Talk:Bicycle wheel - Knowledge (XXG)

509:

more than 200 times (four corners X 50 laps) in little more than two hours. It can make more difference to the final outcome in a given race than the difference in the mass of two representative riders providing that for comparsion the two riders are nearly equal in ability and fitness (as they might well be in any given sanctioned race with very competitive racers), but one is a heavier rider. This is because in such a race a lot of the time you must stay very close to the rider in front of you and if the rider in front of you is the rider of nearly equal ability (but different weight) but now he can accelerate out of the corners using less energy than he did before when compared to you (when you were very nearly equal) due to lighter wheels and rims than you, you will have less effort left compared to him for that final long extremely hard effort when right at the very last the rotational inertia of the wheels can once again make a very important difference, even if it is only a fraction of an inch. The trade off here occurs when the heavier rider begins to experience 'squirrly' behavior or outright failure with rims that are too light and flex in hard cornering or sprints. I think the point for removing the claim that less rotational inertia is not really signifigant or is overstated when compared to the riders mass is a bit harder to prove for the case when climbing, but it looks like the 'number crunchers' have done so.

2216:). In a nutshell, OR is content that is not easily verifiable by potential references. Since no specific content was named as being OR, I'm going to remove that tag, too. We need to be specific with such tags. Saying "There's OR here!" does not cut it. A tagger can't expect from the other authors to figure out what they meant. Also, "it appears that it was written off of personal knowledge of editors" is no problem. Of course we may write from our personal knowledge, *provided* that what we write is referenceable, even if not actually referenced. 74: 53: 921:

hooked edges to prevent the bead wires from pulling out over the edges of the rim. Some have both. Tyre width and depth may differ and still fit the same rim, so we get tyre specifications such as 25-622 and 38-622. All of the traditional tyre sizing systems were based on the outside diameter of the tyre, and so they collapsed into confusion as tyre widths began to change. Maybe I'll go edit now but I can't deal with the entire article at this time -- it is rife with confusion.

2977:, because I highly doubt its content. Whatever the mechanic quoted in the reference witnessed, the explanation must be wrong. Rim diameter does not decrease with tire pressure, at least not noticeably. If rim diameter changed, rim circumference would also need to change. This in turn would require that the rim material would noticeably compress, which it does not. Solid materials, in particular metals, usually do not noticeably compress with pressure. 2206:. The only specific criticism offered was that Sheldon Brown was a "singular source". Brown is still heavily referenced, but the majority of references points elsewhere. Also, Brown is in my view a valid secondary source. Brown didn't invent bicycle wheels or published research papers about them, he just writes about them, and references other, more primary sources. The {{howto}} and {{single source}} have since been removed, so those are resolved. 1656:

included in the discussion that covers both definitions. Pay particular attention to the 4 paragraph posting by "John" who covers exactly what I've been pointing out all along - BOTH definitions - and what they cover in detail. Finally the last post by "Nate" nails what is likely to be the exact reason why you like many people are confused - which simply is that perhaps "dish" was never a good word to use to begin with.

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then this tire almost works. The reference refers to it as a 'tubeless road' and 'tubular clincher' tire. I am interested by the tire but inclined not to cite it as a reference that a tubular tire doesn't contain an inner tube. For the moment the article claims that a tubular 'almost always has an inner tube'. This seems like a fair compromise until we resolve this.

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other is used as a verb, but that seems like a minor point. Finally, you contend that the article, as currently written, does a poor job of making the distinction. That may be true, and I am ready to change it point out better the two definitions in use, but I don't expect to indicate that one is in any way superior to the other. -

2315:

marketeers have recently tried to popularize a fourth designation for the 584 mm tire size! They are trying to get people to call it "27 five." I strongly urge readers to resist this foolish jargon, and to use either the traditional "650B" designation, or, better yet, the internationally-standardized

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The article is composed almost entirely of original research, self published sources and composed like an essay. Of all the sources, it is highly dependent on singular source of personal website of Sheldon Brown which is cited numerous times within the article. The references don't meet the standard

1253:

My guess is that you are not a prolific wheelbuilder like myself - approaching 3000 wheels since 1984 if not already past that - and perhaps that may be what is impeding your interpretation of the glossary entry as well as the wheel building article. Picking up an actual dishing tool - or flipping a

903:

I don't understand how to measure the the diameter of the tire or rim, from the way it is described in the article. Both says smth with "where the tire sits", but exactly where is that? The tire and rim has an overlap if measured from the center of the circle and out. It needs a more precise/explicit

845:

This section is mostly wrong and so are parts of other sections. "26-inch" wheels aren't rigidly 26 inches in diameter. Wheels are best specified by rim bead seat diameter; tires used with the same rim may vary. "26 x 1 3/4" size is nom osly used with very narrow tires. there is a good desciprtion of

