Talk:Budapest - Knowledge (XXG)

917:"Hungary lies between 45°45' and 48°35' north latitude, roughly halfway between the Equator and the North Pole, in the temperate zone according to the solar climate classification. The climate of Hungary is very variable as it is equally affected by the high-moisture oceanic air masses with more balanced temperature, the fundamentally dry continental air masses with extreme temperature fluctuations, and the mild, high humidity air masses coming from the Mediterranean Sea. In summer, most of the air masses (60-70%) are of marine origin, whereas during the cold winter months, continental air masses are more dominant. The northwest-southeast orientation of the distribution of meteorological elements reflects the influence of the Atlantic Ocean to the northwest and the Mediterranean Sea to the southeast." 3140:

maps, which means even a city has more climate. For example Buda-Pest (united city) is big, Buda has mountains, Pest is flat, Buda is always more cold than Pest, they have very different climate within the same united city, that is my personal experience, and all Budapest citizens know that. The provided Hungarian wiki writes also different and provide a complex situation of the country, and we learn that our climate is continental in general according to our knowledge. I contacted with the Hungarian meteorolgy service and they cannot confirm that "subtropical" thing. Köppen does not use those terms,

1498: 2799:

classification region. First Budapest will not have suddenly have different vegetable just because a 100 year old tempeature critera goes above a few tenth of Celsiuses. Second Köppen classification has nothing to do with man made environment as the vegetable is artificial in a city mainly. Third Cfa does not say anything about humidity it says: "uniform distribution of precipitation and a hot summer climate type". It is misleading to use an obsolete expression (humid subtropic), first because C class is called "Temperate" and it is not humid, second because what "

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regions based on the average temperature during the vegetation period and the aridity index. The resulted climatic zones arise from the combined application of the two criteria. According to the Péczely classification, most of Hungary falls into the warm-dry category. The warm-dry regions are generally surrounded by warm and moderately warm zones (Figure 1), while moderately cool and cool regions can be found only in high-altitude areas. The Bükk Plateau is the only area with cool-wet climatic conditions."

255: 616: 1770: 791: 427: 406: 785:"Hungary is located on the border of four climate zones, its weather is shaped by the moist continental air masses in the east, the oceanic air masses in the west, the arctic air masses in the north and the south-southwest Mediterranean influence. The average annual temperature is 8–11 °C, with a relatively high fluctuation of 20–25 °C. The average temperature is the lowest in January, 0 – -4 °C, and the highest in July, 18–22 °C." 950:"Hungary lies in the temperate zone, its climate is very variable. One of the main reasons for variability is that the oceanic climate with more balanced temperature and precipitation, the continental climate with extreme temperatures and little precipitation, and the Mediterranean climate, which is dry in summer and rainy in winter, all have an effect. Any of these climate types can become dominant for a longer or shorter time." 569: 519: 312: 288: 2696:, especially if you use the -3C isotherm for C and D climates. However, look at the rule for "b" (warm summer) in the Köppen sources provided -- for simplicity's sake let's use Beck, but this is a highly standard rule that exists in Peel, Kriticos, etc. The rule for b is the hottest month averaging below 22C. Look at the weatherbox; the July average is 23C. Therefore the third letter has to be "a". 437: 215: 1732:! Also because the article states that is not a Köppen expression ( "However, while SOME climatologists have opted to describe this climate type as a "humid subtropical climate", Köppen himself never used this term." There are no eight months above 10 C average. And also because the characteristics describes in that article not covers the situation. Characteristics described in 246: 2644:

comes from, but based on other calculations - made by meteorologists - Cf is typical for Hungary, the 3rd letter is more b and not a, as we wrote it. I am sending it as an attachment, e.g. a Péczely Gy. Climatology. National Textbook Publisher, Budapest, the category found in the book, and 2 pieces of literature written by the staff of the ELTE Department of Meteorology:

322: 2803:" article describes in its sections is not true for Budapest. Trewartha uses the "humid subtropical" experession, so if you want to use it use also its criteria, but not Köppen. Trewartha's criteria is to have at least 8 months with a mean temperature greater than 10 °C, which is not true for Budapest. It is much more correct to call it as it is bolded in the article: 805:"It is advisable to examine Hungary's climate in the context of its immediate natural environment, the Carpathian Basin. The climate of this region is determined by the fact that it is located at the intersection of three major European climate areas - continental, oceanic and Mediterranean. The country's climate can best be characterized as humid continental." 755: 1441:, which Budapest has), using weatherboxes to override maps is standard practice on Knowledge (XXG). We use the rules provided by the map sources (which are consistent per source if not per classification), not the map itself, to determine climate types; I have done that exact thing on this talk page. You can use the rules yourself to verify if you wish. 1916:

not be a good method (Köppen only say "no dry season"), and all other method not describes it as "humid". You may not agree with me, but please cite any expert on meteorolgy who says Budapest is "humid subtropcal" except your own calculation on a table, which does not necessarily contains true data, see offical average values here:

4016:

Just checked the source. It is Pestszentlőrinc indeed. I know why it has higher importance, because it was recorded in the international airport which is located in Pestszentlőrinc. And since it was provided by the national meteo service, I think it would be fine to have this location for the weather

2412:

First of all, why are you leaping back and forth between the two discussion venues? Second of all, most Cfa climates are in that range; and more of them used to be before global warming. Climate types in Köppen are not determined by latitude. What Britannica clearly states is that Cfa is to be termed

2076:

That is the main controversy: you are citing temperature data definitions then you are making conclusion on humidity. (And naming it a way which was not used by Köppen). Köppen can be used of course, but cant be used to make accurate categorization on humidity. Also there is no any proof that Köppen

1915:

to categorize cities with methods based on average temperature solely, while there are other methods showing different values, and also because Köppen grades were not made for such little areas, and not at all for man made environments! Here is an academic paper showing that only temperature data can

1035:

Hungary's climate can be classified according to two prominent global climate classification systems. Based on the Köppen classification, a substantial part of the country falls under the Cfa warm-temperate climate zone characterized by a uniform distribution of precipitation and a hot summer climate

893:

would accept a humid subtropical designation for their city either, but Köppen classifies them this way; and while I certainly have my problems with the status quo on Köppen, it is standardized, common, and enjoys use in academic sources. If you want to add another climate classification, you're very

835:

However, much more importantly; "subtropical" does not have one definition, and has different boundaries based on climate classification. The standard in the most commonly used Köppen classification is the one I've described above. In this definition, and with the most current climate data (which the

3961:

The weatherbox does not really refer to any specific station. I wanted to collect extreme temperature values, so I used both stations available in NOAA/WMO for that. But then I found the extreme values for Budapest in a single page from Hungaromet. I cleaned up the references and forgot removing the

3553:

I mean obviously they are not exactly the same (though they are definitely similar temperature-wise if you actually check the weatherboxes), but Köppen put them in the same zone (Dfa) pre-industrially, and they are now, because of climate change, (largely) Cfa. It has been established long ago (it’s

3420:

I never said that Budapest could only be Cfa. In fact I specifically put forward the Cfa/Dfa wording. If it seemed like I said that, I might have explained myself insufficiently. I said that the urban core of Budapest is, by now, Cfa, and we call Cfa humid subtropical on Knowledge (XXG). That is the

3235:

Because Köppen has specific rules: Cfa is used for a place that has winter means between 0-18C, summers warmer than 22C, and has enough precipitation year round. The weather station given in the article satisfies all of these rules. Some parts of Budapest may be Dfa, and if there's station data that

2887:

It is misleading to use an obsolete expression (humid subtropic), first because C class is called "Temperate" and it is not humid, second because what "subtropics" article describes in its sections is not true for Budapest. Trewartha uses the "humid subtropical" experession, so if you want to use it

