.
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I'll try to say something constructive to get a discussion started. I will be traveling for a while and unable to follow up on this.
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How about just answering the questions in my two edit summaries, before slapping an "edit warring" warning at my Talk page? Thanks.
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or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the
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to infer from these two facts that Russell made a contribution to computer science. For us to state that, we must have a
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kind of busy in real life, so I held off. But I will get to it by and by, unless somebody gets there first.
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write appropriate descriptions of your reasoning, rather than just waving your hands at the edit summary.
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hinting at what follows. It should be written in a clear, accessible style with a neutral point of view.
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by checking whether ] has been added to atheism-related articles – and, where it hasn't, adding it.
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contribution to computer science. By the way, I have to be skeptical of the entry for Russell in
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Many thanks for your explanation and suggestions. I agree we should centre any discussion on
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Add Atheism info box to all atheism related talk pages (use {{WikiProject Atheism}} or see
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to your page ({{User WikiProject Atheism}} or {{User WPA2}}) and attract potential members.
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I will try to contribute to this discussion myself, but I may be delayed by "real life".
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Try to expand stubs. Ideas and theories about life, however, are prone to generating
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So do you think any of those should be replaced in the first paragraph? Thanks.
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are most often used in situations adjacent to this one, i.e. when weighing the
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is that they fall under the category of "common occupations", mentioned in
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stating that Russell made an acknowledged contribution to computer science.
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If you would like to participate, you can edit this article and visit the
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opening sentence. I'm obviously having a problem with the logic here.
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The purpose of a short description is to aid readers in navigation by
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For more information and how you can help, click the link opposite:
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By the way, I am surprised that the lead paragraphs do not mention
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Perhaps in "Education"? Do you have any better source(s)? Thanks.
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as well, and I recommend reading the article about the logician
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defines it as a being restricted to America in the 21st century.
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I am sure his ignorant antisemitism is mentioned somewhere ...
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Regarding wikilinks, I have made many edits where I cited
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Use a "standard" layout for atheism-related articles (see
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High-importance biography (science and academia) articles
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Cognitive science: Same as with Artificial intelligence.
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is getting truncated, so it's too long. Now you know.
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Thanks for that critique. I was expecting a reply from
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doesn't have a category for fields of study, such as
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Let's look at some of the wikilinks trimmed in turn.
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of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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323:April 8, 2008
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123:Find sources:
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110:Verifiability
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52:Learn to edit
49:
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41:
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37:
36:
32:
26:
22:
18:
17:
3500:
3497:says this: "
3482:
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3405:
3389:MOS:OVERLINK
3373:MOS:OVERLINK
3357:MOS:OVERLINK
3354:
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3332:
3204:and perhaps
3163:
3124:— Preceding
3119:
3116:
3076:
3048:
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2900:
2871:
2868:Lead section
2854:92.21.84.208
2848:— Preceding
2845:
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2824:
2786:
2778:
2764:
2312:Early career
2224:Section name
2170:
2130:
2065:
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1938:
1934:
1927:False choice
1913:
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1804:layout style
1796:
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1621:project page
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1597:
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1351:
1310:
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1242:
1218:
1170:
1099:Top-priority
1098:
1058:
1024:Top‑priority
899:Epistemology
867:Philosophers
825:
793:
783:
745:Contemporary
721:Epistemology
713:Philosophers
682:
662:
640:
600:
475:
435:
388:WikiProjects
371:
341:
328:
310:
309:
291:
290:
285:May 25, 2007
272:
271:
259:Not promoted
252:
247:July 2, 2005
217:reassessment
215:
200:
199:
195:
171:
165:
157:
150:
144:
138:
132:
122:
94:
19:This is the
3393:mathematics
3369:philosopher
1941:this merge
1884:Agnosticism
1384:Los Angeles
1074:Mathematics
1065:mathematics
1021:Mathematics
883:Metaphysics
717:Metaphysics
616:Linguistics
607:linguistics
553:Linguistics
212:renominated
148:free images
31:not a forum
3548:Categories
3401:set theory
3043:due weight
2616:References
2503:Philosophy
2475:Scholastic
2387:Later life
1860:Watch the
1851:neologisms
1790:to-do list
1628:Quick help
1444:California
1434:California
1429:U.S. state
1379:California
801:Philosophy
790:philosophy
708:Philosophy
528:parameter.