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Do not confuse Tufo's 'tubular clincher' tires, designed for clincher rims, with their pure 'tubular' tires, designed for tubular rims. Perhaps the current definition is not worded in the best way possible. It seems that the salient aspect of 'tubular' is that the tire cross section is in the form of

1989:

Just you so know, I made the request to others as I have yet to do an actual Wiki edit and do not want to make a mistake that results in the removal of the excellent diagram that you have in this section of the article. It demonstrates both definitions that are in play to perfection - including the

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is directly and repeatedly refuted by sources so notable that they have their own articles here. On the other hand, I have seen many times that technical terms can be very poorly defined and very reliable sources can be found to support conflicting definitions. If you were to find and provide such a

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To "dish" and "dishing" refers to the act of centering the rim between the outside of the axle lock nuts or end-caps. Either the wheel is dished or it isn't dished. There is no such thing as more dished or less dished. Regardless of extent - a wheel that is not dished is simply off dish. That is

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The construction of a tubular tire is not the point of this article. Since this article references the tubular tyres article we don't need to go into construction details here. I have changed the aricle to discuss the interface between tire and rim contrasting it with a traditional clincher. I am

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The Road Cycling article still talks about a tubular-clincher. The VeloNews article is most definately NOT talking about a tubular-clincher hybrid. This most certainly proves the point that 'not all tubulars have a seperate innertube'. I might prefer that the VeloNews article were used instead of

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to stand up on their own. Certainly not for pure radial buckling. AIUI (from Usenet discussions with Jobst) the importance of torsional stiffness is not that the rim twists, but that this twist then allows a sideways perturbation of the rim and thus leads to a taco (if the thrust line of the "arch"

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Paragraph #8. Clearly and concisely describes the action necessary using the dishing tool as the testing device to center the rim between the lock nuts of the hub axle. Note that there is no distinction made between symmetrical or asymmetrical wheels, nor is the focus on making "dish" as a "bowl"

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In other words, when the original write-up on "Dish" for this article was done, the author failed to note the distinction made by Sheldon Brown between "appearance" of a dish or bowl for disc and rear geared wheels and the "technical" meaning of dish in relation to the centering of bicycle wheels.

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There are more companies than just velocity and campy that make whls without holes in the outer wall. Mavic (CrossMax, XM819 rims, Kyrsium & R-SYS) Shimano (DA road tubeless whls) Falcrum (I am not sure but since they are asian made campagnolo whls I suspect) It is a little hard deciding what

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The bit about rotational inertia being insignificant compared with the riders mass should be removed. Higher rotational inertia of wheels definitely can be easily felt by a rider and makes a significant difference in races such as critirums where you might accelerate from 30 kph to well over 50 kph

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Yes, of course there are more than 3 quantifiable stiffness, and the article does not contradict this. It does assert, based on the available sources, specifically Gavin and Damon, that there are 3 primary stiffness. You are welcome to add additional information. Note that my edit summary for this

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I have never said "one is superior to the other". Learn to read and represent others correctly. I HAVE pointed out as you correctly noted that casual discussions of dish - more so by those who do not actually build wheels - will apply the "appearance" definition to the "technical" side as well.

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I think there is still a bit of unclarity about what constitutes dish or no-dish. Today, due to narrowly spaced and off center hub flanges, along with offset rims, a more precise definition is in order. Dish is the difference in lateral angle of the left and right spokes of a wheel as they enter

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Rolling resistance also is reduced with increasing tire pressure, although the practical benefits become small at pressures significantly above 120 psi for the average bicycle rider. Thinner bicycle tires are lighter and have less wind resistance than wider tires, however, wider tires offer better

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Clincher is a specific type of tire-rim design that is obsolete. What is usually referred to today as a "clincher" is in fact a wire-on or wire-type design. Clinchers have a bead that grips a hooked edge on the rim when the tire is under pressure. Wire-type simply rely on wire tension to offset

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Does the Tufo 'tubular' cited as an example of a tubular without an inner tube truly constitute a tubular tire? If a tubular tire is defined as 'any tire that is designed to work on a tubular rim' It would not work. If tubular tire is defined as 'any tire that is stitched closed to form a torus'

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What I get is that you are trying to make the case that one definition of dish if technically correct and the other is not. However, I have not yet seen any support for that. Shouting and name calling suggest passion, but they do not persuade. You also point out that one is used as a noun and the

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far from where I live and with a poor camera resolution. The only thing I can tell is that if there had been sthg unusual about the wheels, i would probably have noticed that and included it in the image summary. So it seems the wheels were made as they mostly are today - steel and rubber. other

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In fact it is highly likely that the rims are made from wood. Wood was the most popular material for rims around that time and metal rims only became popular (on safeties) with the rise of rim brakes (which this bicycle does not have). The tires are certainly not wood, they are pneumatic rubber

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of 70GPa. Let's try a naive approach and assume that the pressure is along the length of the rim. (I know it does not, the tire pressure is radial, but my gut feeling is that the end result remains about the same.) To get the length contraction, we divide the tire pressure (about 10bar=1MPa), by

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Finally, Ford asserts that 'since the rim and spoke stiffnesses act like springs in parallel, they can both be increased to roughly equal effect,' and 'modern double-walled rims are advantageous in this respect because of their closed cross-section, while classic single-walled rims are much more

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I'm convinced prior art for nipples in the hub (and not in the rim) goes to Ringlé, 1991, but cannot find any reference for it online. They've been later bought by Sun, who've been the first to actually integrate the nipples (1994? 1995?) and not Industry Nine (2018) who are credited currently.