1477:

You are right that the reference on the page is insufficient, but not becuase it's a map, it's a self-reference (from Knowledge (XXG) to Knowledge (XXG)). I did not realize this was the case, I was simply talking about standard practice. I will replace it with an actual source now (though I've given

1462:

Your marked reference is only that map image, and you said that your reference is not good to represent Hungary, but you need to override your ref? So you claim that you provide sa wrong ref? So you say Budapest is subtropical, but Hungary outside Budapest is continental? Because your referenced map

1062:

If you want to add Budapest's class per Trewartha (i.e "Budapest is humid subtropical according to Köppen, and oceanic according to Trewartha" or similar), you are, again, very welcome to do so. But we're not removing the most common climate classification because it does not match local perceptions

1050:

As far as the Köppen map is concerned, by the way, we use weatherboxes, not maps to determine city climate on Knowledge (XXG), as weatherboxes tend to be more recent and accurate. According to the weatherbox, Budapest is humid subtropical per Köppen and oceanic per Trewartha. To see how we determine

3396:

I see the issue is the naming convention here, I have no time to involve these weather things in other articles, I am interested only Hungarian topics, but using "subtropical" term for Hungary show us, as many Hungarians users are opposing that your decided naming convention are not perfect for use

3337:

I see you admit that some part of Budapest can be Dfa, then why do you cherry pick Cfa only? Btw when I asked the Hungarian meterology service they said Hungary is rather Cfb for the country than Cfa. And in the Köppen maps, I see many patches, the climate is not unified. Also I emphasied that Buda

3217:

Hi, in the Koppen maps I can see many areas in Hungary even in Budapest as Dfa Dfb Cfa Cfb patches, so the climate map is not unified, so I do not understand why it needs cherry pick only one and emphasize this that the cherry picked one would be true for the whole area. Morover Koppen does not use

2919:

suggestion, we do not use the term in any weatherbox I am aware of, and I've been around a lot of weatherboxes. If you want a general change, again, you're welcome to seek consensus in a more general forum. However I know very well that Knowledge (XXG) uniformly uses humid subtropical for Cfa, and

1481:

I think part of the problem is that -- and excuse my educated guess/assumption here -- you do not know how the Köppen classification works. Maps of the classification are only a result of the rules being applied in a certain resolution and climate normal, and are drawn exclusively using the rules I

3148:

I suppose in Hungary the local Hungarians know better the climate than others who are not living there, I also do not think that it deserve ANI because we the Hungarian local people does not know or does not understand that our country would be "subtropical"... I also do not understand why we need

2643:

As we also write on our website, we do not use the Köppen categorization very much, because the country falls roughly into one category. At the same time, it is understandable that in a worldwide comparison this has a right to exist. I don't remember exactly where the classification on our website

2222:

and it states that Cfa CAN BE called such or as well as "Warm temperate climat" this expression is even bolded in the lead. Also it cites the the expression had an other criteria 8 monts over averag 10 C which is not true for Bp. Also not true that it is between "latitudes 25° and 40°". Also not

1107:

For our first letter, we have to first establish that the area is not arid (B), and with 532mm of precipitation, the climate is above the aridity threshold for this temperature. That gets rid of B. For A, C, D, E we have to look at temperature. It is not A, as the coldest month is below 18C. It is

3534:

I think comparing New York and Budapest is total irrevelant, both are on total different continents, New York locates next to the ocean, Budapest inside the continent. New York at 40 degree N (like Madrid (Spain), Athen (Greece), Ankara (Turkey)) while Budapest is more north at 47 decree. And the

3279:

argued that some parts of Budapest have winters that are exactly 0C, I proposed a “borderline Cfa/Dfa” wording. They promptly rejected this by calling it a “POV-push”. The dispute here is not about the specifics of stations necessarily; I’ve already pointed out that the new, above-freezing winter

2822:

You are arguing that climate is shifting, because of global warming . How you can not understand that Köppen Cfa areas was used to be found in the Humid subtopic zone, but it is not anymore true. Köppen itself was made to describe situation for the types of vegetation occurring in a given climate

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1587:

The maps say what they say because of different (almost exclusively older) climate normals. Older climate normals would put many cities which are humid subtropical now into the hot-summer humid continental zone. There's also another problem of resolution; maps can only represent a fixed amount of

3139:

also a Hungarian user), and no any Hungarians know about this. Just I am looking out my window and I see a big snow... in that allegedly "subtropical" country. I also provided many Köppen maps which does not support that claim. Morover I see Hungary and even Budapest has more Köppen color in the

1860:

Why there are different words for coldest month average, and for the maximum, saying at coldest average and at least one month with average. I think it means you should select the coldest month average every year, and then make an average for the period, and it should not be understand 1 coldest

1745:

931:

characterized by long warm seasons. These climate classification systems are inadequate in demonstrating the climatic variations among different regions in Hungary. To address this, György Péczely developed a method specifically applicable to Hungary that categorizes the heat and water supply of

1740:

Dfa = Hot-summer humid continental climate; coldest month averaging below 0 °C (32 °F) (or −3 °C (27 °F)), at least one month's average temperature above 22 °C (71.6 °F), and at least four months averaging above 10 °C (50 °F). No significant precipitation difference between seasons (neither the

1348:

and many other cities under 30cm/a foot of snowfall, and yet they are all considered humid subtropical by Köppen. Please understand that it is not up to us what Köppen zone a city is in, and that Köppen is the most commonly used climate classification. Other classifications are also welcome of

1256:

First of all, none of these things are criteria in the Köppen climate classification. Köppen cares about thresholds and such, not airmass patterns or descriptive statements. The city's coldest month is 1.4C. The Köppen threshold for D (continental) is 0C; therefore Budapest is C, not D. As its

3538:

Because you made up a not perfect naming convention then you want to force this to every cities? Sorry but I see Hungarian users will understand this, go here ask the citizens of Budapest about "subtropical", I think all of them will laughing. Would you blame all Hungarians because of that?

3421:

full extent of what I said. If we want to take suburban stations into account, Budapest would be borderline humid subtropical and humid continental. I have no problem with that wording. It was indeed JSoos who rejected that, arguing for a removal of humid subtropical entirely. In their words:

1137:

scenarios in which Trewartha would classify Budapest as continental, but only if we use less common (2/4C) thresholds for continental climates. As far as I am aware this is only done for countries further away from the ocean than Hungary (Turkey uses 2C, for example). Using the most common

2766:

This is a genuine problem in this argument. I explain stuff that has been standard Knowledge (XXG) practice for years, and each time you rotate to one of three arguments in a never-ending cycle, not acknowledging that I explained the reasoning behind what you just asked (and your venues to

2593:. Maps are not used to determine Köppen zones; Köppen zones are determined straight from the mean temperature and precipitation sections in climate data (in this case the weatherbox on the article), which are then used to create maps. The process (that I'm copying from earlier) was as such: 1583:

would be humid subtropical, which is indicated in the Köppen classification by the letters Cfa. You will find that the weather station fulfills the criteria for Cfa. Please do the calculations, and if you are unable to, please have the humility to not call my standard practice calculations

1030:

I don't know how to respond to this at this point. Obviously emic classifications do not view Hungary as subtropical, and Köppen really only views the warmer parts as subtropical. But you cite a source from the Hungarian Meteorological service, the only text-source here mentioning Köppen

2599:

For A, C, D, E we have to look at temperature. It is not A, as the coldest month is below 18C. It is not E, because its warmest month is above 10C. Therefore it can only be C or D. With a January temperature of 1.4C, the city stays above the freezing mark and therefore is considered

3800:

I also did not make up any naming convention. Knowledge (XXG) pages have been calling Cfa climates humid subtropical for years, maybe for more than a decade at this point. I just do not agree with a change for only Budapest when no other major city page calls Cfa by any other name.

