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expecting. This is actually fine with me... I nominated it for deletion more to highlight the problem with lack of citations than to actually get rid of the article. I find that often the threat of deletion inspires people to work on the article. Unfortunately, I don't think my plan worked. The problem still exists. There continues to be a distinct lack of citations here. Looking forward.... I have added a bunch of citation request tags where I see a crying need for sources. Hopefully someone will add them. I will wait about a month, and see if anyone actually does so. If it looks as if someone is working on finding citations, great... if not, I will start removing unsourced statements and sections per
Knowledge policy.
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with a very childlike faith, and I do suppose that's part of why I laugh about it, but most of it's just an aspect of common sense. I'll also admit to a small bit of immaturity on my part. I'm not the most mature person when it comes to intellectual debates (not arguments). That immaturity might also have contributed to my laughter. Although, maturity has nothing to do with intelligence. But you know what? There will probably be a million things we'll never know, like whether or not Jesus Christ married Mary
Magdalene (even though she was as old as his mother), or whether or not there's a heaven or a hell. I suppose that is until we die, we won't know. So maybe we will find out the truth one day, won't we?
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their accusation seriously) versus the more modern pseudo-Christian groups that make the same claims, yet without any historical record of their own to validate them. The Mormon, Muslim, Jehovah
Witness, and Jesus Only groups have made strong claims, and I found that their claims do not show any historical claim, and in fact they confuse people searching FOR biblical changes in the early periods.
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570:, which was referenced. Doesn't make sense to put it back. Much of the NPOVing that was done was also valid. I've reverted it back to the latest improved state. It can only be expected that many of these theories will have their own articles. This article in this case should link to these articles; the context should be clear enough. Or create a category if you are worried about losing context.
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some material to another article. I just don't want the context summarilly deleted. However, my goal is to expand this article to include all sorts of Bible conspiracy theories, especially those that deal with Jesus and his supposed wife, Jesus and his supposed childrem, Freemasons, etc. There are many such Bible conspiracy theories!
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Last call folks... I need some citations and references. It's been two months since I first raised this issue (and two weeks since my last request) and still most of this article is unreferenced. I will start removing unreferenced text later this weekend. If I remove something you feel needs to be
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A Bible conspiracy theory is any conspiracy theory that posits that much of what is known about the Bible is a deception created to suppress some secret, ancient truth. Some of these theories claim that Jesus really had a wife and children, or that the
Knights Templar had secret information about the
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This article has a serious issue with the lack of sources. It does not surprise me that someone somewhere has come up with each of these theories, but none of them are cited. The only source listed in the references section is the bible (and that only indirectly)... the rest is more along the lines
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Mustafaa, I am in total agreement with you that most people in the middle-east do not believe any such thing. I never imagined that the present text of the article would lead to such an impression. As such, I am certainly open to you and others reworing and rewriting the material in here, even moving
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needs work; in particular, it needs to distinguish more carefully between the fact that certain books, held by some sects to be divinely inspired, were rejected when the canon was compiled, and the allegation that these books were suppressed out of sexism or fear rather than an honest belief in their
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I came here looking for a list of the "Biblical
Conspiracy Theories" specifically those that involve serendipitous "discoveries" of OT Books that helped OT Kings cement their "Right To Rule" as well as the Pauline & Constantine ones, and to see others referenced to kick start research into those
1476:
Well, it has now been over half a year since I requested citations for a lot of the material in the "New
Testiment" section... and no citations have been given. It is one thing to say that "according to Author X, such and such is true"... but we need to include a citation to where Author X actually
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And to anonymous user-dude, I didn't say "conspiracy theories started with Dan Brown" did I? Well the answer is no. Conspiracy theory is a very broad term, this article is talking about BIBLICAL conspiracy theories, not just conspiracy theories in general. What I said was that Dan Brown invented the
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In my interpretation of
Knowledge principles everything has to be presented neutrally and Knowledge itself can not take sides (non-neutrality in the title is very bad). Any article is free to cite who and how many people believe X is "non-mainstream" but an article's title is different and requires
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The Knight's
