Talk:Brig - Knowledge (XXG)

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context from the commonly used one is a bit irrelevant - in the context of sailing vessel rigs, ship does, and always will have, a specific meaning. No one is arguing against the idea that in normal usage out of this context it can be, and indeed is, used to describe just about anything that floats. But this is an article about a sailing rig that is distinct from a ship rig. The term 'full-rigged-ship' is a fairly modern term that tries to get around the fact that the word ship has obviously come to be applied to anything due to the ending of the age of sail - in general usage. As soon as you get into talking about rigs though, it is as I have said. So

1568:

the rig first and foremost, and only by extension to the whole vessel carrying that rig. I wouldn't have any issues with someone writing a sentence along these lines: 'the squadron consisted of 8 ships, of which 3 were ships of the line, 2 were frigates and the remainder brigs.' But since the article is specifically about the rig, as to consider it to be about a complete vessel makes no real sense, including the word ship in the title just confuses things completely. The article is not about a ship, or vessel: it is about a type of rig. I don't think any disambiguation is needed in the first place, but to me

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mock up of the rigging on land and call it "a brig" (as opposed to "a brig's rigging") -- something that most would find odd -- and if a brig was de-masted in a fight one would not usually stop referring to her as a brig until such time as the damage was repaired. I suspect for clarity one needs to think of brig as a class of vessel rigged in a certain way not as a type of rigging. --

2257:

talking about the rig of a Brig, or a Ketch, or a Schooner, or a Xebec.... to throw in the word ship gives you a contradiction. Do you mean Brig (etc), or Ship? Thus Brig (ship) is a really bad title. The category 'Two-masted ships' is badly named, however - Knowledge (XXG) should strive to achieve at least some degree of technical accuracy, despite not being a technical publication.

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and it looks as though he has been quoted out of context (I believe he was talking about the multi-masted schooners - but I do not have a copy to hand at the moment). There are ample books on maritime history, written by authors with significant credentials. That should be the reference base for much

2279:

We should certainly strive for accuracy. But in the choice of an article title, we generally follow current English usage, and it's sometimes illogical but the policy is that Knowledge (XXG) still follows current usage and in particular doesn't try to reform the current language. (That's why I headed

612:

Am finding conflicting info regarding the use of Brig Unicorn from St. Lucia and its appearances in Pirates of the Caribbean. It's being marketed on various St Lucia websites and elsewhere as being the Black Pearl in at least the first film (and with appearances as other ships in the other 2 films).

461:

All the sources I'm seeing are saying that to be a brig both sails must be square not as the current article says "at least one". I think the modern usage takes precedence and its not as modern as you might think because I found a LOC ref to a brig George Washington had and they say that at that time

3072:

The difference between a Brig and a Brigantine is in the mainsail. A brig has a square-rigged mainsail, while the Brigantine had a fore-and-aft rigged mainsail. This fore-and-aft mainsail was identical to that of a gaff rigged schooner (at the time, bermuda rigged schooners did not yet exist). It is

2968:

In this article there the World's one of most famous brigs, Russian brig "Mercury" wasn't mentioned by even couple of words! In those battle in 1829 those Russian brig "Mercury" (armed with 18 light guns) had against 2 line battleships (flagman and vice-flagman, 90 and 120 guns each by Turkish data)

2624:

This also happens to be the status quo. I would suggest that every dictionary I have consulted has the sailing vessel as the primary meaning, and that I'd be interested to hear of a counter argument that argues powerfully against the dictionary usage - all I hear at the moment is personal opinion.

1817:

In situations such as this, in which the title of an article refers to two closely-related but separate objects (in this case a class of vessel and a system of rigging) the title is usually disambiguated with a term that refers not to either type of object, but to a subject category that covers both

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it is brig rigged - hence it is the rig that is the important thing here. So there is no possible way you can split the article into two. Because the term brig is so intractably related to the rig itself, saying Brig (ship) doesn't work - do you see? So in an attempt to clarify my point about as far

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to move as proposed. The discussion makes clear that the proposed move is not correct. However the discussion raises the issue of what is the primary use of brig? That question was raised but not given, in my opinion, a fair hearing. So if someone wants to raise that as a possible rename to some

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It is hard to understand what you are saying. There are references provided concerning the rigging if you take issue with them provide alternative references backing your position. The Lady Washington (recreation) is a brig as shown on her own article page and if one follows the external link to her

485:

I don't think these articles should be merged, while the brig evolved from the brigantine they had seperate histories after that and to try and weave them together into one article would confuse the reader. When these articles were both small that might have made sense, but I think this article can

2256:

The point is, in modern casual usage, the word 'ship' is amorphous - not just modern, but throughout history. However, in the specific context of rigs, ship takes on a very particular meaning. So whilst in casual speech you might refer to any kind of vessel larger than a boat as a ship, if you are

1658:

A vessel becomes a brig by virtue of being brig rigged. It is completely possible to turn that very same vessel, with the minimum of effort, into a brigatine, simply by altering the rig. So yes, the vessel as a whole is called a brig, but if you were to change the rig it would become whatever that

1567:

Thing is, though, this article isn't about a ship, putting aside whether the word ship should be applied to a brig. It is about the sailing rig. The only demands the brig rig places on a hull is that it be of a sufficient size for it. Beyond that the hull is irrelevant, so the term brig applies to

1316:

We don't count occurrences as a means of determining what is a primary subject. If we did, the total number of brigs, current and historical would far outnumber the number of naval military prisons (try looking at the number of links within Wiki?)- but I wouldn't dream of using such an irrelevant

1200:

No one is disputing that the word "ship" is largely synonymous with the word "vessel", but ship has another meaning, which is a technical distinction from "brig", and so making the article name "Brig (ship)" is nonsense. There is a technical function to an encyclopaedia that is not well served by

1742:

The first meaning in the OED for brig is "a. A vessel" given that definition then the statement "A vessel with two masts square-rigged like a ship's fore- and main-masts," is internally consistent with the rest of the entry. It is clearly more than rigging: If that was all it was one could call a

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wrong. As wrong as the whole infobox: Place of origin is not Mediterranean - might be Atlantik, might be Chanal. Weight, length and crews are nonsens, brigs are only specyfied on their rigg: if you'll build tomorrow a 100-m-2-mast-square-rigged ship, it will aswell be a brig. Please, change these

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I respect your knowledge on this subject. From what you say, it seems the word "brig" can describe two separate things: A type of rigging configuration, and a type of ship (this definition is also clear in the article). To clear this problem up, we'll need to split this article into two separate

2439:

If it absolutely had to have a disambiguator (which I do not agree with), 'sailing rig' would be vastly better than 'ship', since the former is exactly what the article is about, and the latter is exactly what the article is not about. Disagreeing that the word ship has a meaning in a different

1141:- A brig is not a brigantine as, judging by the comments above, most people are aware. Nor is it a 'ship'. Brig as a sailing vessel is, in my opinion, the primary meaning. I propose therefore, that this article is renamed 'brig' with hatnotes to 'brig (guardhouse)' and 'brig (disambiguation)'.-- 1209:

the sailing vessel is the primary topic (as it has been for years) then it needs no parenthesis, and a hatnote at the top of the article directing readers to the DAB page is sufficient. That's where we were before you moved the articles around without any consensus.