2839:? All of these cities used to either be oceanic or continental, and now Köppen classifies them as Cfa. Do you want a general reconsideration of how these zones are used on Knowledge (XXG) pages, or is it just Budapest that bothers you? If it is the latter, that's essentially 3144:

also mentioned that "subtropical" term was accepted by some users in the past for wikipedia, that is why need to follow that, I rather think we need follow academic sources regarding the exact definiton of the climate of a country instead of voting and rendering terms to

1944:

The key to the main climates, characterized by the first two letters of the classification, is described in Tab. 1. The annual mean near-surface (2 m) temperature is de- noted by Tann and the monthly mean temperatures of the warmest and coldest months by Tmax and Tmin,

1865:

These all mean the same thing; the month with the coldest mean temperature. No source that I know defines the Köppen zones with the "coldest month of each year", neither have I seen any climatologist work with this. In fact most climate charts do not even mention such

3318:

You mentioned the large size of the city, this one is important. The data I found for Pestszenlorinc (sorry for writing issues) shows much colder temperatures and chilly winters that can make it continental, so it’s better to say that it has temperate to continental

1184:. The precipitation requirement for semi-arid is 20 times the average temperature + a number depending on how the precipitation is organized; for Budapest this would be 252 + 140, so 392. The city is not semi-arid according to Köppen no matter its temperature zone. 2164:. I am tired by the constant accusations, and this arguing style. You have your edit, I will not revert despite the fact that edits like these should wait until consensus is established. I have notified WikiProjects and article talk pages, maybe they can chime in. 1941:

I have never in my life seen climate data with a data point of "coldest month in an average year". It's just not something we've ever used on Knowledge (XXG), which would entail redoing every climate class on this encyclopedia. Kottek also defines Tmin this way:

3945:

Is there any reason why we are using the Pestszentlőrinc station and not the downtown one? We can still add "closely bordering continental" if we link to the data in the body text, but I don't see why that would be our station of choice for our one weather box.

3873:

An RfC related to the climate discussion on this page; specifically whether generalized climate types (e.g. humid temperate for humid subtropical and oceanic) are appropriate in climate descriptions where climate classifications conflict, is taking place at

3631:

I’m sure doing the same to other cities that are Cfa in Koppen but not subtropical in Trewartha is am OK choice. There were a lot of discussions for New York and Milan before and now we have such thing for Budapest and maybe even Vienna and Geneva for the

1753:. I think man made microlimates in cities with lot of stone surfaces should also be considered, and should be corrected with the neighboring climates, otherwise it can show very different values depending on the place of the probes within even 100 metres. 2126:

Köppen is the most common climate classification. It is used worldwide in reliable sources, and is used in other cities with microclimates (which is all large cities). We are not looking for proof; we are looking for reliable sources, which use Köppen.

1953:

to use the Köppen climate classification with average temperatures? That is the only way to use Köppen, so that would mean that we'd just have to stop using Köppen, which wouldn't just affect Budapest. Also where is that academic paper? I don't see it

3400:

But still I do not understand why do you think reporting users. Another Hungarian user (long term wiki member) who is not involved, but has the same opinion: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Borsoka&diff=prev&oldid=1194443375

2652:

Since your questions aroused our curiosity, in the near future we will also calculate the Köppen categories for the period 1991-2020 for the territory of Hungary based on our grid point database created using the measurements of HungaroMet (former

2920:

the only usage I know of warm temperate specifically for Cfa is in that article. If you can provide me three or more major cities weatherboxes (let's say above 100,000 in population) for which Knowledge (XXG) uses the term warm temperate for Cfa

1870:

I think man made microlimates in cities with lot of stone surfaces should also be considered, and should be corrected with the neighboring climates, otherwise it can show very different values depending on the place of the probes within even 100

2774:

You also keep asserting and reasserting phrases with no bearing for Knowledge (XXG) policies and guidelines (why, in terms of Knowledge (XXG) rules/guidelines, is Budapest being humid subtropical "nonsense", especially when equally cold-winter

2607:

For the second letter, we have to look at precipitation. It can not be s, as its dry season is not in summer. It can not be w, as it does not have 10 times more precipitation in its wettest month than its driest month. Therefore it has to be

1115:

2944:" then accept the standard meteorological practice for Budapest as the climate is described by experts for years and do not make your own research based on a table reassigning into a new zone which does not describe the situation correctly. 2023:

No it is not a common name. As I cited SOME use it, but even not by Köppen. That is why I rewrote it in the article to the version what is in the cited source says C: Temperate fa, fb Hot summer, Warm summer. No any conclusion on humidity.

2779:

being humid subtropical is fine?) ; this derails the conversation, which should be about what Budapest is in Köppen, not the truth value of the Köppen classification (which is not what this encyclopedia is for). Also see the 'pyramid' at

2703:

zone humid subtropical on Knowledge (XXG), with nearly no exceptions (see the example cities I provided to you above). You may want to change that, but we can not do that just for Budapest; please take that dispute away from here and to

3134:

I did not say Köppen is fringe, morover Köppen does not use those terms. I said only that Hungary would be "subtropical" country I found that term is fringe, by good faith, as I am a local Hungarian person I never ever heard about this

4001:

Those values (avg temperature and precipitation) come from Hungarian meteorological service on behalf of Budapest for 1991-2020 normal values. It does not state the exact location of the station. It may not even come from a single

3474:

Layman note: subtropic classification won't be accepted in the article if at the same time all climate maps and maps of the Köppen system show Budapest's area as continental, and its inhabitants don't feel like they're in Italy.

2615:

For our last letter, we have to look at summer temperature. The city has 7 months of temperatures above 10C, so c is out. The warmest month is warmer than 22C, so b is also out. The weather station provided here is therefore

1123:

926:

a substantial part of the country falls under the Cfa warm-temperate climate zone characterized by a uniform distribution of precipitation and a hot summer climate type. Conversely, according to the Trewartha classification,

3901:

I understand that the photo is important, but as of now many screens can not properly show the caption "Fisherman's Bastion with Matthias Church". Would you be okay with removing a different photo from the infobox instead?

3260:

So far there has been only one data table and that indicated a Cfa classification (or Do regarding Trewartha scheme). We have two more tables in the specific climate article and those show Dfa or Cfa/Dfa border. (Do/Dc in

719:

on the Köppen classification do; and on Knowledge (XXG) we care about reliable sources, not about editor opinion. The most recent common standard for Köppen thresholds, that of Beck et. al, defines a subtropical climate

2556:

and many more), you would need to argue for a general change. For now, can we agree on the fact that Budapest is now Cfa, and that we should call Cfa humid subtropical climate unless/until you get a new consensus on

738:

Budapest satisfies all three, and therefore it is subtropical per the Köppen classification. An oceanic climate would have had summers below 22C, and a continental climate would have had winters below freezing.

2223:

true that it is so far in the mainlad from coast as it is possible in chine or USA. Also you are pushin POV on its talkpage that the page is "intended to be a Koppen page" and no others has the same opinion.

839:

I don't know what classification Hungarian Knowledge (XXG) uses, but most iterations of Trewartha (the second most popular climate classification) would by now also consider Budapest oceanic, not continental.