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This is a conversation that covers the two meanings of dish as applied to a wheel. Note the noted author on bicycle wheels Jobst Brandt is in the discussion. He gives the "appearance" definition. Sheldon Brown does the same in reply to someone else, but also the already noted glossary link is

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Yes, I see that, but it does not support your point, especially in light of the quotations I provided above from the very same article. All I can see is that these five authorities, Sheldon Brown, John Allen, Daniel Boals, Jobst Brandt, and John Forester use dish in both, closely related senses:

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The ISO standard measurement of tire and rim sizes (622 mm, 559 mm etc.) is the smallest diameter of the tyre, which matches the diameter of the bead seat of the rim. The bead seat is the little shelf inside either side of the rim. Some rims, however, do not have bead seats, relying instead on

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Given the number of readily available sources that refer to it at 27.5", I'd say the cat is long out of the bag, and we're not inventing anything. I find it more useful to see the main standards by which something is known explicitly listed. We should not suppress 27.5" any more than we should

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The most comprehensive article I've found on buckling, by Ford, et al., discusses several possible buckling modes but asserts that failure occurs with mode n = 2, 'known as a “taco” or “potato chip” due to its saddle-like shape.' He even calculates the first few mode stiffnesses. I can't find

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Sir! Are you really that dense? Seriously! I am using YOUR OWN sources to point out TO YOU that you are not reading them correctly. "Dish" is used as a NOUN to describe the "appearance" of dish in a wheel as a reference to the shape of a bowl. "Dish" is used as a VERB in reference to the

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The article discusses different methods of measuring beaded-edge and wired-edge tires, but does not define the distinction between a bead and a wire or say which is more common in which contexts. Seems to me, in an encyclopedia intended for ordinary people to read, the latter points are more

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I believe a discussion of 26 x 1.25, 26 x 1½, etc. should be included because for the average reader the 'wheel' includes the tyres. People should understand that the size 26in is only nominal, and the sizes of the various non-standard tires should be explained in terms of the UST/ISO/ETRTO

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Your point that one definition is a noun and the other is a verb seems obvious and only mildly interesting. I have responded by showing that the cited sources do not describe one definition as more or less technical or accurate than the other. Instead, they readily use the term both ways.

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This is exactly what I mean. YOU are purposely misrepresenting what I point out to you. I have never used the word "dish" "exclusively" as having ONE meaning. I have pointed out repeatedly that is has TWO meanings in reference to bicycle wheels - one as used as a "NOUN" to describe the

2209:{{essay}} was replaced by {{cleanup "...essay..."}}. The article does not strike me as being an essay, more like a systematic collection of information. It might even benefit from cleanup (which WP article would not?), but not because it is an essay, so I'm going to remove that tag. 2953:

Disc wheel, Deep Section wheel (like Starley 80mm) v shallow shaped rim, three/four/five spoke bike wheels, fat-tire wheels (for fatbikes), loop wheel, collapsible wheel, marc kerger's foldable wheel, Morph Wheel (it's actually for wheelchair but system could be used for bikes).

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appearance the focus. All wheels go through this procedure when properly built and all are centered in order to be considered "dished" in the technical sense. Note also that there are no terms "less" or "more" dished. Either there is "improvement" needed or the wheel is dished.

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As I noted earlier - the proper use of the term on a technical basis is in relation to "centering". All bicycle wheels - whether symmetrical or asymmetrical when properly built are dished. I.e., centered between the axle lock nuts - a dishing tool tests for exactly that -

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initial assessment at a glance that people will make of the rim not being centered in an asymmetrical wheel - until that is - they stop and take a closer look using the correct "axle-ends" versus "rim-position" comparison. The dotted center line drives that point home.

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What misconceptions do you mean, and what do you mean by "which some as a marketing term also refer to as a 650B, which it is not"? Are you claiming that wheels sold under the designation "27.5" are not 650B? Sheldon Brown sure seemed to think they were when he wrote:

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The "traditional" 650B, (which is enjoying a revival) is a 26" outside diameter wheel that mounts ~1½ inch volume tires on 584 mm rims. 650 is just the metric equivalent of 26 inches. 650Bs are used mainy for Randonneur Bicycles, aka French tandems and touring

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brands/models to list and which not to list. I suspect that Mavic was first to market but I am not sure. Do we want to try to make a list of all of them or should we choose one or two as references? Is it possible to have a NPOV if we list some but not others?