1711:. They are both rigs, and both makes of car, but neither title makes any sense at all. Ship has multiple meanings whereas Audi does not, but the alternative meanings don't make any sense in this context. Hopefully now you can see where I'm coming from on this one. 1269:

Of course it's my opinion. Why would I promote someone else's opinion? Let me put it a different way: If you were to count the number of brigs in use around the world, what number of them would be military prisons, and what number of them would be sailing vessels?

2649:

My raising a formal proposal for such a move above is intended to promote such discussion. I think it would have been better to just close the messy original nomination and open a fresh one, but I felt I was too involved to do this, and nobody else took my hints.

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has the nautical vessel "brig" as the first and primary meaning. "Brig" as a naval prison is a chiefly US term. I'd be interested to hear what Websters says, but I don't have a copy. Wiktionary agrees with the OED, that the vessel type is the primary meaning.

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1774 there was already a common distinction between Brig and Brigantine. I'm going to change this if I find historical usage that indicates that at one point a ship could be a brig with just one square sail I'll note it in a historical perspective segment.--

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Then the article needs to be rewritten from the start because it says, "A brig is a sailing vessel with two square-rigged masts." A sailing vessel, which is a ship, ship being "the modern, common usage of the word.," rather than "A brig is a sailing rig."

972:

needs no disambiguation, and the naming convention was correct in the first place. Third, the moving of this article was under discussion, with an obvious consensus against when InternetMeme made the move. This now needs an admin to undo the changes.

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seems to be the sense in which Knowledge (XXG) has mostly used the term to date, for example in the category names I listed above, and it's the sense in which I tend to use the term, with some exceptions... A submarine of any size is a

1369:

I'm going to offer no evidence regarding primary meaning, but others are welcome to. If the primary meaning is the ship or rig, then we need do nothing. If it's anything else, then we still need to disambiguate this article title.

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my understanding that square sails needed more man to handle than fore-and-aft sails (I don't have a source ready, but will see if I can find a credible one). So while the second quote is correct, the first one is really odd.

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was a very technical term that described a particular vessel with three or more masts. By virtue of this old definition, virtually no vessels today are ships—they have no masts, as they are powered by diesel-electric motors.

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Essentially, the article is based on whatever can be found on the internet, with little consideration for the level of expertise that the website operator might have in the subject. There is only one book listed, written by

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Brigantine is different in having main mast full or partetly fore-and-aft sail rigged. That this is not only my opinion and aswell not based on different definitions in engl. or german did show me aswell your own article

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Not really as few if any brigs are built today and as the OED says: "A vessel with two masts square-rigged like a ship's fore- and main-masts," so dabbing it with an extension (ship) would make the name confusing. --

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herself) is a tangible, definite thing. However, she is a brig (ignore the term sloop here, it is a Royal Navy designation bearing no relation to the sloop rig) because she is so rigged. Now, if we contrast her with

333: 155: 1160:- Hey guys, sorry about the mistake. My only intention was to separate out the two different items ("Brig" as in "ship" and "brig" as in "prison"). According to the lead section of this article, a brig is indeed a 534:

I alphabetized the list of brigs. Removing the Mary Celeste, as the painting on her page makes clear that she was a brigantine. Chrono would likely be a better order than alpha, but I wasn't quite up for that. --

1675:. I have no real objection to someone referring to her in her article as a ship when referring to the vessel as a whole, because this is modern, common usage of the word, as has been said, and the subject (ie 1604:

However, this article refers to many, many specific ships, all of them "brigs". If it was about the sailing rig, would these be "ships which used a brig sailing rig" rather than just calling them brigs?

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of Ottoman Empire, Russian brig fatally damaged both of them, demanding Turkish ships to lie down on the drift, and then escaped. Nobody couldn't believe in this until Ottoman side confirmed the fact.

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Many people (usually via Star Trek) know "brig" as "onboard prison" who do not know what sort of ship a brig(ship) is. In these days of diesel power, is the sort of sailing ship now a dominant meaning?

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Is the difference the presence of a square rigged main course in addition to the gaff-rigged spanker on the brig vs. the hermaphrodite's main course being gaff-rigged and therefore 'not' technically a

1535:

If you're going to pull out the OED, it's best not to skip the first, 1-a, definition in favor of the one that supports your argument: "A large sea-going vessel (opposed to a boat)" - simple as that.

790:(two masts, only the forward one square rigged). The technical distinction is important, and thoroughly encyclopaedic. I'm not saying both articles couldn't use a re-write to improve quality, though. 511:

Just looking over the article, I would say expanding the introduction and adding an infobox should be enough to move this up to "B class" status. For now I still think it is a "Start-class". Cheers--

621:). If someone can shed some light if they know more and update both this page with the Unicorn's participation as well as adding it to the appropriate PotC / Black Pearl page, that would be swell. 2336:

This seems to be getting out of hand. Of course the word ship has evolved to mean any large ocean going vessel (too large to be carried on another, I believe) but in sailing circles the word 'ship'

1286:

Utterly irrelevant. Show me a source (dictionary, encyclopaedia, thesaurus) that makes the military prison the primary meaning, and I'll show you a hundred that put it the other way round.

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had on this talk page and reccommended that I request they classify it. If it has areas that need to be improved or are missing I hope they will list them here after their review is done.--

3435:

The term "Weight" in the info box is meaningless. The term should be "Tons burthen", and the measurement is volumetric with respect to the cargo capacity. The measure of burthen was

1842:

AFAIK, brig is used for naval prisons, not those of the army or air force, at least in the US. So I think your case to move the article is even weaker than you originally thought.--

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new rig makes it. I may not be making my point very clear, in which case I apologise. A vessel that is brig rigged is a brig, and anything else is not, but a vessel is only a brig

930:, these are two distinct topics, both correctly named, and this appears to be a merge request rather than a move and proposer's other actions seem questionable too. Clean up and 3086:

as a source. This very source also fails to note the difference between cutters and sloops (at the linked page); so it may not be the best source nautical correct information.