714:

It also definitely is how it works. On Knowledge (XXG), it is not up to me what a city's climate is. If I was to make a climate classification, I would personally never call Budapest "humid subtropical", but

153: 3921:, yes I see, so I removed one and readded below. Btw I think all images at the page are not the best quality, I see already many much more better photos from the city, probably those images are not free. 2091:

I also see Hungary is Dfa and Dfb according to the Köppen maps, why should we ingore the colors? (I see just very minor areas with different color, even majority of Budapest is Dfb and Dfa in those maps.

2451:

No it does not. Köppen created a climate class called "humid temperate climate with hot summers", but calling that climate class (Cfa) by humid subtropical has become more common than the original name.

1047:; this text does not support your point. The latter text you emphasized is Trewartha (note the "conversely"), in which Hungary is oceanic in Budapest and other warmer places, and continental otherwise. 3041:

Thank you for your comments; I believe we need to keep this discussion more focused, however. I believe there are three pertinent questions that need to be answered (hopefully not missing anything):

4146: 2596:

For our first letter, we have to first establish that the area is not arid (B), and with 532mm of precipitation, the climate is above the aridity threshold for this temperature. That gets rid of B.

4087:(that you participated in, by the way) that came to this consensus wording. Humid temperate refers inclusively to humid subtropical (per Köppen) and oceanic (per Trewartha), without writing both. 3728:

territory if left unchecked. I’ll start the RfC in the next 7 days (though if the RfC rejects the proposal we’d have to revert). For now we can do this for Budapest. Is the following wording okay?

3149:

use those terms (what I found fringe) and why not enough just use the official Köppen numbers. Do you think all Hungarian users are wrong or deserve ANI just because they does not understand this?

645: 2763:; we can not simply change a name for Budapest and leave it humid subtropical for equally cold-winter Cfa-class cities across the globe; that would seriously harm readability and consistency. 2751:

It is not arbitrary (though I understand why you don't think it is ideal). As I've shown you many times (look at the links I've shown you above), plenty of reliable sources refer to Köppen's

2042:. If humid subtropical is not the most common name; start a discussion on the parent article first. The consensus at this point is that it is and that's why the article is named that way. 4131: 2188:

I think it is not a "bad faith" as a local Hungarian person do not understand why Hungary would be a "subtropical" country. Come to Hungary, ask people about this, they will laughing.

1957:

About the accuracy of the data, you can change the values if you find your source to be more accurate, but with an average January temperature of 0C exactly the lede should then read:

1108:

not E, because its warmest month is above 10C. Therefore it can only be C or D. With a January temperature of 1.4C, the city stays above the freezing mark and therefore is considered

3280:

normals are an urban phenomenon. The attempts being made here are to avoid calling Budapest “humid subtropical”. That seems impossible if a more general change is not implemented on

1423:

I know what I am seeing in the map what is the provided reference in the article. And the provided ref, the image, where Hungary is blue Dfb does not support the "subtropical" text.

3520:

are readily accepted as humid subtropical on Knowledge (XXG); why all of this just for Budapest? Which Knowledge (XXG) policy/guideline would apply to Budapest and not to New York?

842:

It's not by my choice that this is how it is. We follow sources; and the most popular climate classification is Köppen. I've made calls to diversify climate classifications over at

2278:, city with 2 million people also very big with many different weathers, for example Buda has mountains and Pest is flat, Buda is always more cold than Pest. (personal experience) 2238: 4151: 4181: 2247: 1554:

I also did not find on any Hungarian website that Hungary would be "subtropical", please provide any modern reliable academic sources which claim that "Hungary is subtropical".

2847:

or somewhere related and try to get consensus there. I do not agree with using old data simply for one city with no reason other than what exists everywhere else on the globe.

2982:

Classifying the climate type inside a classification scheme is not Original Research, you might have misunderstood how Original research differs from routine calculation.

2924:(so no oceanic or Mediterranean climates), I will be convinced of calling Budapest a warm temperate climate. Otherwise, doing it for Budapest only would cause confusion. 206: 2823:

classification region. First Budapest will not have suddenly have different vegetable just because a 100 year old tempeature critera goes above a few tenth of Celsiuses.

2737:

Then this is an arbitrary naming refering to Köppen, because Köppen does not use "humid subtropical" term. Why should we add this nonsense name in the Budapest article?

828:

The map on the subtropics article is based on the intersection of Troll-Paffen and Köppen climate classifications; and therefore is also not best practice as borderline

4121: 387: 298: 3983:

So where are the normal values from? The weatherbox now gives 0.0C in the coldest month and 22.5C in the hottest month. That's the same as Pestszentlőrinc as seen in

2708:. In fact, if you agree to let that part of the dispute go temporarily and focus on whether Budapest has a Cfa climate, I can start the discussion over there instead. 1101:

issue. I've already told you why we tend not to use maps when weather station data is available. But what we can do is calculate in detail using station data and the

3683:

continental since that’s how Atalay et. al. classifies it, and link to a page that says continental climates need to have subfreezing averages in at least one month

3675:

has an oceanic climate according to local literature, but the climate page says that oceanic climates need to not have dry summers? For this change to be realistic,

2888:

use also its criteria, but not Köppen. Trewartha's criteria is to have at least 8 months with a mean temperature greater than 10 °C, which is not true for Budapest.

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even in the FAQ part of the talk page) that this was the consensus way of dealing with this in New York City and other such articles. How is Budapest different?

1463:

does not show those “subtropical” details? I really do not understand, and still I say no any local resident will confirm that Budapest would be “subtropical”.

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For the third question I think we need consensus at a broader scale. There has always been objections about the (humid subtropical) term for the Cfa subtype.

2106:

Because the maps are made with older climate normals and have a fixed resolution unlike weather stations which represent a spot, as I've told you many times.

1482:

provided to you with the Beck source. According to those rules the weather station given in the article is Cfa, which is most often called humid subtropical.

659:

It used to be, in pre-industrial times, but now its coldest month is 1.4 degrees C, making it humid subtropical. A similar thing has happened to many cities,

4141: 4136: 4176: 4116: 3425:"Budapest has a borderline humid continental and humid subtropical climate." is a PUSHPOV you wrote in to that article, so it is not really a good argument. 2958:

Standard meteorological practice? Which one? I'm not doing "my own research"; I'm applying the rules of Köppen for a weatherbox; that's usually considered

1036:

type. Conversely, according to the Trewartha classification, Hungary is classified under the continental climate type, characterized by long warm seasons.

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While I believe a climate chart and Köppen rules to be enough sourcing... even your own source says this. Met.hu does not use the exact word subtropical

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to no avail, but whatever we do has to be sourced by something, and ideally a systematic climate classification. I've sort of danced around this in the

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a "fringe theory" is nonsensical. It is by far the most commonly used climate classification internationally. If it makes any difference, no one from

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At this point I see no other solution other than opening a discussion at the Weather WikiProject, calling interested editors to discuss our dispute.

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I didn’t say to change it only for Budapest. Any city that is In Group C of Koppen but not in Group C of Trewartha is better to be called temperate.

727:

Its coldest month averaging between 0C and 18C (sometimes -3C is also used, though this would put Budapest deeper into the subtropical zone anyway).

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New York is next to the ocean and still has higher seasonal temp differences than Budapest, they both have chilly winters but still above freezing

2239:

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41597-023-02549-6/MediaObjects/41597_2023_2549_Fig1_HTML.png?as=webp

4171: 2525: 1879:, the humid subtropical climate near Budapest is an urban heat island. NYC has the same phenomenon, and it has also shifted climate zones. See 1524:

Translated Hungarian Wiki: I think the local Hungarian people know better the local climate than any fringe tropical speculations, they claim:

691:

And it’s not how it works. Not every continental place with winters not as cold as before, is suddenly Humid subtropical like Sydney Australia.