Templar were a bunch of European based war-mongers with some serious greed issues who were rumored to worship pagan demons. They didn't care about God, history or theology, they were in the Crusades for the wealth and power. If anyone had information about the life of Christ, it wasn't
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That's because that is not a common conspiracy theory. Constantine had nothing to do with compiling the canonical scripture in the Bible as we know it today. That notion was first and only proposed by Dan Brown in his book The Da Vinci Code, in which it was a plot device he used to explain certain
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Honestly I think most conspiracies are just ridiculously hilarious and overbearing examples of suspicion and paranoia thought up by a bunch of malignant intellectuals with nothing better to do because their jobs are terribly boring. But on the other side of things, I am a Bible believing
Christian
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Unfortunately, any knowledgeable person can see at a glance that it has very significant chronology problems. No Roman emperor wanted to touch
Christianity with a ten-foot pole until after the reign of Diocletian (i.e. after 300 A.D.), by which time the traditions of Christianity were already in
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I separated the text in the section entitled "The Bible As A Lie: The New Testament" so that the David Icke text and the Joseph Atwill text are not mixed up together. As it stood, it was not representative of Atwill's writing in Caesar's Messiah. I left Icke's text alone, as I cannot comment on
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OK... I have cut those things that were not even remotely referenced ... the article is basically gutted, so it will need some major clean up. I have left some material (primarily in the New Testiment section) where at least an author of a theory has been mentioned in the text, and where, thus,
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I've added my own two cents to the article, I wanted to clear up any confusion regarding the difference between the ancient groups alleging Bible conspiracy and corruption, like the Essene Nazoreans and Gnosticism (which although i do not adhere to those groups, I do find a strong reason to take
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As far as picking and choosing goes... the only criteria I used was: were there any citations listed to back the statements. If there were, I left the material, if not I cut it. I made a judgment call if the article mentioned an author as that seemed to indicate at least the possibility of a
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The article does say that only "some proponents" of mythicism are conspiracists. I would like to see more emphasis on the fact that many are not, particularly including the handful of reputable and well credentialed scholars and scholarly lay people who support mythicism. Doug Shaver 02:03, 8
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As for the wiki links... no I didn't check them. The information in THIS article needs to be cited. If there are a ton of citations at linked articles then it should have been easy to add citations to THIS article during the two months that I have been asking for them. Feel free to add the
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Ok... the AfD debate resulted in a 'Keep'. People feel this topic is notable, and even though virtually none of the material is backed by any source they want an article on this. That is a typical result for just about any page with the words "conspiracy theory" in it... and about what I was
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I'm sure that I'm beating a dead horse here, but isn't the very notion of conspiracy theories going to make it difficult to find sources? I understand referencing is the cornerstone of Knowledge, but I feel we've got to be a little loose here; I came to this page hoping to see a list of
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notion that Constantine had anything to do with compiling the canonical Bible, and you should try some researching yourself if you actually think he did. Constantine never touched the canonical Bible. Say what you mean if you want people to take your counter-points seriously, or shut up.
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When I first saw it, I was a little bothered by the inclusion of Earl Doherty's work in the "further reading" section. It seems to suggest that his theory is an example of the genre being discussed. Doherty does not, in any useful sense, advocate any kind of conspiracy theory.
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there is at least a potential that it could be referenced ... but these need actual citations to stay (simply claiming an author says something is not acceptable... we need a citation to where he/she says it). If they are not cited in a few weeks I will remove them as well.
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Barbara Thiering does allege that Jesus married and had children by Mary Magdalene, but I don't believe she suggests that there was a conspiracy to keep it secret. Instead, she says that the method of correctly reading the narrative recorded in the New Testament was
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Well... given the problems with citations mentioned above... perhaps the only way to get some work done on this article is the threat of deletion. I am more than willing to withdraw the nom if it looks as if some citation work is being done. Please review
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In fact, it was not Bernard who founded the cistercian order, as the article says. He was one of the most important thinkers of it, he was from one of the early generations of cistercian monks, but he wasn't the founder - the founder was Robert of Molesme.