2416:

needs to be considered. Tall ship enthusiasts may wish to impose their meaning on the general public, but we don't need to go along with them, and in fact our policy is not to.

1443:

It depends soley on whether Knowledge (XXG) is supposed to use current English definitions for article titles. If it is, then no discussion is needed: a Brig is simply a ship.

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I see what you mean, but my resoning was purely anecdotal. I've heard the term 'brig' used many times, and I've never heard it in reference to a ship (I'm not from the US).

3460:(2) The omission of the collier brigs that served the North Sea coast of the UK is quite surprising. The article is generally very light on merchant vessels of this type. 1201:

dumbing down article names. In any case, in the lead section, "Merchant ship" is not synonymous with "ship", and Martocticvs' point stands. The article naming rules at

3377: 3373: 3359: 3251: 3247: 3233: 2399:, it's just among tall ship enthusiasts that the word still has this meaning, and it only had this meaning in general for a relatively short period of time even in the 2355:

I'm not sure I see a major problem: yes, the category is badly named (anyone fancy changing all those ship categories to "vessel"?!), and yes, the distinction between

2123:

to describe a vessel without regard for of its number of masts. Any vessel bigger than a boat is a ship. The question is, in this article, should we be using the term

2478:. This is a general encyclopedia, and article titles are selected to be recognisable to the layperson as well as to the expert. No expert will be misled by the title 210: 1205:

are quite clear - "If the topic of the article is the primary topic (or only topic) for a desired title, then the article can take that title without modification"

968:. Firstly, a brig is distinct from a ship in technical terms (as ship has three square rigged masts), so the new title is a nonsense in technical terms. Second, 2921:(and is thus a brig). Confusingly perhaps, a sloop-of-war is not sloop-rigged, but is instead defined by having an officer below the rank of captain in command. 3544: 1911:

The primary meaning (according to every dictionary I can find) is the sailing vessel, and according to our own rules, that means the article should be entitled

1496:

describes any large vessel. It doesn't matter when it was built; it doesn't matter what kind of masts it has: A Brig is a large vessel, and is therefore a ship.

2180:

at all it would be better to use it in the more general sense, but it may be best avoided. Perhaps we should have a later section that contrasts the rig to a

598:

own internet homepage it states the same thing. Remember within Knowledge (XXG) any claims you wish to make must have references to third-party experts.--

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What's going on? A brig and a brigantine are not the same thing (technically quite distinct, in fact). Why all the moves, and where is the discussion?

367: 176: 150: 3169: 3345: 3458:(1) Use of RM Ballantyne as a reference is questionable. What special knowledge does he have of the subject? There are other sources out there. 1246:

In your opinion. My dictionary doesn't agree with you, nor do the first three internet dictionaries I pulled off Google, including Websters -

2412:, either because there's another primary meaning or because currently there is no primary meaning, what's the best disambiguator? And I think 2163:(and some surprisingly small yachts do). These latter contexts tend to be formal and even affected speech, including humour and even ridicule. 1821:

Vessel classes and rigging systems are both topics that are within the field of sailing, so in this case, I would nominate the article title:

987:

Yes, there's some cleaning up to do, and this particular move proposal isn't helping IMO. Closing it would be a step towards cleaning up IMO.

934:, but at best proposer simply does not know what they are talking about, neither with respect to sailing rigs nor Knowledge (XXG) procedures. 185: 3082: 671:

The brig is also the title of the 19th episode, 3rd season, of the tv series Lost. The main event of the episode takes place inside a brig.

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One might as well argue that—technically speaking—computers aren't manufactured, because they aren't made by hand. The meaning of the word

2599:

If and when a consensus forms to rename this, then there'll be some basis to apply the principle more widely, such as in this discussion.

2371:). We should strive to ensure that the article explains the technical distinction clearly for the benefit of readers. That's why I made 3179: 912: 102: 3355:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

3093: 2542: 2310: 3117: 3052:(...) "that the sails, being smaller and more numerous, are more easily managed, and require fewer men or 'hands' to work them." 3007:

The following is a usefull diagram to show the different two masted vessels rigging plans, in relation to their classicifaction.

2850:

In sailing, a full-rigged brig is a vessel with two square rigged masts (fore and main). The main mast of a brig is the aft one.

2087:

I'm guessing you are right... but before basing any decisions on this I'd like to consider evidence from reliable sources. This

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that are in context of a two-masted square-rigged sailing vessel, but which now link (via a redirect) to a disambiguation page.

1118:

Good questions. Let's close this unhelpful RM and set up a neat discussion on whether the rig is really the primary meaning of

749:". Does "brig" mean one thing in England and another thing in USA? Can someone who knows about ships' rigging please comment? 44: 1748: 1471: 1430: 106: 931: 359: 89: 69: 496:

Were ships converted between brig and brigantine rigs with any frequency? If not, I don't think a merge is called for. --

2379:

at the top of this section. Nevertheless, if you can think of a better way of doing it, please go ahead and change it.

1032:- (edit conflict) why is this article now called Brig (ship)?? That's a hideous title, and technical self-contradictory. 907:

here, which is not a requested move at all. The removal of edit history required by the requested move is against policy

722:— Both articles describe the same thing, except for a small paragraph that can be moved to the article "Military Prison" 3420: 3294: 3199: 3189: 2991: 1864:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120425050927/http://www.texasnavy.com/History/General/19th_Century_Nautical_Glossary.pdf

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while the brigantine has one or more square sails on the main topmast, above a gaff rigged main-course, or "spanker".

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The hermaphrodite brig is distinguished from a brigantine in having exclusively fore-and-aft sails on the mainmast,

635:

How'd the transition get made from brig to military prison, etymologically speaking? Probably relevant here, innit?

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Agree that a simple revert (but leaving a redir) is helpful at this stage. No significant history at target. Done.

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retains its old meaning. Is it really such a problem to avoid the use of the word in articles such as this one?--

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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https://web.archive.org/web/20070301112328/http://freespace.virgin.net:80/r.cadwalader/maritime/era/fleetwin.htm

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rig really the place to split hairs like this? In normal conversation, even among sail enthusiasts, a brig is a

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the nominator made out of process moves to take away an existing article into limbospace to seemingly hide it (

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https://web.archive.org/web/20070912133014/http://www.mariner.org/exploration/index.php?type=shiptype&id=3

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are there to highlight the technical difference between a brig and a ship (for an example, see the infobox of

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being deleted first. Please can we go back to the (correct) previous naming conventions as soon as possible.