2723:" The stable version (as in before the dispute) was humid subtropical, correct or not. You should not change this before the dispute is over. 2520:

I cannot see the "subtropical" term. Cfa = temperate, without dry season, hot summer. If we refer Köppen we should use the proper Köppen term.

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However, it is most definitely not appropriate to use personal opinion (or old or poorly made maps) as sources for climate classification.

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According to 1991-2020 normals Budapest has no monthly daily mean below freezing. So not continental in Koppen classification nor Trewartha.

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The European Climate Adaptation Platform Climate-ADAPT is a partnership between the European Commission and the European Environment Agency.

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We are just running in circles Uness, calling it temperate rather than subtropical is the best decision in my opinion and also adding it’s

3406:

What is your plan? Thinking to report 10 million Hungarians in Hungary who do not understand why their own country would be "subtropical"?

1933:

Well most of Hungary is not subtropical, but the weather data provided here is humid subtropical according to the official rules of Köppen.

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On your second suggestion; that would create very grave problems considering the Köppn-centricity of climate pages. What will we do when

2005:

in Köppen-related literature is "humid subtropical climate". If you want to claim that a different phrase needs to be used, take that to

1295: 3058:

3) If not, is a change to "warm temperate climate" that is only for Budapest realistic, or does this need consensus at a broader scale?

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Hungarian wiki does not matter for English wiki. Sources do. Let's move to the WikiProject if we started a conversation there as well.

1803:. You've made your point that maps (which are all but one from one source) show something different and I explained why that would be. 3391: 850:

article I've created by summarizing how different climate classifications conflict, maybe something similar can be done in more pages.

2474:

is humid subtropical; has winters of around 16C. Similarly, Budapest now has a winter mean of 1C; in the range of humid subtropical.

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specific month avearge in the period. In Budapest year by year the coldest month is different, can be December, January, February.

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specific month avearge in the period. In Budapest year by year the coldest month is different, can be December, January, February.

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I ask again already many times, please provide us any modern reliable academic source which clearly say "Hungary is subtropical"?

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version", so I rolled back the page manually to discover when happened that change, and I see recently the climate was not that

1531:

https://hu-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/Magyarország_éghajlata?_x_tr_sl=hu&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=hu&_x_tr_pto=wapp

1437:

As I pointed out to you repeatedly: because the maps are made with older data and do not represent small scale phenomena (like

3429:

I also specifically said that I understood a report to ANI to be unwise on Joe Roe’s page, so I think you misunderstood that.

2863:

Third Cfa does not say anything about humidity it says: "uniform distribution of precipitation and a hot summer climate type".

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No, Because it is called temperate rather than subtropical in sources(as Cfa is sometimes called temperate than subtropical).

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https://st4.depositphotos.com/6121818/24318/i/1600/depositphotos_243182576-stock-photo-budapest-hungary-aerial-view-snowy.jpg

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and if the winters are not cold enough but summers are still not too hot then it would be oceanic and not Humid subtropical!

3257:

We wouldn’t pick only one classification if we find different figures for different stations across the urban or metro area.

2218:

There is no such consensus you are referring. Or please show it where is it written. There is an article which is about the

1897:

If our opinion does not matter, could you show me any modern reliable academic source which claim "Hungary is subtropical"?

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warmest month is above 22C, it is Cfa not Cfb, so a humid subtropical climate. End of discussion per the sources I provided.

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Second Köppen classification has nothing to do with man made environment as the vegetable is artificial in a city mainly.

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But this article you referred to does not state that Budapest is continental. It shows smaller cities having Df climate.

3613:

Cf humid temperate or simply temperate because not all the locations are actually humid(like Tbilisi or this Budapest).

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Humid subtropical is not originally a Köppen expression, but is commonly used with Köppen; in fact the entire article

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Cfa classification means the warmest month averages above 22, which is the case for Budapest and Bratislava and Lyon.

135: 2432:"Köppen himself never used this term. The humid subtropical climate classification was officially created under the 3876:

Talk:Köppen climate classification#RfC: Generalizing climate type descriptions when classification systems conflict

1395:

In the article, your Köppen ref is a map where Hungary is Dfb: The Beck link does not say any "subtropical" thing.

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https://kep.cdn.indexvas.hu/welove-media/15/emlekek-arrol-a-bizonyos-1987-es-budapesti-hideg-telrol.exact1980w.jpg

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It is assuming bad faith to assume I am POV-pushing for something so far away from ideological/contentious POVs.

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You are mixing me up with the person I was arguing with. I argued for greater climate classification diversity.

1691:

Some scientists call Cfa classification Humid Subtropical but not Koppen(nor Hungarian meteo service I suppose).

225: 1880: 1626:, an oceanic district. In most cases Köppen does not allow for zone fluidity; the borders have to be somewhere. 2827:

You're right in the sense that transitional climates are difficult things, but does this not equally apply to

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https://colore.hu/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Budapestnevei2_Rozsadomb_shutterstock_1392989171-1024x683.jpg

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https://3einternational.hu/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/116089782_905001009978317_6800126813310285776_o.jpg

2390:"This climate type is found on the eastern sides of the continents between 20° and 35° N and S latitude." 2143:"Budapest has a borderline humid continental and humid subtropical climate." is a PUSHPOV you wrote in to 1610:

is barely humid subtropical (in fact it's less than 0.1C away from being oceanic) per Köppen and most of

55: 3926: 3544: 3411: 3243:. I've told you dozens of times that we can not change established naming convention just for one city. 3226: 3196: 3182: 2742: 2683: 2659: 2580: 2510: 2442: 2403: 2331: 2299: 2283: 2266: 2237:

I see this is a Köppen map from 2023, indeed in that map I see Hungary in Dfa and Cfa (climate change?)

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cloudy; 52 hours a month is less than 1/5th of possible sunshine for December, and is equal in hours to

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

351:

on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

3965:

The current weatherbox here does not collect data from Pestszentlőrinc except maybe some temp extremes.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Köppen_climate_classification&diff=prev&oldid=1141318523

1535:

Here the Cf: Subtropical Humid is very very far from Hungary and Hungary is Dc: Temperate Continental:

922:"Hungary's climate can be classified according to two prominent global climate classification systems. 70: 1377:

We use weatherboxes, not maps to talk about city climates on Knowledge (XXG). So please, you have the

1305: 1296:

https://cdn.nwmgroups.hu/s/img/i/1704/20170419havazas-hoeses-budapest-ho10.jpg?w=800&h=534&t=5

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https://www.met.hu/en/eghajlat/magyarorszag_eghajlata/altalanos_eghajlati_jellemzes/altalanos_leiras/

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https://www.budapestinfo.hu/storage/media-library/4490/vbOwq9j5x2NEEdN8zHdf28dydGDwd6eEXQH2baK6.jpg

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Sorry but no any Hungarian know or will say that Hungary is subtropical, it is very fringe theory.

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Cs is Mediterranean or dry-summer temperate the latter is better for cities in tropical highlands.

2781: 2768: 2669: 2645: 2107: 1340:, Budapest is absolutely subtropical, no matter how snowy it is. I could also find many photos of 615: 4092: 4044: 3992: 3951: 3907: 3883: 3806: 3779: 3748: 3688: 3665: 3595: 3559: 3525: 3507: 3434: 3289: 3248: 3208: 3200: 3119: 3063: 2967: 2929: 2789: 2728: 2630: 2566: 2479: 2457: 2418: 2373: 2345: 2313: 2207: 2169: 2132: 2115: 2047: 2014: 1966: 1888: 1808: 1783: 1634: 1487: 1453: 1414: 1386: 1354: 1273: 1189: 1143: 1068: 899: 858: 744: 668: 230: 3725: 2840: 1769: 1591:

What "the local Hungarian people" say is irrelevant; "the local New Yorkers" around me say that

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Or we can do it based on what the respective country’s Meteo agency calls the region’s climate.