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If you go back to the Sheldon Brown reference - while it talks about the casual appearance of "dish" that is common in casual and informal chats, i.e., the appearance of a "dish" as in a piece of kitchen hardware , it concludes with the technical description of

592:]. I think saying that they don't have holes is misleading though. The rim still has holes, just in a separate section of the rim. AFAIK, campagnolo rims all have spoke/nipple holes. Just not in the 2nd layer of aluminum so you don't have to use rim tape. 1411:

Second, while I do see Sheldon using the terms in the way that you describe, I do not see him doing so exclusively. Examples are numerous in the very article you keep citing, but here are some that I have not already quoted above:

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You are welcome to cite other sources. Sheldon Brown's site is handy because it is available to everyone, and it is likely to be reliable because he consults with other established authorities in the field such as Jobst Brandt and

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flexible in torsion than in bending.' Thus, I think it would be incorrect to claim that 'the rim alone is weak, not inherently stiff,' since it appears that rim stiffness plays an important role in total resistance to buckling. -

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the current bike-eu article only because it is refering to what I understand a tubular tire to be. However the Bike-eu and the Road Cycling articles provide a picture that explins what is going on far better than VeloNews does.

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clues are what seem to be reflections on the rims and possible technological problems with joining wood with obviously metal spokes. Personally, I would opt for removing the example from the article until some Wikipedian from

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Quote: "While for purposes of general casual and informal chats laymen might use "dish" as a description of the differing appearance of the two sides of a geared or disc wheel, for technical purposes that description is not

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The terms "asymmetrical" and "offset" are the best terms to use to explain the difference in appearance of the two sides of a wheels where geared and disc wheels are concerned. The existing write-up does tackle that aspect.

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While for purposes of general casual and informal chats laymen might use "dish" as a description of the differing appearance of the two sides of a geared or disc wheel, for technical purposes that description is not correct.

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The only confusion I have on this topic is why you insist that one definition is correct and the other is not. I have not yet seen a single reference that confirms your point, let alone read a cogent argument that supports

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Jobst Brandt would be the person to ask for rim stability, but sadly we're a bit late for that. I presume you have his book? Rim stiffness is important, but then none of them (except mainly downhill deep-V rims) are stiff

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claims that the rims are wooden... I doubt this and there is no mention of it in the image summary. They look like rusted steel to me. Have messaged the image uploaded but consider this a request for any other input.

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Nutation is practically impossible for bicycle wheels, as the rim collapses first, but if the rim is assumed to be rigid then it's easier to model. I also have some discussion of it in 1900-ish mining textbooks (for

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In the face of these quotations, I cannot see how you can insist that Sheldon Brown uses dished exclusively to mean centered or symmetrical. The last quotation specifically contradicts your original assertion that

2820:, and also resistance to taco failures. The wheel is a composite of the rim and spokes acting together. Tacos are a failure of this, and highlight the fact that the rim alone is weak, not inherently stiff. 539:

Huh - Campagnolo rims (presumably, the rims used on Campy's own wheels) don't have spoke holes? Both my sets do! Which wheels don't use holes for spokes? If it is just a few designs, we should probably say

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May be it shoud be mentioned that a 27 inch bicycle wheel has a diameter of 630 mm, which is not only a lot (46 mm, nearly two inches) more than a 27.5 inch wheel but also 8 mm more than a 28 inch wheel...

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Go all the way down to the last bullet item under "Improvised Tools" and note the use of flipping the wheel in the stays to check for centering of the rim between the axle lock nuts IN ORDER TO DISH THE

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The number of spoke holes on the rim normally matches the number of spoke holes in the hub. Some unusual rim designs have no holes for spokes, for example Campagnolo road rims and the Velocity Zvino MTB

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It added "hooks" to the definition of the alternate tire type commonly, and apparently erroniously, refered as clincher. See the discussion section just above this one to see that "hooks" do not define

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While I appreciate your wheel building experience and your passion to improve this article, you must understand that neither trumps the absolute requirement on Knowledge (XXG) to support claims with

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I found it odd to begin with that Sheldon Brown is referenced - but the section is a rewrite of it and took the reference which is correct and got it wrong or confused in the section when rewritten.

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wheel in a stand to accomplish the same would help drive the point home very quickly because those actions will immediately highlight the "centering" action that is the focus of "dishing" a wheel.--

2607: 1573:"appearance" of dish and the other as used as a "VERB" for the technical aspect of "centering" the rim between the axle lock nuts - USING THIS VERY ARTICLE's OWN REFERENCE to Sheldon Brown!!! 1720:

the rim expressed in distance of offset. That is, if the conical dish of the left spokes has a different depth than the right, the difference is the amount of dish (disparity) of the wheel.

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Probably due to a shortage of sources on such topics :). Bicycling magazine made a big deal about this about 30 years ago, but the naming conventions don't seem to have been affected.