335:Not listed
316:Not listed
3206:this page
3113:Languages
2630:Citations
2563:Education
2297:Education
2253:Biography
2146:Socialism
2137:socialism
2093:Socialism
2041:Sociology
2032:sociology
1988:Sociology
1190:Biography
1126:Biography
376:is rated
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
3495:WP:SDESC
3473:Remsense
3377:logician
3365:logician
3126:unsigned
3049:Remsense
2944:WP:SYNTH
2931:paradox?
2894:MOS:LEAD
2850:unsigned
2825:183 days
2779:Archives
2750:155,534
2590:See also
2518:Religion
1819:info box
1688:Be civil
741:Analytic
737:Language
297:Delisted
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2747:155,534
2584:16,812
2541:10,966
2533:Society
2496:21,046
2425:15,336
2410:12,891
2395:14,100
2365:12,778
2260:90,947
2247:12,161
2232:Section
2173:on the
2068:on the
1949:Atheism
1939:against
1867:Always
1826:Atheism
1770:userbox
1761:be bold
1735:history
1600:on the
1573:Atheism
1564:atheism
1536:Atheism
1471:on the
1354:on the
1327:Chicago
1320:or the
1318:Chicago
1272:Chicago
1101:on the
828:on the
733:Science
643:on the
478:on the
378:B-class
237:Process
154:WPÂ refs
142:scholar
3399:, and
3367:, and
2739:6,341
2726:1,948
2711:1,307
2696:3,557
2623:1,117
2581:16,812
2571:3,646
2538:10,966
2526:2,311
2511:3,264
2483:1,945
2453:3,038
2440:5,474
2407:12,891
2392:14,100
2380:5,794
2362:12,778
2350:2,633
2335:7,132
2320:5,805
2305:1,434
2290:7,455
2275:5,575
2244:12,161
2234:total
1901:Expand
1890:Create
1768:Add a
1723:To do
526:|auto=
384:scale.
278:Listed
240:Result
126:Google
3493:Yes,
3397:logic
3381:logic
2959:first
2744:Total
2736:6,341
2723:1,948
2708:1,307
2603:Notes
2568:3,646
2523:2,311
2508:3,264
2489:Views
2480:1,945
2437:5,474
2422:9,862
2377:5,794
2347:2,633
2332:7,132
2317:5,805
2302:1,434
2287:7,455
2272:5,575
2240:(Top)
2229:count
1929:into
1745:purge
1740:watch
915:Logic
725:Logic
520:by a
365:This
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
3531:talk
3516:talk
3499:The
3455:talk
3435:and
3422:talk
3312:talk
3297:talk
3280:talk
3265:talk
3247:talk
3232:talk
3218:talk
3202:here
3192:talk
3184:here
3173:talk
3150:talk
3134:talk
3103:talk
3084:talk
3029:talk
3014:talk
2999:talk
2985:talk
2967:talk
2883:talk
2874:here
2858:talk
2683:383
2668:486
2653:903
2597:489
2556:819
2468:553
2227:Byte
2165:High
2060:High
1943:here
1842:and
1810:and
1759:and
1730:edit
1592:High
1179:and
820:High
470:High
234:Date
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
3416:.
2693:302
2680:383
2665:486
2638:29
2620:185
2610:26
2594:489
2553:819
2465:553
2450:540
1937:or
1935:for
1463:Low
1431:of
1346:Low
1093:Top
635:Mid
522:bot
176:TWL
3550::
3533:)
3518:)
3510:"
3478:‥
3457:)
3424:)
3395:,
3363:,
3314:)
3299:)
3282:)
3267:)
3249:)
3234:)
3220:)
3194:)
3175:)
3152:)
3136:)
3105:)
3097:"
3086:)
3031:)
3016:)
3001:)
2987:)
2969:)
2885:)
2860:)
2798:,
2794:,
2790:,
2650:34
2635:29
2607:26
2493:40
2257:14
1857:).
1846:).
1814:).
1806:,
1623:.
1515:).
1382::
1251:).
1227:).
1133:/
1129::
847:/
743:/
739:/
735:/
731:/
727:/
723:/
719:/
715:/
711::
560:/
556::
497:/
156:)
54:;
3529:(
3514:(
3483:论
3453:(
3420:(
3310:(
3295:(
3278:(
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