3353:

https://funzine.hu/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/20130911-normafa-kilatas-a-normafatol-telen11.jpg

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You cannot compare New York with Hungary, New York locates in a different continent at the sea.

1260:

Furthermore, the descriptive statement that you provide is inaccurate. Winters in Budapest are

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Budapest has a temperate climate with hot summers and chilly winters and continental features.

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Snowfall is not a good parameter here, since a lot of snow can also fall in locations such as

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Hungary and Budapest is clearly continental, we need to keep the consistency between articles:

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You can argue about that further, that's unrelated to Budapest's specific case. Take that to

1997:

In English-language Knowledge (XXG), it was decided (years ago at this point), that the most

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The map does not take late 2010s into account which we’re among the warmest years on record.

1787: 1566: 1464: 1424: 1396: 1364: 1323: 1310: 1084: 1017: 868: 815: 348: 227: 3664:, as that is a more general venue). All of these cities already have consensus, especially 3099: 2908:

climates humid subtropical (yes, even with 7 or less months of temperatures above 10C, e.g

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As you can there are many Köppen maps in many reliable website and Hungary is Dfa and Dfb.

3502:, and this type of generalization is exactly why we do not classify climates by feeling. 1950: 1912: 1853: 1667:

Clear skies are for Beijing, not Budapest with less than 90 hours of sunshine in January.

1286:

https://budapestimages.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/20210112142832-378df11e-800x533.jpg

829: 716: 2590: 2491: 1911:"These all mean the same thing": That is your opinion, and I have different. Also it is 1316:

https://m.blog.hu/pr/prusi/image/2013-01-12%20nagy%20havazas/20130112_illusztracio_5.jpg

977:

is Cfa and Cwa is not Hungary. So I really do not understand what do you see on the map.

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Like (Portland, Oregon has a temperate climate with dry summers and oceanic influence).

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https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/koppen-climate-classification-system/

568: 442: 2326:. I cannot see "humid subtropical" term. So yours source does not support your claim. 1363:

In the Köppen map Hungary is clealry Dfa and Dfb = humid continental. I am not blind.

769:

I am Hungarian and Hungary is clearly not a subtropical country but a continental one.

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If you’re writing Cfa you mean humid subtropical. This is the accurate climate type.

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https://www.hungarycoupon.com/sites/default/files/images/product/budapest-south_0.jpg

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city. Should we stop using Köppen in cities? Or is it just Budapest that bothers you?

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as "humid subtropical", and we adopt (and have adopted for years) this scheme in the

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It depends on the source of course. But most equate Cfa with humid subtropical. See

1619: 3652:

On your first suggestion, sure, but I believe that belongs to a discussion over at

3490:

The maps do not show the newest data. Station data does. How many times do I (and @

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By the way a few continental locations may barely receive any snow like Ulaanbator.

3191:"and I see a big snow... in that allegedly "subtropical" country" See main article 2649: 1615: 3365: 1510:

I think we need follow the sources not by sourceless POV speculative calculations

3176:

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Budapest&diff=next&oldid=975010444

3164:

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Budapest&diff=prev&oldid=931162653

1381:

resource; demonstrate to me how this weatherbox could be interpreted as Dfa/Dfb.

2892:

I will not argue on this page about the applicability of "humid subtropical" to

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550mm in subtropical location is not necessarily semi-arid, see locations with

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This user with no history added recently Budapest to the "subtropical" section

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which shows the same borderline but calls it oceanic instead of subtropical.

3495: 3102:

until any of us gain consensus one way or another at a larger discussion at

2832: 1959:"Budapest has a borderline humid continental and humid subtropical climate." 1937:"These all mean the same thing": That is your opinion, and I have different. 3535:

climate of those cities, Madrid, Athen, Ankara are different than Budapest.

2912:) on Knowledge (XXG). You can contest that over there if you want, as well. 2867:

As I have told you before, the "humid" in humid subtropical refers to high

2589:

Köppen uses thresholds and mutually exclusive rules, as you've seen in the

1015:"Hungary has a moderate climate with a significant continental influence " 1007:

https://climate-adapt.eea.europa.eu/en/countries-regions/countries/hungary

794:

Areas of the world that feature a continental climate, according to Köppen

3760:

The wording is nice. Mentioning the urban area would make it even better.

2942:

I explain stuff that has been standard Knowledge (XXG) practice for years

2275: 1622:, in southern Istanbul, is humid subtropical, yet less than 30km away is 944: 587: 527: 24: 1599:(and I'd agree with them), but Köppen disagrees. Also subtropical does 1521:

map Hungary is clearly Dfb = continental, I can say again I am not blind

1506:

Hi, your new ref also does not say Hungary would be "humid subtropical"

1291:

https://sportagvalaszto.hu/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/330-1518760056.jpg

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https://hess.copernicus.org/articles/11/1633/2007/hess-11-1633-2007.pdf

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Cold clear sky winters and warmer wet summers. Definitely continental

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Sorry, but nobody know in Hungary, that Hungary would be "subtropical"

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Yes, though I’ve already pointed that out multiple times, and when @

2639:

I wrote a letter to the Hungarian meterology service, they answered:

1336:

Not by how I would personally define it, absolutely not. But by the

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This is also not true for Hungary, Hungary is cold in the winter.

1306:

https://s.24.hu/app/uploads/2015/02/havazas-budapesten-1024x665.jpg

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and Pest is a 2 unified city, they have a total different climate.

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To eliminate the risk of an edit war, do not revert away from the

2575:

Where do you see Budapest is Cfa? I can see just very mixed maps.

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But still I cannot see on that reference "humid subtropical" term.

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Yes, but not sure how to integrate that into the first sentence.

3498:) are basically as cold as Budapest in winter. Italy is not just 3203:

describes the country's climate as "temperate seasonal climate".

2673:

The most frequent climate type according to the Köppen method is

3382:

https://abouthungary.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/budapest.png

2836: 1994:, but it very clearly states that Cfa climate exists in Hungary. 1203: 989:

https://www.britannica.com/science/Koppen-climate-classification

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https://rmets.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/joc.6859

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https://rmets.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/joc.6859

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Peel, M. C.; Finlayson, B. L.; McMahon, T. A. (18 July 2010).

3370:

Stadion on the flat Pest and Buda mountains in the background:

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mean tropical; as you claim at "fringe tropical speculations".

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for others to comment on the issue, if you would prefer that.

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Beck et. al. map does not use), Budapest is humid subtropical.

610: 509: 239: 231: 15: 3590:? Would that not cause consistency issues with other cities? 2767:

potentially change it) a few hours ago. I beg of you, please

2387:

https://www.britannica.com/science/humid-subtropical-climate

1002:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41597-023-02549-6/figures/1

376: 3239:

About the naming convention, if you want it changed, go to

3220:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41597-023-02549-6/tables/1

2699:

In terms of phrasing, as I've told you before; we call the

2324:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41597-023-02549-6/tables/1

2256:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41597-023-02549-6/tables/1

2184:

Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Hungary#Climate of Hungary

2180:

Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Hungary#Climate of Hungary

1848:

Characteristics described in Continental climate fits best.

1840:

defines the climate based on Köppen: see the discussion on

1508:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41597-023-02549-6/tables/1

1097:

Okay, let's do the math, because this is slowly becoming a

939: 3494:) have to say this? Also parts of Italy (e.g parts of the 3130:

User talk:Joe Roe#Question about dispute resolution venues

2625:

You can verify this process using the source if you want.