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As much as I enjoy clarifying confusing terminology, unless another source can be found that does not contradiction your claims so frequently, I'm afraid this matter is closed. -

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Reference: Sharp, Archibald, "Bicycles & Tricycles, An Elementary Treatise on Their Design and Construction", Longmans, Green, 1896 pp495-497 (Reprinted MIT Press, 1979).

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I recommend thicker spokes for the right side of a dished rear wheel (a wheel used with a cassette) than the left side, because the left-side spokes are under lower tension.

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Can you back this up with any data or references. Have you ridden wheels with low and high moments? There _is_ a noticeable difference when accelerating and climbing.

2758: 2754: 2740: 2113:"a long axle, typically 20 mm (110 mm width), 9 mm (100.33 mm width) in diameter for durability, onto which the fork/frame clamps (found on most mountain bike forks)." 357:

The fact that wood has been used for rims is not in question; merely what this picture is of. If you look around where the rim meets the tyre (which is most certainly

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Young's Modulus and arrive at 1MPa/70GPa = 1/70000. For every meter of rim circumference, the tire compresses it by 14µm (0.014mm). Not noticeable, I'd say. --

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The "new" 27.5" size is just that, a 27.5" outside diameter wheel that mounts 2+ inch volume tires on 584 mm rims. 27.5" are used mainly for Mountain bikes .

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Yes, the wooden bit is actualy the tyre. If there were no metal rim as well, then how would the metal spokes be fixed to the rim securely enough perform well?

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In short, all I'm recommending is a rewrite that simplifies the write-up by approaching the description more concretely or by getting straight to the point.

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concerns about rotational inertia of bicycle wheels are vastly overstated--the inertia of all bicycle wheels is negligible compared to the mass of the rider.

827:? It seems irrelevant because UST rims are still made around the same 26" standard as non-UST rims, and this section of the article is talking about the 124: 1008:

The high amount of dishing called for to make room for more and more sprockets has caused an increase in spoke breakage on the left side of rear wheels,

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If after reading that you still don't get it, then the following as queried above and the fourth noted synonym is not a personal attack, it applies:

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I lifted this paragraph from the article as it's just a bunch of unsourced claims. I suppose it should either be sourced and replaced, or left out.

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Right, I get this now! On a double wall rim they have holes for the nipples to poke through, but not on the bit that touches the innertube/tubular.

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not totally happy with the summary but maybe someone else can clean it up a little. Lets leave the tubeless tubular for the tubular tire page.

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of John Allen, Daniel Boals, Jobst Brandt, and John Forester does describe a wheel as having more or less dish and being more or less dished. -

875: 2183:, where not cited, it appears that it was written off of personal knowledge of editors, which again is not allowed per aforementioned policy. 2656: 90: 2574:... the average 29" mountain bike tire is (in ISO notation) 59-622 - corresponding to an outside diameter of about 29.15 inches (740 mm). 2697:

https://web.archive.org/web/20130509125215/http://www.bicycling.com:80/mountainbikecom/bikes-gear/reviewed-275-mountain-bikes-all-trails

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120507042441/http://www.dtswiss.com:80/getdoc/71f384b2-a638-401e-bd66-accbc9c64124/TechnicalDatasheet.aspx

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Instead the quotation you provide suggests that use of the term dish to describe accurate centering of a symmetrical wheel is merely an

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article have no trouble calling Tufos tubulars. The slangy 'sew-ups' would be no weirder than 'clipless pedals' or 'threadless stems'. -

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means symmetrical, or if all wheels are dished because dished means "made symmetrical", why would he use these redundant descriptions.

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Quote: "By extension, the term "dish" is used as a general synonym for accurate centering, even in the case of symmetrical wheels."

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There are more than three directions for quantifiable stiffness in a bike wheel. Two of the more important others would be against

2213: 1171:. Did you read his wheel building article? It clearly shows his use dish in a relative sense. Perhaps you have another source. - 81: 58: 2075:

This article could really do with explaining the difference between single/double/triple wall rims (with pics). Something like

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to indicate that the rim is not centered between the hub flanges in contrast to the alternative: centered spoking (undished).

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called for to make room for more and more sprockets has caused an increase in spoke breakage on the left side of rear wheels.

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I read the section on "dish" and I'd like to note for the prominent editors for this article that it needs a rewrite.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20070324124843/http://www.vredesteinusa.com:80/index.html?lang=en-us&target=d16.html

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which suggests that dish describes a wheel that is asymmetrical, not merely a wheel on which the rim is centered. -

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I interpret Sheldon's comments as meaning that all three designations are synonymous. What is the misconception? -

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

2500: 2461: 2159:. Definitely needs some cleanup though. For starters they're far from being found on most mountain bike forks. - 2903:

All or some of this would make a nice addition to the article, but I didn't take the time to sort it all out. -

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The above entry is supposed to explain the addition of tags {{essay}}, {{original research}} and {{howto}} in

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Therefore, I believe it is best to include all three designations in the section, as it currently appears. -

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Mountain bike wheels are described by the approximate outer diameter of the wheel plus a wide, ~2 inch tire.