499:"(in fact the accepted belief in most Churches is that she was the "only" disciple)." This seems to be saying that modern chruches believe the twelve disciples were fake, which they do not. Can someone re-write that bullet point to clarify the intent?
190:, a collaborative effort to improve Knowledge's coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the
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that supports their religious viewpoint. These groups have published their own Bibles that differ from Bibles used by other Christian groups. In addition these groups publish new books, which they hold are divinely inspired
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Did you even try checking the Wiki links in the article, most of which were already referenced, or did you just ignore them? Seems like you picked and chose your way thru, will revert the entire article.--
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I notice, however, that the section on the Knights Templar does not actually discuss them having any "secret information about the true descendants of Jesus". In fact, the section does not really contain
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A proposal has ben put forward to require renaming of all articles that have the phrase "conspiracy theory" in their title, due to what proponents claim is the inherent POV of that phrase. Please see
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says this. I will give it a bit more time (perhaps a week), but if no citations are forthcoming, I am going to delete the uncited material. In the meantime, I have added a refimprove tag.
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place. Furthermore, the Roman approach to rebellious Jewish populations was always to apply massve military might with maximum brutality, leading to extreme massacres and enslavements...
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Actually, I would like someone to reseach most of the stuff in this article... there is a distinct lack of citation. If Dan Brown didn't come up with the Constantine stuff, then who did?
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Happy to give people a chance... but considering that I first raised my concerns about the lack of sources in this article last FEBRUARY (more than a month and a half ago) ... I think I
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Valliant and his co-author, Warren Fahy, argue that Christianity was created by Roman emperors as a tool to pacify rebellious Jewish populations and integrate them into the Roman Empire
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This article doesn't seem to mention the common conspiracy theories of the Roman emperor Constantine supposedly imposing changes in the Bible onto the early 4th-century A.D. Church.
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See? No reverts? There you go. I am happy to oblige. Now that we all understand each other, we see where the others are going. Everything seems to be working out Ok.
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It seems quite appropriate to me to refer to a theory alleging that a conspiracy occurred as a "conspiracy theory", what else? There is nothing biased about that.
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I don't think this is an entirely accurate summary of the current scholarship. Could the editor add the works he/she used, and cite the claims to their authors?
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If it is, as it says, not a Bible conspiracy theory, why is it in the Bible conspiracy theory article? Especially when it is discussed at another article?
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topics, but apparently Wiki does not consider such topics "notable", definitely not "the suppository of all wisdom" to quote Tony Abbott, Australian PM.
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In this case, it refers to things which are conspicuously not supported by the consensus of mainstream scholarship, so it doesn't have to be neutral...
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dealing with conspiracy theories. If people in these groups have conspiracy theories about the Bible, they need to be explained in much moer detail.
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material back WITH citations, but I will cut it again if citations are not provided. I am tired of being a voice in the wilderness on this issue.
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historical inconsistencies. The theory itself can be disproven by any 1st century historian who does not have his head stuck in his own rear end.
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733:) assert that the Bible was deliberately modified (or at least carelessly allowed to be copied sloppily) to edit out what they consider to be the
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for a reason ... I think we should try to make it as thorough as possible, even without proper citation when necessary. But that's just me.
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It's a question of political correctness. If you want to understand it better, you could investigate on what very unwelcome persons such as
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I know this article needs work, but why laugh at this article? Is it because it contradicts your beliefs? - Greg - 12:01PM - 23 April 2007
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presents a controversial theory that aligns somewhat with the idea of a deliberate reinterpretation of Hebrew religion by Roman elites.
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RK, before you massively reverted, please read the changes that were. Lots of the material *did* in fact go to another article, see
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You are sooooo incorrect ManofRenown87, try some researching. Conspiracies didn't start with Dan Brown. He just popularised them.--
940:. I think this shows how little attention is paid by some editors to current scholarship, and even to obvious wikipedia articles.
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given people a chance. So... while I will give you yet more time... please move this up in your priority. The clock is ticking.