2385:

sent me the third source which does not support his claim

2077:

is a good method to categorize cities with microclimate.

1550:

just from only 50km!!! from Bratislava is not subtropical!

3869:

RfC on climate descriptions & appropriate terminology

2505:

If we refer Köppen we should use the proper Köppen term.

1311:

https://nlc.p3k.hu/uploads/2021/01/d_sos20191202012-1.jpg

929:

Hungary is classified under the continental climate type,

763:

Hi, I really do not understand why would be Budapest is

3679:

needed to be more fruitful. Otherwise, we’d be calling

3175: 3163: 1736:

fits best. Also there is a question by the definition:

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Official Hungarian wesbite by Hungarian Tourism agency:

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first referenced the self Wiki link to the Köppen map

160: 3735:

climate with hot summers and chilly winters (Köppen:

3199:, and snowfall is not that rare in them. The article 2492:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6207062/

1268:, despite the latter city's more northerly latitude. 626: 4147:

B-Class WikiProject Cities national capital articles

3357: 2396:"The coldest month is usually quite mild (5–12 °C )" 2254:

said the map is wrong, and he referenced that chart

454:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 339:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 4132:

Knowledge (XXG) level-4 vital articles in Geography

3849:"World Map of Köppen-Geiger climate classification" 3720:Fair, but I still think this merits an RfC over at 3098:; can we at least agree to revert this page to its 2146:that article, so it is not really a good argument. 174: 1282:Winter Budapest images, is this the "subtropical"? 2540:called humid subtropical on Knowledge (XXG) (see 2248:File:Köppen-Geiger Climate Classification Map.png 1478:you this source on the talk page numerous times). 3403:"POV push" means "pushing certain point of view" 2650:https://ttk.elte.hu/dstore/document/856/book.pdf 2038:"Humid" here refers to high precipitation, a la 33:for general discussion of the article's subject. 4182:Pages translated from Hungarian Knowledge (XXG) 3366:https://www.legifoto.com/files/varosliget13.jpg 1584:"speculative POV" (also, POV of what exactly?). 800:https://hu.wikipedia.org/Magyarország_éghajlata 1875:Yes! That's also one reason why the map shows 1581:this weather station alluded to in the article 780:https://hu.wikipedia.org/Magyarország#Éghajlat 644:It is not subtropical, but humid continental. 3697:This can be often solved with proper wording. 2250:as reference. I said I see Dfa and Dfb, then 1409:Do you know how Köppen types are calculated? 630: 8: 4152:WikiProject Cities national capital articles 4035:I see, then I'll change the main station at 3677:Talk: Humid subtropical climate#A suggestion 1741:abovementioned set of conditions fulfilled). 1083:here Hungary also Dc: Temperate Continental 997:https://www.nature.com/articles/sdata2018214 758:Areas of the world with subtropical climates 4122:Knowledge (XXG) vital articles in Geography 2759:article. If you want to change that, go to 2668:2020 modern academic source about Hungary: 2501:I cannot see the "subtropical" term. Cfa = 1158:NYC and Milan are far wetter than Budapest. 993:Scientific journal use the same Köppen map: 711:Where? Definitely not in the climate chart. 385:This article is supported by the project's 3757:Got it. You can start the RfC at any time. 3586:But why here, but not in any other city, @ 2503:temperate, without dry season, hot summer. 1820:this why it is not currently continental. 1595:should not be in the same climate zone as 576:Here are some tasks awaiting attention: 400: 282: 2900:. The reality is, by now, Budapest has a 2879:. Other climate classifications, such as 3236:can verify that, we'll also include Dfa. 1768: 1751:Continental_climate#Neighboring climates 1446:Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Weather 968:and Hungary is Dfa and Dfb in the map = 3839: 3168:IP edit changed to that "subtropical" " 3020:.Hungary is cool to cold in Trewartha. 3016:Not simply cold in some standards. See 2292:Hungarian wiki about Budapest climate: 1786:: continental. Again most Dfa and Dfb. 1618:are), but your argument is fallacious. 733:At least one month averaging above 22C. 709:"No… coldest month average is below 0!" 677:No… coldest month average is below 0! 402: 284: 243: 4177:Knowledge (XXG) pages with to-do lists 4117:Knowledge (XXG) level-4 vital articles 4065:Writing humid temperate isn’t clear. 2940:And I am LISTENING too, when you say " 1161:550mm for a subtropical climate, means 945:https://csodasmagyarorszag.hu/eghajlat 730:At least 3 months averaging above 10C. 3516:Also equally cold-winter cities like 2896:climates. That discussion belongs to 2883:, also use this expression similarly. 2430:this article contradicts Brtiannica. 646:2A00:801:400:B024:CCFB:7494:1F1A:1B18 7: 3114:/climates from weatherboxes issue)? 2692:There are parts of Hungary that are 1512:Knowledge (XXG):No original research 1138:threshold, 0C, Budapest is oceanic. 959:An updated Köppen–Geiger climate map 448:This article is within the scope of 333:This article is within the scope of 4142:B-Class WikiProject Cities articles 4137:B-Class vital articles in Geography 3878:. Interested editors can chime in. 3722:Talk: Köppen climate classification 3312:,which are undoubtedly subtropical. 2845:Talk: Köppen climate classification 2470:Usually also does not mean always. 924:Based on the Köppen classification, 468:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Hungary 273:It is of interest to the following 23:for discussing improvements to the 3662:Talk:Köppen climate classification 3108:Talk:Köppen climate classification 1579:The source does indeed claim that 361:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Cities 14: 3724:. It could very easily fall into 3162:Another Hungarian user reverted: 1961:as it is right on the threshold. 1614:is not (though some areas of the 908:Hungarian meteroglogical service: 50:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome! 3570:Trewartha climate classification 3358:https://hu.wikipedia.org/Normafa 3128:I have a comment regarding this 3018:Trewartha climate classification 2434:Trewartha climate classification 1542:It is very strange that you say 1537:Trewartha climate classification 1349:course, but Köppen should stay. 1081:Trewartha climate classification 1057:Trewartha climate classification 1051:climate using weatherboxes, see 614: 567: 517: 435: 425: 404: 320: 310: 286: 253: 244: 213: 45:Click here to start a new topic. 4167:Top-importance Hungary articles 3654:Talk: Humid subtropical climate 3241:Talk: Humid subtropical climate 3104:Talk: Humid subtropical climate 2761:Talk: Humid subtropical climate 2706:Talk: Humid subtropical climate 2559:Talk: Humid subtropical climate 2340:I answered on the WikiProject. 2007:Talk: Humid subtropical climate 844:Talk: Humid subtropical climate 488:This article has been rated as 4127:B-Class level-4 vital articles 3607:Cw would be monsoon temperate. 3282:Talk:Humid subtropical climate 2898:Talk:Humid subtropical climate 1856:. Our opinion does not matter. 1842:Talk:humid subtropical climate 1130:, a humid subtropical climate. 1103:criteria given by Beck et. al. 1: 4172:All WikiProject Hungary pages 3851:. The University of Melbourne 2875:". It has nothing to do with 2843:. If it is the former, go to 1775:Köppen climate classification 1338:Köppen climate classification 1228:I absolutely agree with you 1182:Köppen climate classification 1053:Köppen climate classification 966:Köppen climate classification 883:Köppen climate classification 462:and see a list of open tasks. 355:and see a list of open tasks. 