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My original opening note to the request for the edit was exactly as follows as copied and pasted from above:

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http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/eqovp/til_that_the_tensioned_spoke_bicycle_wheel_has/c1a64yp

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https://web.archive.org/web/20090116231017/http://www.bikemag.com/features/onlineexclusive/040306_vernon/

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It lost two alternate name "sew-up" and "single" that I think are very useful in an encyclopedia article.

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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Can we please keep this as 650B (which is what the standard is defined as), rather than inventing 27.5

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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As the image uploader I cannot solve the problem definately because the pic was taken a few years ago,

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Lets keep the hoopla on bay, we all know there's confusion in tire sizing, but why complicate it more.

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Sorry, I didn't read the comments first. Okay, I get part of it. Let me try to restore what you had. -

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This source only confirms my point. Jobst Brandt spells out exactly the definition that you claim is

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either the wheel is dished or it isn't dished. There is no such thing as more dished or less dished.

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http://www.cyclingcrowd.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/technical/12117/Clarification-Needed-Definition-of-Dish

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Half-radial rear wheels can be substantially more durable than conventional ones, if the wheel is

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technical wheel building action of "centering" the rim between the ends of the hub axle lock nuts.

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I did go back to read his short glossary entry, and I can find no support for your assertion that

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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Thanks for cleaning it up. I knew what I was trying to say but it didn't come out very well.

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ISO 8090 (“Cycles – Glossary of terms”) lists the following types of rims along with drawings:

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anything about stiffness against nutation, however. Perhaps that is Ford's mode n = 1 or 0. -

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If dish simply means symmetrical, does he mean that half-radial spoking requires or causes

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http://www.bicycling.com/mountainbikecom/bikes-gear/reviewed-275-mountain-bikes-all-trails

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http://www.dtswiss.com/getdoc/71f384b2-a638-401e-bd66-accbc9c64124/TechnicalDatasheet.aspx

2117: 73: 52: 1281: 222: 2743:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 2568: 2563:

The average 29-inch mountain bike tire has an outside diameter of about 28.5" (724 mm).

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wood!), you can see shine and reflections which give it the appearance of metal to me.

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Bicycle_wheel&diff=prev&oldid=526829030

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https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Bicycle_wheel&diff=prev&oldid=526828497

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I am not sure that I believe everything that it says but I do agree with some of it.

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the pressure and the tire is held on the rim by being slightly smaller than the rim.

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goes for a nice walk to the nearby Technological Museum and finds out the Truth ;-)

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Why is there no mention of disc wheels? Rather major piece missing from the article.

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Yes, you do mention two meanings, and then you point out that one is only valid for

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Sorry again about the revert, but the recent change had a lot of points to discuss

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A highly-dished rear wheel starts with very light tension on the left side spokes,

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So, to keep it neutral and for international appeal I would retitle section as

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With half-radial spoking, the amount of dish is very slightly less to begin with,

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Sheldon Brown seems to agree, although he may be using the same original source:

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https://web.archive.org/web/20080717060635/http://www.hadland.me.uk:80/rims.html

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the proper use of the term on a technical basis is in relation to "centering".

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https://web.archive.org/web/20110728131910/http://www.mavic.com/en/tracomp/

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This article disagrees with another in Knowledge (XXG). From this article:

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giving it the greatest strength to weight ratio of any man-made structure?

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Numerous quotations specifically contradict your original assertion that

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If dish simply means symmetrical, this statement makes no sense at all.

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http://www.vredesteinusa.com/index.html?lang=en-us&target=d16.html

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It's not that clear from the photo, but it could be tarnished metal.

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https://web.archive.org/web/19981212022510/http://www.acsbmx.com:80/

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ISO 584-mm wheel size, known in the French sizing system as “650B.”

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source, I would fully support adding that detail to the article. -

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It tosses out a reference without replacing it as discussed above.

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If dish simply means symmetrical, what could he possibly mean by

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rear wheel starts with very light tension on the left side spokes

2134:"Park Tool Co. » ParkTool Blog » Wheel Removal and Installation" 1889:

That is not correct - as has already been explained and sourced.

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http://www.bikemag.com/features/onlineexclusive/040306_vernon/

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purposes of general casual and informal chats laymen might use

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centering the rim, and asymmetrical spoke tension and angle. -

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the

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The rear wheel itself is a lot stronger than one made with

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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to make room for a whole bunch of sprockets on one side.

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http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/9662.0.html

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a tube, and then the Tufo tubulars definitely fit. This

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of the rim moves outside the triangle of the spokes).

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If you have another reliable source, please cite it. -

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types, the valves are visible coming out of the rims.

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There is no such thing as more dished or less dished.