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Should the KJV-only movement be added to this page? It's a conspiracy theory that claims every new translation is corrupted.
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It would be inappropiate to put discrediting in an article's title, such things have to be cited and put inside the article.
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true descendants of Jesus; some claim that there was a secret movement to censor books that truly belonged in the Bible, etc.
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We don't have to be "neutral" between the hypothesis that the earth is flat and the hypothesis that the earth is not flat.
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citations to who came up with the theory) or the section should be removed (along with the mention in the intro.) Thanks
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WOW!!! Nice rant. Did you clear that one right up, sources? More like Opinion. Cause I said so...nanny nanny boo boo!! --
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618:"the Council of Athanasius (AD 367) and the Council of Carthage (AD 397) mostly fixed the currently recognized canon."
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Bible conspiracy theories form the cornerstone of some relatively modern Christian religious movements. Most notably
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related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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645:" This is not true regarding Mormons. They use the King James version of the Bible, not "their own Bible". --
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All right, since no one else wants to do it, I took a guess as to what you meant and rewrote it for clarity.
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them. And if they did claim to know some terrible secret, what reason would anyone have to believe them?
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of "footnoted commentary". Please, locate reliable sources to back up the information in this article.
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Well, since no one has responded, I will delete the material. Feel free to add it back with citations.
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You're welcome, because frankly, a resounding laugh is all I have to say about this entire article.
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These groups have published their own Bibles that differ from Bibles used by other Christian groups.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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806:(which some suggest was deliberately hidden, often in order to hide vital information concerning
863:(in fact a fascist) say; Serrano has also written about "The Visits of the Queen of Sheba" and
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about a Bible conspiracy as the article defines it. This information should either be added (
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526:. check it out, add input. most of all help me get it running (I'm kinda amature over here)--
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What does it matter if Serrano was/is a fascist? Does that make him wrong? Or just biased?--
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Bible-related conspiracies; what I found was a laughably underdeveloped article.
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You have to give us a chance. Some of us are busy doing other things. Thanks. --
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I have proposed that articles titled with "conspiracy theory" be renamed at
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The phrase "conspiracy theory" is not a neutral way of describing something
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to introduce legalism into Christianity and undermine the doctrine of the
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Well now Bluebaer, aren't we being pecular...um..er...particular?--
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in the article, you can return it once you have located a source.
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Deletion done. If you wish to return the material, please do so
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917:"has been considered fraudulent by a majority of scholars..."
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LOL ok I just skimmed over this. Thanks for the heads up. --
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1676:"Creating Christ: How Roman Emperors Invented Christianity,"
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I've specified my requests for citation with {{fact}} tags.
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had utilized to maintain control over it's perishoners).
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Creating Christ: How Roman Emperors Invented Christianity
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I think we should try to make it as thorough as possible
923:"...now considered genuine by a majority of scholars..."
392:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
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RE: "differ from Bibles used by other Christian groups"
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Some say it was thought to have been whispered that...
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trying to get a conspiracy based wiki up and running.
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phenomena). Some have even shown curiosity over the
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LDS, but that is not true for the Non-LDS Mormons.--
275:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
101:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
1348:, please direct all comments to the proposal's
715:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
792:Similarly, there is a mini conspiracy in the
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1561:even without proper citation when necessary
936:You didn't even bother to look up Sophia -
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1742:Mid-importance Alternative Views articles
664:Regardless, it is not specific enough! --
536:Lost books of the Bible conspiracy theory
518:proper place for conspiracies to run free
524:http://meta.wikimedia.org/Wikiconspiracy
495:Jesus, Mary Magdalene and the Holy Grail
894:Maybe tainted would be a better word.--
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200:Knowledge:WikiProject Alternative Views
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1747:WikiProject Alternative Views articles
1737:Start-Class Alternative Views articles
1273:removing statements without references
1099:Information about Bernard of Clairvaux
486:Talk:Bible conspiracy theory/Archive 1
203:Template:WikiProject Alternative Views
1592:-- 13:58, 21 July 2014 60.242.247.177
7:
1727:Low-importance Christianity articles
1563:"... absolutely NOT. Citations are
1379:an even higher level of neutrality.