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reached that a move is required, there's no problem deciding on a disambiguator, because we don't need one.

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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have the article under the "Brig" namespace with a link at the top "this is an article about ships not

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https://web.archive.org/web/20070626195143/http://www.tallships.org/document.asp?cat=693&doc=6823

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Hey, this is an excellent idea. I wish you'd done this long ago, before I caused all that kerfuffle!

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A ship is a large vessel that floats on water. (according to my most valuable reference (wikipedia))

2234:, and that she's a very substantial vessel. But the cited newspaper account of the time calls her a 32: 3065:(...) They were replaced in commercial traffic by gaffsail schooners (which needed fewer personnel) 3019: 2924:

Unfortunately I'm pressed for time; if you give me a few days I'll improve the relevant articles.

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The move was made while a discussion was in progress on the subject of a similar move requested by

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is technically perverse, since one of the vessels that a brig is not, in a technical sense, is a

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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The primary meaning of the word is the ship type. The hatnote covers the situation adequately.

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I would not have a problem with, if there was to be consensus that a disambiguator is needed;

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now stand on its own and perhaps the brigantine article should be cleaned up and expanded.--

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To improve maneuverability, the mainmast carries a small (gaff rigged) fore-and-aft sail.

1373:

My main concern here is, if we do move this article, where to? Some other possibilities:

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The town has a wiki-page moving last suggested formulation to top of article suggeston.--

2102:

motors. Some do, mainly ferries, cruise ships, icebreakers and conventional submarines.

1232:

as a sailing vessel is historical. These days a brig is far more likely to be a prison.

880:

most stringently; a brig is not a brigantine, or vice-versa. Hence the different names.

3362:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 3236:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 3113: 2858: 2517: 2408:

But the practical question is, if we decide we do need to disambiguate this meaning of

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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is one that crops up regularly. It's worth noting however, that some of the links to

2012:

In the narrow technical field of sailing rigs, a brig is distinct from a three-masted

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https://web.archive.org/web/20101228161737/http://museum.gov.ns.ca/mma/AtoZ/rigs.html

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https://web.archive.org/web/20101228161737/http://museum.gov.ns.ca/mma/AtoZ/rigs.html

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is one I've sometimes seen authorities use when comparing rigs, but not consistently.

1956: 1318: 1287: 1256: 1211: 1105: 1087: 974: 864: 852: 791: 769: 625: 97:-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other articles, please 3479:

Teacher's Guide for teaching a history class and setting various tasks for students.

2918: 2731: 2685: 2651: 2600: 2487: 2422: 2376: 2318: 2239: 2103: 2065: 2031: 1987: 1971: 1761: 1411: 1123: 1047: 1014: 988: 935: 636: 583:

So of course aswell the Lady Washington is no brig, but brigantine and her foto is

432: 127: 2622:

If "Brig" as used here is the primary meaning, then we do not, as I understand it.

2541:, in that the main problem there is that the subcategories include, for example, 1777:, solution in search of a problem, there's nothing wrong with the current title ( 1253: 3010:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Ship_Rigging_differences_in_schematic_view.png

2445: 2400: 2341: 2198: 1944: 1923: 1897: 1704: 1569: 1341: 1182:, but given that the lead section of this article already refers to a brig as a 1142: 957: 698: 420: 363: 17: 3174:

http://freespace.virgin.net/r.cadwalader/maritime/era/fleetwin.htm#topfleetwing

3368:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 3242:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 2914: 2907: 2899: 2877: 2828: 2512:

PS And, as has been said above, the same arguments also apply to the names of

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as an article title is important, then surely you should propose a rename of

2574:. My suggestion would be, if others think that the argument above rejecting 536: 497: 325: 3340:

http://www.texasnavy.com/History/General/19th_Century_Nautical_Glossary.pdf

549:

Sorry, my English is very bad. I hope, you'll nevertheless understand me.

105:. All interested editors are welcome. To use this banner, please see the 2835:, there seems to be a conflict about how the mainmast should be rigged. 2222: 2173: 2026:

is. It's probably too long-winded for this article at all, let alone the

1900:. This move needs to be reverted immediately for the following reasons: 1390:. Even worse, and makes it sound like it could include smaller sailboats. 2973: 1247: 648:

Apparently the use of these vessels as prison ships led to the use; see

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is very commonly used to describe a military prison, and a town, etc.

2194: 2193:

in modern usage seems ill-defined. Are three-masted rigs such as the

2018:

to the already overly long lead paragraph. This is more about what a

2780:

I'm tired and confused. will someone do this? I'm also lazy today..

2317:, of which all of these, directly or indirectly, are subcategories? 682:

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal.

3350:

http://www.mariner.org/exploration/index.php?type=shiptype&id=3

1798:. It's already been demonstrated that there is a problem: The term 650:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=brig&searchmode=none

168: 144: 1858:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.

617:

said that the brig played a different role in the movie (at least

1703:

was ship-rigged. In other words, it is all about the rig, and so

1695:-class - the only thing that made them different was their rig - 1362:, and that there's no better disambiguator for this article than 863:; the differences in rigging are very significant to the sailor. 570:

is a principally fore-and-aft rig with a square rigged foremast,

447:

There are more articles named brig so went with other uses tag.--

3313: 3139: 2895: 2832: 2681: 2553:(on the grounds that two-masted vessels allegedly aren't ships). 2397:

in sailing circles the word 'ship' still retains its old meaning

2364: 2356: 1952: 1948: 1936: 1919: 1912: 1893: 1778: 1492:

I think you're missing the point. The current usage of the word

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http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/VC/visitor_info/quiz/ship.htm

3164:

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/VC/visitor_info/quiz/ship.htm

2965:

Well, how typical for Americans to forget about us once again.

2221:

As an example of this problem, see the article on the 338-foot

2216:

has three or more masts. I suspect it depends on the authority.

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A scuba diving site that has some information about wrecks. (

3492:

A glossary put together for the website for the Texas Navies

3209:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the

2640:

Exactly. Until and unless evidence is presented and a rough

2078:

It seems to me that a couple of hundred years ago, the word

1358:

This assumes that there is currently no primary meaning for

808:

I obeyed the move request, then reverted it and queried it.

471:

This info is all in the segment "Development of the brig".--

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is absolutely the worst possible title that could be used.

1203:

Knowledge (XXG):Article_titles#Precision_and_disambiguation

1122:, and if not, how to best disambiguate. No change of vote. 1100:

Of course there's also the issue that about 1500 links for

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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http://www.tallships.org/document.asp?cat=693&doc=6823

3150:

for additional information. I made the following changes:

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refers to the whole ship, not just its distinguishing rig.