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there is no such thing as more dished or less dished

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Optimizing the tension despite the different dishing

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Can someone tell me if (and why) the mention of UST

85:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 2753:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 1426:I recommend thicker spokes for the right side of a 1343:http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#tensioning 1195:http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#tensioning 2969:Rim diameter should not change with tire pressure 2149:"MTB Quick Releases Systems a Thing of the Past?" 346:Wood definitely have been used for making rims. 164:http://www.exploratorium.edu/cycling/wheel1.html 2843:new material is "start section on stiffness." - 2739:This message was posted before February 2018. 8: 1781:http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dense 1606:for technical purposes that description is 1030:so it seems that the cited source with the 846:these issues at sheldonbrown.com/650b.html 455:Sorry, wrong wheel, no wood on these rims. 438:Here is the image again for another look - 2835:It is great to hear from you, Mr. Dingley! 2601: 47: 2629:I have just modified 7 external links on 2360:(which by the way it's expressed wrongly) 671:http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html 2503:includes Sheldon Brown, himself, saying 863:standard. Hedley 06:03, 7 May 2012 (UTC) 819:26-inch wheels: Is this germane? NPOV? 2212:What remains is {{original research}} ( 1054:Sheldon quotes John Allen, who states: 991:exactly what a dishing tool tests for. 49: 19: 2608:2A01:598:A006:6453:4C6E:AFFF:FE0C:8218 2039:What an unusual way to ask for help. - 528:At time of writing, the article says: 2728:to let others know (documentation at 444:Bicycle with rims made of wood (1896) 185:By all means, please add a mention. - 7: 2131:There is such a thing as a thru axle 1477:is very slightly less to begin with. 1400:First, I advise you to avoid making 899:Exactly how do you measure the size? 650:Clincher is not quite the right term 79:This article is within the scope of 904:explanation, or perhaps a diagram. 711:There is no mention of “clincher”. 99:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Cycling 38:It is of interest to the following 2975:the first of your two recent edits 2651:http://www.hadland.me.uk/rims.html 815:traction, comfort, and stability. 14: 2633:. Please take a moment to review 2283:Totally agree with Andy Dingley, 3015:High-importance cycling articles 2671:http://www.mavic.com/en/tracomp/ 2555:Outside diameter of "29er" tires 2220: 72: 51: 20: 1715:but makes no such distinction: 1500:Here's one from his article on 119:This article has been rated as 1473:With half-radial spoking, the 1003:If the wheel is highly dished, 999:, he uses expressions such as 588:Here's some info on the Zvino 524:Rims with no holes for spokes? 383: 376: 369: 364: 308: 301: 294: 289: 190:14:23, 13 September 2006 (UTC) 180:11:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC) 1: 2537:01:31, 19 December 2015 (UTC) 2239:16:52, 19 December 2021 (UTC) 1103:23:54, 28 February 2011 (UTC) 931:21:16, 23 December 2011 (UTC) 893:08:35, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 856:21:20, 23 December 2011 (UTC) 721:22:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC) 698:sprint rim; adhesive bond rim 93:and see a list of open tasks. 2996:20:46, 3 December 2021 (UTC) 2807:20:57, 1 November 2016 (UTC) 2523:11:12, 6 November 2014 (UTC) 2475:14:41, 4 November 2014 (UTC) 2462:650B LIVES! by Sheldon Brown 2333:02:05, 31 October 2014 (UTC) 2193:09:49, 7 December 2012 (UTC) 1404:. They will quickly get you 916:18:21, 10 January 2011 (UTC) 801:23:38, 4 February 2009 (UTC) 786:21:35, 4 February 2009 (UTC) 772:21:32, 4 February 2009 (UTC) 737:17:43, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 272:21:23, 4 February 2009 (UTC) 254:16:46, 4 February 2009 (UTC) 235:14:26, 4 February 2009 (UTC) 211:23:44, 3 February 2009 (UTC) 102:Template:WikiProject Cycling 2616:01:20, 7 January 2020 (UTC) 2169:23:27, 12 August 2012 (UTC) 2126:18:10, 12 August 2012 (UTC) 1511:off-center (dished) spoking 1341:Here it is again: Source: 743:Lead section and definition 519:07:12, 9 October 2008 (UTC) 3031: 2964:06:02, 22 April 2020 (UTC) 2941:21:59, 22 March 2017 (UTC) 2913:20:44, 22 March 2017 (UTC) 2895:20:44, 22 March 2017 (UTC) 2874:20:44, 22 March 2017 (UTC) 2853:20:44, 22 March 2017 (UTC) 2830:16:41, 22 March 2017 (UTC) 2770:(last update: 5 June 2024) 2626:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 2103:06:24, 2 August 2011 (UTC) 2088:14:08, 1 August 2011 (UTC) 1515:Here he very clearly uses 707:single chamber crochet rim 704:double chamber crochet rim 503:19:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC) 483:19:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC) 125:project's importance scale 2578:Neither has a reference. 