42:Put new text under old text. 4157:All WikiProject Cities pages 4084: 3888:00:46, 21 January 2024 (UTC) 3825:17:48, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3811:17:07, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3784:20:57, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3770:18:34, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3753:18:30, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3716:18:18, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3693:18:14, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3648:17:55, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3623:18:15, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3600:17:55, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3582:17:51, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3564:16:59, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3549:16:40, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3530:16:19, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3512:16:12, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3485:15:58, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3439:15:37, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3416:15:16, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3329:14:02, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3294:14:21, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3271:14:08, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3253:13:44, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3231:13:38, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3213:12:26, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3187:11:57, 20 January 2024 (UTC) 3124:09:11, 18 January 2024 (UTC) 3082:06:33, 18 January 2024 (UTC) 3068:00:40, 18 January 2024 (UTC) 3030:19:06, 17 January 2024 (UTC) 2992:19:52, 17 January 2024 (UTC) 2972:17:10, 11 January 2024 (UTC) 2954:16:37, 11 January 2024 (UTC) 2934:17:07, 11 January 2024 (UTC) 2817:16:22, 11 January 2024 (UTC) 2794:14:34, 11 January 2024 (UTC) 2747:14:05, 11 January 2024 (UTC) 2733:12:10, 11 January 2024 (UTC) 2721:during a dispute discussion. 2688:11:58, 11 January 2024 (UTC) 2664:11:55, 11 January 2024 (UTC) 2178:I raised the question here: 2070:19:02, 17 January 2024 (UTC) 1830:18:59, 17 January 2024 (UTC) 1749:Please also see the section 1715:19:55, 17 January 2024 (UTC) 1701:18:58, 17 January 2024 (UTC) 1677:19:47, 17 January 2024 (UTC) 1444:I am also tempted to notify 1216:19:45, 17 January 2024 (UTC) 471:Template:WikiProject Hungary 3218:that term for these codes 2807:. Please accept it. Thanks 2635:19:01, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2585:18:54, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2571:18:32, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2515:18:19, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2484:18:14, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2462:18:17, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2447:18:14, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2423:18:10, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2408:18:05, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2378:17:40, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2350:17:36, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2336:17:31, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2318:17:29, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2304:17:28, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2288:17:24, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2271:17:19, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2233:17:15, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2212:17:20, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2198:17:09, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2174:16:58, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2156:16:40, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2137:17:06, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2120:17:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2102:16:40, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2087:16:28, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2052:17:01, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2034:16:31, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 2019:16:27, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 1987:16:18, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 1971:15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 1929:15:17, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 1907:15:11, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 1893:14:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 1813:14:45, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 1796:14:36, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 1763:14:16, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 1639:12:43, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 1575:11:18, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 1492:22:05, 8 January 2024 (UTC) 1473:21:57, 8 January 2024 (UTC) 1458:21:22, 8 January 2024 (UTC) 1433:19:58, 8 January 2024 (UTC) 1419:19:45, 8 January 2024 (UTC) 1405:18:28, 8 January 2024 (UTC) 1391:18:22, 8 January 2024 (UTC) 1373:17:09, 8 January 2024 (UTC) 1359:16:59, 8 January 2024 (UTC) 1332:15:41, 8 January 2024 (UTC) 1278:23:06, 7 January 2024 (UTC) 1252:21:09, 7 January 2024 (UTC) 1238:21:08, 7 January 2024 (UTC) 1194:22:59, 7 January 2024 (UTC) 1176:21:08, 7 January 2024 (UTC) 1148:15:12, 5 January 2024 (UTC) 1093:14:37, 5 January 2024 (UTC) 1073:14:29, 5 January 2024 (UTC) 1026:14:07, 5 January 2024 (UTC) 904:13:32, 5 January 2024 (UTC) 881:I'm sorry, but calling the 877:13:02, 5 January 2024 (UTC) 863:12:01, 5 January 2024 (UTC) 824:10:42, 5 January 2024 (UTC) 749:01:26, 5 January 2024 (UTC) 704:00:56, 5 January 2024 (UTC) 687:00:54, 5 January 2024 (UTC) 673:21:01, 29 August 2023 (UTC) 654:20:42, 29 August 2023 (UTC) 367:WikiProject Cities articles 364:Template:WikiProject Cities 4198: 4049:21:14, 25 April 2024 (UTC) 4027:20:14, 25 April 2024 (UTC) 4012:20:06, 25 April 2024 (UTC) 3997:19:39, 25 April 2024 (UTC) 3975:18:31, 25 April 2024 (UTC) 3956:17:39, 25 April 2024 (UTC) 1949:Also you claim that it is 494:project's importance scale 388:national capital taskforce 3931:20:36, 2 April 2024 (UTC) 3912:20:24, 2 April 2024 (UTC) 3044:1) Is Budapest's climate 2757:humid subtropical climate 2534:Humid subtropical climate 2428:Humid subtropical climate 2220:Humid subtropical climate 1838:humid subtropical climate 1730:humid subtropical climate 1728:I also do not agree with 975:Humid subtropical climate 970:Humid continental climate 724:) as a climate that has: 487: 420: 384: 305: 281: 80:Be welcoming to newcomers 4162:B-Class Hungary articles 4097:13:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC) 4078:12:50, 13 May 2024 (UTC) 3962:footnote about stations. 3859:– via WikiMedia commons. 2871:. It is the antonym of " 1881:Climate of New York City 940:https://visithungary.com 621:This article contains a 3660:the RfC was started at 3195:. It covers areas with 2711:By the way, please see 4112:B-Class vital articles 3378:Buda left, Pest right: 2917:warm temperate climate 2805:warm temperate climate 2719:status quo ante bellum 2536:; as Cfa climates are 1778: 1502: 1501:Hungary is Dfa and Dfb 1165:cold semi arid climate 960: 795: 759: 381: 75:avoid personal attacks 3362:Pest: flat and warmer 3197:Mediterranean climate 2904:climate, and we call 1772: 1546:is "subtropical" but 1500: 1200:Mediterranean climate 958: 793: 757: 380: 267:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 260:level-4 vital article 207:Auto-archiving period 100:Neutral point of view 2881:Holdridge life zones 2040:Holdridge life zones 105:No original research 4037:Climate of Budapest 3985:Climate of Budapest 3666:Talk: New York City 3397:every single areas. 2591:Beck et. al. source 2413:humid subtropical. 2162:assuming good faith 1734:Continental climate 980:Natgeo, Britannica, 848:Climate of Istanbul 813:Continental climate 592:History of Budapest 451:WikiProject Hungary 3319:climate.(Cfa/Dfa). 3201:climate of Hungary 3051:2) Is calling all 2855:Again, applies to 2393:Budapest is at 47° 2322:Could you answer? 1784:Climate of Hungary 1779: 1503: 1439:urban heat islands 961: 796: 760: 594:into 2 paragraphs. 557:Updated 2008-04-26 382: 347:and various other 336:WikiProject Cities 269:content assessment 86:dispute resolution 47: 2877:relative humidity 1877:humid continental 1844:for more on that. 1045:humid subtropical 637: 636: 607: 606: 601: 600: 508: 507: 504: 503: 500: 499: 399: 398: 395: 394: 299:National capitals 238: 237: 66:Assume good faith 43: 4189: 3861: 3860: 3858: 3856: 3844: 3673:Portland, Oregon 1782:Parent article: 618: 611: 588:Budapest#History 571: 564: 563: 558: 521: 520: 510: 476: 475: 474:Hungary articles 472: 469: 466: 445: 440: 439: 438: 429: 422: 421: 416: 408: 401: 369: 368: 365: 362: 359: 330: 325: 324: 323: 314: 307: 306: 301: 290: 283: 266: 257: 256: 249: 248: 240: 232: 218: 217: 208: 179: 178: 164: 95:Article policies 16: 4197: 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