1380:. My second choice, but just doesn't feel right. The term 1326: 1309: 1295: 1279: 1264: 1241: 1219: 1195: 1150: 1131: 1113: 1095: 1074: 1055: 1041: 1022: 996: 982: 943: 920: 889: 872: 855: 843: 817: 799: 777: 758: 731: 710: 660: 643: 602: 592: 573:

as opposed to a brig which is square rigged on both masts.

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So the question is: Do we need a disambiguator at all?

1687:, a ship-sloop, perhaps things will be a little clearer. 552:

What you describe is no Brig, it" a Brigantine: Brig has

366:

check the work and he removed the stub class rating that

2127:

in the historical sense, or should we be using the term

1046:

Part of the general mess. Getting worse. Hang in there!

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These were added and Looper5920 upgraded class to B.--

362:

page, made additions and destubbed the article. I had

2549:

I think it's unlikely that we'll then remove it from

2176:. In the article lead, and title, if we use the word 1986:

But see above for a formal proposal to reinstate it.

2448:

I will never agree with because it is simply wrong.

588:

misstakes, before no-sailors will begin to lough. --

354:

Needs to be reviewed by Military history WikiProject

222:

This article has been checked against the following

3372:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 3246:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 2421:See above for a formal proposal along these lines. 2204:s? There is a sense in which they are not, in that 307: 221: 1691:shared the same hull design as the vessels of the 1641:, which would describe what you're talking about. 411:The target article does not exist. Suggest adding 2155:, and in some contexts a vessel of any size is a 2470:That's an excellent summary of the case against 1943:This move requires an admin, since the article 1174:Also, I have no opinion on whether a brig is a 851:; both articles state that they are distinct. 3358:This message was posted before February 2018. 3232:This message was posted before February 2018. 652:should we make a note of this in the article? 2305:. But glad that you see the issue. How about 1908:, the consensus of which was against any move 1517:has changed, just as the meaning of the word 782:The articles correctly distinguish between a 8: 3462:May add more to this list on further study. 2974:http://en.wikipedia.org/Russian_brig_Mercury 2486:s belongs in the article, not in the title. 2098:P.S. but I should have said, few ships have 1664:as I can, let's take the following example. 431:if and when it does (assuming it's a town). 368:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Military history 194:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Military history 3477:(3)The references for this article include: 2212:, and another in which they are, in that a 2159:, for example if it carries a cat it's the 1300:It's not even remotely utterly irrelevant. 3204:http://museum.gov.ns.ca/mma/AtoZ/rigs.html 3194:http://museum.gov.ns.ca/mma/AtoZ/rigs.html 2189:But even in this technical sense the word 2048:and related categories and articles. Note 404:redirects here, for an alternate use see: 304: 218: 139: 58: 3312:I have just modified 3 external links on 3138:I have just modified 4 external links on 2230:. Note that we disambiguate this article 1634:, which would describe the type of ship. 607: 457:Must have two square sails to be a brig. 174:This article is within the scope of the 1935:there are now upwards of 1500 links to 141: 60: 30: 786:(two masts, both square rigged) and a 701:, feel free to open a new discussion. 613:The official unofficial PotC website 184:. To use this banner, please see the 3221:to let others know (documentation at 197:Template:WikiProject Military history 7: 3545:Maritime warfare task force articles 2119:Nevertheless, today we use the word 2056:. Is the lead of the article on the 1104:now route to a disambiguation page. 1013:(which I've just added to the DAB). 743:They are not to be confused with a 608:Brig Unicorn = PotC's "Black Pearl"? 87:This article is within the scope of 554:both masts full square-sail-rigged! 49:It is of interest to the following 3114:Talk:Sail-plan#Brig and Brigantine 2474:so far, and it lacks any basis in 2172:English, I think that question is 2016:by virtue of only having two masts 25: 3540:B-Class maritime warfare articles 3535:B-Class military history articles 3316:. Please take a moment to review 3142:. Please take a moment to review 2551:Category:Ships by number of masts 2543:Category:Ships by number of masts 2311:Category:Ships by number of masts 2297:With that in mind, disagree that 2030:, let alone the first paragraph. 2006:I'm not at all comfortable about 1947:cannot be moved straight back to 1410:Interested in other suggestions. 