2202:and {{single source}} in 2071:Single/Double/Triple wall 2049:21:36, 3 March 2011 (UTC) 2003:22:47, 2 March 2011 (UTC) 1856:21:32, 2 March 2011 (UTC) 1817:19:09, 2 March 2011 (UTC) 1627:21:32, 2 March 2011 (UTC) 1548:16:24, 2 March 2011 (UTC) 1376:14:54, 2 March 2011 (UTC) 1299:10:24, 2 March 2011 (UTC) 1264:08:28, 2 March 2011 (UTC) 1237:10:24, 2 March 2011 (UTC) 1181:07:17, 2 March 2011 (UTC) 1153:04:36, 2 March 2011 (UTC) 1074:06:54, 1 March 2011 (UTC) 1044:06:54, 1 March 2011 (UTC) 985:10:15, 1 March 2011 (UTC) 965:10:15, 1 March 2011 (UTC) 841:21:21, 12 June 2010 (UTC) 681:16:36, 22 July 2007 (UTC) 664:06:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC) 644:04:30, 3 April 2008 (UTC) 460:13:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC) 451:13:28, 6 April 2007 (UTC) 433:13:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC) 404:09:51, 4 April 2007 (UTC) 395:03:39, 4 April 2007 (UTC) 351:21:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC) 342:17:13, 3 April 2007 (UTC) 332:13:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC) 320:05:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC) 172:21:44, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) 118: 67: 46: 3010:C-Class cycling articles 2297:01:48, 14 May 2013 (UTC) 2275:15:54, 12 May 2013 (UTC) 2259:15:19, 12 May 2013 (UTC) 1779:Definition of "Dense": 1612:Then, you continue with 995:In Sheldon's article on 614:16:03, 1 June 2007 (UTC) 597:14:59, 30 May 2007 (UTC) 580:19:22, 28 May 2007 (UTC) 568:20:12, 15 May 2007 (UTC) 546:Campagnolo road rims..." 147:Strength to weight ratio 2622:External links modified 2590:05:50, 7 May 2015 (UTC) 2499:Good reads indeed. The 2116:seems to make no sense. 2109:Nonsensical statement ? 2691:http://www.acsbmx.com/ 2285:we will not get fooled 2093:I took a stab at it. - 1467:high amount of dishing 1457:high amount of dishing 1284:. Your assertion that 475: 445: 28:This article is rated 2427:27.5 inch / ISO 584mm 2316:"584 mm" designation. 1408:from Knowledge (XXG). 1197:(As you suggested...) 936:Description of "Dish" 554:comment was added by 471: 443: 32:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 2751:regular verification 2353:Mountain bike wheels 1489:highly dished inward 1483:asymmetrical wheels? 1420:symmetrically dished 283:Image:Bamboobike.jpg 2973:@McKnight, I undid 2741:After February 2018 2720:parameter below to 2431:29 inch / ISO 622mm 2265:suppress ISO 584. - 831:of the rim, right? 488:See the article at 468:Reaction to inertia 82:WikiProject Cycling 2795:InternetArchiveBot 2746:InternetArchiveBot 1487:Their wheels were 807:rolling resistance 692:straight-sided rim 446: 34:content assessment 2771: 2618: 2606:comment added by 2458:Confrérie des 650 1995:The real mrrabbit 1809:The real mrrabbit 1428:dished rear wheel 1418:Front wheels are 1368:The real mrrabbit 1256:The real mrrabbit 1156: 1141:The real mrrabbit 1139:comment added by 1106: 1091:The real mrrabbit 1089:comment added by 883:comment added by 646: 630:comment added by 571: 392: 379: 317: 304: 221:article and this 139: 138: 135: 134: 131: 130: 3022: 2805: 2796: 2769: 2768: 2747: 2735: 2595:Nipples and Hubs 2467:Moebiusuibeom-en 2456:Good reads @ ; 2351:As the intro to 2289:Moebiusuibeom-en 2228: 2224: 2223: 2158: 2156: 2155: 2143: 2141: 2140: 1402:personal attacks 1282:reliable sources 1155: 1133: 1105: 1083: 895: 625: 549: 542:"...for example 390: 385: 380: 377: 371: 366: 315: 310: 305: 302: 296: 291: 107: 106: 105:cycling articles 103: 100: 97: 76: 69: 68: 63: 55: 48: 31: 25: 24: 16: 3030: 3029: 3025: 3024: 3023: 3021: 3020: 3019: 3000: 2999: 2983:Young's_modulus 2971: 2951: 2814: 2799: 2794: 2762: 2755:have permission 2745: 2729: 2639:this simple FaQ 2624: 2597: 2557: 2247: 2221: 2219: 2176: 2153: 2151: 2147: 2138: 2136: 2132: 2111: 2073: 1134: 1084: 1032:kind assistance 938: 901: 878: 870: 821: 809: 745: 652: 550:—The preceding 526: 470: 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