386:This article is within the scope of
269:This article is within the scope of
184:This article is within the scope of
95:This article is within the scope of
1142:In the intro this article states:
38:It is of interest to the following
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1346:Knowledge:Conspiracy theory titles
817:, particularly in relation to the
699:From what is written here, we are
596:OK, glad we've cleared that up. -
568:Israeli-Palestinian history denial
115:Knowledge:WikiProject Christianity
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1732:WikiProject Christianity articles
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1472:unreferenced material - continued
462:on March 20, 2007. The result of
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426:This article has been rated as
321:This article has been rated as
304:Template:WikiProject Skepticism
220:This article has been rated as
135:This article has been rated as
1113:what is written about him. --
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1:
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1707:06:27, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
1691:03:19, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
1567:in an article such as this.
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1133:15:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
993:20:20, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
400:and see a list of open tasks.
295:and see a list of open tasks.
187:WikiProject Alternative views
109:and see a list of open tasks.
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1118:19:10, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
1108:David Icke and Joseph atwill
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968:HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
914:"critical scholars think..."
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821:and their connection to the
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531:02:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
480:Archives of older discussion
1617:Earl Doherty: no conspiracy
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681:Knowledge:Conspiracy theory
653:That is correct concerning
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1674:James S. Valliant's book,
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767:It may be worth note that
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432:project's importance scale
409:Template:WikiProject Bible
327:project's importance scale
226:project's importance scale
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141:project's importance scale
1559:"... I totally agree... "
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723:United Pentecostal Church
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683:. A vote is occurring at
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835:information as well. --
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785:(which, of course, the
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1204:Nominated for deletion
813:and the nature of the
731:Oneness Pentecostalism
620:See any flaws here? --
613:Councils and the canon
272:WikiProject Skepticism
28:This article is rated
1626:December 2013 (UTC)
1314:citation being added.
1006:comment was added by
800:, in particular, the
675:Renaming this article
121:Christianity articles
867:provided a forword.
978:Thanks for sharing.
938:Sophia (gnosticism)
796:community over the
727:Jesus-Only doctrine
307:Skepticism articles
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721:), The modern day
34:content assessment
1647:
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381:Bible portal
322:
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103:Christianity
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59:Christianity
40:WikiProjects
1635:Doug Shaver
1036:Constantine
851:Turly-burly
794:Evangelical
740:revelations
501:66.32.95.90
30:Start-class
1716:Categories
1422:zen master
1381:zen master
1354:zen master
1352:, thanks.
1239:Tomtom9041
1195:Tomtom9041
879:Tomtom9041
865:C. G. Jung
762:Armageddon
630:84.57.72.3
510:66.32.7.69
298:Skepticism
289:skepticism
249:Skepticism
192:discussion
1683:GarylynnM
869:Foreigner
815:End-Times
798:Apocrypha
783:Atonement
779:Pharisees
758:Apocrypha
725:(see the
719:Mormonism
1699:AnonMoos
1651:KJV-only
1643:contribs
1631:unsigned
1597:Thiering
1569:Blueboar
1535:Lawofone
1495:Blueboar
1479:Blueboar
1401:AnonMoos
1367:AnonMoos
1320:Blueboar
1291:Blueboar
1280:Blueboar
1260:Blueboar
1226:Blueboar
1215:Blueboar
1174:Blueboar
1164:Blueboar
1156:anything
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1042:AnonMoos
1004:unsigned
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735:theology
666:Alterego
647:Alterego
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460:deletion
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689:Willmcw
430:on the
325:on the
277:science
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139:on the
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1211:WP:ATT
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756:, the
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659:Josiah
622:Wetman
528:Matt D
36:scale.
1602:lost.
1565:vital
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808:Helil
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1703:talk
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760:and
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468:KEEP
466:was
287:and
823:UFO
729:of
701:not
687:. -
422:Low
317:Low
216:Mid
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1718::
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42::
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