360:Knowledge (XXG):Most wanted stubs 115:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Ships 2823:If you read the descriptions on 2545:, and whatever we end up naming 1707:reads to me exactly the same as 281: 270: 259: 248: 237: 167: 143: 126: 80: 62: 31: 3328:Corrected formatting/usage for 2476:official Knowledge (XXG) policy 1228:The prioritization of the word 1: 3472:23:22, 26 February 2021 (UTC) 3449:21:18, 22 December 2018 (UTC) 3102:17:52, 16 November 2013 (UTC) 3039:article is self-contradicting 2972:See for brig "Mercury" here: 2934:10:44, 31 December 2010 (UTC) 2890:05:10, 31 December 2010 (UTC) 2871:14:17, 30 December 2010 (UTC) 2811:02:27, 28 December 2010 (UTC) 2790:22:41, 27 December 2010 (UTC) 2764:16:13, 27 December 2010 (UTC) 2740:09:04, 27 December 2010 (UTC) 2712:03:19, 27 December 2010 (UTC) 2694:22:06, 26 December 2010 (UTC) 2675:21:26, 26 December 2010 (UTC) 2660:20:05, 26 December 2010 (UTC) 2635:14:46, 26 December 2010 (UTC) 2609:20:22, 26 December 2010 (UTC) 2496:14:37, 26 December 2010 (UTC) 2458:12:55, 26 December 2010 (UTC) 2431:10:45, 26 December 2010 (UTC) 2389:10:21, 26 December 2010 (UTC) 2350:09:15, 26 December 2010 (UTC) 2327:21:11, 25 December 2010 (UTC) 2267:20:14, 25 December 2010 (UTC) 2248:19:04, 25 December 2010 (UTC) 2141:16:30, 25 December 2010 (UTC) 2112:11:35, 26 December 2010 (UTC) 2074:09:51, 25 December 2010 (UTC) 2040:05:33, 25 December 2010 (UTC) 1996:10:48, 26 December 2010 (UTC) 1980:21:11, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 1965:20:03, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 1880:20:53, 29 December 2010 (UTC) 1852:20:11, 29 December 2010 (UTC) 1838:16:27, 29 December 2010 (UTC) 1812:16:27, 29 December 2010 (UTC) 1791:08:02, 29 December 2010 (UTC) 1770:07:57, 29 December 2010 (UTC) 1753:10:48, 29 December 2010 (UTC) 1736:21:41, 28 December 2010 (UTC) 1721:21:30, 28 December 2010 (UTC) 1653:19:22, 28 December 2010 (UTC) 1615:20:09, 28 December 2010 (UTC) 1582:17:38, 28 December 2010 (UTC) 1545:17:39, 28 December 2010 (UTC) 1531:17:30, 28 December 2010 (UTC) 1476:10:12, 28 December 2010 (UTC) 1453:01:17, 28 December 2010 (UTC) 1435:20:56, 27 December 2010 (UTC) 1420:10:41, 26 December 2010 (UTC) 1327:20:03, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 1310:19:56, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 1296:19:34, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 1280:19:27, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 1265:19:14, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 1242:19:02, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 1220:18:36, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 1196:18:24, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 1151:17:18, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 1132:21:34, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 1114:17:07, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 1096:17:05, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 1075:16:55, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 1056:20:54, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 1042:16:52, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 1023:20:54, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 1001:Not quite that simple... See 997:20:54, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 983:16:49, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 944:10:03, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 921:05:49, 24 December 2010 (UTC) 890:23:34, 23 December 2010 (UTC) 873:22:45, 23 December 2010 (UTC) 856:13:17, 23 December 2010 (UTC) 844:12:47, 23 December 2010 (UTC) 818:11:41, 23 December 2010 (UTC) 800:15:06, 23 December 2010 (UTC) 778:11:35, 23 December 2010 (UTC) 759:11:42, 23 December 2010 (UTC) 732:09:51, 23 December 2010 (UTC) 711:03:17, 31 December 2010 (UTC) 3300:12:59, 8 November 2016 (UTC) 2956:02:38, 15 January 2011 (UTC) 747:which has different rigging. 661:23:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC) 525:20:48, 13 January 2007 (UTC) 516:19:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC) 491:18:13, 13 January 2007 (UTC) 476:18:09, 13 January 2007 (UTC) 467:01:45, 13 January 2007 (UTC) 452:16:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC) 443:16:31, 13 January 2007 (UTC) 384:20:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC) 375:16:19, 13 January 2007 (UTC) 177:Military history WikiProject 3530:All WikiProject Ships pages 3439:, usually abbreviated "bm". 3126:13:08, 9 January 2016 (UTC) 3032:14:16, 7 October 2012 (UTC) 2996:07:05, 26 August 2012 (UTC) 2537:They are weakest regarding 2238:. This is not an accident! 822:At 09:46, 23 December 2010 644:13:25, 5 October 2007 (UTC) 379:Assessment was made below-- 334:Maritime warfare task force 93:, a project to improve all 3561: 3389:(last update: 5 June 2024) 3309:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 3263:(last update: 5 June 2024) 3135:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 3056:is in contradiction with: 2570:But they're strongest for 1915:without any disambiguation 1406:. The worst of all worlds. 415:This article is about the 242:Referencing and citation: 118:Template:WikiProject Ships 3510:20:51, 1 March 2021 (UTC) 3437:Builder's Old Measurement 3426:19:36, 25 July 2017 (UTC) 2906:should be a re-direct to 2580:Category:Two-masted ships 2572:Category:Two-masted ships 2547:Category:Two-masted ships 2514:Category:Two-masted ships 2299:Category:two-masted ships 2046:Category:Two-masted ships 948:This takes the biscuit - 626:20:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC) 540:20:44, 9 March 2007 (UTC) 501:20:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC) 332: 303: 200:military history articles 162: 75: 57: 2946:That is one sexy photo! 2520:, and many, many others. 2168:We should of course use 1861:Please do not modify it. 1673:Cruizer-class brig-sloop 1425:(boat) or (vessel) ? -- 901:Brigantine (old article) 832:Brigantine (old article) 685:Please do not modify it. 619:in the discussion forums 603:16:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC) 593:18:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC) 435:17:17, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC) 3305:External links modified 3131:External links modified 3078:Development of the brig 3076:The information in the 3048:Development of the brig 1404:Brig (sailing ship rig) 928:Oppose and speedy close 897:Procedural speedy close 308:Associated task forces: 253:Coverage and accuracy: 101:, or contribute to the 3525:B-Class Ships articles 2902:articles are correct. 2730:is an excellent idea. 2369:HMS Grasshopper (1813) 2131:in its current sense? 1400:, and needlessly long. 952:has moved the article 329: 286:Supporting materials: 214: 39:This article is rated 2022:is than about what a 1348:brig (disambiguation) 1007:ship (disambiguation) 966:Brig (disambiguation) 964:is now a redirect to 328: 213: 43:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 3454:Article deficiencies 3370:regular verification 3244:regular verification 1396:. No advantage over 1335:Alternative proposal 358:I came here off the 3360:After February 2018 3234:After February 2018 3213:parameter below to 3108:Brig and Brigantine 3070:Let me explain why: 2307:Category:Ship types 1628:articles, such as: 1394:Brig (sailing ship) 545:NO Brig, Brigantine 275:Grammar and style: 228:for B-class status: 3497:Howard I. Chapelle 3414:InternetArchiveBot 3365:InternetArchiveBot 3288:InternetArchiveBot 3239:InternetArchiveBot 2904:Hermaphrodite brig 2825:Hermaphrodite_brig 2442:Brig (sailing rig) 2375:as pointed out by 1892:moved the article 1388:Brig (sailing rig) 419:. For the town in 393:Text removed from 389:Brig, Switzerland? 330: 215: 182:list of open tasks 103:project discussion 45:content assessment 3483:WP:CONTEXTMATTERS 3390: 3264: 3092:comment added by 3035: 3018:comment added by 2999: 2982:comment added by 2917:is a brig-rigged 2876:There's also the 2716:I think you mean 2210:fully rigged ship 2182:fully rigged ship 1699:was brig-rigged, 1067:Anthony Appleyard 932:assume good faith 836:Anthony Appleyard 824:User:InternetMeme 810:Anthony Appleyard 751:Anthony Appleyard 425:Brig, Switzerland 406:Brig, Switzerland 351: 350: 347: 346: 343: 342: 339: 338: 299: 298: 186:full instructions 138: 137: 134: 133: 107:full instructions 90:WikiProject Ships 16:(Redirected from 3552: 3502:ThoughtIdRetired 3500:of the article. 3488:R. M. Ballantyne 3464:ThoughtIdRetired 3424: 3415: 3388: 3387: 3366: 3298: 3289: 3262: 3261: 3240: 3228: 3161: 3104: 3034: 3012: 2998: 2976: 2361:full-rigged ship 1933:Most importantly 1885:Revert this move 1863: 1011:full rigged ship 903:), then makes a 687: 641: 615:Keep to the Code 315: 305: 289: 285: 284: 278: 274: 273: 267: 263: 262: 256: 252: 251: 245: 241: 240: 219: 202: 201: 198: 195: 192: 191:Military history 171: 164: 163: 158: 151:Military history 147: 140: 130: 123: 122: 119: 116: 113: 99:join the project 84: 77: 76: 66: 59: 42: 36: 35: 27: 21: 18:Talk:Brig (ship) 3560: 3559: 3555: 3554: 3553: 3551: 3550: 3549: 3515: 3514: 3456: 3433: 3418: 3413: 3381: 3374:have permission 3364: 3322:this simple FaQ 3307: 3292: 3287: 3255: 3248:have permission 3238: 3222: 3155: 3148:this simple FaQ 3133: 3110: 3087: 3041: 3013: 3005: 3003:Usefull Diagram 2977: 2963: 2944: 2821: 2700:military prison 2100:diesel-electric 2004: 1918:Disambiguating 1887: 1868: 1859: 1337: 683: 677: 669: 637: 633: 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2328: 2324: 2320: 2316: 2312: 2308: 2304: 2300: 2296: 2295: 2294: 2293: 2292: 2291: 2283: 2278: 2277: 2276: 2275: 2274: 2273: 2268: 2264: 2260: 2255: 2254: 2253: 2252: 2249: 2245: 2241: 2237: 2233: 2229: 2228: 2224: 2220: 2219: 2215: 2211: 2208:is short for 2207: 2203: 2200: 2196: 2192: 2188: 2187: 2183: 2179: 2175: 2171: 2167: 2166: 2162: 2158: 2154: 2149: 2148:current sense 2145: 2144: 2143: 2142: 2138: 2134: 2130: 2126: 2122: 2113: 2109: 2105: 2101: 2097: 2096: 2095: 2094: 2090: 2086: 2085: 2084: 2081: 2076: 2075: 2071: 2067: 2063: 2059: 2055: 2053: 2047: 2042: 2041: 2037: 2033: 2029: 2025: 2021: 2017: 2015: 2009: 2001: 1997: 1993: 1989: 1985: 1984: 1981: 1977: 1973: 1969: 1968: 1967: 1966: 1962: 1958: 1954: 1950: 1946: 1938: 1934: 1931: 1929: 1925: 1921: 1917: 1914: 1910: 1907: 1903: 1902: 1901: 1899: 1895: 1891: 1884: 1882: 1881: 1877: 1873: 1865: 1862: 1856: 1855: 1854: 1853: 1849: 1845: 1844:Sturmvogel 66 1840: 1839: 1835: 1831: 1827: 1826: 1822: 1819: 1813: 1809: 1805: 1801: 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3283: 3258:source check 3237: 3231: 3218: 3214: 3210: 3208: 3137: 3134: 3111: 3088:— Preceding 3083:on the Ocean 3081: 3080:section has 3077: 3075: 3069: 3068: 3060: 3055: 3047: 3043:The Section 3042: 3014:— Preceding 3006: 2978:— Preceding 2971: 2967: 2964: 2945: 2942:Brig Niagara 2919:sloop-of-war 2856: 2851: 2846:Meanwhile, 2845: 2840: 2822: 2814: 2800: 2756:InternetMeme 2721: 2717: 2664: 2621: 2619: 2579: 2575: 2571: 2550: 2546: 2538: 2483: 2479: 2471: 2413: 2409: 2396: 2337: 2335: 2302: 2280:the section 2235: 2231: 2225: 2213: 2209: 2205: 2201: 2190: 2181: 2177: 2169: 2160: 2156: 2152: 2147: 2133:InternetMeme 2128: 2124: 2120: 2118: 2088: 2079: 2077: 2061: 2057: 2051: 2049: 2043: 2023: 2019: 2011: 2010:which added 2005: 1942: 1932: 1906:InternetMeme 1890:InternetMeme 1888: 1872:InternetMeme 1869: 1860: 1857: 1841: 1830:InternetMeme 1828: 1824: 1823: 1820: 1816: 1804:InternetMeme 1799: 1795: 1774: 1757: 1700: 1696: 1692: 1688: 1683: 1676: 1667: 1660: 1645:InternetMeme 1643: 1638: 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1570:Brig (ship) 1515:manufacture 1342:brig (ship) 1317:argument. 1034:Martocticvs 958:Brig (ship) 882:Martocticvs 703:Vegaswikian 699:brig (ship) 667:POP Culture 421:Switzerland 364:User:Beland 264:Structure: 3519:Categories 3441:Acad Ronin 3421:Report bug 3295:Report bug 3118:62.19.46.1 2948:ViniTheHat 2915:brig-sloop 2908:brigantine 2900:brigantine 2878:brig-sloop 2863:ViniTheHat 2829:brigantine 2803:ViniTheHat 2782:ViniTheHat 2704:ViniTheHat 2667:ViniTheHat 2174:rhetorical 2161:ship's cat 1728:ViniTheHat 1709:BMW (Audi) 1607:ViniTheHat 1537:ViniTheHat 1378:Brig (rig) 828:Brigantine 788:brigantine 745:brigantine 720:Brigantine 623:SpikeJones 559:Brigantine 513:Looper5920 507:Assessment 481:On merging 395:brigantine 3404:this tool 3397:this tool 3278:this tool 3271:this tool 3158:dead link 2819:confusion 2726:. Yes, a 2723:namespace 2680:Yes, see 2642:consensus 2516:and even 2373:this edit 2044:See also 2008:this edit 1818:objects. 1697:Racehorse 1677:Racehorse 1668:Racehorse 1398:...(ship) 1345:and move 1081:Well, my 737:But page 658:Wowaconia 600:Wowaconia 522:Wowaconia 488:Wowaconia 473:Wowaconia 464:Wowaconia 449:Wowaconia 440:Wowaconia 381:Wowaconia 372:Wowaconia 3410:Cheers.— 3284:Cheers.— 3090:unsigned 3028:contribs 3016:unsigned 2992:contribs 2980:unsigned 2801:awesome! 2227:Pretoria 2223:schooner 1951:without 1783:Kotniski 1339:Move to 865:Czrisher 697:form of 225:criteria 156:Maritime 3318:my edit 3211:checked 3162:tag to 3144:my edit 2859:spanker 2732:Andrewa 2728:hatnote 2686:Andrewa 2652:Andrewa 2601:Andrewa 2488:Andrewa 2423:Andrewa 2377:Andrewa 2319:Andrewa 2240:Andrewa 2170:current 2104:Andrewa 2066:Andrewa 2032:Andrewa 2028:WP:lead 1988:Andrewa 1972:Andrewa 1796:Support 1762:Mjroots 1693:Cruizer 1661:because 1412:Andrewa 1124:Andrewa 1048:Andrewa 1030:Comment 1015:Andrewa 989:Andrewa 936:Andrewa 639:MrZaius 433:Andrewa 41:B-class 3431:Weight 3219:failed 3154:Added 2984:Troske 2342:Ykraps 2195:barque 1775:Oppose 1758:Oppose 1671:was a 1158:Oppose 1143:Ykraps 1139:Oppose 909:WP:MAD 878:Oppose 861:Oppose 853:Powers 849:Oppose 826:moved 766:Oppose 741:says " 423:, see 47:scale. 2338:still 2146:This 1701:Snake 1689:Snake 1684:Snake 1178:or a 675:Move? 112:Ships 70:Ships 3506:talk 3468:talk 3445:talk 3314:Brig 3215:true 3140:Brig 3122:talk 3116:. -- 3098:talk 3024:talk 2988:talk 2952:talk 2930:talk 2926:Shem 2898:and 2896:brig 2894:The 2886:talk 2880:... 2867:talk 2833:brig 2831:and 2807:talk 2786:talk 2760:talk 2736:talk 2720:not 2718:name 2708:talk 2690:talk 2682:ship 2671:talk 2656:talk 2631:talk 2627:Shem 2605:talk 2492:talk 2484:ship 2454:talk 2427:talk 2414:ship 2410:brig 2385:talk 2381:Shem 2365:brig 2359:and 2357:ship 2346:talk 2323:talk 2282:soap 2263:talk 2244:talk 2236:boat 2232:ship 2214:ship 2206:ship 2202:ship 2197:and 2191:ship 2178:ship 2157:ship 2153:boat 2137:talk 2129:ship 2125:ship 2121:ship 2108:talk 2080:ship 2070:talk 2062:ship 2058:brig 2052:ship 2036:talk 2024:brig 2020:ship 2014:ship 2002:Soap 1992:talk 1976:talk 1961:talk 1957:Shem 1953:Brig 1949:Brig 1937:Brig 1928:ship 1920:Brig 1913:Brig 1894:Brig 1876:talk 1848:talk 1834:talk 1808:talk 1800:Brig 1787:talk 1781:).-- 1779:Brig 1766:talk 1749:talk 1732:talk 1717:talk 1682:HMS 1666:HMS 1649:talk 1611:talk 1578:talk 1541:talk 1527:talk 1519:ship 1494:ship 1472:talk 1449:talk 1431:talk 1416:talk 1382:brig 1364:ship 1360:brig 1353:brig 1323:talk 1319:Shem 1306:talk 1292:talk 1288:Shem 1276:talk 1261:talk 1257:Shem 1238:talk 1230:brig 1216:talk 1212:Shem 1192:talk 1184:ship 1176:ship 1162:ship 1147:talk 1128:talk 1120:brig 1110:talk 1106:Shem 1102:Brig 1092:talk 1088:Shem 1071:talk 1052:talk 1038:talk 1019:talk 1009:and 1003:ship 993:talk 979:talk 975:Shem 970:Brig 962:Brig 954:Brig 940:talk 917:talk 886:talk 869:talk 840:talk 814:talk 796:talk 792:Shem 784:brig 774:talk 770:Shem 755:talk 739:Brig 728:talk 716:Brig 707:talk 585:here 537:Akb4 498:Akb4 402:Brig 95:Ship 3378:RfC 3348:to 3338:to 3252:RfC 3229:). 3217:or 3202:to 3192:to 3182:to 3172:to 2702:? 2301:is 1922:as 1896:to 1745:PBS 1637:2) 1630:1) 1468:PBS 1427:PBS 1351:to 1255:. 1083:OED 960:. 956:to 830:to 561:: 3521:: 3508:) 3485:?) 3470:) 3447:) 3391:. 3386:}} 3382:{{ 3265:. 3260:}} 3256:{{ 3227:}} 3223:{{ 3160:}} 3156:{{ 3124:) 3100:) 3030:) 3026:• 2994:) 2990:• 2954:) 2932:) 2913:A 2888:) 2869:) 2861:? 2827:, 2809:) 2788:) 2762:) 2738:) 2710:) 2692:) 2684:. 2673:) 2658:) 2633:) 2607:) 2494:) 2456:) 2429:) 2387:) 2348:) 2325:) 2309:, 2284:.) 2265:) 2246:) 2139:) 2110:) 2072:) 2064:. 2038:) 1994:) 1978:) 1963:) 1878:) 1850:) 1836:) 1810:) 1789:) 1768:) 1751:) 1734:) 1719:) 1651:) 1613:) 1580:) 1543:) 1529:) 1474:) 1451:) 1433:) 1418:) 1366:. 1355:. 1325:) 1308:) 1294:) 1278:) 1263:) 1252:, 1249:, 1240:) 1218:) 1207:If 1194:) 1149:) 1130:) 1112:) 1094:) 1073:) 1054:) 1040:) 1021:) 1005:, 995:) 981:) 942:) 919:) 911:. 888:) 871:) 842:) 834:. 816:) 798:) 776:) 757:) 730:) 718:→ 709:) 656:-- 397:: 314:/ 154:: 3504:( 3466:( 3443:( 3423:) 3419:( 3406:. 3399:. 3297:) 3293:( 3280:. 3273:. 3120:( 3096:( 3022:( 2986:( 2950:( 2928:( 2884:( 2865:( 2805:( 2784:( 2758:( 2734:( 2706:( 2688:( 2669:( 2654:( 2629:( 2603:( 2582:. 2490:( 2452:( 2425:( 2403:. 2383:( 2344:( 2321:( 2261:( 2242:( 2184:. 2135:( 2106:( 2068:( 2054:s 2034:( 1990:( 1974:( 1959:( 1874:( 1846:( 1832:( 1806:( 1785:( 1764:( 1747:( 1730:( 1715:( 1647:( 1609:( 1576:( 1539:( 1525:( 1470:( 1447:( 1429:( 1414:( 1321:( 1304:( 1290:( 1274:( 1259:( 1236:( 1214:( 1190:( 1164:: 1145:( 1126:( 1108:( 1090:( 1069:( 1050:( 1036:( 1017:( 991:( 977:( 938:( 915:( 884:( 867:( 838:( 812:( 794:( 772:( 753:( 726:( 705:( 427:. 188:. 109:. 53:: 20:)

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